Should we hire Luntz...

[itshappening]

can't help but think his push buttons and research could be useful for Schiff's daily show appearence ;) I think he would score well with democrats and independents and i'd be really interested to see that research

shame Luntz is such a shill....

[Cowlesy]

With what money haha --- we can barely fund a longtime ironman forum member riding a bike across the united states speaking out for freedom for the entire summer.

[heavenlyboy34]

lol...Luntz should be volunteering his services to us-we're more influential and numerous than he is! ;) hehe

[itshappening]

With what money haha --- we can barely fund a longtime ironman forum member riding a bike across the united states speaking out for freedom for the entire summer.

I agree with you we need to do more for LR

[Matt Collins]

No, we should hire someone REPUTABLE which is something Luntz is not.

[Feelgood]

Fuck you Frank!!!

[Conza88]

We shouldn't hire anyone, because we don't need them.

We've got the truth assholes, you need spin doctors for lies.

[FSP-Rebel]

Fuck you Frank!!!
Blow me, Frank.

[Matt Collins]

We shouldn't hire anyone, because we don't need them.

We've got the truth assholes, you need spin doctors for lies.People won't eat asparagus even if it is the most healthy thing one can eat. It must have cheese, or salt, or sugar, or some other flavorings, or served alongside another dish.


In other words, a poll will tell us WHAT specific groups of people want to ingest. Then it's up to us to get a message to them that they can understand and be receptive of (without of course compromising principles). We can't force feed them asparagus, we have to figure out how to make it sound appitizing so that they'd be willing to at least try it!

[Conza88]

People won't eat asparagus even if it is the most healthy thing one can eat. It must have cheese, or salt, or sugar, or some other flavorings, or served alongside another dish.

Because they are following their self interest. They have a high time preference. They prefer tasty food now, as opposed to long term health benefits. And the collective prescription doesn't fit.


In other words, a poll will tell us WHAT specific groups of people want to ingest. Then it's up to us to get a message to them that they can understand and be receptive of (without of course compromising principles). We can't force feed them asparagus, we have to figure out how to make it sound appitizing so that they'd be willing to at least try it!

There is no target market essentially for Liberty. In case you haven't noticed, THE FREEDOM MOVEMENT BRINGS PEOPLE TOGETHER. "Ron Paul: we have... etc etc etc." ;)

The Remnant will come to us. And I'm willing to prescribe the very bold notion that NO MSM advertisement undertaken by the Ron Paul campaign essentially converted ANYONE.

Common sense wins and you don't need to hire a frank luntz to get it.

[FrankRep]

Hire Luntz??

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/bernanke1.png

[Matt Collins]

Because they are following their self interest.And that's what people are supposed to do!
But we need to show them that the liberty movement is in their interest.


And I'm willing to prescribe the very bold notion that NO MSM advertisement undertaken by the Ron Paul campaign essentially converted ANYONE.and that would be an incorrect assumption. I saw it first hand that MSM advertisements had an effect locally where I live.


Common sense wins and you don't need to hire a frank luntz to get it.If common sense wins, then why don't we have President Paul? :rolleyes:

[Conza88]

And that's what people are supposed to do!
But we need to show them that the liberty movement is in their interest.

Congratulations. That was precisely my point. And you are far more efficient & effective addressing those open or interested in specific liberty campaigns, that paying vast sums for general, pointless, MSM coverage that gets lost and forgotten when the next American Idol episode comes on.


and that would be an incorrect assumption. I saw it first hand that MSM advertisements had an effect locally where I live.

Elaborate / prove.


If common sense wins, then why don't we have President Paul? :rolleyes:

Don't take what I said out of context, thanks. Were by you totally distort its meaning.

In regards to marketing. Common sense wins. You don't need a fcken frank luntz. You take issues that are relevant at the moment, you offer the liberty truth position, you go advertise to those that are interested in that position, magazines, internet, radio shows etc dedicated to that audience.

It's not fcken rocket science, and you thus don't need a retarded frank luntz.

[UnReconstructed]

I wouldnt piss on him if he was on fire

[Matt Collins]

Congratulations. That was precisely my point. And you are far more efficient & effective addressing those open or interested in specific liberty campaigns, that paying vast sums for general, pointless, MSM coverage that gets lost and forgotten when the next American Idol episode comes on. If your goal is to win, then you MUST have the mainstream media, if not on your side, at least not working against you.




