General Motors to File for Bankruptcy at 6:00 AM (Who Saw this Coming?)

[Dan Chisholm]

Here are the two most important articles I've read today, but please post more as you see them on the group's discussion board and wall. The first is the big news of the day and the second is the best alternative to Obama's plan that I've seen.

GM Bankruptcy Filing Expected 6 a.m. Monday: http://www.detnews.com/article/20090531/AUTO01/905310324/GM-bankruptcy-filing-expected-6-a.m.-Monday

If any of you forgot what Mitt suggested late 2008, here it is: http://digg.com/business_finance/ Let_Detroit_Go_Bankrupt_Mitt_Romney

If Obama, the UAW, and the management of the Big 3 had taken Mitt's advice back then, us taxpayers would have been saved billions of dollars and the Big 3 would be much further along the road to recovery which would have sped up the recovery of the entire U.S. economy.

With that in mind, I would suggest that everyone heed Mitt's advice this time around.

Romney Balks at Government Ownership of GM: http://digg.com/politics/Romney_Balks_at_Government_Ownership_of_GM_detnews _com

[Danke]

How about Mitt just proposing the government to just return all the money they have extracted from GM throughout its history (with interest). I'm sure GM would be a health company then.

[Objectivist]

I heard on the radio that we are now part owners of GM, once they file. SO I'll be picking out my free Corvette Tuesday!:cool:

[He Who Pawns]

Mitt was definitely right back in the fall.

Anyway, this whole "bankruptcy" is nothing but a sham, designed to keep the unions lining their pockets with our tax dollars. During a true bankruptcy, GM would tell the unions to go fuck themselves and bring in new, non-union workers at 1/5th the money the unions are being paid now.

[ItsTime]

Holy crap I agree with He Who Pawns

[Objectivist]

Mitt was definitely right back in the fall.

Anyway, this whole "bankruptcy" is nothing but a sham, designed to keep the unions lining their pockets with our tax dollars. During a true bankruptcy, GM would tell the unions to go fuck themselves and bring in new, non-union workers at 1/5th the money the unions are being paid now.

Exactly what I am hoping some company is willing to do.

I'll never buy GM now.

[ItsTime]

Exactly what I am hoping some company is willing to do.

I'll never buy GM now.

I am thinking about buying the new VW diesel that gets 45-53mpg

[Objectivist]

I am thinking about buying the new VW diesel that gets 45-53mpg

Let me help you a little, google "60 mpg" or "70 mpg"
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/02/vw-unveiling-an/
http://greenchemistry.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/2009-jetta-bluetdi-comes-to-us-this-summer-sports-60-mpg/

Good choice by the way, you might look at Audi and Mercedes Benz high milage cars.

[ItsTime]

Let me help you a little, google "60 mpg" or "70 mpg"
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/02/vw-unveiling-an/
http://greenchemistry.wordpress.com/2008/05/11/2009-jetta-bluetdi-comes-to-us-this-summer-sports-60-mpg/

Good choice by the way, you might look at Audi and Mercedes Benz high milage cars.

Well damn I might want to wait. Thanks for the heads up. I havent really researched anything yet.

[torchbearer]

I still dream of buying a Tesla- but i've also been in talks with people in the South about starting a new car company in the south.

[silverhawks]

I still dream of buying a Tesla- but i've also been in talks with people in the South about starting a new car company in the south.

If you get that even halfway started, please let us know. I'd rather buy from a small quality domestic manufacturer that turns out cars with character, that run efficiently, than big manufacturers that have ignored social and technological trends for a decade in order to crank out cheap jalopies that look like clones of each other.

[angelatc]

I thought all that TARP money was supposed to turn a profit for us!

[silverhawks]

I thought all that TARP money was supposed to turn a profit for us!

I think the line was a profit for "American taxpayers" - which I now interpret to mean "corporate CEOs and politicians".

[torchbearer]

I thought all that TARP money was supposed to turn a profit for us!

Let me define "us"
UAW, Lobbyist, Congressmen, and certain executives. That would be "us" who profited from TARP.

[peter_lifton]

Instead of "The Homer" GM will design a car called "The Obama".

Similar to "The Homer" but more eco-friendly.

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/06/TheHomer.jpg

[torchbearer]

If you get that even halfway started, please let us know. I'd rather buy from a small quality domestic manufacturer that turns out cars with character, that run efficiently, than big manufacturers that have ignored social and technological trends for a decade in order to crank out cheap jalopies that look like clones of each other.

