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acptulsa
06-08-2009, 01:02 PM
Surely the G.O.P. isn't leaving well enough alone. They never, ever do. So, are they trying to bend our fledgling CFL to its mighty will? I've heard anecdotal evidence that they're at least trying with some chapters in the northeastern states. Apparently Oklahoma either is clear off their radar or considered incorrigible.

Anybody have any stories to share? Any niggling doubts that you can't make sense of? Fess up, and let's see if there's a bigger picture to it that we can't see just looking at our own pieces of the puzzle.

acptulsa
06-08-2009, 01:13 PM
Has anyone had someone in their local chapter who's a little too insistent that 'the G.O.P. is the only way to go'?

LittleLightShining
06-08-2009, 01:19 PM
Ok, after reading this post (and knowing a little something ;) about which acp is getting at. I read this post: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=195169
(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=195169)
So here's what I think: There's a movement to get the C4L GOP focused while the GOP is clearly not looking to move into the liberty camp. The way to neutralize the C4L is to get it fighting party status quo instead of actually getting the message out.

FrankRep
06-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Watch out for the Pro-Constitutional Convention people.

acptulsa
06-08-2009, 01:40 PM
Yeah, the Con Con does have the smell of a bait and switch tactic, doesn't it? Try to give the Constitution teeth and you could lose it completely...

One thing's for certain. If they succeed in painting the C4L as another G.O.P. lapdog organization, that will kill it. The C4L could well be useful as a bridge across the aisle; if you don't like the G.O.P. help us return it to the ranks of respectable organizations. Hang the taint on it from the start and it won't even get touched by ten foot poles.

So, what? Is there no one around here who's active in it? Is the organization in fact not considered to be worth their trouble? Or are they being uncharacteristically subtle for neocons?

brandon
06-08-2009, 02:01 PM
Surely the G.O.P. isn't leaving well enough alone. They never, ever do. So, are they trying to bend our fledgling CFL to its mighty will? I've heard anecdotal evidence that they're at least trying with some chapters in the northeastern states. Apparently Oklahoma either is clear off their radar or considered incorrigible.

Anybody have any stories to share? Any niggling doubts that you can't make sense of? Fess up, and let's see if there's a bigger picture to it that we can't see just looking at our own pieces of the puzzle.

Well, I don't really have any evidence, but I do have an observation I can share.


I was very heavily involved with the Ron Paul 2008 meetups and campaign. During this time I was an assistant organizer to the philly group and met most of the activists in southeast PA and Jersey. However, I have not really been involved with the local CFL at all, other than attending a tea party and end the fed event.

I've noticed that all of the "leaders" in my local CFL groups are new faces that I did not meet at all during the RP2008 campaign. I'm not really sure where these people came from. I really just don't know them though, so I can't make any assumptions to their motives.

acptulsa
06-08-2009, 02:04 PM
Interesting, thanks.

Hate to think we're setting these tools up for them, not for us.

He Who Pawns
06-08-2009, 02:04 PM
I would be wary of "Christian Right" types who want to control people's lives through government, and of Neocons who agree with us on economics and maybe even some social issues, but who want to continue the warmongering that brought down the GOP.

heavenlyboy34
06-08-2009, 02:13 PM
Has anyone had someone in their local chapter who's a little too insistent that 'the G.O.P. is the only way to go'?

No, but we've got several regular posters on RPFs who take that approach. :eek::(:p

Danke
06-08-2009, 02:53 PM
No, but we've got several regular posters on RPFs who take that approach. :eek::(:p

Isn't that Ron Paul's position?

LittleLightShining
06-08-2009, 03:11 PM
Isn't that Ron Paul's position?During the campaign he did encourage us to become involved with the GOP-- which is why I did. That said, C4L was supposed to be a multi-faceted organization with one main focus being education. At this stage of the game it seems that HQ has taken a different tack and is pushing GOP centered activism. I think it's a bad move.