Elaborate / prove.We ran a great deal of advertising in Nashville. When I talked to these people who joined the Meetup, many of them told me they heard the commercial and decided to investigate further.


In regards to marketing. Common sense wins. You don't need a fcken frank luntz. You take issues that are relevant at the moment, you offer the liberty truth position, you go advertise to those that are interested in that position, magazines, internet, radio shows etc dedicated to that audience.No, you take issues that the voters care about, and that's what you discuss. But in order to determine what the voters care about you have to take a poll.

The goal of an election isn't to win over the heart and soul of the voter, it's to win over their vote, that's all!



It's not fcken rocket science, and you thus don't need a retarded frank luntz.It isn't rocket science, but IT IS SCIENCE nonetheless. One has to understand metrics to be able to compete in a serious race.

[AdamT]

If he takes spit in the face as payment, then yes we should hire his fat ass.

[Conza88]

If your goal is to win, then you MUST have the mainstream media, if not on your side, at least not working against you.

And congratulations your retarded strategy consisting of just giving them money to advertise doesn't accomplish that at all. *applause* :rolleyes:


We ran a great deal of advertising in Nashville. When I talked to these people who joined the Meetup, many of them told me they heard the commercial and decided to investigate further.

Yeah, local. And what was the advertising about?


No, you take issues that the voters care about, and that's what you discuss. But in order to determine what the voters care about you have to take a poll.

The goal of an election isn't to win over the heart and soul of the voter, it's to win over their vote, that's all!

And here is where you lose with your premise. We are a rEVOLution. The only way to take back America, will be just like the first American Revolution. See: Thomas Paine etc.

The goal of Liberty isn't going to come about through elections, (presidential) but it gives an ideal platform to spread the message. The goal should be to win over the heart and soul of the voter, your target market for that specific issue, then you've got them for god and they continue to investigate Ron Paul and his other issues.

Your short sightedness is where your strategy fails remarkably.


It isn't rocket science, but IT IS SCIENCE nonetheless. One has to understand metrics to be able to compete in a serious race.

Ohhh what TYPE of science! Hint: social sciences. Extra hint: the scientific method fails in the social sciences. See: Keyesianism, Monetarism, Positivism / everything that isn't the Austrian school of Economics.

Your epistemology is flawed. A priori ftw. Essentially, common sense - i.e logical deductions.

[american.swan]

We should hire him and find out how many "libertarians" the US really has and how libertarian they are and from where. And spy on his techniques. ;)

[Elwar]

We could hire Luntz and tell him what results we want to get out of his study, then watch in amazement as his results just happen to coincide with our desired outcome.

Or we could create our own results out of thin air and use a stick figure as our "expert" and have the same outcome.

[Matt Collins]

And congratulations your retarded strategy consisting of just giving them money to advertise doesn't accomplish that at all. What's the highest level of education you possess? How old are you?



The goal of Liberty isn't going to come about through elections, (presidential) but it gives an ideal platform to spread the message. The goal should be to win over the heart and soul of the voter, your target market for that specific issue, then you've got them for god and they continue to investigate Ron Paul and his other issues.

Your short sightedness is where your strategy fails remarkably.Your ignorance is astounding. Anyone who studies politics scientifically will tell you that the only legitimate objective in a campaign is to win votes. Have you ever studied political science?

And if you want to run campaigns with no hope of winning, then you should join the Libertarian Party, they are good at that. In fact almost every campaign they run is an "education campaign".




Ohhh what TYPE of science! Hint: social sciences. Extra hint: the scientific method fails in the social sciences. See: Keyesianism, Monetarism, Positivism / everything that isn't the Austrian school of Economics.
You obviously don't understand what science is; it's a methodology. It's a system of knowledge obtained and tested through the scientific method in a methodical manner. It works on anything, including social sciences. There are of course a lot more uncontrollable variables with social sciences than say with physical sciences, but that doesn't mean conclusions can't be arrived at.

[Conza88]

What's the highest level of education you possess? How old are you?

What is the relevance? Age has nothing to do with wisdom or knowledge. Don't start spouting fallacies now Matt.


Your ignorance is astounding. Anyone who studies politics scientifically will tell you that the only legitimate objective in a campaign is to win votes. Have you ever studied political science?

