Is it ever wrong and should it ever be illegal to torture or kill animals?

[MRoCkEd]

Assuming these animals are not the property of other people, do you ever consider it wrong to torture them, or to kill them? Also, should it ever be illegal to do this? I am talking about non-human animals. I won't put a poll because it isn't exactly black and white.

http://www.delta-education.com/images/products/1625764.jpg

Should you be able to legally: Torture all of them? Kill all of them? Torture only some? Kill only some? Only kill them if you plan to eat them? Only torture them if you feel they have important information? Torture none? Kill none?

And, setting aside the law, do you have a personal or moral objection to these activities?

[Dr.3D]

If they are to be used as food, it is okay to kill them. It is usually hard to eat something that is still alive.

It is never right or proper to torture an animal. When hunting, most people tend to be as humane as possible when making the kill.

As for insects, they can be pests and if they are being a pest, then it is okay to kill them but not to torture them.

[MRoCkEd]

If they are to be used as food, it is okay to kill them. It is usually hard to eat something that is still alive.

It is never right or proper to torture an animal. When hunting, most people tend to be as humane as possible when making the kill.

As for insects, they can be pests and if they are being a pest, then it is okay to kill them but not to torture them.
Don't forget to include whether or not you think any of these activities should be illegal.

[Dr.3D]

Don't forget to include whether or not you think any of these activities should be illegal.

Torture of any animal should be illegal.

I don't use sticky traps to catch pests other than insects because I consider them as torture. It is also fine to kill animal pests and varmints and not eat them.

To hunt down an animal just for the 'sport' of killing it and not with the intent of eating it should be illegal. Again, hunting down a pest or varmint is an exception.

Edit: Of course an animal considered as being dangerous to property (includes livestock) or human life would be considered a varmint.

[UnReconstructed]

What would the minarchists do?

[literatim]

What would the minarchists do?

Put it in the jurisdiction of local governments: police and county sheriff.

[Annihilia]

I think as a sentient species we have a moral responsibility to be humane to lower order life. Deriving pleasure from an animal's suffering shows contempt for all life.

Also, looking far ahead, I think that this is important to establish early before our technology allows us to leave Earth and go to other places with potential life. Kind of out there, but inevitable.

[Working Poor]

Of course is it wrong to torture animals I don't want to know if someone thinks it is okay.

[MRoCkEd]

Of course is it wrong to torture animals I don't want to know if someone thinks it is okay.
Don't forget the first part of the question - should it be illegal?

Should the law punish me for pulling the legs off a spider? For doing the same to a frog? To a dog?

None of these? Some of these? All of these?

[andrewh817]

No federal law should say its illegal........ let the locals decide whether they want laws or not.

[Elwar]

It is We The People who granted power to the government under the US Constitution.

Animals have the right to come up with their own legal system if they so choose.

[Imperial]

As a moral question? Yeah, animal cruelty is despicable. I think killing animals should be kept to a minimum myself. I don't hunt, but I don't have a problem with hunters. I understand that sometimes we kill animals in certain fields just as a byproduct of human action (for example, mowing a giant field or building a new complex) and in those instances we should minimize animal deaths without excessively impeding our work. There is also (sadly) a necessary role for population control in animal populations.

As a legal question? I could care less. If something is wrong and the law says it is right, I say screw the law. All law is a human construct. I respect it only as a method to keep order by mutual respect of some certain framework. But if the law itself breaks a moral framework to a significant degree- screw the law. Let whatever authority prosecute that will stand for justice.

[Krugerrand]

Should you be able to legally: Torture all of them? Kill all of them? Torture only some? Kill only some? Only kill them if you plan to eat them? Only torture them if you feel they have important information? Torture none? Kill none?

What a great line!

[Annihilia]

No federal law should say its illegal........ let the locals decide whether they want laws or not.

This.

[MRoCkEd]

And would you support any laws against animal torture/murder at the local level? If so, which?

[Theocrat]

Assuming these animals are not the property of other people, do you ever consider it wrong to torture them, or to kill them? Also, should it ever be illegal to do this? I am talking about non-human animals. I won't put a poll because it isn't exactly black and white.

http://www.delta-education.com/images/products/1625764.jpg

Should you be able to legally: Torture all of them? Kill all of them? Torture only some? Kill only some? Only kill them if you plan to eat them? Only torture them if you feel they have important information? Torture none? Kill none?