Scroll down to the first blog post: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/usa/VT/

nobody's_hero
06-08-2009, 03:33 PM
I guess I should go ahead and make it clear that I'm one of those "Con Con" people, though I have had nothing pleasant to say about the GOP since I joined the rEVOLution.

(not trying to stir the pot, really, I've argued my positions on the Article V Convention to death. I just don't want to be singled out on such an ineffective litmus test when there are far more potent ways to determine who among the CFL crowd are infiltrators/party-hacks.)

Incidentally, I've seen a lot of people from the GOP join up as a result of seeing us out at the Tea Parties, and of those who have joined in my district, they have entered with open-minds and a desire to see revolutionary ideas come to Washington. Many are getting quite fed up with the old guard.

I do think we should be vigilant, however, in seeing to it that we aren't just going to be blind banner wavers and lever pullers for the Republican party. I didn't sign up to trade one tyrant for another.

raiha
06-08-2009, 06:20 PM
I guess I should go ahead and make it clear that I'm one of those "Con Con" people, though I have had nothing pleasant to say about the GOP since I joined the rEVOLution.

Good on yer for saying. Not that i could ever make sense of Bushian ethics.

Brassmouth
06-09-2009, 12:21 AM
Has anyone had someone in their local chapter who's a little too insistent that 'the G.O.P. is the only way to go'?

Please note that when the C4L is infiltrated, I was among the few here who predicted that would happen when the C4L was first created. :cool:



So here's what I think: There's a movement to get the C4L GOP focused while the GOP is clearly not looking to move into the liberty camp.

They infiltrated and took over Bureaucrash quite easily. I see no reason why it won't happen to C4L, if it hasn't already.

http://social.bureaucrash.com/group/counteringthecrasherinchief

Brassmouth
06-09-2009, 12:22 AM
Not that i could ever make sense of Bushian ethics.

That's because it's a contradiction in terms...

american.swan
06-09-2009, 12:26 AM
Has anyone had someone in their local chapter who's a little too insistent that 'the G.O.P. is the only way to go'?

As long as the masses vote GOP, that is the way we should go, if a viable third party arises, I'd be surprised, but I would support it if such an event took place.

american.swan
06-09-2009, 12:30 AM
I'm not involved in CFL. They send me emails; I think about the email then act according to my own views(same as Dr. Paul).

NO REAL SERIOUS MEMBER of this movement is going to be ANYONEs lapdog.

We are doing what we can to move this movement forward by whatever means are available, infitrated or not.

CFL get's overrun with Neo-con fools, we'll create another group and LEAVE. We all would rather vote third party then vote for some neo-con GOP rep.

KCIndy
06-09-2009, 12:46 AM
I'm a "dues-paying" member of CFL.

That being said, I'm pretty disappointed about how the organization seems to be drifting of late. Frankly, when I signed up for the site I was expecting something a bit more... activist, I guess.

They've been doing a good job of pushing for HR1207, but I'm amazed that there hasn't been any mention of all the up-and-coming candidates for the 2010 elections. Now is the time to get behind liberty minded candidates. It takes time to build up networking groups and base support, and I really wish CFL was more involved with this.

free.alive
06-09-2009, 12:56 AM
I'm a dues-paying member, and a coordinator.

I'm pretty disappointed about all the time and effort that has been wasted discussing minutiae like what a person in a precinct will be called, and exactly how much political stuff C4L members can't say.

Those of you who want to simply "educate the public," go join the JBS. They're not ancap (that is, if you're also an 'extremist' like me), but they get the propaganda job done.

Action! I want to fucking win some political battles, and I mean some big ones. If we resign ourselves to the idea that if we just tell enough people "the truth" then we'll return to a Constitutional republic, try to listen a little harder as those of us who are laughing at you stop laughing and shake our heads.

The C4L state groups need to incorporate ASAP so they can get out from under the national hierarchy, grow some balls and bear some teeth. We will never see liberty in our lifetime if we resign ourselves to always fighting defensive political battles.