I'm full speed ahead with the idea- its my racin' buds who are hesitant.
I figure we can use Alabama steel for the mainframe.

[Objectivist]

I think the line was a profit for "American taxpayers" - which I now interpret to mean "corporate CEOs and politicians".

DOn't forget the Unions who own a %

[LATruth]

C'mon guys, wouldn't it be neat to own one of these turds?

http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/GM/Concept_cars/Chevy_concept_trio_main01.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01381/chevy_Spark0_1381768c.jpg

:D

[angelatc]

Instead of the Yugo, our country can produce the O-go!

[LATruth]

Yes, the Obamobile!!!

[puppetmaster]

I still dream of buying a Tesla- but i've also been in talks with people in the South about starting a new car company in the south.


whatever happened to the talk about hydro fuel cells.....just disappeared , again

[torchbearer]

whatever happened to the talk about hydro fuel cells.....just disappeared , again

as practical as transporting ethanol via the current pipelines.
Electric cars are better because it isn't tied to one commodity. There are many ways to generate electricity-
There is only one or two ways to make gasoline.
Making, Storing, Transporting, and handling hydro fuel is not an easy or efficient task.
We already have an infrastructure to transport electricity.

[FSP-Rebel]

As far as Gov motors declaring bankruptcy is concerned, bout time.

[LATruth]

As far as Gov motors declaring bankruptcy is concerned, bout time.

But shouldn't they gave declared bankruptcy prior to taking government bailouts? Now we have a company that was infused with money with absolved debt that we will eat in the long run. IF you take a bailout you should be barred from bankruptcy.

[IPSecure]

GM's overall future may look grim, but half a world away from Detroit in Shanghai, business has never been better. The US auto giant is beating sales records in China and may soon be exporting Chinese-made cars to the United States.

"I don't think it makes much difference to us. Obviously we'd prefer to have this restructuring done outside the courts," Kevin Wale, GM China's president and managing director, told AFP in a recent interview.

"We operate as independent joint ventures here in China so we would continue pretty much as we are today."

While GM pares back at home, it may add a plant in China to meet its goal of doubling annual sales to two million within five years with products developed for "the most important growth market in the world", Wale said.

That extra capacity could also help produce GM cars which for the first time would be exported from China to the United States, under a proposal the automaker has reportedly submitted to US lawmakers.

GM has proposed shipping 17,335 Chinese-made cars to the US in 2011 and increasing that to 51,546 by 2014 -- representing 1.6 percent of its forecast 3.1 million cars five years from now, the Automotive News reported.

China led the world in auto sales in April, and GM China's joint ventures led the pack, with sales rising 29.9 percent on year to 151,084 vehicles, driven by demand for Buicks and small Wuling "bread vans" that cost less than 5,000 dollars.

"It's definitely one of the market leaders here -- in drastic contrast to their performance in the US," said Shen Jun, an auto analyst at Roland Berger.

GM's first Shanghai sales office opened in 1929, boasting: "Buick owners are mostly the leading men in China."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.43752aaaffc9ffb3c6864fbdab707c3 7.3c1&show_article=1 (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.43752aaaffc9ffb3c6864fbdab707c3 7.3c1&show_article=1)

[Objectivist]

whatever happened to the talk about hydro fuel cells.....just disappeared , again

Hydrogen needs massive amounts of electricity to produce and to do it properly you'd need more nuclear plants that do not produce carbon emissions. France can do it because they run 80% clean nuclear and in off peak hours they have the clean energy to produce Hydrogen for busses and trucks.

Electric cars produce more emissions than a small diesel powered car, just that they do it at a power plant a hundred miles away.

[akihabro]

I still dream of buying a Tesla- but i've also been in talks with people in the South about starting a new car company in the south.

Ever see the top gear video on that car?

I saw this bankruptcy coming a mile away. I never agreed with the chicken littles saying the sky will fall if we don't bail-out GM. We bailed them out and they still failed. I wonder which dealerships will be shut down. I saw on CNN that Obama will give 30 B!illion to them while they go thru court. So its been estimated that we own 60%. 60% off? Wow, I think I'll go buy a GM and destroy the Onstar system and the airbag"black box"

[KCIndy]

Hydrogen needs massive amounts of electricity to produce and to do it properly you'd need more nuclear plants that do not produce carbon emissions. France can do it because they run 80% clean nuclear and in off peak hours they have the clean energy to produce Hydrogen for busses and trucks.

