income taxes

[qh4dotcom]

YouTube - Adam Kokesh - How to Fight Fascism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exeXzfsZB7E)

says that at about 3:35...keep in mind that it is an October video and he said that again in February on a Facebook group.

[Cowlesy]

heroic, but....

http://year2.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/facepalm.jpg

[ItsTime]

I didnt want the film. But did he make any money in the past two years?

[He Who Pawns]

Uh yeah, and people here bashed me when I was asking Kokesh about having a job and whether there was anything in his background that might hurt his campaign. You cannot be a tax denier and get elected to the US Congress. It aint gonna happen. He'll be lucky if he stays out of jail, let alone winning a US congressional race.

I happen to agree with his point, but regular voters and the political establishment will not let this pass.

I wonder why Adam failed to mention this when I asked him those background questions?

[cheapseats]

You cannot be a tax denier and get elected to the US Congress. It aint gonna happen.

UNLESS, maaaaybe, if he would renounce the Congressional salary and perks.



I happen to agree with his point, but regular voters and the political establishment will not let this pass.

A lot of "regular" voters and, jeepers, several of Obama's appointees don't pay taxes. It's the Taxpayers who are footing the bill for ALL of this bullshit who won't stand for it.



I wonder why Adam failed to mention this when I asked him those background questions?

He'll want to put an abrupt halt to supporters answering questions FOR him, I know that.

[torchbearer]

That would earn a vote from me.

[torchbearer]

You cannot be a tax denier and get elected to the US Congress. ?

How many of the people Obama want to appoint were neglecting their taxes? and not on principle?
Wasn't one of them a former congressman?

[cheapseats]

How many of the people Obama want to appoint were neglecting their taxes? and not on principle?
Wasn't one of them a former congressman?

Geithner not only didn't pay his taxes, he filed for and received extra money FOR paying his taxes from whichever Big Shot agency he was with at the time. Flat-out stealing, that was . . . PERFECT resume material for United States Secretary of the Treasury.

Geithner is uber International Elite, incidentally. His father met Obama's mother in Africa -- howz THAT for globalization of a small, small world?

[ClayTrainor]

Geithner not only didn't pay his taxes, he filed for and received extra money FOR paying his taxes from whichever Big Shot agency he was with at the time. Flat-out stealing, that was . . . PERFECT resume material for United States Secretary of the Treasury.

Geithner is uber International Elite, incidentally. His father met Obama's mother in Africa -- howz THAT for globalization of a small, small world?

Great points!

Kokesh needs to be aware of these talking points, for when this topic gets brought up. :)

[He Who Pawns]

You guys are fooling yourselves. Wake up to reality. It's over for Kokesh. And it should never have started. No one did the basic background checks needed -- just as I told all of you.

[ClayTrainor]

You guys are fooling yourselves. Wake up to reality. It's over for Kokesh. And it should never have started. No one did the basic background checks needed -- just as I told all of you.

you've been parroting this message from day 1...

Good job not refuting the above points :rolleyes:

[He Who Pawns]

you've been parroting this message from day 1...

Good job not refuting the above points :rolleyes:

Looks like I was right from day one.

There is a massive difference between saying, "oops, I forgot to pay, now they are paid," and what Kokesh is saying, "I refuse to pay federal income taxes and have purposefully refused to file for the last 2 years."

If you cannot recognize the difference, you are in denial.

[ClayTrainor]

If you cannot recognize the difference, you are in denial.

One is based on principle the others are either based on ignorance or lies...

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If we think Kokesh is going to get the same consideration for not paying his taxes as all of Obama's appointees we're deluding ourselves. This isn't a good thing for him trying to run for Congress.

[ClayTrainor]

If we think Kokesh is going to get the same consideration for not paying his taxes as all of Obama's appointees we're deluding ourselves.

true enough :(

We can certainly draw attention to it though. Kokesh sure knows how to deliver a point.

[He Who Pawns]

Kokesh should concentrate on activism, not running for office, especially in a district with 70% minorities or whatever.

This forum should be closed. In fact, it should never have been opened.

I would also like to get personal apologies from those who accused me of causing trouble by asking Kokesh basic background questions that should have revealed this problem, had he answered them in full.

[Kevin_Kennedy]

true enough :(

We can certainly draw attention to it though. Kokesh sure knows how to deliver a point.

I'm not sure we'd want to draw attention to it, it's a political negative. Especially if he's on record saying he did it on purpose. I'm not sure how Kokesh expects to win with this on his record.

[qh4dotcom]

I say let him run even if he has no chance of winning because of the tax issue....Ron Paul hasn't accomplished anything significant in Congress because he only has one vote and not enough clout...same will probably happen with Adam...it's all about spreading the liberty message.

[Dreamofunity]

I agree with the man on principle, the mainstream voter however will not.

[He Who Pawns]

This forum should be closed before any further damage can be done, and before Mr Kokesh ends up in a Federal prison.

Mr Kokesh did not answer honestly when he was asked to reveal if there was anything in his background that might cause problems for a US congressional race. He failed to mention that he is a tax denier recorded on video committing a federal crime.

[torchbearer]

I think Adam is on the same level as Irwin Schiff- both patriots whom we should respect.

[Uriel999]

This forum should be closed before any further damage can be done, and before Mr Kokesh ends up in a Federal prison.

Mr Kokesh did not answer honestly when he was asked to reveal if there was anything in his background that might cause problems for a US congressional race. He failed to mention that he is a tax denier recorded on video committing a federal crime.

Sure he has actually even had a job though? Kinda hard to be a full time activist and be a full time employee.

[He Who Pawns]

Sure he has actually even had a job though? Kinda hard to be a full time activist and be a full time employee.

You have to file regardless of whether you make 1 cent or 1 million dollars. That video could be used as evidence in a federal case to put Mr Kokesh in jail for a long time. I suggest removing the links here and deleting the video at its source, as soon as possible.

[No1ButPaul08]

You have to file regardless of whether you make 1 cent or 1 million dollars.

Wrong. If you make less than the standard deduction and don't own a business you don't have to file. Which makes sense because anyone making this much should get a refund and why would the government want to do that if they don't have to

[torchbearer]

Wrong. If you make less than the standard deduction and don't own a business you don't have to file.

you with all your legal stuff.

[He Who Pawns]

Wrong. If you make less than the standard deduction and don't own a business you don't have to file. Which makes sense because anyone making this much should get a refund and why would the government want to do that if they don't have to

BS. Provide evidence for this claim.

[No1ButPaul08]

BS. Provide evidence for this claim.

sure

http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96623,00.html

you have to answer no to the questions (stipulations) to get to the part where it asked if your gross income is 8950 (single)...answer no. You will be told you dont need to file.

Edit. Guess it's not standard deduction, but some arbitrary number.
Edit 2...not arbitrary...standard deduction + personal exemption.

[ClayTrainor]

BS. Provide evidence for this claim.


right back at ya


You have to file regardless of whether you make 1 cent or 1 million dollars.

[No1ButPaul08]

Here's a good summary.