I want us to come out of our battles with lots of political blood on the floor. Expect Washington State to continue fighting. On all fronts possible.

tremendoustie
06-09-2009, 02:33 AM
I'm a dues-paying member, and a coordinator.

I'm pretty disappointed about all the time and effort that has been wasted discussing minutiae like what a person in a precinct will be called, and exactly how much political stuff C4L members can't say.

Those of you who want to simply "educate the public," go join the JBS. They're not ancap (that is, if you're also an 'extremist' like me), but they get the propaganda job done.

Action! I want to fucking win some political battles, and I mean some big ones. If we resign ourselves to the idea that if we just tell enough people "the truth" then we'll return to a Constitutional republic, try to listen a little harder as those of us who are laughing at you stop laughing and shake our heads.

The C4L state groups need to incorporate ASAP so they can get out from under the national hierarchy, grow some balls and bear some teeth. We will never see liberty in our lifetime if we resign ourselves to always fighting defensive political battles.

I want us to come out of our battles with lots of political blood on the floor. Expect Washington State to continue fighting. On all fronts possible.

I think JBS does great stuff, but I feel like their name is too tainted in the general public. That I know of, it's not really their fault, it just somehow happened. People refer to the, "John Birchers" as the color by number nutso group, even though from what I've seen it's completely untrue. Getting people to think outside the box is hard enough without this hang up.

libertarian4321
06-09-2009, 04:22 AM
You'll know the C4L is officially doomed if you go to the website and see a featured blog by Sarah Palin, lol.

acptulsa
06-09-2009, 06:04 AM
Well, I can assure you of this: If we allow 'them' to determine who 'us' is and who 'them' is, we're never going to be able to hold them accountable. We can only hold accountable the individuals they put before us--but that's enough, if we dependably do it.

LittleLightShining
06-09-2009, 08:57 AM
I'm not sure if anyone read the link in my last post here but I think we're almost at a point of divergence. Basically we're being told by HQ that if we want to be involved in education we should join the JBS. Education was one of the primary missions of the C4L when I joined. It is the combination of education and grassroots activism-- take ronpaulhawaii's ride, for instance-- that makes us so special. Involvement in a party is important but if that's what we're all about I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

acptulsa
06-09-2009, 09:00 AM
Whatever is about keeping in lockstep isn't about liberty.

Imperial
06-09-2009, 04:02 PM
Well, I don't really have any evidence, but I do have an observation I can share.


I was very heavily involved with the Ron Paul 2008 meetups and campaign. During this time I was an assistant organizer to the philly group and met most of the activists in southeast PA and Jersey. However, I have not really been involved with the local CFL at all, other than attending a tea party and end the fed event.

I've noticed that all of the "leaders" in my local CFL groups are new faces that I did not meet at all during the RP2008 campaign. I'm not really sure where these people came from. I really just don't know them though, so I can't make any assumptions to their motives.

I will probably sign up as a local coordinator soon, and I didn't support Ron Paul until about April 2007 when I went to a rally and read a couple of his books. We definitely kept converting people to the end of the campaign and beyond.

LibertyEagle
06-09-2009, 04:15 PM
I'm not sure if anyone read the link in my last post here but I think we're almost at a point of divergence. Basically we're being told by HQ that if we want to be involved in education we should join the JBS. Education was one of the primary missions of the C4L when I joined. It is the combination of education and grassroots activism-- take ronpaulhawaii's ride, for instance-- that makes us so special. Involvement in a party is important but if that's what we're all about I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

No reason you can't do both, right? As an independent local or state organization, whether you've decided to link up with C4L or not, I don't see why you can't do whatever it is that you want to do. Mix the heck out of it LLS, if that's what you think will work best for your state.

:)

LibertyEagle
06-09-2009, 04:24 PM
I would be wary of "Christian Right" types who want to control people's lives through government, and of Neocons who agree with us on economics and maybe even some social issues, but who want to continue the warmongering that brought down the GOP.