Electric cars produce more emissions than a small diesel powered car, just that they do it at a power plant a hundred miles away.


You're dead-on correct. I've tried explaining this to people time and again. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that hydrogen is a freely available, ultra cheap resource.

Three years ago, I began looking for the a car that offered the best combination of performance and fuel economy. I was appalled at what I found in the U.S. market. GM was bragging - bragging - about how some of their cars got "28 MPG on the highway!" as if that was something to be proud of. Ford was no better.

As much as I hated to buy foreign over domestic, I ended up getting a VW Jetta TDI (diesel). I've loved it! I can drive it like a maniac and still average around 42mpg. My wife, who drives much more sensibly than I do, can usually average 46-48mpg. And that's with no modifications, simply driving it off the lot.

I can't understand why diesel isn't a more popular alternative here in the U.S. especially now that the "clean diesel" technology is available.... hell, it's even considered "clean" by California standards.

If the geniuses in government would allow American farmers to grow hemp for use in biodiesel production, we'd probably cut our oil imports by half or better.

*sigh*

Okay, enough ranting. It's too early in the morning to get so worked up!! :)

[Objectivist]

You're dead-on correct. I've tried explaining this to people time and again. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that hydrogen is a freely available, ultra cheap resource.

Three years ago, I began looking for the a car that offered the best combination of performance and fuel economy. I was appalled at what I found in the U.S. market. GM was bragging - bragging - about how some of their cars got "28 MPG on the highway!" as if that was something to be proud of. Ford was no better.

As much as I hated to buy foreign over domestic, I ended up getting a VW Jetta TDI (diesel). I've loved it! I can drive it like a maniac and still average around 42mpg. My wife, who drives much more sensibly than I do, can usually average 46-48mpg. And that's with no modifications, simply driving it off the lot.

I can't understand why diesel isn't a more popular alternative here in the U.S. especially now that the "clean diesel" technology is available.... hell, it's even considered "clean" by California standards.

If the geniuses in government would allow American farmers to grow hemp for use in biodiesel production, we'd probably cut our oil imports by half or better.

*sigh*

Okay, enough ranting. It's too early in the morning to get so worked up!! :)

Actually diesel is demonized in California for the particulate matter that they emit. The new truck engines are being designed with a filtration system that REDUCES fuel milage and cost much more per truck if you have to update your pre 2010 vehicle. California Air Resources Board is full of idiots and they just found out that one of the board members lied about his Ph.D, that he got via an internet website. Then same liar wrote the report requiring these new engines and filtration systems.

SO now we have to update all our diesel trucks and semis to meet standards, while we will burn more fuel 20-30% more to drive the same milage. Can I shoot someone yet?

The small truck companies are getting hammered by Mexican trucks making deliveries into the USA and now they have an additional $25,000 per truck to update their equipment and get less fuel milage emitting more carbon into the atmosphere. Give me a pitchfork and a torch, I'm headed to Sacramento.

[Objectivist]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_12_178/ai_53476149/

I've heard reports from truckers and trucking companies that are already using the new technology and they are planning on moving out of state, taking their business with them.

Here's one for ya, they are even making hospitals with backup generators update or replace their generators, that maybe get started once a month for ten minutes as a regular system check.

Big diesel engine companies paid big bucks to push this legislation as the newer engines have been lasting much longer than the pre computer designed engines.

[KCIndy]

Actually diesel is demonized in California for the particulate matter that they emit. The new truck engines are being designed with a filtration system that REDUCES fuel milage and cost much more per truck if you have to update your pre 2010 vehicle. California Air Resources Board is full of idiots and they just found out that one of the board members lied about his Ph.D, that he got via an internet website. Then same liar wrote the report requiring these new engines and filtration systems.

SO now we have to update all our diesel trucks and semis to meet standards, while we will burn more fuel 20-30% more to drive the same milage. Can I shoot someone yet?

The small truck companies are getting hammered by Mexican trucks making deliveries into the USA and now they have an additional $25,000 per truck to update their equipment and get less fuel milage emitting more carbon into the atmosphere. Give me a pitchfork and a torch, I'm headed to Sacramento.


Ugh... ironically enough, I drive a truck for a living, so I can rant for hours about the California CARB idiocy.

