Would you be interested in moving to free up a city in a warm climate?

[RevolutionSD]

I mentioned this on another thread, but wanted to gauge interest here.

We were discussing out here in Southern California all the many problems with the FSP, including large geographical area, crap weather, steeped in north eastern traditionalism, etc. So why not start a little smaller in a more desirable place, and start a "Free City" project where the goal is to create a voluntary society?

I'm thinking of a city in SoCal with a population of around 20k or so, either on or not far from the beach, where the political climate is not extreme right or left.

Actions would involve exposing the bureaucrats through a free media outlet, along with some targeted civil disobedience.

Would you be interested in moving for something like this?

[RideTheDirt]

I mentioned this on another thread, but wanted to gauge interest here.

We were discussing out here in Southern California all the many problems with the FSP, including large geographical area, crap weather, steeped in north eastern traditionalism, etc. So why not start a little smaller in a more desirable place, and start a "Free City" project where the goal is to create a voluntary society?

I'm thinking of a city in SoCal with a population of around 20k or so, either on or not far from the beach, where the political climate is not extreme right or left.

Actions would involve exposing the bureaucrats through a free media outlet, along with some targeted civil disobedience.

Would you be interested in moving for something like this?
I live in escondido, our police don't give a shit about the constitution, they pretty much told me so. We have "driver's liscence checkpoints.

Where do you propose we take over? I am very open to this idea.

[brandon]

Why California?

[heavenlyboy34]

I mentioned this on another thread, but wanted to gauge interest here.

We were discussing out here in Southern California all the many problems with the FSP, including large geographical area, crap weather, steeped in north eastern traditionalism, etc. So why not start a little smaller in a more desirable place, and start a "Free City" project where the goal is to create a voluntary society?

I'm thinking of a city in SoCal with a population of around 20k or so, either on or not far from the beach, where the political climate is not extreme right or left.

Actions would involve exposing the bureaucrats through a free media outlet, along with some targeted civil disobedience.

Would you be interested in moving for something like this?

SoCal is too close to the border, and it's a breeding ground for the Feds who supposedly guard the border. (making it easy for them to round up Free staters) California is also an economic disaster, thanks to their Government. If you can take care of that, I think NorCal would be more enjoyable for me. (it's not a long move either-only over the State line from AZ :cool:)

[dannno]

How about somewhere near Los Osos? It's not so cal, but it's close and I don't think you'll find what you're looking for in so cal.

The other alternative would be northern california..

[acptulsa]

Why California?

That's like storming a place by picking the very highest point on the fence surrounding it to climb, instead of finding the lowest. It'll take you years just to get to where Tulsa is today.

[RevolutionSD]

Why California?

Good question. Here's our reasoning:

1) The West is much more about moving here and starting new than the East and especially the North East. There isn't much traditionalism here like there is in New Hampshire. Despite Calyfornia's insane political climate, there are more entrepreneurs here per capita than any other state.

2) We are not trying to free up the whole state, just a small city. It's not an easy task, but still easier than what they are trying to do in NH.

3) The weather is much preferable here than NH. For me, moving to NH would be a huge decline in my lifestyle, therefore, I have no interest in moving there. I think Southern CA would be much more attractive to liberty activisits.

4) Believe it or not, we have a good-sized libertarian community here already, including a good group of voluntaryist/anarcho-capitalists who "get it". Of course we are still surrounded by statists, just like everywhere else, but you have to start somehwere.

5) We're not trying to change people's minds through politics, so it's irrelevant how socialist the politicians are out here. In fact, it may work to our advantage the fact that we are the most socialist state in the union. You can see blatantly how it fails, time after time.

[RevolutionSD]

That's like storming a place by picking the very highest point on the fence surrounding it to climb, instead of finding the lowest. It'll take you years just to get to where Tulsa is today.

No, I don't agree. Tulsa is still a city run by bureaucrats, who have their own best interest in mind and not the people's. We are not shooting for a city with "smaller government", our goal would be to change the very meme of government and how people view it.

[constituent]

Sounds like a good idea.