Actually, if we've learned anything from Dr. Paul, hopefully we learned that we can work with most anyone on a SPECIFIC ISSUE. Think about it, Dr. Paul has worked with people like Kucinich, who he disagrees with on most everything except foreign policy, and just look at who he's working with on 1207. :eek:


No, but we've got several regular posters on RPFs who take that approach. :eek::(:p
As opposed to others who try their very best to get people to sit on their backsides and do NOTHING at all. :eek::(:p

free.alive
06-09-2009, 04:37 PM
Sorry for my strong emotion in my previous post.

Before I start, think back to this powerful slogan:


LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIME

I should have mentioned, previously, that educating voters IS important.

However, as Mike Rothfeld at the C4L conference put it when he asked if there was ANYONE close to you who you couldn't persuade about the merits of Liberty, how could you possibly expect to persuade enough people you don't know to actually effect change.

That, and consider how many among us know the truth about many issues and have the right political philosophy, but still prefer to do nothing, or find reasons to support the status quo (much less of the latter among our people, though).

We are a tiny fraction of the general population. It would take a lifetime or more to persuade enough people to do the right thing, and even then we don't know if enough people would actually act, or at least vote in our favor.

Political power is the key, then. We need to gain it. We will always be doing battle against the collectivists. Always. Even after we're dead, those of us who become the future "remnant" will be fighting the same battles - though, in a stronger position if we're effective now.

How can we be effective? How can we accrue political power? Successfully engaging in electoral politics.

If you want to win in electoral politics in the US, or really anywhere in the world for that matter, what do you have to do? Work within a political party.

If you want to WIN in electoral politics in America, what parties are available to you? Republican or Democrat.

Either/or, but only these two. Only.

So, then I must ask, assuming actually making change is our goal (you better believe it is MINE!), which of those two parties would be the easiest for us to guide, control, take-over, own - whatever you want to call it? Which party can we most smoothly, in the context of today's American political milieu, do this?

To ask the question is to answer it.

Join the GOP. Run the GOP.


LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIME

heavenlyboy34
06-09-2009, 04:52 PM
As opposed to others who try their very best to get people to sit on their backsides and do NOTHING at all. :eek::(:p

A classless and unjustified backhand. I should expect nothing less from thee. :p:rolleyes: You've already forgotten that I volunteered my services to RPFers and make my materials available for freedom projects 24/7/365 in my sig, I see. I also encourage real reforms, not participating in the State's crimes. Perhaps your grip on truth and reality is too loose to maintain "mod" status any longer. :(

Who wants LE's mod position? Anyone?:confused:

LittleLightShining
06-10-2009, 02:17 AM
Sorry for my strong emotion in my previous post.

Before I start, think back to this powerful slogan:


LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIME

I should have mentioned, previously, that educating voters IS important.

However, as Mike Rothfeld at the C4L conference put it when he asked if there was ANYONE close to you who you couldn't persuade about the merits of Liberty, how could you possibly expect to persuade enough people you don't know to actually effect change.

That, and consider how many among us know the truth about many issues and have the right political philosophy, but still prefer to do nothing, or find reasons to support the status quo (much less of the latter among our people, though).

We are a tiny fraction of the general population. It would take a lifetime or more to persuade enough people to do the right thing, and even then we don't know if enough people would actually act, or at least vote in our favor.

Political power is the key, then. We need to gain it. We will always be doing battle against the collectivists. Always. Even after we're dead, those of us who become the future "remnant" will be fighting the same battles - though, in a stronger position if we're effective now.

How can we be effective? How can we accrue political power? Successfully engaging in electoral politics.

If you want to win in electoral politics in the US, or really anywhere in the world for that matter, what do you have to do? Work within a political party.

If you want to WIN in electoral politics in America, what parties are available to you? Republican or Democrat.

Either/or, but only these two. Only.

So, then I must ask, assuming actually making change is our goal (you better believe it is MINE!), which of those two parties would be the easiest for us to guide, control, take-over, own - whatever you want to call it? Which party can we most smoothly, in the context of today's American political milieu, do this?

To ask the question is to answer it.

