45 years in jail time for voluntary bartering! [Archive]

acptulsa

06-05-2009, 05:31 AM

They sure do a good job of making it sound like barter is illegal, but both court cases (as I understand it) have nothing to do with barter and everything to do with privately minted coins that have the word 'dollar' on them. You can barter with coins that have the word 'dollar' or the word 'dime' on them, but the government mint has to have put it there.

max

06-05-2009, 05:49 AM

i think the last straw was when they stated to put ron paul's face on the coins....

all the ron paul dollars were confiscated

Brooklyn Red Leg

06-05-2009, 06:03 AM

Nice to see some Magistrate wiping his ass with The Constitution. As it stands, the only way out of this is for the Magistrate to declare that there is nothing wrong with the Liberty Dollar (as it is not a bill of credit). However, I'm thinking this judge is bought and paid for and therefore will rule expressly against The Constitution.

max

06-05-2009, 06:23 AM

i just relocated to a new office, and i traded with my landlord.

I let him keep the desk that i left behind in exchange for free rent for my final month ...

according to Fed logic, my desk should be "illegal currency" undermining the dollar....

"liberty desks".....not the most portable of currencies....but it worked for us

Krugerrand

06-05-2009, 06:27 AM

Favorite quotes:

When groups try to replace the U.S. dollar with coins and bills that don't hold the same value, it affects the economy.
They should say "with coins and bills that don't LOSE the same value."

Congress has exclusive power to coin money in the U.S. and to regulate its value, according to the Treasury Department.
Perhaps they should raid the FED.

rancher89

06-05-2009, 06:32 AM

ASHEVILLE — Federal authorities arrested an Asheville man in what they said was a scheme to undermine the U.S. currency system and defraud consumers with so-called Liberty Dollars.

William Kevin Innes marketed the “barter” currency in Western North Carolina and recruited merchants willing to accept it and give it as change for products bought with real money, according to an indictment unsealed this week.
Innes, 53, faces up to 45 years in prison if convicted. He was indicted along with Bernard von NotHaus, president of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Codes, and two other defendants from Indiana associated with the corporation.

Innes made an initial appearance before a federal magistrate judge in Asheville Wednesday and was ordered detained pending a detention hearing set for Monday before a judge in Charlotte, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

Liberty Dollars are coins made of silver or gold and are touted as inflation-proof and a way to encourage buying local goods.
“When groups seek to undermine the U.S. currency system, the government is compelled to act,” said acting U.S. Attorney Edward Ryan of the Western District of North Carolina.

“These coins are not government-produced coinage, yet purchasers were led to believe by those who made and sold them that they should be spent like U.S. Federal Reserve Notes,” Ryan said. “Such claims are in violation of federal law.”
Innes and von NotHaus are charged with uttering and passing coins resembling genuine U.S. coins and intended for use as money, mail fraud and selling and possessing Liberty Dollar coins with intent to defraud.

<snip>

SWATH

06-05-2009, 06:33 AM

OMG it's a "fraud scheme" where hapless victims were misled into trading their valuable government mandated and plated zinc coins for worthless solid gold and silver coins. The humanity.

tmosley

06-05-2009, 06:37 AM

We need a thousand people in front of that courthouse protesting until he is released.

Dr.3D

06-05-2009, 06:42 AM

If gold and silver aren't real money, what is?

Dr.3D

06-05-2009, 07:01 AM

“When groups seek to undermine the U.S. currency system, the government is compelled to act,” said acting U.S. Attorney Edward Ryan of the Western District of North Carolina.

“These coins are not government-produced coinage, yet purchasers were led to believe by those who made and sold them that they should be spent like U.S. Federal Reserve Notes,” Ryan said. “Such claims are in violation of federal law.”

Those were never sold as coin or coinage. Where does this guy get is ignorance from?

We can spend two dozen eggs like U.S. Federal Reserve Notes if we find somebody who wants to accept them. Are they going to go after people who use eggs for currency next?

jmag

06-05-2009, 07:03 AM

Can someone help with a reply to this? What does it mean when the constitution says "No State shall..." Of course congress is nothing more than the representation of the states, so "No State shall..." means "No Congress shall.."? Not my original post put it should be corrected.

While I agree with what's been said about the Fed's paper mony-
"Federal Reserve Notes are un-Constitutional...
"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; --- />make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts"

Congress isn't a "State" --- you're misunderstanding and abusing the Constitution when you misquote that phrase like that.