And, setting aside the law, do you have a personal or moral objection to these activities?

An even more interesting question is whether animals have rights. To those who believe rights are innate to us because we exist ("natural law/rights" theorists), that would also seem to apply to the animals and plants, as well. So, then, the answer to whether we should make torture and killing of animals (and plants) legal becomes obvious. No.

However, if one believes rights come to humans exclusively by our Creator, and God has given mankind stewardship and dominion over His creation (including animals and plants), then I would say killing animals should not be made illegal, for we eat animals and plants for food, as well as use their skins for clothing.

As far as torture is concerned, I would say it's not wise (and unpleasant) to do that to animals, but I don't know if I would make it illegal because humans and animals are on different levels of morality.

[Kylie]

I think it's a question of morals, not legality.

I know that some dead animals taste good, but to torture them before killing them isn't right.

I have taken animals away from others who were mistreating them.

It's a slippery slope to legislate moral code. I guess how you act depends on how you are raised as to what constitutes inhumane torture or killing.

[pacelli]

Why don't you answer your own questions instead of prodding everyone else along?

Is it WRONG to waterboard a dog? I think so.

Should it be illegal to waterboard a dog? Yes, on my property it is illegal to torture animals.

Again, answer your own questions. I hate when people phish for information without providing their own opinion.

[Annihilia]

Why don't you answer your own questions instead of prodding everyone else along?

Is it WRONG to waterboard a dog? I think so.

Should it be illegal to waterboard a dog? Yes, on my property it is illegal to torture animals.

Again, answer your own questions. I hate when people phish for information without providing their own opinion.

Maybe he hasn't formed an opinion and is looking for something that fits into his ethical structure.

[Elwar]

morality != legality

[ChaosControl]

Torture of them should be illegal period.
Killing of them should only be done if you need it for food or for self defense or to prevent over population. And if killing is done, it should be done in a humane way.

On my personal views I object to killing them really in all but self defense, of course I am vegetarian so killing for meat isn't an issue.

Take that ***** who put a kitten in an oven and cooked it to death. I think she should be put in an oven and cooked to death herself.


As for my thinking on how this goes with liberty, it all comes back to the harm none idea. You are free to do anything you want as long as no non-consenting party is harmed. You harm an animal, you are harming a non-consenting party. No I don't put animals on the same value level as humans, but I do put them on a higher level than plants which I put on a higher level than politicians and lawyers. I feel the harm none applies to animals almost to the same level as humans.

[Annihilia]

I think it should be illegal in whatever locality I choose to live in.

As far as what, I would say higher order vertebrates. While pulling legs off a spider is cruel, they aren't wired to feel pain and emotion, which certain animals are proven to feel.

[MRoCkEd]

morality != legality
That's why I posed separate questions. Is it ever wrong/immoral? Should it ever be illegal?

[pacelli]

Maybe he hasn't formed an opinion and is looking for something that fits into his ethical structure.

Or maybe he is trying to evaluate the prevalence of a single diagnostic indicator of conduct disorder/antisocial personality disorder.

What's the deal, MRocked?

[Imperial]

Torture of them should be illegal period.
Killing of them should only be done if you need it for food or for self defense or to prevent over population. And if killing is done, it should be done in a humane way.

On my personal views I object to killing them really in all but self defense, of course I am vegetarian so killing for meat isn't an issue.

Take that ***** who put a kitten in an oven and cooked it to death. I think she should be put in an oven and cooked to death herself.


As for my thinking on how this goes with liberty, it all comes back to the harm none idea. You are free to do anything you want as long as no non-consenting party is harmed. You harm an animal, you are harming a non-consenting party. No I don't put animals on the same value level as humans, but I do put them on a higher level than plants which I put on a higher level than politicians and lawyers. I feel the harm none applies to animals almost to the same level as humans.

Yup even though I'm not a vegetarian, and I put politicians on maybe a bit higher level :D


That's why I posed separate questions. Is it ever wrong/immoral? Should it ever be illegal?