Join the GOP. Run the GOP.


LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIMEThis is what I'm talking about. Except that this isn't a suggestion anymore. Electoral politics isn't the only way to gain liberty in our lifetime. We need a critical mass. If the people don't understand what's happening to them why shouldn't they continue to vote for the person who promises the moon and stars?


No reason you can't do both, right? As an independent local or state organization, whether you've decided to link up with C4L or not, I don't see why you can't do whatever it is that you want to do. Mix the heck out of it LLS, if that's what you think will work best for your state.

That's what we thought but do you know they check up on how much the membership uses the site? THAT's why they don't have a remember me button. They want to monitor the members. We've been told that our local coordinators don't use the site enough.

We're also now tied into being a 501c3 which means we're limited in how work on electoral politics as an organization. If we want to do direct work we need to become a c4. The whole thing is pretty complicated but they can take your state organization from you at any time if they don't like what you're doing-- even if tthey don't realize what you're doing is working.

I don't know. I have a bad taste in my mouth. Our group here in VT is mostly third party people who aren't interested in the GOP. We're the C4L not the RLC.

Conza88
06-10-2009, 03:06 AM
Absolutlely hilarious.

The US government hasn't followed the U.S Constitution for generations, and yet folks think that if they make a new one, with more "teeth" it will suddenly adhere to the new one, albiet not even old one? Bahahaa!!!!

Have fcken retarded do you have to be? I mean realllllllyyyyyyyyy......................

Check yourself into the nearest mental health institution.

free.alive
06-10-2009, 03:29 AM
We're also now tied into being a 501c3 which means we're limited in how work on electoral politics as an organization. If we want to do direct work we need to become a c4.

Correction: C4L is a c4. The main difference between this and a c3 is that donors to a c3 can write it off on their taxes because the organizations report to the gov. A c4 doesn't report, but its donors can't write off the donations. However, c4 donors are protected in that no records have to be released, even to the state.

Both are effectively politically neutered. Which is why most organizations now have a c3, a c4 and a PAC. Here in Washington, the larger counties have called themselves (county) Liberty Campaign AND we're starting PACs. The PACs are going to be owned by LLCs formed by our local members.

These PACs can endorse candidates, fight candidates, endorse ballot measures - you name it! Balls WITH teeth! (what an image...)



they can take your state organization from you at any time if they don't like what you're doing-- even if they don't realize what you're doing is working.

Not exactly - at least not forever. WA will be one of the first 4 states to officially charter their independent organization. The criteria the national org. set is meeting some arbitrary threshold of "local coordinators." C4L has put in place some stipulations for us to use the name (basically, don't support or oppose anything that contravenes the national org.). Aside from these minor and imho obvious points, we will be our own entity. We intend to immediately work on organizing in the fashion mentioned above. Also, we're hoping to fund paid full-time staff.

I would eventually like to see some of our members starting 527's as well. Being an ancap, I have the tendency to want to see every ad we may put out be extremely negative toward many targets. ...the better to undermine the credibility of the state with!

The politicians, bureaucrats and special interests have made it difficult to challenge and oppose their authority. But they have left some cracks. We should be planting oceans of seeds in those cracks. If it takes running a party that in its current form supports disastrous policies totally incomprehensible in terms of Liberty, then so be it.



Our group here in VT is mostly third party people who aren't interested in the GOP.

If this is true, then you're state will always be socialist and you'll forever be relegated to the margins. No voice; no power? Then you have no real means of changing a damn thing.

These ideas of "critical mass" are nothing but illusions. I bet even the mobs in the greatest mass movements in history were still small minorities - just vocal and visible ones. The tendencies of people, politicians, businesses, bureaucrats, industries - you name it - are to take the path of least resistance. Government always provides this to the friends of the people who take control of it.

We are unique in that so many in our movement don't even acknowledge the legitimacy of the state. In both parties, right now and on into the past, it has always been agreed upon that positive action by the state is a good thing. For the most part, competition arises both between various parties and within them between the view that the positive action of the state should be controlled by a few, or controlled by the many.