Filing Requirement Thresholds
You are required to file a tax return if your income exceeds the combined total of your standard deduction and personal exemption. Here's the 2008 filing requirement thresholds:
Single: $8,950 ($10,300 if age 65 and over)
Head of Household: $11,500 ($12,850 if age 65 and over)
Married Filing Joint: $17,900 ($18,950 if one spouse age 65 and over; $20,000 if both spouses age 65 and over)
Married Filing Separately: $3,500 (any age)
Qualifying Widow/Widower: $14,400 ($15,450 if age 65 and older)

http://taxes.about.com/od/2008taxes/qt/quicktaxfacts08.htm

[He Who Pawns]

You are required to file if you make more than $400 a year from self-employment. Here is how Adam described his income when I posed this question to him:


Do you have the funds to support yourself through a long campaign, and dedicate yourself fulltime to the effort?

I have a meager savings in gold and silver and have managed to support myself with the occasional speaking honorariums and paid graphics jobs. See answer to first question.


I think that would count as self-employment or freelance work.

[He Who Pawns]

Here is how Adam responded when I asked him if there might be anything negative in his background:


Do you have anything negative in your past that would be potentially embarrassing or campaign-ending if revealed? This is the very first question any campaign manager would ask.

Thank you He Who Pawns. This is a very important question, but it's probably the second that a campaign manager would ask. The first is usually, “how much money can you get?” I have had extensive conversations about this with people that would fall more into the consultant category, and I am not without my liabilities. The big one is having brought a pistol back from Iraq. It was a souvenir that I purchased from an Iraqi Police Officer, and I was in violation of General Order 1A. It's the same one that bans US Military Personnel in the Middle East from having pornography. I was demoted to Corporal from Sergeant as a result, right before getting out. You could say I was combining two of my favorite things, civil disobedience, and firearms. More importantly, as Chesty Puller said, “You're not a real Marine until you get busted down once or twice.” That's the only significant one that is public already, and I'm not too worried about it. I have a few small things like anyone else that could be embarrassing, (I've never been a fan of parking regulations) but nothing that would be campaign-ending.

Case closed.

[No1ButPaul08]

I think that would count as self-employment or freelance work.

Absolutely. The reason you have to file for self employment is so they can hit you for the payroll tax.

[He Who Pawns]

Absolutely. The reason you have to file for self employment is so they can hit you for the payroll tax.

Okay, then he's in clear violation of the law and could be prosecuted and thrown in jail.

[torchbearer]

Okay, then he's in clear violation of the law and could be prosecuted and thrown in jail.

You under obligation to report that or you are a criminal too.
What are you going to do?

[He Who Pawns]

huh?

[No1ButPaul08]

Slight edit from my earlier post. It's possible he paid taxes on the graphics and speaking gigs. That's only if he was actually employed and had taxes withheld. Highly doubtful on the speaking gigs, and I bet he received more than $400. Graphics is also probably a business with high self-employment, especially if you're doing it on the side.

[He Who Pawns]

This thread should be closed and done away with. The person who posted on youtube should kindly take this information down, if that person is sympathetic to Adam.

[ClayTrainor]

This thread should be closed and done away with. The person who posted on youtube should kindly take this information down, if that person is sympathetic to Adam.

Agreed... :)

I'll contact the youtube poster.

[Adam Kokesh]

He Who Pawns,

It seems clear that you have more interest in causing trouble for our movement than doing anything productive and your behavior here would make you suspect for being an infiltrator, if not a government agent. I didn't mention my tax resistance in response to your question because you asked if there was anything NEGATIVE "if revealed." I have been a public tax resistor for years and there is nothing to reveal except the criminality of the income tax itself. I think having the moral courage to say that I cannot in good conscience give money to a government engaged in so much immoral behavior is a POSITIVE! In these times, it is not enough to rail against the immorality of government and then just fork over a large chunk of your paycheck to support it. In fact, I think that moral contradiction is more of a negative than having the courage of your convictions. Look up the statistics for tax resistance. I'm in good company, especially here in NM where a large part of the population lives totally "off the grid." I'm not exactly sure about the forum guidelines, but I think based on the detrimental comments you have made elsewhere, banning you would probably be appropriate.

Love, faith, respect,

Adam Kokesh

[Adam Kokesh]

Agreed... :)

I'll contact the youtube poster.

Please don't. I am a proud tax resistor, and will continue to be. I don't plan to run on the issue, but won't run from it. I would be more ashamed to be paying my taxes than not. If the IRS comes after me, the effect will be similar to what happened when the Marine Corps tried to make an example out of me, and instead, I was called the "Pentagon's worst public relations nightmare."

[ClayTrainor]

Please don't. I am a proud tax resistor, and will continue to be. I don't plan to run on the issue, but won't run from it. I would be more ashamed to be paying my taxes than not. If the IRS comes after me, the effect will be similar to what happened when the Marine Corps tried to make an example out of me, and instead, I was called the "Pentagon's worst public relations nightmare."

I hear you... i won't.

I was just thinking, if you might get thrown in jail for this, i'd take the means to stop that from happening... i hear you tho.

[MRoCkEd]

I guess the issue is that however righteous and courageous resisting taxes is, it will be a huge detriment to being elected to public office.

[He Who Pawns]

Adam, when I asked you point blank if there was anything in your background that could be a detriment to your campaign, why did you fail to reveal this illegal activity? Omission is also dishonesty. You lied to all of us here.

You are very foolish to continue running and to ask that the video not be taken down. Apparently you are either in shock that the truth came out, or are unable to think clearly for yourself. Instead of a federal job in congress, you will be living in a federal jail, and all your campaign donors will be out of luck on their hard-earned donation money, and volunteer time.

[Dreamofunity]

I agree with Adam on principle and think he is courageous and wish I had the balls to do it myself, but I agree it will be detrimental to a political run.

[eOs]

I agree with Adam on principle and think he is courageous and wish I had the balls to do it myself, but I agree it will be detrimental to a political run.

consensus

[He Who Pawns]

We all agree with Adam on principle.

But I would agree with him for being a drug dealer as well, because I think drugs should be legal. What if we found out that Adam was the biggest drug dealer in New Mexico? Sure, in theory we would support him, but not for congress.

[malkusm]

Actually, I'm the biggest drug dealer in New Mexico.

(Just trying to break up the tension in here a bit)

[slacker921]

I agree with Adam on principle and think he is courageous and wish I had the balls to do it myself, but I agree it will be detrimental to a political run.

same here.. sorry Adam.. While almost everyone here agrees with you on this point and will support you, the average voter will not. I think they'll make an example out of you and I'm really saddened by that.

[torchbearer]

Actually, I'm the biggest drug dealer in New Mexico.

(Just trying to break up the tension in here a bit)

I'll pm you later, I need to put in a large order. :D

[ClayTrainor]

I want to see Adam in the debate with this Lujan guy... that alone would be worth a $100 donation to me.

If he gets called on his tax-resistor status, then at least that will bring attention to the BS income tax, to a national stage....

[Kevin_Kennedy]

He Who Pawns,

It seems clear that you have more interest in causing trouble for our movement than doing anything productive and your behavior here would make you suspect for being an infiltrator, if not a government agent. I didn't mention my tax resistance in response to your question because you asked if there was anything NEGATIVE "if revealed." I have been a public tax resistor for years and there is nothing to reveal except the criminality of the income tax itself. I think having the moral courage to say that I cannot in good conscience give money to a government engaged in so much immoral behavior is a POSITIVE! In these times, it is not enough to rail against the immorality of government and then just fork over a large chunk of your paycheck to support it. In fact, I think that moral contradiction is more of a negative than having the courage of your convictions. Look up the statistics for tax resistance. I'm in good company, especially here in NM where a large part of the population lives totally "off the grid." I'm not exactly sure about the forum guidelines, but I think based on the detrimental comments you have made elsewhere, banning you would probably be appropriate.