I think an equally important question is how relevant the law is here. If you see evil do you tolerate its presence? Even if its institutionalized?

I'l answer no in that instance. So at what point is it wrong. That's the real debate when it comes down to it. Like RP said in his '88 campaign book, all good law is ulimately morally founded.

[Young Paleocon]

I fail to see the axiomatic roots of morality pertaining to non human organisms beyond ones personal preference. Plants are also living organisms, in fact ones that provide our oxygen, should they be considered for torture or killing laws/moral codes.

[MRoCkEd]

What's the deal, MRocked?
What he (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2164272#post2164272) said.

[ChaosControl]

Yup even though I'm not a vegetarian, and I put politicians on maybe a bit higher level

Well Ron Paul and liberty candidates yes, the rest no.
I seriously care more about the tomato plant in the back yard than I do about the rest of the politicians.

[TastyWheat]

It's definitely wrong, but illegal? If it's a wild animal I'd say no. He someone owns it then that's obviously a violation of property. If every animal had the right o be free from torture and murder then they don't deserve to be our slaves either. I don't believe in giving half-rights to anything.

[dannno]

I don't use sticky traps to catch pests other than insects because I consider them as torture.

I learned that one the hard way :o

Poor baby rats....pooor screaming baby rats :(

[Annihilia]

I learned that one the hard way :o

Poor baby rats....pooor screaming baby rats :(

:(

[revolutionisnow]

So how is animal testing different than dog fighting? Both inflict pain to the animal. How is shooting a wild animal different than animal control killing them via euthanasia? And as far as killing animals for food, well most of us would be considered wasteful by some societies such as the Native American tribes where they would have to use every part of an animal they killed.

[Derek Johnson]

Assuming these animals are not the property of other people, do you ever consider it wrong to torture them, or to kill them? Also, should it ever be illegal to do this? I am talking about non-human animals. I won't put a poll because it isn't exactly black and white.

http://www.delta-education.com/images/products/1625764.jpg

Should you be able to legally: Torture all of them? Kill all of them? Torture only some? Kill only some? Only kill them if you plan to eat them? Only torture them if you feel they have important information? Torture none? Kill none?

And, setting aside the law, do you have a personal or moral objection to these activities?

In Genesis we are given dominion over the animals. Last week I butchered and processed 13 roosters with my wife, and thanks to God for these wonderful and amazing animals.

What is cruel is the chicken that we buy in stores and restaurants: those chickens are tortured from the time they hatch [growth hormones, life in a cage etc]...their best day is actually when they are butchered.

[ChaosControl]

So how is animal testing different than dog fighting? Both inflict pain to the animal. How is shooting a wild animal different than animal control killing them via euthanasia? And as far as killing animals for food, well most of us would be considered wasteful by some societies such as the Native American tribes where they would have to use every part of an animal they killed.

Well abuse is abuse and I am opposed to any of it.
If you do have to kill though, do it in the manner that inflicts minimal to no pain. And if you do kill, use up every little bit from the fur to the skin to the meat.

[RM918]

It's really a very tricky question. Myself, as a dog-owner and a cat-owner, sympathize a lot with animals. It bothers me a lot to think of anyone torturing an animal I actually care about, but animals I don't find cute my feelings dull. Say, the difference between pulling the legs off of a black widow or pulling the legs off of a baby panda. One would horrify me, and as I find the former disgusting I wouldn't be feeling much sympathy for the spider.

It's a big question. I suppose, ideally, we shouldn't be mistreating other forms of life. But then, where does one draw the line? Only animals one feels sympathy for, or even pests? Insects? Plants? Bacteria?

It's probably best to leave this sort of thing to the local government, as it varies from place to place and person to person unless we're prepared to amend the constitution into giving rights to other species.

[Flash]

I say it should be legal to kill animals if you wish to eat them or sell their meat, and to feed to other pets. Illegal to hunt for the fun of it or to torture.

[James Madison]

Whether you approach the debate from a Biblical or scientific basis, human beings have full dominion over the other species of the planet. The religious explanation has already been explained. The scientific explanation is also fairly simple. Evolution gave our species incredible intellect, which is able to compensate for our vastly inferior physical prowess. And being that the natural order of the universe is survival of the fittest, mankind is clearly the most adapted species for a lifestyle of dominion over the animal kingdom. Of course, the simplest argument is animals do not have natural rights.