We may be different from any movement in history, bar Jeffersonianism (more extreme classical liberalism). In fact, it could be said that what many of us advocate is merely a "radical" form of that same philosophy.

It won before, at least for a brief time in and in a watered-down form; and it was won by the push from a small fraction of the population. They had to fight a war to do it. We have a political structure which would allow us to achieve the same goals WITHOUT any, and definitely much, bloodshed.

You can educate the public until you're blue in the face. In fact you will be, and stone-cold dead long before this pays off in any meaningful way. We need to take the reins of the channels of power. One of those reins is just dangling on the ground waiting for a steady, determined hand to grasp it.

Grasp it.

free.alive
06-10-2009, 03:30 AM
Conza, you enjoying yourself over there on the couch?

pacelli
06-10-2009, 03:41 AM
Yeah, the Con Con does have the smell of a bait and switch tactic, doesn't it? Try to give the Constitution teeth and you could lose it completely...

One thing's for certain. If they succeed in painting the C4L as another G.O.P. lapdog organization, that will kill it. The C4L could well be useful as a bridge across the aisle; if you don't like the G.O.P. help us return it to the ranks of respectable organizations. Hang the taint on it from the start and it won't even get touched by ten foot poles.

So, what? Is there no one around here who's active in it? Is the organization in fact not considered to be worth their trouble? Or are they being uncharacteristically subtle for neocons?

I'm not a part of it because I see it as a repeat of the past and it isn't worth my time. Same actors, same play, different title. I don't think they are committed to actively confronting "representatives". They're playing the same Mr Nice Guy game that they played during the campaign (I use the word 'they' because while the C4L is not the campaign, most of the people in the C4L ran the campaign).

The concept of groupthink comes to mind: Individuals involved in highly cohesive groups will do anything to maintain the cohesiveness of the group, even if it means withholding their opinions that might be more effective than the popular choice of the group. I caught wind of this phenomenon when Jonathan Bydlak posted his detailed postmortem on these forums after he left the campaign.

LittleLightShining
06-10-2009, 04:04 AM
Ok, point taken about the c3/c4 issue. I got mixed up.
Correction: C4L is a c4. The main difference between this and a c3 is that donors to a c3 can write it off on their taxes because the organizations report to the gov. A c4 doesn't report, but its donors can't write off the donations. However, c4 donors are protected in that no records have to be released, even to the state.

Both are effectively politically neutered. Which is why most organizations now have a c3, a c4 and a PAC. Here in Washington, the larger counties have called themselves (county) Liberty Campaign AND we're starting PACs. The PACs are going to be owned by LLCs formed by our local members.

These PACs can endorse candidates, fight candidates, endorse ballot measures - you name it! Balls WITH teeth! (what an image...)




Not exactly - at least not forever. WA will be one of the first 4 states to officially charter their independent organization. The criteria the national org. set is meeting some arbitrary threshold of "local coordinators." C4L has put in place some stipulations for us to use the name (basically, don't support or oppose anything that contravenes the national org.). Aside from these minor and imho obvious points, we will be our own entity. We intend to immediately work on organizing in the fashion mentioned above. Also, we're hoping to fund paid full-time staff.

I would eventually like to see some of our members starting 527's as well. Being an ancap, I have the tendency to want to see every ad we may put out be extremely negative toward many targets. ...the better to undermine the credibility of the state with!

The politicians, bureaucrats and special interests have made it difficult to challenge and oppose their authority. But they have left some cracks. We should be planting oceans of seeds in those cracks. If it takes running a party that in its current form supports disastrous policies totally incomprehensible in terms of Liberty, then so be it.




If this is true, then you're state will always be socialist and you'll forever be relegated to the margins. No voice; no power? Then you have no real means of changing a damn thing.

These ideas of "critical mass" are nothing but illusions. I bet even the mobs in the greatest mass movements in history were still small minorities - just vocal and visible ones. The tendencies of people, politicians, businesses, bureaucrats, industries - you name it - are to take the path of least resistance. Government always provides this to the friends of the people who take control of it.