Love, faith, respect,

Adam Kokesh

Well, we all agree with and support you in your effort to resist the income tax. If it comes up, however, I think it may kill you politically.

[nayjevin]

here's to calling bullshit on the legitimacy of income tax on a national stage. woohoo! free national media if anyone brings it up!

[nayjevin]

ya'all act like the votes are everything. Ron Paul lost -- do you wish he hadn't run?

[almantimes2]

ya'all act like the votes are everything. Ron Paul lost -- do you wish he hadn't run?
Correct.


We will never win if we sacrifice what we collectively believe in for votes.
We vote. And support for what is right and what is good. It is Irevelent what other people think.

Were just as bad as the sheep stuck in the right left paradigm if we submit to this silly political game.

It's not about votes. That's not what this movement was founded upon. Its about Freedom and liberty.
Sometimes we forget this.

[qh4dotcom]

Wow...I just broke a record...a thread I started with 70+ posts

[Dreamofunity]

ya'all act like the votes are everything. Ron Paul lost -- do you wish he hadn't run?

The thing is this will be a much smaller race in what is seen to be unwinnable. Not many people watch random congress debates besides us. While everything I've seen from Adam has been amazing and productive for this movement, and he seems like a man that stands firmly on principle - obvious by this video and his recent posts, I don't know if running for office is the best thing to do. While exposure may be worth it for him, although I hope nothing comes criminally of his admittance, it may not be the best thing for the grassroots to donate to if he is deemed unelectable (I realize Paul was seen as that too, which was part of the problem to begin with, but it was partly true as well). With funds short, and people like Rand who need monetary support, I don't know if it's best to throw money at this.

If people feel Adam can still win given this news, or wish to support him regardless, I say go for it 100%. I'll support Adam whatever he decides to do and wish him the best, he is definitly an asset to this movement, I just don't know if the current path is the correct one for him but I'll let him make that decision.

If he's willing to bring up such a necessary topic to the mainstream and do so at great risk then the best of luck to him. I'm not from NM so I can't, but I'd vote for the man in a heartbeat over any of the typical political hacks, the only problem I see is most people wouldnt.

Good luck with whatever you decide Adam.

[Danke]

A lot of ignorant posts on this thread about the Income Tax. Anyone care to debate?

Most here have no idea what they are talking about.

Adam, whether his understanding is correct or whether he is just doing it on principle, is a better man than most I have run across in my life. That includes over 15+ years in the military and over 10 years as an officer.

Oh, but your average Joe the six pack doesn't understand, and is ignorant about the income tax, so Adam should give up his position(s) to garnish more votes...whatever.

Ron Paul ran on principles...did we forget that?

[Danke]

Instead of a federal job in congress, you will be living in a federal jail, and all your campaign donors will be out of luck on their hard-earned donation money, and volunteer time.

What law did he break?

[Danke]

Okay, then he's in clear violation of the law and could be prosecuted and thrown in jail.

If you don't know WTF you are talking about, best to keep your mouth shut.

[nobody's_hero]

Hmm. Decisions, decisions.

(A) I could support a principled-tax-evading, pistol-smuggling, liberty-tree-watering patriot who probably isn't likely to win, but has been right on the mark as far as spreading the message of liberty is concerned.

(B) I could sit back and let the New Mexico seat get snatched up by a neocon, without any challenger at all.

Leaning towards (A) at the moment.

I don't discount the fact, though, that this will be an uphill battle.

[Danke]

Hmm. Decisions, decisions.

(A) I could support a principled-tax-evading...



What makes you sure he is "tax evading"?

[nobody's_hero]

What makes you sure he is "tax evading"?

Sorry, I was putting it in the establishment's terminology. ;)

They're going to throw a lot at him, but, it's only because he's the biggest pain in Washington's arse. If Kokesh is a threat to a Constitution-neglecting government, then he must be doing something right.

[Bryan]

I am always appreciative of members who will ask the tough questions such as what He Who Pawns did earlier-- I think his follow-up question of "I wonder why Adam failed to mention this when I asked him those background questions?" was fair too.

That said, I likewise appreciate Adam taking the effort to post here to clarify the situation, I completely understand his position that nothing new is being revealed here since the information has already long been public.

Perhaps this can be chalked up to miscommunication- it happens, but now there is a solid understanding of the situation. Calling Adam a liar, as done here, is basically jumping to a conclusion that can easily be shown to be false, as done. Such flimsy accusations are problematic at best for our community and are a violation of the forum guidelines. Certainly Adam's choice to deal with the tax issue is well thought through and everyone here can follow the course of action of their choosing.

Please note, this sub-forum is in place to support an Adam Kokesh congressional run in 2010- any effort to derail that is at the least considered off-topic. The complete guidelines can be reviewed here:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22

That's not to say there isn't room for discussion from *supporters* of the campaign.

Regardless, let's please keep this thread, and sub-forum, productive.


To add my own $0.02 to the issue at hand. If you're trying to run a "Mr. Rogers" style campaign / candidate then such a position on taxation will likely be an issue. However, with a campaign of dissent this could be a proud feature of the campaign.

Whatever the case- it is true that all our efforts need to be valued as vehicles to both gain influence and to win the hearts and minds of others.

[ClayTrainor]

To add my own $0.02 to the issue at hand. If you're trying to run a "Mr. Rogers" style campaign / candidate then such a position on taxation will likely be an issue. However, with a campaign of dissent this could be a proud feature of the campaign.


Very well said Bryan, thanks for your thoughts! :cool:

[satchelmcqueen]

since the tax system is a scam anyway, i applaud adam for being upfront and honest about not paying. this gets my support right away. sure hes wrong according to the law, BUT a law doesnt make it right. principle and honesty matters to me rather than laws.

im hoping he can use this as a way to gain support rather than loose it.

[kathy88]

I agree with Adam on principle and think he is courageous and wish I had the balls to do it myself, but I agree it will be detrimental to a political run.


I think it will inspire more people to not file. I see that as a positive. Rock on with yer bad self Adam.

[Bryan]

Just an FYI on some interesting info for everyone:

War Tax Boycott
http://www.wartaxboycott.org

National War Tax Resistance Coordinating Committee
http://nwtrcc.org

War Resisters League's
http://www.warresisters.org
(note the shirt of the gal in the ACTIVIST PROFILE) :)

[He Who Pawns]

Well, I guess as long as he's not actually planning to win, and doesn't mind going to federal prison, sure, by all means, let's keep supporting him.

It's not like we have legitimate candidates such as Rand Paul who need our help. :rolleyes:

And Bryan, you know darn well that I was called a troll and bashed by these blind Kokesh supporters when I grilled him on his background. I had a hunch that something was fishy. As far as his honesty, why did he fail to mention this blatant breaking of federal tax law when I asked about potentially damaging activity in his background? By any definition, that's dishonesty.

Shouldn't he have made us aware of this issue, before soliciting donations and funds?

[yongrel]

Well, I guess as long as he's not actually planning to win, and doesn't mind going to federal prison, sure, by all means, let's keep supporting him.