[Epic]

Animals do not have human rights. We eat them. Thus, we can kill them or torture them. Not that I would.

If somebody does something you don't like in this regard, boycott them and ostracize them.

[Anti Federalist]

Only the ugly ones.

[MRoCkEd]

If every animal had the right to be free from torture and murder then they don't deserve to be our slaves either. I don't believe in giving half-rights to anything.
Good point. Why should it be illegal to torture or kill an animal, but not to enslave them or steal from them? Or should these be illegal too?

[Brian4Liberty]

Is it WRONG to waterboard a dog? I think so.

Should it be illegal to waterboard a dog? Yes, on my property it is illegal to torture animals.


Let's ask Micheal Vick... :eek:

[Brian4Liberty]

:D

http://ds206.k12.sd.us/FarSide-AntHill-MangifyGlass.jpg

[Liberty Star]

Assuming these animals are not the property of other people, do you ever consider it wrong to torture them, or to kill them? Also, should it ever be illegal to do this? I am talking about non-human animals. I won't put a poll because it isn't exactly black and white.

http://www.delta-education.com/images/products/1625764.jpg

Should you be able to legally: Torture all of them? Kill all of them? Torture only some? Kill only some? Only kill them if you plan to eat them? Only torture them if you feel they have important information? Torture none? Kill none?

And, setting aside the law, do you have a personal or moral objection to these activities?

Are you trying to get fishing, hunting and fast food industries banned due to involved "violence against animals"?


A a barbed metal hook to catch "dogs" would be considered cruetly because we have petly needs for them but no one cares about the fish. Why , is it because it's more slippery or because its meat tastes better than that of dogs and cats?

There are some troubling questions surrounding modern man's attitude towards God's less weaponized creatures.

[torchbearer]

Are you trying to get fishing, hunting and fast food industries banned due to involved "violence against animals"?


A a barbed metal hook to catch "dogs" would be considered cruetly because we have petly needs for them but no one cares about the fish. Why , is it because it's more slippery or because its meat tastes better than that of dogs and cats?

There are some troubling questions surrounding modern man's attitude towards God's less weaponized creatures.

Its ok to eat fish because they don't have any feelings- something in the way....

[Liberty Star]

Its ok to eat fish because they don't have any feelings- something in the way....

I'm guilty of eating both fish and chicken this weekend. But there are some troubling aspects of big fish eating the small fish in this jungle we live in.

[Paulitical Correctness]

I will go as far as picking spiders up with my bare hands and transporting them outdoors. I'm guilty of stomping roaches, though. I guess everyone draws their own lines.

[2young2vote]

I think if the animal is yours then you should be able to do whatever you want with it. I don't think even local governments should tell you what to do with your own animals. If it is someone elses animals that you are torturing then i think it should be up to the owner. The animal is their property and if you destroy it then you should be punished if the owner wants you to be punished.

For animals that are in the wild i think that if it is on your land then it is yours and you can do what you want with it. But if it is on public property then the local government should be able to decide what is right and wrong (if its federal government property then they should decide).

Of course, i would never torture an animal no matter who owned it and i wouldnt like anyone who did torture an animal. I wouldn't even be able to watch an animal being hurt. It is wrong and cruel but I don't think it is something the government should get involved with. They're animals, I honestly don't care about them if i don't see what is happening.

[Mrs.Joe]

I do believe that it is extremly immoral/wrong to torture animals. I would also think the same thing about eating them if I didnt like steak so much. Each individual decides what they find moral about their own actions. How about instead of making more things illegal we teach people more about morals and help them achieve a higher moral ground. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink right? So at least its worth a shot to try to teach people to develop good morals. But then again it comes with the whole argument of everyone has different morals..So its all a catch 22.
I do believe in hunting for fun.........if the deer can have a gun too.

[Liberty Star]

I do believe that it is extremly immoral/wrong to torture animals.


I completely agree and I would add humans also to list of species that should not be tortured : -)

[Mrs.Joe]

very true!