We are unique in that so many in our movement don't even acknowledge the legitimacy of the state. In both parties, right now and on into the past, it has always been agreed upon that positive action by the state is a good thing. For the most part, competition arises both between various parties and within them between the view that the positive action of the state should be controlled by a few, or controlled by the many.

We may be different from any movement in history, bar Jeffersonianism (more extreme classical liberalism). In fact, it could be said that what many of us advocate is merely a "radical" form of that same philosophy.

It won before, at least for a brief time in and in a watered-down form; and it was won by the push from a small fraction of the population. They had to fight a war to do it. We have a political structure which would allow us to achieve the same goals WITHOUT any, and definitely much, bloodshed.

You can educate the public until you're blue in the face. In fact you will be, and stone-cold dead long before this pays off in any meaningful way. We need to take the reins of the channels of power. One of those reins is just dangling on the ground waiting for a steady, determined hand to grasp it.

Grasp it.You know, I think I'm pretty well known here for my tolerance of asshattery but you sure have all the answers, don't you? You're the problem. It's your attitude that is changing the organization's focus. You want to take over the GOP in Washington GO AHEAD. Don't push every other state to take on your approach.

Look, I'm in the GOP. I'm on the executive committee in my county. I'm working on taking the chair. I know what's going on in the GOP in this state and it ain't pretty. The brand is so tainted. Does that stop me from trying to fix it? No. But it does turn people off immediately from listening to us. I've been advocating for party involvement since we first started organizing here. But it's not our focus or our mission.

Do your thing in Washington and don't dictate what we should be doing here. Critical mass is essential. Without an informed electorate we will never beat the socialists. You have to have voters to get the frickin votes. :mad:

speciallyblend
06-10-2009, 05:15 AM
Ok, point taken about the c3/c4 issue. I got mixed up.You know, I think I'm pretty well known here for my tolerance of asshattery but you sure have all the answers, don't you? You're the problem. It's your attitude that is changing the organization's focus. You want to take over the GOP in Washington GO AHEAD. Don't push every other state to take on your approach.

Look, I'm in the GOP. I'm on the executive committee in my county. I'm working on taking the chair. I know what's going on in the GOP in this state and it ain't pretty. The brand is so tainted. Does that stop me from trying to fix it? No. But it does turn people off immediately from listening to us. I've been advocating for party involvement since we first started organizing here. But it's not our focus or our mission.

Do your thing in Washington and don't dictate what we should be doing here. Critical mass is essential. Without an informed electorate we will never beat the socialists. You have to have voters to get the frickin votes. :mad:

yep i hear you. i am so tired of everyone thinking the politics in every state/county is the same! it is not! each state/county must be dealt differently and in some states/counties the dems are our friends and in some the gop isn't and vice versa!. politics is local,but it seems some forget this!!

in Colorado i think the gop might become a 3RD PARTY IF THEY DO NOT CHANGE THEIR WAYS SOON AND I DO NOT SEE THAT HAPPENING IN THE NEXT 4-12 YRS,BUT MIRACLES CAN HAPPEN OOPS CAPS!

Conza88
06-10-2009, 07:20 AM
Conza, you enjoying yourself over there on the couch?

No. Watching a train wreck isn't appealing. Especially when you are on the last carriage & see it coming. :rolleyes:

free.alive
06-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Ouch LLS -

You should know by now however, that argument and persuasion are methods opposite force. Disagree with me. Don't accuse of me of trying to force anything.

LittleLightShining
06-10-2009, 10:27 AM
Ouch LLS -

You should know by now however, that argument and persuasion are methods opposite force. Disagree with me. Don't accuse of me of trying to force anything.Well, you've made it abundantly clear that you believe electoral politics is the only way to win and I'm saying you're wrong. There are things going on in other states, the climate is completely different from one place to another.