I'd consider starting a corporation to do it though.

Good luck.

[acptulsa]

No, I don't agree. Tulsa is still a city run by bureaucrats, who have their own best interest in mind and not the people's. We are not shooting for a city with "smaller government", our goal would be to change the very meme of government and how people view it.

I was actually thinking of the state interference, not the relative merits of the cities. Anywhere under the thumb of Sacramento you've got a hell of a monkey on your back, just as you would anywhere under the control of Albany or Harrisburg. The whole rest of the West is full of states that would be a major improvement.

[paulitics]

Good question. Here's our reasoning:

1) The West is much more about moving here and starting new than the East and especially the North East. There isn't much traditionalism here like there is in New Hampshire. Despite Calyfornia's insane political climate, there are more entrepreneurs here per capita than any other state.

2) We are not trying to free up the whole state, just a small city. It's not an easy task, but still easier than what they are trying to do in NH.

3) The weather is much preferable here than NH. For me, moving to NH would be a huge decline in my lifestyle, therefore, I have no interest in moving there. I think Southern CA would be much more attractive to liberty activisits.

4) Believe it or not, we have a good-sized libertarian community here already, including a good group of voluntaryist/anarcho-capitalists who "get it". Of course we are still surrounded by statists, just like everywhere else, but you have to start somehwere.

5) We're not trying to change people's minds through politics, so it's irrelevant how socialist the politicians are out here. In fact, it may work to our advantage the fact that we are the most socialist state in the union. You can see blatantly how it fails, time after time.


Taxes are outrageous, and the state is bankrupt. California was benefiting off being a Chinese import hub, and was the reason why the economy was so strong. This is ending, because Texas is going to take its place.

Keep in mind worst case scenario of economic calamity or terrorist attack. California will likely be completely under military control as soon as SHTF or there is a terrorist attack.

[tremendoustie]

NH is one of the most beautiful states in the union, and I've lived both there and in SoCal! Y'all are silly.

[tremendoustie]

A few NH pics, just for reference ;)

http://tripcart.typepad.com/tripcart_the_blog/images/2007/09/11/sawyer_pond_by_cruadinx_at_flickr.jpg

http://www.mwvphotography.com/images/Jackson,-NH-Ski_sm.jpg

http://www.saugus.net/Photos/new_hampshire/Hampton_Beach/new_hampshire_stock.jpg

http://www.sunapeegetaways.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/aerial-view-of-sunapee.jpg

http://techelectronicsstl.com/pikepond/wp-content/uploads/image/iStock_000004144833Small.jpg

http://www.dskendall.com/images/nh_bondcliff.jpg

http://hikethewhites.com/pemi/p07.jpg

http://www.cosmos.com/Common/Images/Destinations/autumn%20colors-white%20mountains-new%20hampshire.jpg

[RevolutionSD]

I was actually thinking of the state interference, not the relative merits of the cities. Anywhere under the thumb of Sacramento you've got a hell of a monkey on your back, just as you would anywhere under the control of Albany or Harrisburg. The whole rest of the West is full of states that would be a major improvement.

It's really not about the state gov't though. We're talking about changing the ideas in a relatively small community, and not even tackling the nonsense of the state.

What is your opinion about the FSP in NH?

[RevolutionSD]

Taxes are outrageous, and the state is bankrupt. California was benefiting off being a Chinese import hub, and was the reason why the economy was so strong. This is ending, because Texas is going to take its place.

Keep in mind worst case scenario of economic calamity or terrorist attack. California will likely be completely under military control as soon as SHTF or there is a terrorist attack.

You're right, but despite all that, people continue to move to CA above any other state, including Texas, to start over and make a new life for themselves. CA's socialist gov't is not a good reason to not attempt a free city project within the state.

Again, we're not trying to change the whole state or challenge the state government, we're just shooting for changing ideas in a relatively small community that may be a better place to begin than NH for all the reasons I listed.

[acptulsa]

It's really not about the state gov't though. We're talking about changing the ideas in a relatively small community, and not even tackling the nonsense of the state.