It's not like we have legitimate candidates such as Rand Paul who need our help. :rolleyes:

And Bryan, you know darn well that I was called a troll and bashed by these blind Kokesh supporters when I grilled him on his background. I had a hunch that something was fishy. As far as his honesty, why did he fail to mention this blatant breaking of federal tax law when I asked about potentially damaging activity in his background? By any definition, that's dishonesty.

Shouldn't he have made us aware of this issue, before soliciting donations and funds?

+1 (Though this will likely be deleted along with the rest of the criticism.)

[torchbearer]

Who needs enemies with friends like you.
Obviously- this was your agenda. And has been from the beginning. Smear the guy you see as taking away possible funds from your favorite candidate.
I really have no respect for you.


Well, I guess as long as he's not actually planning to win, and doesn't mind going to federal prison, sure, by all means, let's keep supporting him.

It's not like we have legitimate candidates such as Rand Paul who need our help. :rolleyes:

And Bryan, you know darn well that I was called a troll and bashed by these blind Kokesh supporters when I grilled him on his background. I had a hunch that something was fishy. As far as his honesty, why did he fail to mention this blatant breaking of federal tax law when I asked about potentially damaging activity in his background? By any definition, that's dishonesty.

Shouldn't he have made us aware of this issue, before soliciting donations and funds?

[He Who Pawns]

Who needs enemies with friends like you.
Obviously- this was your agenda. And has been from the beginning. Smear the guy you see as taking away possible funds from your favorite candidate.
I really have no respect for you.

It's a shame to see this type of reaction. Really a shame.

[torchbearer]

It's a shame to see this type of reaction. Really a shame.

I don't see you diss Peter because of his father- nor would parade around like this if you found a youtube of Peter stating the same thing. And you know this is true.
As far as I'm concerned, you are an enemy.

What have you done for the liberty movement again besides repeatedly bashing on Adam?

[torchbearer]

Peter is his guy.
Go back and read jerk-offs post history. you will see a pattern.


I'm just guessing here, but HWP has a picture of Peter Schiff for an avatar... And we all know what is happening... So, I'm just saying I don't think Rand is his favorite candidate.;)

With that being said, I fail to see motive. I see realistic questions being ask. I mean we'd be fools to think this wont be thrown up in Adam's face by his opponents. His potential voters will have to weigh this, just as donors.

Adam should just push this issue hard... running against the tax! Which, odds are he will, but will that help him win an election in his "neck of the woods"? :confused: I can't answer that.

[pacelli]

What have you done for the liberty movement again besides repeatedly bashing on Adam?

Maybe he did something productive during his second ban. ;)

[qh4dotcom]

Bump

[brandon]

Uh yeah, and people here bashed me when I was asking Kokesh about having a job and whether there was anything in his background that might hurt his campaign. You cannot be a tax denier and get elected to the US Congress. It aint gonna happen. He'll be lucky if he stays out of jail, let alone winning a US congressional race.

I happen to agree with his point, but regular voters and the political establishment will not let this pass.

I wonder why Adam failed to mention this when I asked him those background questions?


Agreed. I hope not that many people donate money to his dead end campaign. He's just going to suck money away from Rand and Schiff's more viable campaigns.

[He Who Pawns]

Pray that I never meet you at any of our events.


Reported.

And trust me, pal, you have no idea who you are talking to.

[torchbearer]

Reported.

And trust me, pal, you have no idea who you are talking to.

:rolleyes: I'm talking to human that bleeds and breathes.

[He Who Pawns]

Enjoy your time off from the forum, and if your plan is to attack me, you better spend that time at the gym.

[torchbearer]

Enjoy your time off from the forum, and if your plan is to attack me, you better spend that time at the gym.

:D

[Aratus]

You have to file regardless of whether you make 1 cent or 1 million dollars. That video could be used as evidence in a federal case to put Mr Kokesh in jail for a long time. I suggest removing the links here and deleting the video at its source, as soon as possible.


could the IRS jump onto his new gov't salary and
"repo" the same so as to get the money out of his hide?

[torchbearer]

could the IRS jump onto his new gov't salary and
"repo" the same so as to get the money out of his hide?

government officials are paid with tax money. they don't produce anything.
sounds like a fair trade.

[LittleLightShining]

I haven't read the whole thread but here's my take:

IF Adam explains why he hasn't paid taxes and makes no apologies, connects his refusal to pay to the failure of the govt to redress the grievances of the people... basically what We The People Foundation and the Continental Congress are hinting at, I think he would find increased support.

There are plenty of people in the upper echelons of govt who have weasled their way out of paying taxes for no purpose other than greed. I imagine Adam's position is much more principled. He should make no apology and come out with it himself instead of having to play defense.

[torchbearer]

I haven't read the whole thread but here's my take:

IF Adam explains why he hasn't paid taxes and makes no apologies, connects his refusal to pay to the failure of the govt to redress the grievances of the people... basically what We The People Foundation and the Continental Congress are hinting at, I think he would find increased support.

There are plenty of people in the upper echelons of govt who have weasled their way out of paying taxes for no purpose other than greed. I imagine Adam's position is much more principled. He should make no apology and come out with it himself instead of having to play defense.

I'd start with the picture of him wearing the white armband.
I think it was the owner of this forum that started slaveuprising.com
There are many here who have made that pledge.

[jsu718]

Due to this thread my support for Adam has increased... and my opinion of He Who Pawns has decreased.

[torchbearer]

Due to this thread my support for Adam has increased... and my opinion of He Who Pawns has decreased.

+Spirit of '76.

[MRoCkEd]

I had forgotten that Adam started protesting the income tax. As noble as this is, it provides perfect fodder for his opponent.
Some people here think he can turn it into a positive. I have trouble believing this, but if its true, more power to him...

[torchbearer]

I had forgotten that Adam started protesting the income tax. As noble as this is, it provides perfect fodder for his opponent. :(

Glenn Beck has been discussing this a lot lately. I think the time is ripe for such an idea. especially with the "Tea Party" stuff going on.
We should be allowed to vote with our dollars. If this is a free society, and government has grown out of control. This is what you as an individual can do to stop it.

[He Who Pawns]

All Kokesh's opponents need to do is forward this thread to the IRS and Kokesh is on his way to the slammer. Sounds like a recipe for victory to me.

Again I will ask: Why did Kokesh fail to reveal this information to donors before soliciting their hard-earned money? Why has no one answered that question, including Kokesh himself? I was very explicit in questioning him on his background, and he was very explicit answering... except the part where he left out breaking federal tax laws that could land him in prison for years.

[MRoCkEd]

Glenn Beck has been discussing this a lot lately. I think the time is ripe for such an idea. especially with the "Tea Party" stuff going on.
But isn't Kokesh's district overwhelmingly democratic? I doubt many of them are "teabaggers".

[torchbearer]

But isn't Kokesh's district overwhelmingly democratic? I doubt many of them are "teabaggers".

I don't know his district, but I do know that as people are getting raped by the economy, and soon to be more federal taxes- this issue needs to be discussed.
It will take someone brave to do it.

[ItsTime]

Yup Ron Paul never should have run because he said he thinks crazy things and never had a chance to win.

[qh4dotcom]

Glenn Beck has been discussing this a lot lately. I think the time is ripe for such an idea. especially with the "Tea Party" stuff going on.
We should be allowed to vote with our dollars. If this is a free society, and government has grown out of control. This is what you as an individual can do to stop it.