Your stupidity is stupendous. Tell me, is there a difference between Ron Paul and other politicians? Will Ron 'win' at any costs? Does he care what the polls say on any given issue?

I mean, have you learnt fck all this whole campaign? Did Ron get into office because he had the best team of pollsters, the best political science students / marketers? I mean are you that fcken retarded Matt? :rolleyes:

Do you think Ron's only campaign objective is to win votes? No I haven't studied political science Matt, because I'd find more truth in the back alleys of Pamplona, Spain after the running of the Bulls. The shit would be more useful too, it'd have a productive value - fertilizer. Something good could grow out of it. Political "science" is bullshit.


And if you want to run campaigns with no hope of winning, then you should join the Libertarian Party, they are good at that. In fact almost every campaign they run is an "education campaign".

The compromise party of utilitarian light weight former republican Bobb Barr sell outs? No thanks. If they actually went radical last time - they would have gotten more votes than selling out.

http://www.lprc.org/tenpoints.html (http://www.lprc.org/tenpoints.html)


You obviously don't understand what science is; it's a methodology. It's a system of knowledge obtained and tested through the scientific method in a methodical manner. It works on anything, including social sciences. There are of course a lot more uncontrollable variables with social sciences than say with physical sciences, but that doesn't mean conclusions can't be arrived at.

No Matt, I obviously do understand what science is. Empiricism mate. Test, trial and error, modeling, ring a bell at all? :rolleyes: And it doesn't work in the social sciences.

Do you know what Austrian Economics is Matt? Have you studied it matt? Here, learn something useful.



An Introduction to Economic Reasoning (http://mises.org/etexts/EconReasoning.pdf) by David Gordon


"As the only text of its kind, this book is engaging, funny, filled with examples, and never talks down to the student. It is perfect for homeschoolers, but every student, young or old, will benefit from it. Indeed, a student familiar with its contents will be fully prepared to see through the fallacies of the introductory economics texts used at the college level."

Epistemological Problems of Economics (http://mises.org/epofe.asp) by Ludwig Von Mises


"The science of human action that strives for universally valid knowledge is the theoretical system whose hitherto best elaborated branch is economics. In all of its branches this science is a priori, not empirical. Like logic and mathematics, it is not derived from experience; it is prior to experience. It is, as it were, the logic of action and deed."

Economic Science and the Austrian Method (http://mises.org/esandtam.asp) by Hans-Hermann Hoppe

Praxeology and Economic Science:

Sec I : "It is well-known that Austrians disagree strongly with other schools of economic thought..."
Sec II : "Non-praxeological schools of thought mistakenly believe that relationships between certain events are well-established empirical laws..."

On Praxeology and the Praxeological Foundation of Epistemology

Sec I : "As have most great and innovative economists, Ludwig von Mises intensively and repeatedly analyzed the problem of the logical status of economic propositions..."
Sec II : "Let me turn to Mises's solution..."
Sec III : "I shall now turn to my second goal: the explanation of why and how praxeology also provides the foundation for epistemology..."
Sec IV : "In so establishing the place of praxeology proper, I have come full circle in outlining the system of rationalist philosophy as ultimately grounded in the action axiom..."

The Ultimate Foundation of Economic Science (http://mises.org/ufofes.asp) by Ludwig Von Mises


There are two senses in which this book is indeed ultimate: it deals with the very core of economics as a science, and it is the last book that he wrote.

As his career was coming to a close, Mises saw that that fiercest battles over economic questions come down to issues of epistemology: how do we determine what is and what is not true in economics? How do we even know that economics is a valid science? What are the methods we should use in studying economics? What constitutes a true proposition and how do we know?

These questions matter because, as Mises says, the very future of freedom and civilization itself depend on economic science, the development and application of which was "the most spectacular event of modern history."

1. Social Science and Natural Science by Ludwig Von Mises (http://mises.org/mmmp/mmmp1.asp) ;)

[Matt Collins]

What is the relevance? Age has nothing to do with wisdom or knowledge. Don't start spouting fallacies now Matt. Again, how old are you, and what's your highest level of formal education?




Tell me, is there a difference between Ron Paul and other politicians? Will Ron 'win' at any costs? Does he care what the polls say on any given issue? Ron doesn't have to because he's in the unique position of winning his seat each and every time guaranteed practically without a fight.


