Chinese sub smashes into US destroyer's sonar.

[Anti Federalist]

Chinese sub smashes US destroyer's sonar (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25629659-5005961,00.html)

A CHINESE submarine has smashed into an underwater sonar array towed behind a US destroyer, according to a report.

The incident with the USS John S. McCain occurred off the coast of the Philippines, CNN television reported, quoting a US official who said it was an "inadvertent encounter".

The array, used to locate underwater sounds, was damaged in the incident, but the military official said the sub and ship did not collide.

The US Navy did not consider the event a case of deliberate harassment, CNN reported.

In March this year two tense standoffs between US and Chinese vessels in the South China Sea triggered accusations by the US that China was behaving in an "aggressive" manner.

China later said a US naval vessel involved in the incident with Chinese fishing boats in the Yellow Sea had violated maritime law, and urged the US to take steps to avoid a repetition.

(Just an aside here: since when did it become common practice to name US warships after living people? Unless I'm mistaken it had always been a posthumous honor, the naming of warships after still living people, especially hack politicians, was always considered to be crass at best, a hallmark of tyranny at the worst.)

[Anti Federalist]

From almost two years ago, a story that got zero US media coverage btw.

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced (http://"http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html")

By MATTHEW HICKLEY
Last updated at 00:13 10 November 2007

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.
At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon

[Sean]

I have read that we aren't able to detect some of the newer subs, but for one to run into a destroyer is outrageous.

[Pod]

China has electrical submarines. Much, much more silent than the nuclear ones that the US rellies on.

They got their hands on some German technology who are stil the leaders in this field.

[Anti Federalist]

China has electrical submarines. Much, much more silent than the nuclear ones that the US rellies on.

They got their hands on some German technology who are stil the leaders in this field.

Actually the subs that the Chinese base the "Song" class on are Norwegian, IRC.

One of the reasons they are so silent, aside from the electric drive systems, is the propellers.

Technology that was lost to us due to an internal Navy spy that sold the information off, on how to build these propellers, back in the 80s.

[Pod]

Actually the subs that the Chinese base the "Song" class on are Norwegian, IRC.

I see. Thanks for the info.

[LATruth]

Chinese sub smashes US destroyer's sonar (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25629659-5005961,00.html)



What does this tell you of our sonar capabilities vs Chinese subs? The ship towing the line should have seen it coming and executed evasive maneuvers, unless of course it didn't detect it.

[RSLudlum]

unless of course it didn't detect it.

Quite embarrassing esp. since the sub actually ran into the sonar array. You cant get much closer than that. ;)

That's akin to someone walking up to you, punching you in the nose, and you never saw them coming towards you.

[Brassmouth]

Is anyone surprised when the State screws up a road repair job? Or if a cop beats up an innocent person?

Then why be surprised that the socialized military is too inept even to detect a submarine from hitting them?

They're bureaucrats with guns, people. Just be happy that every other military is run like a Soviet grocery store as well...

[HOLLYWOOD]

AMEN brother! ...And That's Just the Way It Is!

Oh The Battle Hymm of the Republic :rolleyes:


Is anyone surprised when the State screws up a road repair job? Or if a cop beats up an innocent person?

Then why be surprised that the socialized military is too inept even to detect a submarine from hitting them?

They're bureaucrats with guns, people. Just be happy that every other military is run like a Soviet grocery store as well...

[Anti Federalist]

What does this tell you of our sonar capabilities vs Chinese subs? The ship towing the line should have seen it coming and executed evasive maneuvers, unless of course it didn't detect it.

That's why I posted the story about the USS Kitty Hawk from two years ago.

It's pretty clear the Chinese have perfected the Norwegian design in such a way that US passive sonars cannot detect them.

The diesel/electric boats always were more silent, the noises coming off cooling pumps, heat exchangers and such were what gave the nuclear boats a sound signature that could be tracked.

A well tweaked diesel/electric design, which the Chinese have done, becomes a hole in the water when running silent.

[Liberty Star]

While we are tuning our techonologies on robots and other stuff for combating "rag tag" fighters in Iraqi freedom op and Afghanistan, Chinese seem to be moving ahead full force with "cold war" style prep.
We may have to rebuild bridges with radical jihadi groups soon if this kept up and China became a serious power threat.

[Anti Federalist]

While we are tuning our techonologies on robots and other stuff for combating "rag tag" fighters in Iraqi freedom op and Afghanistan, Chinese seem to be moving ahead full force with "cold war" style prep.
We may have to rebuild bridges with radical jihadi groups soon if this kept up and China became a serious power threat.

China already is a serious power threat.

Without firing a shot, they could put our lights out, just by dumping the debt they carry for us and enacting a trade embargo against us.

Thought the Arab oil embargo of '73 was bad?

Let the Chinese decide to stop any exports of manufactured goods to the US.

[Liberty Star]

China already is a serious power threat.

Without firing a shot, they could put our lights out, just by dumping the debt they carry for us and enacting a trade embargo against us.

Thought the Arab oil embargo of '73 was bad?

Let the Chinese decide to stop any exports of manufactured goods to the US.


This is a very good point.