Unfortunately you can't vote with your tax dollars...if you don't shell them out the government has the option of borrowing or printing them

[torchbearer]

Unfortunately you can't vote with your tax dollars...if you don't shell them out the government has the option of borrowing or printing them

if the government was funded 100% by borrowing and printing, it wouldn't last much longer.
To those who lend to the government by buying bonds- how would they get their money back without it being depreciated- effectively giving it a negative return?

[qh4dotcom]

All Kokesh's opponents need to do is forward this thread to the IRS and Kokesh is on his way to the slammer. Sounds like a recipe for victory to me.

Again I will ask: Why did Kokesh fail to reveal this information to donors before soliciting their hard-earned money? Why has no one answered that question, including Kokesh himself? I was very explicit in questioning him on his background, and he was very explicit answering... except the part where he left out breaking federal tax laws that could land him in prison for years.

Because his #1 priority is to spread the liberty message...winning would be nice but it's not as important as spreading the liberty message. Do you think the folks who donated would disagree with this?

[ItsTime]

if the government was funded 100% by borrowing and printing, it wouldn't last much longer.
To those who lend to the government by buying bonds- how would they get their money back without it being depreciated- effectively giving it a negative return?

And you cant borrow if you dont have collateral (tax dollars coming in)

[qh4dotcom]

if the government was funded 100% by borrowing and printing, it wouldn't last much longer.
To those who lend to the government by buying bonds- how would they get their money back without it being depreciated- effectively giving it a negative return?

True but were not talking 100% here...we're talking about the tiny percentage of dollars from folks who are smart enough to realize what the government is doing. You can't include the 60%+ of folks who currently approve of the Obama administration.

[torchbearer]

True but were not talking 100% here...we're talking about the tiny percentage of dollars from folks who are smart enough to realize what the government is doing. You can't include the 60%+ of folks who currently approve of the Obama administration.

I wouldn't take 100%, it would take about 3%.

[nobody's_hero]

All Kokesh's opponents need to do is forward this thread to the IRS and Kokesh is on his way to the slammer. Sounds like a recipe for victory to me.

Again I will ask: Why did Kokesh fail to reveal this information to donors before soliciting their hard-earned money? Why has no one answered that question, including Kokesh himself? I was very explicit in questioning him on his background, and he was very explicit answering... except the part where he left out breaking federal tax laws that could land him in prison for years.

Oh puh-lease!

First of all, Kokesh has done so much by now, that if the Feds want to send him to the slammer, failure to pay into the income tax system is going to be the least of the charges.

Second of all, if you haven't learned to research candidates for yourself, then how did you come to join the rEVOLution? I thought that being an informed voter was one advantage that we have over the vast majority of lever pullers who are ruining this country every 2 and 4 years. :rolleyes:

Please don't pretend like this is some shock to you, that an anti-war patriot has finally decided to starve the federal government by not contributing to the war by proxy (paying taxes). If only I were bold enough to stop paying them. If only we all were . . .

Ron Paul was the first ever candidate to whom I donated money. You'd best believe I was fully aware of his positions and his character, and I gave careful consideration before sending so much as a penny his way. Even though he didn't win, I now realize without a doubt that it was the best $225 that was ever 'solicited from me.'

PETER, RAND, RJ, ADAM, and the many other liberty candidates are not in a competition against each other. They all deserve our support.

[jsu718]

So basically we are going to replace all the drug criminals in jails with tax evaders... I could go for that.

[torchbearer]

So basically we are going to replace all the drug criminals in jails with tax evaders... I could go for that.

either way- the government will be drained financially.

[nayjevin]

Adam did not lie to HWP. Maybe he didn't take him seriously, but neither do I.


Who needs enemies with friends like you.

+1

I have no idea who this HWP guy is. All I know is that he and people like him are why I rarely post here anymore.

If he's not paid or have personal incentive to pull this crap, then my guess is that he is immature and anti-social, lacking the common sense necessary to approach things in an effective manner.

If the latter is the case, I just encourage him to try doing something productive instead.

In either case, I wish he'd go away.

-------

Adam's run is not about votes. He may be the first candidate in my lifetime that actually says what he believes, no matter the consequences.

Won't that be refreshing? I know that's the kind of candidate I've been waiting for.

[He Who Pawns]

I had a hunch that Kokesh was hiding something in his past that would prevent him from winning a congressional race, and my hunch turned out to be correct. Why do you think I grilled him repeatedly on these subjects? For fun?

So now that my skepticism has been proven correct, why am I being attacked for this? Why aren't you Kokesh followers directing your anger at Kokesh himself, since he lied by omission when he was asked DIRECTLY on this forum whether there was any unlawful activity like this in his past that might hurt his campaign. Kokesh lied by not answering that question honestly. He defrauded everyone who invested in his campaign thinking he had a shot at winning.

Anyway, I had a very strong hunch that Kokesh was hiding something from all of us, and now I have been proven 100% correct. The super-die-hard Kokesh followers will try to shoot the messenger, rather than dealing with the message.

IMO, Kokesh should concentrate on activism, and drop this foolish and ill-adivised "campaign" in a district that would be impossible for him to win, even without a federal trial on tax evasion hanging over his head.

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I had a hunch that Kokesh was hiding something in his past that would prevent him from winning a congressional race, and my hunch turned out to be correct. Why do you think I grilled him repeatedly on these subjects? For fun?

So now that my skepticism has been proven correct, why am I being attacked for this? Why aren't you Kokesh followers directing your anger at Kokesh himself, since he lied by omission when he was asked DIRECTLY on this forum whether there was any unlawful activity like this in his past that might hurt his campaign. Kokesh lied by not answering that question honestly. He defrauded everyone who invested in his campaign thinking he had a shot at winning.

Anyway, I had a very strong hunch that Kokesh was hiding something from all of us, and now I have been proven 100% correct. The super-die-hard Kokesh followers will try to shoot the messenger, rather than dealing with the message.

IMO, Kokesh should concentrate on activism, and drop this foolish and ill-adivised "campaign" in a district that would be impossible for him to win, even without a federal trial on tax evasion hanging over his head.

There's a difference between making a point and being obnoxious, you've opted for the latter.

[ItsTime]

Fighting for liberty is not a clean sport

[He Who Pawns]

Anyway, I've had enough of this nonsense. My point has been proven. I feel I am owed apologies by those who attacked me for asking basic questions of Kokesh -- questions that every candidate should be asked.

Peace.

[ItsTime]

Anyway, I've had enough of this nonsense. My point has been proven. I feel I am owed apologies by those who attacked me for asking basic questions of Kokesh -- questions that every candidate should be asked.

Peace.

You wont get that here. Trust me on that ;)

[nobody's_hero]

Adam, if you are reading through this thread, please see to it that He Who Pawns has his donation—oops, I mean—stolen money returned to him, at all possible lengths. He is obviously more sore about this issue that I had thought.

I will try to donate whatever he gave (if any) plus my personal commitment of $10, as pledged to each of the liberty candidates who have announced (or are likely to announce) so far, and hopefully more in the future, if my budget allows for it (although, I might have to ask that you wait until the state of Georgia sends my income tax refund in the mail. [10 to 12 weeks my ass.]).



If we are mark'd to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.