What is your opinion about the FSP in NH?

Well, I still don't know why you'd do it in one of the five (three?) most anti-libertarian, big-state-government states in the whole Union.

And I don't know if New Hampshire is really the right place for it, but it's an interesting idea.

[RevolutionSD]

A few NH pics, just for reference ;)

http://tripcart.typepad.com/tripcart_the_blog/images/2007/09/11/sawyer_pond_by_cruadinx_at_flickr.jpg

http://www.mwvphotography.com/images/Jackson,-NH-Ski_sm.jpg

http://www.saugus.net/Photos/new_hampshire/Hampton_Beach/new_hampshire_stock.jpg

http://www.sunapeegetaways.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/aerial-view-of-sunapee.jpg

http://techelectronicsstl.com/pikepond/wp-content/uploads/image/iStock_000004144833Small.jpg

http://www.dskendall.com/images/nh_bondcliff.jpg

http://hikethewhites.com/pemi/p07.jpg

http://www.cosmos.com/Common/Images/Destinations/autumn%20colors-white%20mountains-new%20hampshire.jpg

This isn't a beauty contest. I could show you pics of the CA coastline that are breathtaking, but that has nothing to do with the Free City idea.

Warm weather, however, is definitely a benefit in recruiting activists (along with the other reasons I listed).

[krazy kaju]

My biggest problem with FSP is the crappy weather. I've lived in Michigan my whole life, and I just won't be able to take high humidity, cold weather, and the horrible allergy season any longer. I'm more interested in moving to New Mexico or Arizona, since any libertarian movement there would have greater pull than in California or Texas.

[cheapseats]

Yes.

[RevolutionSD]

Well, I still don't know why you'd do it in one of the five (three?) most anti-libertarian, big-state-government states in the whole Union.

And I don't know if New Hampshire is really the right place for it, but it's an interesting idea.

I guess you didn't read the post where I explained that? Keep in mind the government and the people are NOT the same thing. And there's a huge difference between political attitudes among people in various parts of the state (i.e. i would not recommend doing a free city project in say SF, but smaller, less politically-charged communities are ripe for it).

Also keep in mind that the majority of people in ANY community are apathetic and do not even vote.

[RevolutionSD]

My biggest problem with FSP is the crappy weather. I've lived in Michigan my whole life, and I just won't be able to take high humidity, cold weather, and the horrible allergy season any longer. I'm more interested in moving to New Mexico or Arizona, since any libertarian movement there would have greater pull than in California or Texas.

But then you're still trying to tackle an entire state, which is monumental.
Again, it's more about the idea of changing ideas in a small area. Everywhere in the U.S., even small towns in Idaho, most people believe we NEED government to run our lives in some capacity.

This would be taking a small community and changing the ideas among the people. It really makes no difference if it is in AZ or CA, both states are run by authoritarian sociopaths.

[RevolutionSD]

For anyone who thinks we can't free up a city, why do you think we have any chance in the world of freeing up a state, or an entire COUNTRY?

[steph3n]

hahahaha too funny, freedom in CA?! Talk about Don Quixote.

[steph3n]

For anyone who thinks we can't free up a city, why do you think we have any chance in the world of freeing up a state, or an entire COUNTRY?

problem is a city has ZERO constitutional power from the feds.

[disorderlyvision]

You couldn't pay me enough to move to California:eek:

[acptulsa]

problem is a city has ZERO constitutional power from the feds.

No doubt. Why not a county? That way you'd have the sheriff handy to prevent Ahnold from terminating you.

[BenIsForRon]

I like the idea. If you want it to be a strong, independent city, you would have to change zoning laws to encourage agriculture outside the city and business inside the city. Too much of our resources are wasted building suburbs and strip malls that throw money down the toilet.

I know many of you are against zoning, but I don't think there is any other way to prevent a city from becoming a disorganized mess. If you did zoning right, you could set up the atmosphere that would encourage many libertarian and progressive people to enter the area.