What would happen if China abruptly stopped all exports to US? That's a scary thought.

[Dr.3D]

LOL, I can't tell you what I know about towed sonar arrays as it would probably put me in a position of being arrested and thrown in jail. I can say though, the sonar array was probably working very well and doing it's job when that submarine ran into it. ;)

[Anti Federalist]

This is a very good point.

What would happen if China abruptly stopped all exports to US? That's a scary thought.

Thanks.

It is a scary prospect.

Wrap your mind around all the Chinese shit that fuels the "consumer economy".

Think how long it would take, if it could even be done anymore, to tool up to make that stuff ourselves, or to get somebody else to do it.

Then think about the current "just in time" supply chain system in place now.

Everything from anchor chain to MP3 players would be gone in a month. The largest employer, outside of government, Wal-Marx, would shut down.

The naysayers will tell you "oh that will never happen, the Chinese need us just as much as we need them".

Nonsense, this is a nation that has a long history of letting the people suffer for the purposes of a grander national goal. If they decided on this course of action, whatever tribulations the Chinese people would suffer from would be of no consequence to them.

[Zippyjuan]

Wow. A sonar array can be pretty long- according to Wiki up to 5000 meters which is almost three miles. The sub would not have to necessarily be that close to the ship to run into it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towed_array_sonar

A towed array sonar is a sonar array that is towed behind a submarine or surface ship. It is basically a long cable, up to 5000 m, with hydrophones that is trailed behind the ship when deployed.[citation needed] The hydrophones are placed at specific distances along the cable. On the first few hundred meters near the ship's propeller there are usually none since their effectiveness would have been reduced by noise, vibration and turbulence generated by the propulsion. Surface ships often have the sonar array mounted on a cable which pulls a tow vehicle (an ROV - see Surveillance Towed Array Sensor System) behind the mother ship, or on another cable which trails from the ROV connector. By changing the ROV's depth, the sensor can be deployed in different thermal layers.


When not deployed, an Akula's towed array is stored in a teardrop shaped container mounted on top of the vertical finThe array's hydrophones can be used to detect sound sources, but the real value of the array is that the signal processing technique of beamforming and interferometry can be used to calculate the distance and the direction of a sound source. For this, the relative position of the hydrophones need to be known, usually this is only guaranteed when the cable of the array is in a straight line, or else a GPS is used to monitor the shape of the array. Therefore, a vessel using a towed array will need to travel straight (and level), lest a change of course will disturb the array and reduce its effectiveness. This requirement is reduced in the most modern systems by sensors which constantly measure the relative positions of the array elements. Also it has to reduce its speed because the hydrodynamic drag might tear the cable - this can also happen if the array makes contact with the seafloor or the submarine operates astern propulsion.

Despite all those disadvantages, a towed array is useful since it offers better resolution and range compared to a hull mounted sonar and it covers the baffles, the blind spot of hull mounted sonar.


More detailed info if interested: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/towed-array.htm

[Objectivist]

NO biggie, it's a towed array. They should have spares on board.

[Cowlesy]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/3/32/Facepalm.jpg

<chinese facepalm>

[Objectivist]

I have read that we aren't able to detect some of the newer subs, but for one to run into a destroyer is outrageous.

It did not hit the destroyer.

[Steeleye]

(Just an aside here: since when did it become common practice to name US warships after living people? Unless I'm mistaken it had always been a posthumous honor, the naming of warships after still living people, especially hack politicians, was always considered to be crass at best, a hallmark of tyranny at the worst.)

The ship is named after his McCain's father who was an admiral during WWII.

[Objectivist]

Heads-up people, a reason for towing an array is to check your baffles, or the space behind the ships screw. More than likely they pegged the Chinese sub as it was coming in from behind, good reason to deploy the towed sonar array.

On the other item about the SHitty Kitty, the sub may have known where regular training was going to occur and sat on the bottom for an extended period of time, waiting to surface as the ships entered the area.

I myself am a former USN Fast Attack Submariner. If we can drive boats into Soviet harbors and tap their phone lines submerged while sitting on the bottom then so can the other guys.

[Zippyjuan]

If they know it was a Chinese sub which destroyed the array then obviously they knew the sub was there.

[Brian4Liberty]

Actually the subs that the Chinese base the "Song" class on are Norwegian, IRC.

One of the reasons they are so silent, aside from the electric drive systems, is the propellers.

Technology that was lost to us due to an internal Navy spy that sold the information off, on how to build these propellers, back in the 80s.

I believe Toshiba was also involved in selling submarine secrets...

[Objectivist]

If they know it was a Chinese sub which destroyed the array then obviously they knew the sub was there.

It's a clever way of knocking on their door if you know they are tailing you.

[Anti Federalist]

The ship is named after his McCain's father who was an admiral during WWII.

OK, here's another example:

USS George H.W. Bush (CVN-77)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

USS George H. W. Bush (CVN-77) is the tenth and last Nimitz class supercarrier of the United States Navy.[1] She is named for former President George H. W. Bush, who was a naval aviator during World War II.

George H.W. Bush is also the second aircraft carrier, following Ronald Reagan, to be named after a living former President