When we began organizing we were assured that each state would be free to take whatever path the members felt would work. I am increasingly feeling like that's not the case and the more you argue for your cookie cutter approach the more you weaken the organization as a whole. Sitka spruces don't grow in Vermont.

free.alive
06-10-2009, 01:31 PM
Well, you've made it abundantly clear... and I'm saying you're wrong.

And I'm saying I recognize that. I disagree, but I don't know your state. Based on what I'm hearing in other states, based on the experience and knowledge I've gained, and based my understanding of how groups can win in politics, I'm confident I'm not wrong. if I sound like I have all the answers, forgive me for my lack of doubt.



I am increasingly feeling like that's not the case and the more you argue for

There's no way I can force anyone to do anything. If your conviction to your views is fragile enough that my mere arguing for another approach is threatening it, maybe you should REALLY rethink your position, then! You're offering the first inside account I've heard of the GOP going the way of a third party - this election cycle. Obviously, Vermont is probably the state where this could most-likely happen. Maybe the state is already too far Left for the GOP to ever be relevant. You're right, I don't know your state.

I'm not sure which state GOP's have to reorganize still. We started in December and finished in January. We, as an organization of individuals in the 50 states, really should work together to create a "Party Take-Over" calendar that lists all the pertinent dates in each state. I know that the process in WA begins soon (from a recruiting perspective), because mid December there will be a deadline this year, which I'm not going to say, that will be inegral to our efforts.

In WA, the state conventions (R and D) will be in May. The ballot filing date for precinct committee officer (PCO) will be in June. The Primary election which elects PCO's will be in August. County party reorganization meetings where newly elected PCO's get sworn in and vote on their new leadership are in December. The State reorganization will be in January - of 2011.

It's a protracted battle - and that's just one electoral cycle...

Understanding that process, winning that battle begins this year. Although the process is likely very different, the span by which we should be organizing through the process and accruing our influence at each level likely begins this year.

No matter what is going on in your corner of the world, we need to be organizing for party-takeover (and 90% in the GOP) pretty much everywhere. I will not back down from that. If Vermont has already defeated the two-party system, and has strong third parties - great! I would recommend taking over any credible party in that scenario. Sounds like you're already on your way, but just having buyer's remorse.

I disagree that party and electoral politics is not the answer. At least to stopping the train that's coming. If Conza thinks that Atlas will eventually shrug and afterward the people will come to their senses and sing Cumbaya for liberty, let him sit on his couch and be amused by all the work people are doing. His laughter will make no difference. Literally.

We will always be the minority because we don't want government to do anything for us - or anyone else. There will be no mass movement - at least one that will actually advocate freedom. The tea parties/9-12/patriotic resistance are flush with a neocon foreign policy view and fervent support of their "leaders." Some of them are persuaded by us; others like what we have to say, BUT... I think the implications of freedom are just scary to some people. A shame, really.

Yes, we need to be varied and fluid in our approach. We need to know what works, though. We need to understand now that there will be no libertarian epiphany among the populace - or at least we should organize under that mindset. We need to lead the political apparatus, not the rally.

LittleLightShining
06-10-2009, 02:11 PM
I'm not interested in an organized effort by the C4L to "take over the GOP". If that continues to be pushed by HQ as a primary objective they're likely going to lose the team in VT.

LittleLightShining
01-27-2010, 05:10 PM
Bump

Reason
01-27-2010, 07:27 PM
//

squarepusher
01-27-2010, 07:29 PM
its cointelpro

MsDoodahs
01-27-2010, 07:55 PM
To answer the OP's question FROM BACK IN JUNE...."Is CFL being infiltrated?"

I THINK WE HAVE THE ANSWER NOW.

:mad:

Athan
01-27-2010, 10:49 PM
Its cool, I vote Libertarian anyway.

The neo-cons can be dealt with easier after the dollar collapses.

low preference guy
01-27-2010, 11:01 PM
angelatc, I just saw the thread you started (http://www.dailypaul.com/node/123033)at the Daily Paul. Great title choice. Now they're going crazy too.