—St. Crispen's Day Speech, William Shakespeare

------------------

“I’m a winner, pal.” ... “Winning matters to me. If it doesn’t matter to you, there’s the exit sign.” “I’m not going to give this party over to people who can’t win.” – Lindsey Graham

http://www.thenextright.com/jon-henke/lindsey-graham-loser

[Bman]

Well, I guess as long as he's not actually planning to win, and doesn't mind going to federal prison, sure, by all means, let's keep supporting him.

It's not like we have legitimate candidates such as Rand Paul who need our help. :rolleyes:


If you haven't figured it out by now this is a place of individuals not a collective. At this point it's not that you disagree that annoys me it is that Mr. Kokesh has at this point taken the time to answer this question.

It's obvious that you have made your point. This place isn't looking for leadership. It's looking for ideas. What can you offer?

[nayjevin]

I had a hunch
not interested in hunches but facts


that Kokesh was hiding something in his past
no he wasn't it's on youtube duh


that would prevent him from winning a congressional race
opinion stated as fact


and my hunch turned out to be correct.
false statement

bored already. bye

[Nathan Hale]

If you haven't figured it out by now this is a place of individuals not a collective. At this point it's not that you disagree that annoys me it is that Mr. Kokesh has at this point taken the time to answer this question.

It's obvious that you have made your point. This place isn't looking for leadership. It's looking for ideas. What can you offer?

But leadership is necessary. This is only a movement if we compromise between ourselves to back a strategy. Everybody doing their own thing is a surefire recipe for failure. This debate is relevant because our movement has limited resources (i.e. our campaign donations). If Kokesh is a tax protester and makes it known, then he has zero viability as a candidate and therefore it is a waste of donation dollars to fund him. I'm all for individualism as a political philosophy, but recognize that this movement is a social entity that is larger than just the collection of individual efforts that comprise it. Submitting ourselves to the common good of the movement by choice is what makes movements happen.

[nayjevin]

If Kokesh is a tax protester and makes it known, then he has zero viability as a candidate and therefore it is a waste of donation dollars to fund him.

I would say, if Kokesh is a tax protester and makes it known, then that will be a first ever, SFAIK, therefore huge media attention.

'Viability' is irrelevant. First, no one can define it prior to voting results. Second, the positive effects of a campaign do not begin and end with the voting count. Ron Paul lost. Do you wish he hadn't run?


I'm all for individualism as a political philosophy, but recognize that this movement is a social entity that is larger than just the collection of individual efforts that comprise it. Submitting ourselves to the common good of the movement by choice is what makes movements happen.

there are many 'common goods', but they are meaningless unless considered individually - as is the case with all things. this is the lesson we're fighting for! free market means all individuals act according to their own best interests!

Adam giving speeches on the campaign trail, getting interviews in the media, being in debates at town halls, etc, are but a few individual examples of 'common goods'. Making sure that can happen is worth my money -- I am sure of that. If it isn't worth yours, or anyone elses, that's fine!

No one should agree to do things they don't believe in for the 'common good'. We should all make our own decisions, and I do appreciate folks raising questions, stating their opinion ONCE that they don't think this is a wise money expenditure -- but multiple times, using force to derail threads - continually stalking and harrassing an individual -- is unacceptable, and suspicious.

[nayjevin]

* I have gone overboard defending unpopular decisions, critical of projects, etc. Maybe I come off like HWP at times.
* I recognize that it's possible that it would be better to send all dollars to Rand and none to Adam
* It will never be possible to prove that one way or the other however - we all can only guess and learn from observing results
* We need people to defend unpopular decisions - Ron Paul does, Goldwater did, Jefferson did, etc
* It should be done with class, in the proper place
* Kokesh should be a representative of our country in my mind. Therefore, I will support him - no matter what other people believe. This is the same reasoning I use when choosing to vote for a candidate - to hell with 'electability', to me it's about principles.

[nayjevin]

another thing I often wonder is, what would happen if a candidate just said what they believed? I mean, I always thought George Carlin could win an election. Maybe not, but how would we know? The disenfranchised is a HUGE voting bloc.

[ClayTrainor]

another thing I often wonder is, what would happen if a candidate just said what they believed? I mean, I always thought George Carlin could win an election. Maybe not, but how would we know? The disenfranchised is a HUGE voting bloc.

That is a great point. Adam will not hold back, this is going to be something worth watching, you can bet on that :cool:

[Bman]

But leadership is necessary. This is only a movement if we compromise between ourselves to back a strategy. Everybody doing their own thing is a surefire recipe for failure. This debate is relevant because our movement has limited resources (i.e. our campaign donations). If Kokesh is a tax protester and makes it known, then he has zero viability as a candidate and therefore it is a waste of donation dollars to fund him. I'm all for individualism as a political philosophy, but recognize that this movement is a social entity that is larger than just the collection of individual efforts that comprise it. Submitting ourselves to the common good of the movement by choice is what makes movements happen.

Call me an objectivist if you will. I'm not voting for someone because they have the best chance of winning. I'm voting for someone who has the right message.

The carrier of that message for me will not be my leader, nor will they want to be. He/She will be a voice. A voice I will support because I think people should hear them. Not because they will lead people, but because they will make people lead themselves.

Maybe Adam's not right for you, but he is right for many people of this type of movement. If you don't think he has a chance of winning, well then spend your money where you see it best. I'm not in this to be on the winning side. I'm in this to win.

[JamesButabi]

Call me an objectivist if you will. I'm not voting for someone because they have the best chance of winning. I'm voting for someone who has the right message.


X2. Im sure Adam would be willing to refund the donations to people who feel duped. I for one think its admirable to have someone willing to get on the big stage with such activism in place.

[Nathan Hale]

I would say, if Kokesh is a tax protester and makes it known, then that will be a first ever, SFAIK, therefore huge media attention.

Tax protestors run for office all the time, and are simply dismissed as kooks.


'Viability' is irrelevant. First, no one can define it prior to voting results.

Sure, there's no absolute certainty, but there is reasonable inference based on the evidence presented.


Second, the positive effects of a campaign do not begin and end with the voting count. Ron Paul lost. Do you wish he hadn't run?

I've often said the same thing, but Ron Paul got the media attention that made his campaign a "winner" BECAUSE he passed several mainstream qualifiers. Had Ron Paul been an avowed tax protestor his campaign would never have taken off.


there are many 'common goods', but they are meaningless unless considered individually - as is the case with all things. this is the lesson we're fighting for! free market means all individuals act according to their own best interests!

This works politically, because government is an organization that we do not consent to be a part of. But a movement is something we choose to be a part of, so the same moral high horse does not apply.


Adam giving speeches on the campaign trail, getting interviews in the media, being in debates at town halls, etc, are but a few individual examples of 'common goods'. Making sure that can happen is worth my money -- I am sure of that. If it isn't worth yours, or anyone elses, that's fine!

I'm not forcing you to withdraw your support for Adam. I'm just saying that it's poor strategy for you to support him if the allegations are true that he's a tax protester.


No one should agree to do things they don't believe in for the 'common good'.

That's incorrect. If four people form an organization to seed the lawn, they need to compromise among themselves as to how to go about purchasing the seed and seeding the lawn. In other words, some in the organization will need to take a path they don't necessarily agree with, in order to achieve the shared objective of seeding the lawn. That's the ONLY WAY an effective organization can work. Everybody insisting on taking their own path with no priority given to central strategy is the recipe for failure.


We should all make our own decisions, and I do appreciate folks raising questions, stating their opinion ONCE that they don't think this is a wise money expenditure -- but multiple times, using force to derail threads - continually stalking and harrassing an individual -- is unacceptable, and suspicious.