Did Ron get into office because he had the best team of pollsters, the best political science students / marketers? I mean are you that fcken retarded Matt? :rolleyes:As I have stated, Ron doesn't have to fight for his race, everyone else does however. Ron is unique in that regard. Other liberty candidates WILL have to fight for their seats and must use proven strategies and methods, otherwise they will not win.




Do you think Ron's only campaign objective is to win votes? In his Congressional campaign, yes.


No I haven't studied political scienceThat's obvious because your lack of professionalism, lack of education, and lack of knowledge on the subject is making you look bad.



Political "science" is bullshit.Right, tell that to the strategists who win campaign after campaign. :rolleyes:

[robertwerden]

OK, you want to hear something really weird. After a debate I managed to get Frank Luntz personal blackberry email address and I had a conversation with him.

Long story short he is a hired gun and says what he is paid to say. However, he likes Ron Paul.

[Conza88]

Again, how old are you, and what's your highest level of formal education?

Again, what's the relevancy? I'm 88 and autodidactic. lolz :D ;)


Ron doesn't have to because he's in the unique position of winning his seat each and every time guaranteed practically without a fight.

2008 Presidential Race.

"Tell me, is there a difference between Ron Paul and other politicians? Will Ron 'win' at any costs? Does he care what the polls say on any given issue
The point stands.

As I have stated, Ron doesn't have to fight for his race, everyone else does however. Ron is unique in that regard. Other liberty candidates WILL have to fight for their seats and must use proven strategies and methods, otherwise they will not win.

As I have stated, Ron did - Presidential Campaign, you know... kind of the reason we're all here...... :rolleyes:


In his Congressional campaign, yes.

Ah ha! And for his Presidential? The one that basically everyone cares about / has sparked a revolution world wide... ;)


That's obvious because your lack of professionalism, lack of education, and lack of knowledge on the subject is making you look bad.


Haha, Oooohhhh Matt - have you made any sensationalist threads attacking Ron's campaign staff for something they said privately on facebook, that no-one saw, knew about, or even cared about... and trying to tar them with it publicly - lately?

Ohhh no? You haven't? Well hallelujah! :eek: That wasn't a very good display of 'professionalism', now was it?


Right, tell that to the strategists who win campaign after campaign. :rolleyes:

Lying, catering to special interests, double talk, pro establishment, pro status quo, friendly fourth estate, propaganda, million dollar slush funds.... all the things Ron doesn't have, bar the very latter.

They "win", but America loses.

[Matt Collins]

Again, what's the relevancy? I'm 88 and autodidactic.So are you going to continue to evade the question?




Haha, Oooohhhh Matt - have you made any sensationalist threads attacking Ron's campaign staff for something they said privately on facebook, that no-one saw, knew about, or even cared about... and trying to tar them with it publicly - lately?It wasn't private (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=175865&highlight=egoroff).

[Conza88]

So are you going to continue to evade the question?

I'm not evading it, the answer is basically staring you right in the face. What is the possible relevance of the '88' in my name? See how many you can cross out by my existence on this forum. In the past you liked to brag about your IQ... This shouldn't be hard then. :rolleyes: And B, I have already answered your question on these forums before. If you want to use the search button, you'll find it - it'll just probably take a very long time... I am being an ass? Probably, actually - definitely. Why? The person asking the dumb question in an effort to use a fallacy, is also one. :)


It wasn't private (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=175865&highlight=egoroff).

Haha, since I think you've somewhat changed, ala I haven't seen any evidence, on here at least, of you being your old dickish attention whore self... I'ma ease up on ya and not quote from the hundred or so worth quotes from that thread. :)

[Bman]

I believe Conza is 21 or 22.

[Matt Collins]

I'm not evading it, the answer is basically staring you right in the face. So what's your highest level of education?:confused:

[american.swan]

We could hire Luntz and tell him what results we want to get out of his study, then watch in amazement as his results just happen to coincide with our desired outcome.

Or we could create our own results out of thin air and use a stick figure as our "expert" and have the same outcome.

HAHAHA LOL stop I might wake up my sleeping family

[Conza88]

I believe Conza is 21 or 22.

:o


So what's your highest level of education?:confused:

When you answer my questions, I'll make it easier for you.

And your premise is flawed. University doesn't necessarily equal education, especially if you are involved in the social sciences in anyway, shape, or form. Anyone can get a higher education from a textbook based in reality. See: Home schoolers.

Where does that leave us? ;)