[tremendoustie]

My biggest problem with FSP is the crappy weather. I've lived in Michigan my whole life, and I just won't be able to take high humidity, cold weather, and the horrible allergy season any longer. I'm more interested in moving to New Mexico or Arizona, since any libertarian movement there would have greater pull than in California or Texas..

I think NH weather is a great deal better than Michigan, especially if it's anything like Chicago weather, where I lived for a number of years.


This isn't a beauty contest. I could show you pics of the CA coastline that are breathtaking, but that has nothing to do with the Free City idea.

Warm weather, however, is definitely a benefit in recruiting activists (along with the other reasons I listed).

Hey, wherever you guys go, I hope you succeed (and secede, heh, ok bad joke), but I'd at least visit NH for a while before you go somewhere else. I've lived a lot of places, and I'd say I like both the weather and environment there are the best. It can be really nice, having the variety of four square seasons. SoCal sweltering summers and drizzly semi-cool winters can get tiresome after a while, having experienced both.

[cheapseats]

California is the longest shot imaginable. What say, for the same price, we play the odds.

[RevolutionSD]

I think NH weather is a great deal better than Michigan, especially if it's anything like Chicago weather, where I lived for a number of years.



Hey, wherever you guys go, I hope you succeed (and secede, heh, ok bad joke), but I'd at least visit NH for a while before you go somewhere else. I've lived a lot of places, and I'd say I like both the weather and environment there are the best. It can be really nice, having the variety of four square seasons. SoCal sweltering summers and drizzly semi-cool winters can get tiresome after a while, having experienced both.

Well, coastal socal does not have "sweltering" summers, more like highs of 75-80 in July and August with little or no humidity!

You may prefer cold weather but I'm talking about most people who prefer warm weather. Tough enough to get liberty activists together, let alone in one of the coldest states in the US.

[RevolutionSD]

California is the longest shot imaginable. What say, for the same price, we play the odds.

Again, we're not talking about changing the politics of california- we're talking about chaning the IDEA in people's heads that we need a government- and in a small community, not the whole state.

Even the smallest government city in the U.S. still has thousands of pain in the ass aspects that prevent people living there from being free, and prevent businesses from thriving.

Again, the idea is NOT to shrink government, but to get rid of it. This is a huge challenge but having a small government to begin with doesn't make it any easier, in fact, it may be EASIER in a socialist city than a more republican one.

[dannno]

SoCal sweltering summers and drizzly semi-cool winters can get tiresome after a while

Where were you in SoCal?? Drizzly winters?? Maybe in Central or Northern California, but Southern California gets very little rain, and the summers near the coast rarely get over 76 degrees.

[BenIsForRon]

CA has more growing seasons, which is important if you want to be independent of the system.

[1000-points-of-fright]

Again, we're not talking about changing the politics of california- we're talking about chaning the IDEA in people's heads that we need a government- and in a small community, not the whole state.

Even the smallest government city in the U.S. still has thousands of pain in the ass aspects that prevent people living there from being free, and prevent businesses from thriving.

Again, the idea is NOT to shrink government, but to get rid of it. This is a huge challenge but having a small government to begin with doesn't make it any easier, in fact, it may be EASIER in a socialist city than a more republican one.

I understand what your saying, but I'm not sure you understand what the critics of your plan are trying to tell you. You can't start a free city in what is arguably the most un-free state in the country. Sacramento will always be on your back preventing you from doing what you want to do.

Better to try starting a free city in a relatively semi-free state.

[tremendoustie]

Well, coastal socal does not have "sweltering" summers, more like highs of 75-80 in July and August with little or no humidity!

You may prefer cold weather but I'm talking about most people who prefer warm weather. Tough enough to get liberty activists together, let alone in one of the coldest states in the US.

Dude, visit, seriously. Average highs in NH for May through September are 71, 78, 84, 81, and 74. It's not that cold, spring is beautiful, people come from all over the world for the fall foliage, and in winter you just wear a jacket and turn on the heat -- same as you turn on the AC here. Plus, you get to go skiing and skating and all that other fun stuff.