Well I don't remember condoning harassment, but so long as the debate is viable it should be had, because the alternative - poor strategic choices, is worse. Granted, if you're being harassed, you should complain to the admins about it.

[Sean]

He Who Owns is correct here I think. If Adam is running as a practicing tax resister he should make that crystal clear to all. Might as well also light up a blunt during one of the debates. He can maybe pull off a stunt like speeding around town with some crack. Then once he gets pulled over by the officer booyah major publicity. Think of all the media exposure the legalization of drugs will then receive.

[He Who Pawns]

He Who Owns is correct here I think. If Adam is running as a practicing tax resister he should make that crystal clear to all. Might as well also light up a blunt during one of the debates.

LMFAO. For THIS, I would donate. :D

[Kraig]

So you guys want someone virtuous to run for congress, just not too virtuous. Politics are pathetic, +1 for Adam.

[Ninja Homer]

It's tough to call if this will hurt Kokesh's chances, or help them. Everybody I know is against the income tax and would prefer that ALL politicians were against the income tax. It might get a lot of people interested who normally wouldn't be... it may be a lot more people than the ones who wouldn't support somebody just because they don't pay income tax.

For what it's worth, Peter Schiff will probably have the exact same problem. As I'm sure most everybody here knows, his father (Irwin Schiff) is in prison for not paying taxes. Also, Peter Schiff is credited as a co-author of "The Great Income Tax Hoax: Why You Can Immediately Stop Paying This Illegally Enforced Tax".

[Dreamofunity]

So you guys want someone virtuous to run for congress, just not too virtuous. Politics are pathetic, +1 for Adam.

Exactly, which is why someone as virtuous as Adam should avoid politics and stick to activism. Regardless of how principled and morally superior Adam's position is, it won't work in politics.

[nobody's_hero]

I shouldn't have to remind you folks that our options for saving this country are running out:

1) Elect more liberty candidates to congress (remember: beggars can't be choosers)
2) Article V Convention (which is about as popular around here as a rock sandwich)
3) "Water the liberty tree" (you first :rolleyes:)

Activism is great for education, but just as much so is politics. Activism just doesn't net you a vote in the House or Senate if it is successful.

I had NEVER heard of Ron Paul before the Republican debates, and you'd better believe I'd have never heard of him if he had gone around speaking at places like the Mises Institute, because I'd have never heard of Mises either. I'd have never questioned the FED. I'd have kept on thinking that it was necessary to sacrifice a little bit of liberty for security. I'd have kept on thinking of the Arabs as just a nasty 'ole group of people that hate us because we're free; that to support the troops, you must support the war. I would never have voted. I would still be thinking of the Constitution as a flexible, "living" document rather than a strict, written rule of law intended to restrain the federal government. I'd still be cracking jokes about nuking Iraq and turning it into a parking lot. I would have thought the "gold and silver tender" folks were just loonies. I'd have never researched—in depth—the founding fathers of this nation and found out just how far we have run it off course.

Don't tell me what won't work in politics.

[Kraig]

Exactly, which is why someone as virtuous as Adam should avoid politics and stick to activism. Regardless of how principled and morally superior Adam's position is, it won't work in politics.

Well I think that applies to everyone, I'm not really the one who advocates people to run for office. Like NB said we are running out of time, I still think a tax protest is the best way we can overthrow the federal government without initiating violence.

[cheapseats]

Unfortunately you can't vote with your tax dollars...

I will argue that the Wallet is the most powerful of ALL votes -- be it spending/sending or be it withholding/denying funds without which the government cannot continue to do what it is doing.

[Kraig]

I will argue that the Wallet is the most powerful of ALL votes -- be it spending/sending or be it withholding/denying funds without which the government cannot continue to do what it is doing.

Far more of an impact than a vote that so far is just overturned by the so called will of the majority, and that's if they even count the votes honestly.

[cheapseats]

You guys are fooling yourselves. Wake up to reality.

Damn near all of America is fooling themselves, what's new?

I will argue that "waking up to reality" absolutely includes confronting THIS reality: if You-generic are still willingly sending this sham government money i.e. if the taxes you are paying are not automatically deducted from wages or levied upon purchases, You-generic are a HUGE-like-billion-dollar part of the problem.



It's over for Kokesh. And it should never have started. No one did the basic background checks needed -- just as I told all of you.

I don't know you from Adam, and I'd REALLY prefer to cross swords with Bad Guys than Board Members -- and mind, I DO know how it feels to be disrespectfully lambasted for asking questions and expressing opinions that don't dovetail with the quote-unquote non-collectivist libertarians -- but your posts in this thread have imparted to me the impression of antipathy that surpasses the Tax Denier issue.

[cheapseats]

If we think Kokesh is going to get the same consideration for not paying his taxes as all of Obama's appointees we're deluding ourselves. This isn't a good thing for him trying to run for Congress.

It's not about GETTING the same consideration-read-that-leeway as is granted to those on the inside track -- for they shall never GIVE it. America needs desperately to get over this crazy notion that people surrender advantage. It's about DEMANDING the same leeway as is granted to the Elite and the Entrenched. It's about TAKING what is rightly ours.

[cheapseats]

I'm not sure we'd want to draw attention to it, it's a political negative.

If he would win, he has no choice but to draw attention to it. What, if we agree that mum's the word, his opponents will play along?




Especially if he's on record saying he did it on purpose. I'm not sure how Kokesh expects to win with this on his record.

By drawing attention TO his purposeful withholding of funds that would CLEARLY be used to further the very actions he strenuously opposes. If his income is negligible, all the better. Let us focus on the PRINCIPLE of the thing. You-generic CANNOT fund ventures and then posture yourself innocent of their consequences.

[cheapseats]

I think Adam is on the same level as Irwin Schiff- both patriots whom we should respect.

Here's how long ago I was at university -- there was a dismissive saying, "that and a dime will get you a phone call." Let us count up the people for whom we have Respect, but whose ideas we sideline while playing Business & Politics As Usual. Hell, we can start with Mother Theresa -- SHE was much respected, not that anyone really jumped on the alleviation of misery bandwagon.

[cheapseats]

Sure he has actually even had a job though? Kinda hard to be a full time activist and be a full time employee.

Kinda hard to be holding one office and running for another, kinda bogus to be getting paid for a job you're not doing while fundraising and campaigning for a promotion -- where is the outcry about THAT?

[cheapseats]

Case closed.

Cases are NEVER closed -- that is the hallmark of Big Law.

Case closed on what scumbags Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Karl Rove are, eh?

And yet, in reverse order, Karl Rove is a "trusted" FOX correspondent, Donald Rumsfeld was offered a chair at STANFORD UNIVERSITY, and Dick Cheney is back -- like a sexually transmitted disease.

[cheapseats]

Please don't. I am a proud tax resistor, and will continue to be. I don't plan to run on the issue, but won't run from it.

With respect, I advise you to re-think that. Running FROM it would be political suicide, to be sure. Running ON it, in a this-conviction-commands-that-action kinda way, would be bold and logical. Bold + Logical = Change.



I would be more ashamed to be paying my taxes than not. If the IRS comes after me, the effect will be similar to what happened when the Marine Corps tried to make an example out of me, and instead, I was called the "Pentagon's worst public relations nightmare."