CONGRESS allowed the Fed to print money under Congressional control when they wrote the Constitution (and signed it).
The Congress did NOT allow States to produce coinage and paper money, which was rampant at the time.
Congress did this almost 200 years ago, too -- not either of the recent Parties.

Misquoting the Constitution only assists the terrorists who would destroy the US entirely.

tmosley

06-05-2009, 07:06 AM

Little pieces of paper that the government tells us are money.

Dr.3D

06-05-2009, 07:07 AM

Little pieces of paper that the government tells us are money.

And we should believe the lie.

Bern

06-05-2009, 07:07 AM

Article I Section 10 is referring to the individual States.

Article I Section 8 refers to the Federal Government.

LibertyEagle

06-05-2009, 07:09 AM

OMG it's a "fraud scheme" where hapless victims were misled into trading their valuable government mandated and plated zinc coins for worthless solid gold and silver coins. The humanity.

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking. :D

He Who Pawns

06-05-2009, 07:14 AM

Why don't they call them "Liberty Clams" so at least the gov cannot claim they are "fake dollars."

Brooklyn Red Leg

06-05-2009, 07:15 AM

Why don't they call them "Liberty Clams" so at least the gov cannot claim they are "fake dollars."

Hehe, Liberty Samollians? :D

Edit: I just noticed the comments. This person has to be clinically retarded.

CONGRESS allowed the Fed to print money under Congressional control when they wrote the Constitution (and signed it).

The Federal Reserve existed when The Constitution was written? WTF?

Misquoting the Constitution only assists the terrorists who would destroy the US entirely.

Un-fucking-believable. Misquoting The Constitution? I've heard of Federal Reserve apologists, but this takes the cake. Someone this stupid couldn't possibly be real.

Krugerrand

06-05-2009, 07:18 AM

Why don't they call them "Liberty Clams" so at least the gov cannot claim they are "fake dollars."

I agree. Not that taking the word "dollar" off would stop the crackdowns ... but it would make the case mush more difficult.

Dr.3D

06-05-2009, 07:21 AM

Well, there is the Hong Kong Dollar, Australian Dollar and the Canadian Dollar etc. The United States doesn't have a copyright on the word Dollar.

HOLLYWOOD

06-05-2009, 09:42 AM

We cannot have competition with our FIAT Inflation inducing monopoly money.

The JURY needs to be very well educated by the defense attorneys, IF, the Corrupt and Dictating Judicial system will even allow them to speak on the subject.

Ashville, NC doesn't seem to be a very well informed region on the Empire of Lies and government.

Cowlesy

06-05-2009, 10:00 AM

Bernard Von NotHaus is great --- I hope he gets out of it this somehow.

Imperial

06-05-2009, 10:18 AM

Deleted- accidentally posted twice.

jkr

06-05-2009, 10:27 AM

can some one explain to me how these things are ANY different than tokens at showbiz pizza place / chuck E cheese?

or skeetball tickets?

or manufacturer coupons?

Dr.3D

06-05-2009, 10:31 AM

can some one explain to me how these things are ANY different than tokens at showbiz pizza place / chuck E cheese?

or skeetball tickets?

or manufacturer coupons?

They aren't much different. The biggest difference is that they are made of something of value.

NorwegianLibertarian

06-05-2009, 10:31 AM

45 years in prison for following the Constitution. Help us all...

JoshLowry

06-05-2009, 10:32 AM

Am I still dreaming?

Somebody pinch me!

Imperial

06-05-2009, 10:33 AM

United States Attorney's Office
Western District of North Carolina
Contact: (704) 344-6222

That's the contact provided on the press release...:D

acptulsa

06-05-2009, 10:38 AM

can some one explain to me how these things are ANY different than tokens at showbiz pizza place / chuck E cheese?

or skeetball tickets?

or manufacturer coupons?

The word 'dollar'.

Well, there is the Hong Kong Dollar, Australian Dollar and the Canadian Dollar etc. The United States doesn't have a copyright on the word Dollar.

They don't need a copyright. They can overstuff the hell out of other parts of the legal code when copyright law doesn't screw things up enough to suit them.

JoshLowry

06-05-2009, 10:40 AM

The word 'dollar'.

What about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_dollar

Many countries use that word.

Bryan

06-05-2009, 10:42 AM

acptulsa

06-05-2009, 10:44 AM

What about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_dollar

Many countries use that word.

Other countries don't count. As for Disney Dollars, dollars-off coupons, and such, yeah, I know.

So the question is- what is the states evidence that they were being dishonest with intent to defraud others with their use? What exactly did they say?

Obviously this smells bad.