The "clean diesel" I was talking about (and I should have been more specific) was for the new '09 Volkswagen TDIs, which unlike the earlier TDIs are California legal.

As far as the trucking industry goes, the crazy emissions regs have very nearly killed the industry, and *not* just in California. The EPA adjusted the standards in '03, '07 and are going at in again for the 2010 engines. And yes, you're absolutely correct - every time the emissions were lowered, SO WAS THE FUEL ECONOMY!!! So now I can drive a truck that puts out 30% less particulates per gallon burned... but burns 30% more fuel while I drive!! Way to go, EPA.

Caterpiller recently said "screw it" and got out of the heavy vehicle diesel engine business, at the cost of several thousand domestic jobs.

And of course, California has their own standards, just to make things even more confusing.

I hadn't heard about the board member who lied about his Ph.D. That explains a lot!

[moostraks]

GM's overall future may look grim, but half a world away from Detroit in Shanghai, business has never been better. The US auto giant is beating sales records in China and may soon be exporting Chinese-made cars to the United States.

"I don't think it makes much difference to us. Obviously we'd prefer to have this restructuring done outside the courts," Kevin Wale, GM China's president and managing director, told AFP in a recent interview.

"We operate as independent joint ventures here in China so we would continue pretty much as we are today."

While GM pares back at home, it may add a plant in China to meet its goal of doubling annual sales to two million within five years with products developed for "the most important growth market in the world", Wale said.

That extra capacity could also help produce GM cars which for the first time would be exported from China to the United States, under a proposal the automaker has reportedly submitted to US lawmakers.

GM has proposed shipping 17,335 Chinese-made cars to the US in 2011 and increasing that to 51,546 by 2014 -- representing 1.6 percent of its forecast 3.1 million cars five years from now, the Automotive News reported.

China led the world in auto sales in April, and GM China's joint ventures led the pack, with sales rising 29.9 percent on year to 151,084 vehicles, driven by demand for Buicks and small Wuling "bread vans" that cost less than 5,000 dollars.

"It's definitely one of the market leaders here -- in drastic contrast to their performance in the US," said Shen Jun, an auto analyst at Roland Berger.

GM's first Shanghai sales office opened in 1929, boasting: "Buick owners are mostly the leading men in China."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.43752aaaffc9ffb3c6864fbdab707c3 7.3c1&show_article=1 (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.43752aaaffc9ffb3c6864fbdab707c3 7.3c1&show_article=1)

No one wants to honestly discuss that this was a planned implosion to profit a select group of folks at the expense of the taxpayers. This played like a song once they canned the CEO. The unions as far as I can tell lost huge despite all the ruminating you see to the contrary. To me all the joy over this implosion is like dancing on your own grave since the pain of economic loss doesn't stop here for the taxpayers; it has merely just begun.:(

[acptulsa]

Two thirds of the Big Three are bankrupt and the stock markets are up.

Huh? I don't get it.

[Dan Chisholm]

Obama is sacrificing the taxpayers money just because of how badly he knows he will need the UAW in 2012. He is hurting the whole state of Michigan just to protect the UAW and we need to do what we can to expose Obama's true intentions.

[torchbearer]

Obama is sacrificing the taxpayers money just because of how badly he knows he will need the UAW in 2012. He is hurting the whole state of Michigan just to protect the UAW and we need to do what we can to expose Obama's true intentions.

UAW won't win it for him if everyone else is poor.

[Objectivist]

Ugh... ironically enough, I drive a truck for a living, so I can rant for hours about the California CARB idiocy.

The "clean diesel" I was talking about (and I should have been more specific) was for the new '09 Volkswagen TDIs, which unlike the earlier TDIs are California legal.

As far as the trucking industry goes, the crazy emissions regs have very nearly killed the industry, and *not* just in California. The EPA adjusted the standards in '03, '07 and are going at in again for the 2010 engines. And yes, you're absolutely correct - every time the emissions were lowered, SO WAS THE FUEL ECONOMY!!! So now I can drive a truck that puts out 30% less particulates per gallon burned... but burns 30% more fuel while I drive!! Way to go, EPA.

Caterpiller recently said "screw it" and got out of the heavy vehicle diesel engine business, at the cost of several thousand domestic jobs.

And of course, California has their own standards, just to make things even more confusing.

I hadn't heard about the board member who lied about his Ph.D. That explains a lot!

Here's the CARB story.....
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/apr/25/lz1ed25top192452-air-board-knew/?uniontrib