I checked, and you're right on the highs here (I'm in LA btw, danno), but it certainly has seemed hotter -- maybe just in the city. We definitely do get a lot of cold rain in the winter here.

All I'm saying is, I've lived all over, and southern people seem to think northern states are unlivable iceboxes, when it's really not even close to the truth. Real seasons can be fun ;). You know, variety, spice of life, and all that.

And as far as local influence goes, you can't beat 400 unpaid house members in a state of 1 million. A lot of them go uncontested. Most municipalities still hold old school town hall meetings.

Anyhow, there are a lot of good things about CA too, and I hope you succeed. I'm just saying, don't rule out NH out of hand, without having been there. It's a beautiful state.

[Elwar]

I mentioned this on another thread, but wanted to gauge interest here.

We were discussing out here in Southern California all the many problems with the FSP, including large geographical area, crap weather, steeped in north eastern traditionalism, etc. So why not start a little smaller in a more desirable place, and start a "Free City" project where the goal is to create a voluntary society?

I'm thinking of a city in SoCal with a population of around 20k or so, either on or not far from the beach, where the political climate is not extreme right or left.

Actions would involve exposing the bureaucrats through a free media outlet, along with some targeted civil disobedience.

Would you be interested in moving for something like this?


Let me guess...you live in Southern California and wish there were enough people nearby who vote like you, but you don't want to have to go through the trouble of moving...so why not just ask 20 thousand people to move to where you are?

[ChaosControl]

Go with Nevada instead of California, no state income tax that way. And you can visit Vegas when you're bored of sitting in the desert.

California has WAY too high taxes for me to support moving there.

[DirtMcGirt]

I think it would be kinda neat to have a city in the "Free State" and one in a warm climate to be sister cities.

[cheapseats]

Again, we're not talking about changing the politics of california- we're talking about chaning the IDEA in people's heads that we need a government- and in a small community, not the whole state.

Even the smallest government city in the U.S. still has thousands of pain in the ass aspects that prevent people living there from being free, and prevent businesses from thriving.

Again, the idea is NOT to shrink government, but to get rid of it. This is a huge challenge but having a small government to begin with doesn't make it any easier, in fact, it may be EASIER in a socialist city than a more republican one.

I'm agreeing with you, absolutely, about the a TOWNSHIP. I am disagreeing that California is a good place to give it a whirl. It's not.

Unincorporated townships, plural. The more, the merrier.

I'm all for cutting to the chase. Which ideas are tenable, and which are not. Now, which is when I am more like ENDURING than living, only Washington DC itself would be worse than California as a choice.

[RevolutionSD]

I understand what your saying, but I'm not sure you understand what the critics of your plan are trying to tell you. You can't start a free city in what is arguably the most un-free state in the country. Sacramento will always be on your back preventing you from doing what you want to do.

Better to try starting a free city in a relatively semi-free state.

I don't think you're getting it. People in CA are well aware of the disastrous state gov't in Sacramento, and they see the absolute blatant bullshit the politicians try to pull on us all the time. It would actually be BETTER to do a free city project in a place like this where you don't have to go around selling people in the idea that government is bad. And, again, the state government is not relevant to this plan. We are simply trying to free up a small city, based on ideas, not on politics or winning city council seats.

[RevolutionSD]

Let me guess...you live in Southern California and wish there were enough people nearby who vote like you, but you don't want to have to go through the trouble of moving...so why not just ask 20 thousand people to move to where you are?

No. I don't vote and I'm not proposing that we get people to move here in order to elect the "right people" to office. I'm proposing that we change people's ideas about government.

You support Gary Johnson and think that he can change the ideas of an entire country, but you're not willing to start small with a city? How does that make any sense?

[BuddyRey]

Well, the climate certainly wouldn't be as much of a "rude awakening" for me as a southerner to move to Southern California as opposed to New Hampshire, but is there an active liberty movement there? Does it even approach what's going on with the Free State Project? If I pick up and move several hundred miles away from the place where I was born and raised, I want to make sure there's a darn good prospect to really achieve the voluntary society we all (well, most of us) desire.