Well, they certainly weren't advocating spending them at face value! Yeah, it smells awful. Wonder if we can circulate that smell around the public a bit, and see if we can get a little outrage going. If nothing else, we could well remind the most ignorant how to avoid having their cash shrink in their pockets. That will soon be very useful information.

jkr

06-05-2009, 10:46 AM

square coins...
less wasted material therfore more inheriant value
NO resembalnace to curant currancy
ftFED

Carole

06-05-2009, 10:47 AM

LOL

"“People understand that there is only one legal currency in the United States,” said Owen Harris, special agent in charge of the Charlotte office of the FBI. “When groups try to replace the U.S. dollar with coins and bills that don't hold the same value, it affects the economy"

You can say that again Mr. Fiat-FBI guy. :D

"Von NotHaus' organization said in 2006 that more than $20 million worth of Liberty Dollar coins and notes were in circulation. Congress has exclusive power to coin money in the U.S. and to regulate its value, according to the Treasury Department."

What a joke! So will somebody please make Congress do its job???????????????????????

Dr.3D

06-05-2009, 10:52 AM

Other countries don't count. As for Disney Dollars, dollars-off coupons, and such, yeah, I know.

Well, they certainly weren't advocating spending them at face value! Yeah, it smells awful. Wonder if we can circulate that smell around the public a bit, and see if we can get a little outrage going. If nothing else, we could well remind the most ignorant how to avoid having their cash shrink in their pockets. That will soon be very useful information.

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/letterdefiningmoney28dec07.shtml

Njon

06-05-2009, 11:03 AM

Digg it: http://digg.com/politics/Federal_Government_Goes_After_the_Liberty_Dollar

rp4prez

06-05-2009, 11:27 AM

I would pay worthless FED notes to be on this jury!!! Can you imagine! hehe

Valli6

06-05-2009, 02:11 PM

We need a thousand people in front of that courthouse protesting until he is released.
Anyone around the Charlotte, NC area this coming Monday 6/8/02?
"Innes was ordered detained pending a detention hearing which is now set for Monday, June 8, 2009 at 9:35 a.m. before Magistrate Judge David Cayer in the federal courthouse in Charlotte, North Carolina."
http://charlotte.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/2009/ce060309.htm

Isaac Bickerstaff

06-05-2009, 04:43 PM

Dr.3D

06-05-2009, 05:05 PM

Many of us met Kevin last summer at the "doings" here in Minnesota. One of the nicest guys you will ever meet. (trying to defraud. . . HA!) Is there any way for us to help? Chipin for legal fees? Ronvoy to the hearing? Anything?

If you read this news letter, you will see what is being asked for.
http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/pr_nl/06_04_2009.htm

LibForestPaul

06-05-2009, 05:46 PM

Is there a reason why these libertarians like poking the sickly jackals...:mad:
could have called it LibertySchilling, Liberty Ounce, Liberty Silver...

Mesogen

06-05-2009, 05:56 PM

They really should have made those coins square or triangle or something, so that they would in no way whatsoever look like coins minted by the US government.

I think the Liberty Dollar's main problem is that it's called "dollar."

Make the coins octagons or something and call it a Liberty. "Yes sir that costs 2 Liberties."

edit: I see LibForestPaul beat me to it.

Mesogen

06-05-2009, 06:00 PM

I would pay worthless FED notes to be on this jury!!! Can you imagine! hehe

Hey if you need to get rid you some of those worthless FRN's I can give you my address and you can mail them to me. I'll pay for all the shipping and handling. ;)

jmlfod87

06-05-2009, 06:05 PM

“Consumers were using their hard-earned money to buy goods and services, then getting fake change in return.”

Are you serious? This guy works for the FBI?

GunnyFreedom

06-05-2009, 06:22 PM

Why don't they call them "Liberty Clams" so at least the gov cannot claim they are "fake dollars."

This would have been a good idea IMHO. Or better yet, just put material quality and weight like bullion.

I'm not sure what to think about this story at this point. The guy stamps "$50" onto $15 worth of silver. Apparently they are difficult to distinguish from a silver eagle, and some stores have been taking them at face value.

If the face value reflected the melt value I'd tell the FedGov to go stick it.

But If I was the owner of some shop and my clerk took a $15 trinket and gave out $50 worth of change, I'd be pissed.

GunnyFreedom

06-05-2009, 06:28 PM

You have to read carefully- the charges are (per the piece) "charged with uttering and passing coins resembling genuine U.S. coins and intended for use as money, mail fraud and selling and possessing Liberty Dollar coins with intent to defraud."

