PDA

View Full Version : Scary Giuliani comment




grfgerger
09-21-2007, 08:03 PM
I was just flipping through the channels and saw Rudy on CPSAN-2 talking to the NRA. If anyone has a video of this, I'd appreciate if you could upload/link it to me.

Anyway, when I started watching the speech he was in the middle of saying how much he respects the constitution as a basis for respecting the second amendment. It was the typical gun arguments which I happen to agree with. Then he said something very interesting which was "not on the agenda" as he put it.

He talked about the "betray us" moveon.org ad and said that it was very important because it took speech to a new low. Then he said something very frightening to me. He said that this type of speech should not be allowed. I guess he wants to classify the ad as hate speech or some other form of dis-allowable dialogue.

Now, the ad itself was pretty bad but it did its job very well. It brought some much needed attention to the issue of a military general testifying before congress on behalf of policy makers, or more specifically the Bush Administration. I don't belive that Patreus was being particularly dishonest, but I took much of his testifying as representing Bush policy and not the military troops underneath him.

I do want to stress that Patreus is a much more courageous man than I am and has served his country honorably, but my point is that this type of discussion is necessary and good to have. To rule out negative advertisements for a privately funded political organization on the basis of their speech being offensive to some people is completely wrong and I sincerely hope that I misheard Giuliani when he spoke about it. So yea, if someone has the video, post it up! I'd really like to hear him say it again.

wgadget
09-21-2007, 08:05 PM
Like that's the first time Petraeus had ever been called "Betray Us..." Just imagine the junior high school years.

bbachtung
09-21-2007, 08:10 PM
The full quote is available via the article clickable in my signature.



"They passed a line that we should not allow an American political organization to pass," he said. "We are at war right now, whether some people want to recognize it or not."

grfgerger
09-21-2007, 08:13 PM
The full quote is available via the article clickable in my signature.

Thanks!

kylejack
09-21-2007, 08:13 PM
The full quote is available via the article clickable in my signature.
Hey man, he was on the front lines on 9/11! :rolleyes:

dircha
09-21-2007, 08:20 PM
In my experience, most people have no appreciation for individual liberty and particularly the protection of controversial speech. Giuliani is no different.

For example, about the recent Florida taser incident, every single Republican I talked to about the issue supported the police response and believed that the student deserved to be tased for what he SAID.

Government, for most Americans, is nothing but an extension of their own personal aggression and authority against and over others, through force. The United States of America is increasingly an exercise in simple mob rule, "democracy" at its worst.

1000-points-of-fright
09-21-2007, 08:21 PM
I was watching one of those interviews on CSPAN ( y'know, two guys a table and a big window view of Washington behind them) and a caller who was a veteran said that moveon.org didn't invent the "Gen. Betray us" thing. He said troops in Iraq have been calling him that for a while now. I have no verification of this. I'm just saying.

Or maybe it was on a radio talk show. I don't remember. But the guy said it.

grfgerger
09-21-2007, 08:23 PM
I was watching one of those interviews on CSPAN ( y'know, two guys a table and a big window view of Washington behind them) and a caller who was a veteran said that moveon.org didn't invent the "Gen. Betray us" thing. He said troops in Iraq have been calling him that for a while now. I have no verification of this. I'm just saying.

I wouldn't be surprised. There are a lot of troops who will privately or even publicly say 'what the hell am I doing here?'.

trispear
09-21-2007, 08:33 PM
He said that this type of speech should not be allowed. I guess he wants to classify the ad as hate speech or some other form of dis-allowable dialogue.Even hate speech is protected under the constitution.
Now, the ad itself was pretty bad but it did its job very well.We shouldn't get ourselves mired into debates about the effectiveness of a message. That changes the goalpost and makes the acceptability of certain speech correlate to its effectiveness - rather than the simple fact that regulating speech breaches the first amendment.

And then the opposition only has to show that certain speech isn't effective. In end effect, the First Amendment is the best set of goalposts we have in defending any speech.

paulpwns
09-21-2007, 08:39 PM
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. ~Noam Chomsky

grfgerger
09-21-2007, 08:57 PM
Even hate speech is protected under the constitution.We shouldn't get ourselves mired into debates about the effectiveness of a message. That changes the goalpost and makes the acceptability of certain speech correlate to its effectiveness - rather than the simple fact that regulating speech breaches the first amendment.

And then the opposition only has to show that certain speech isn't effective. In end effect, the First Amendment is the best set of goalposts we have in defending any speech.

Err, I didn't choose the best words for that. I meant that I took what he said to believe that he wants to classify that as hate speech and make that type of speech illegal. I'm not sure how he could possibly twist an advertisement into a clear and present danger, so he'd have to outlaw "hate speech" or something.

trispear
09-21-2007, 09:34 PM
No prob^_^

I was just wary because enough people say "yeah I believe in free speech except if it's hate speech" these days

Also, having lived in Europe where there is no Free Speech (even today), I treasure the 1st amendment the most.

grfgerger
09-21-2007, 09:49 PM
No prob^_^

I was just wary because enough people say "yeah I believe in free speech except if it's hate speech" these days

Also, having lived in Europe where there is no Free Speech (even today), I treasure the 1st amendment the most.

Definitely.