So the claim isn't so much that they had them or using then as much as it is how it was claimed they were using them, ie: trying to defraud people.

So the question is- what is the states evidence that they were being dishonest with intent to defraud others with their use? What exactly did they say?

Obviously this smells bad.

Apparently, I am hearing anecdotal evidence here in NC now, people ARE in fact passing them off as US currency. Someone pays $25 for $15 worth of silver, and then spends them wherever clerks are likely to accept them at the $50 face value.

That actually IS fraud -- at least on the part of the people who are passing them. I'm not sure how the case can be made against NotHouse for his customer's act of fraud; but seriously, marking $15 worth of silver with the face value of $50 is kind of asinine. Especially when you make it look close enough to a Liberty Eagle that cashiers are accepting them at face value. :(

Mind you that IS just anecdotal evidence but... :mad: I'd be pissed if I lost $35 every time someone bought a bag of chips with one of these things in my store.

GunnyFreedom

06-05-2009, 06:34 PM

Is there a reason why these libertarians like poking the sickly jackals...:mad:
could have called it LibertySchilling, Liberty Ounce, Liberty Silver...

They really should have made those coins square or triangle or something, so that they would in no way whatsoever look like coins minted by the US government.

I think the Liberty Dollar's main problem is that it's called "dollar."

Make the coins octagons or something and call it a Liberty. "Yes sir that costs 2 Liberties."

edit: I see LibForestPaul beat me to it.

You two are the ones with your heads on right. As well as the Peter Shiff guy.

If you are going to call them "dollars" then at least make the face value something remotely close to the melt value! By making them resemble US Currency closely enough that cashiers in places really have been taking them at face value, and face value is some 3.5 times the melt value; then something stinks.

“Consumers were using their hard-earned money to buy goods and services, then getting fake change in return.”

Are you serious? This guy works for the FBI?

I don't honestly care about their effect on FRN's. If someone sold me $15 worth of silver for $50, I'd be outraged.

Theocrat

06-05-2009, 10:44 PM

If gold and silver aren't real money, what is?

Paper with pictures of dead presidents on them and numbers at the corners.

It seems our federal government cares more about enforcing paper money than they do the paper which gives them limited power to do so.

KCIndy

06-06-2009, 12:00 AM

Is there a reason why these libertarians like poking the sickly jackals...:mad:
could have called it LibertySchilling, Liberty Ounce, Liberty Silver...

Agreed.

I'm all in favor of using precious metals as currency. I would love to see the American taxpayer tell the Federal Reserve to take a hike - permanently. And I sincerely hope that these guys beat the charges and are released immediately!

But... damn.

I've said before that the Liberty Dollar guys were asking for trouble by being deliberately provocative with their design:

http://www.libertydollarofdenver.com/resource/liberty_dollar_front.jpg

and compare that to the U.S. Mint issued "Peace Dollar" (1921-1935):

http://multimedia4everyone.com/us_debt/media/Peace_dollar_3.gif

I can see where some people could become confused... and worst of all, by using the word "dollar" it's going to make it easier for prosecutors to push forward the idea that people *could* be passing them deceptively...

The suggestions here are right - they Liberty Dollar should have been minted as a square, triangle or whatever. Leave off the word "dollar" even if they *are* entitled to use it....

I hope the jury is intelligent enough to grasp the idea that no fraud was intended and do the right thing... kick 'em loose.

sratiug

06-06-2009, 01:08 AM

Apparently, I am hearing anecdotal evidence here in NC now, people ARE in fact passing them off as US currency. Someone pays $25 for $15 worth of silver, and then spends them wherever clerks are likely to accept them at the $50 face value.

That actually IS fraud -- at least on the part of the people who are passing them. I'm not sure how the case can be made against NotHouse for his customer's act of fraud; but seriously, marking $15 worth of silver with the face value of $50 is kind of asinine. Especially when you make it look close enough to a Liberty Eagle that cashiers are accepting them at face value. :(

Mind you that IS just anecdotal evidence but... :mad: I'd be pissed if I lost $35 every time someone bought a bag of chips with one of these things in my store.

How would you feel if your cashier gave out 49 US minted silver dollars (1 dollar face value) in change for a 50 "dollar" fed note? Who would be committing fraud? Especially since only gold and silver is legal tender in your state.

MyLibertyStuff

06-06-2009, 02:25 AM

“When groups try to replace the U.S. dollar with coins and bills that don't hold the same value, it affects the economy.

“Consumers were using their hard-earned money to buy goods and services, then getting fake change in return.”

I lol'd at the irony

BeFranklin

06-06-2009, 03:49 AM