The more reason to bring Tax Resistance front-stage and center. Tax Resistance is an integral part of Redress of Grievances.

[torchbearer]

Here's how long ago I was at university -- there was a dismissive saying, "that and a dime will get you a phone call." Let us count up the people for whom we have Respect, but whose ideas we sideline while playing Business & Politics As Usual. Hell, we can start with Mother Theresa -- SHE was much respected, not that anyone really jumped on the alleviation of misery bandwagon.

People were only paying lip-service. They say they respect these people because that is what is expected.
If HWPs respects Irwin how can he not respect Adam?

[cheapseats]

People were only paying lip-service. They say they respect these people because that is what is expected.
If HWPs respects Irwin how can he not respect Adam?

Perhaps he only respects people who are punished for going out on a limb.

Lotsa people applaud ballsy "right" moves but, since they never could or would take the same risk, they don't really wanna see another REWARDED for it.

Like I said, I don't know He Who Pawns from Adam -- I don't know ADAM from Adam -- but I've learned a lot about people in a half-century, I can tell you that. And as with an impressionist painting, you have to stand a ways back for it to be a pretty picture.

[MRoCkEd]

If HWPs respects Irwin how can he not respect Adam?
I don't think he lacks respect for Adam the man or his stance on taxes; however, he thinks his actions will make a political victory close to impossible.

[torchbearer]

I don't think he lacks respect for Adam the man or his stance on taxes; however, he thinks his actions will make a political victory close to impossible.

in this thread he may seem like that-but HWPs has been on a witch hunt from the beginning- before this info was even known. The first words out of his mouth weren't "let's give this guy a chance", but "this guy doesn't have a chance" (ie he will take money from my favorite candidates- Adam is a waste). He has been saying that from the beginning. A lack of respect from the beginning. So your post is false.

[cheapseats]

I don't think he lacks respect for Adam the man or his stance on taxes; however, he thinks his actions will make a political victory close to impossible.


With respect, I think people need to quit saying what they think other people think.

"Close to impossible" doesn't come close to assertion that the thread should be shut down, or never begun.

[cheapseats]

I guess the issue is that however righteous and courageous resisting taxes is, it will be a huge detriment to being elected to public office.

Or it could be an unforgettable calling card.

Please don't make me haul out the platitudes . . . lemons >> lemonade, challenge = opportunity, when the going gets tough, et al. ;)

[cheapseats]

We all agree with Adam on principle.

But I would agree with him for being a drug dealer as well, because I think drugs should be legal. What if we found out that Adam was the biggest drug dealer in New Mexico? Sure, in theory we would support him, but not for congress.

Americans are not clamoring for the de-criminalization of drugs -- obviously, or they wouldn't stand by year after year while money is wasted and miscarriage of justice is committed in the War On Drugs.

Americans ARE clamoring for tax relief. I am ashamed to say that they are clamoring for tax relief MORE than they are clamoring for an end to the war in which we have been mired for more than half a decade.

Adam Kokesh has the opportunity to FORCE Americans to NOTE THE CONNECTION between War and Taxation. I don't know whether Thomas Paine was the first to articulate it but "Rights of Man" is where I first read that whereas taxes were once levied to wage war, war is now waged to levy taxes.

[MRoCkEd]

I don't think he lacks respect for Adam the man or his stance on taxes; however, he thinks his actions will make a political victory close to impossible.

A lack of respect from the beginning. So your post is false.
I didn't say he doesn't lack respect for Adam. I said I don't think he lacks respect for Adam. My post was true, but maybe my thought was wrong. :p


The guy is a shameless and annoying self promoter. That is my honest opinion. I support the Rand and Schiff forums here, but my honest assessment of this guy is that he's too weird and annoying for a congressional run.

Okay, my thought was wrong. :eek:
I disagree with this, and think Adam is awesome. However, I do agree that his tax issue will destroy him in the race, unfortunately. :(

[torchbearer]

I don't know whether Thomas Paine was the first to articulate it but "Rights of Man" is where I first read that whereas taxes were once levied to wage war, war is now waged to levy taxes.

Need to send that line to Adam.

[Bill M DC]

Kokesh should concentrate on activism, not running for office, especially in a district with 70% minorities or whatever.

This forum should be closed. In fact, it should never have been opened.

I would also like to get personal apologies from those who accused me of causing trouble by asking Kokesh basic background questions that should have revealed this problem, had he answered them in full.

I apologize......................................... .................................................. ........................











































































NOT!!!!!:D

No one accused you of anything. You were admonished to be professional and respectful in your approach. You were aggressive, insulting and absolutely juvenile in your posting and replies to other forum members.

It will be a cold day in hell before I see it any other way.

[nayjevin]

Tax protestors run for office all the time, and are simply dismissed as kooks.

By some, yes. Not by me. I think taxes are immoral, and it's about time it became popular to say so.


Sure, there's no absolute certainty, but there is reasonable inference based on the evidence presented.Very true. The evidence I am looking at is the Ron Paul campaign - before it happened, it appeared there was zero chance it would have a substantial impact. But it changed the political landscape.

A congressional run doesn't have any chance of having an impact that a presidential run does - of course -- but it also costs 1/50th as much.

So can the same thing happen in New Mexico? No one knows -- but Adam can make waves -- that's for sure. And we know how to spread the smoke signals better than ever before.


I've often said the same thing, but Ron Paul got the media attention that made his campaign a "winner" BECAUSE he passed several mainstream qualifiers. Had Ron Paul been an avowed tax protestor his campaign would never have taken off.But I bet there are at least twice as many people aware of the immorality of income tax now as there were when Ron ran. And he ran to abolish it!

Adam is not only running against the income tax - he has refused to pay it on principle. And he is in a unique position to tell first hand what other people, who are paying it -- are paying for.


This works politically, because government is an organization that we do not consent to be a part of. But a movement is something we choose to be a part of, so the same moral high horse does not apply. I am part of no movement -- I volunteer for projects I believe in.


I'm not forcing you to withdraw your support for Adam. I'm just saying that it's poor strategy for you to support him if the allegations are true that he's a tax protester.You could be right there are better uses for one's time and money - but I don't believe it can be truthfully said that it is 'poor strategy.' Such a view seems nearsighted to me. Have you seen his website? This campaign is not messing around.

http://www.kokeshforcongress.com

No matter the vote counts -- Adam's voice will be heard. He's getting press in New Mexico already. What's wrong with that? It IS activism -- and in fact, being a congressional candidate gives opportunities for activism that he could not have had before.


That's incorrect. If four people form an organization to seed the lawn, they need to compromise among themselves as to how to go about purchasing the seed and seeding the lawn. In other words, some in the organization will need to take a path they don't necessarily agree with, in order to achieve the shared objective of seeding the lawn. That's the ONLY WAY an effective organization can work. Everybody insisting on taking their own path with no priority given to central strategy is the recipe for failure.I see your point -- if I volunteer to be a part of a group decision making process -- I can't expect all to go by my rules exactly. That's not what's happening here.

I'm donating to a single individual I believe in.


Well I don't remember condoning harassment,you didn't


but so long as the debate is viable it should be had, because the alternative - poor strategic choices, is worse. Granted, if you're being harassed, you should complain to the admins about it.agreed

[KCIndy]

Okay, since I haven't weighed in yet, I may as well add my two cents to the debate and take my share of the "flaming."


FIRST: Think about the anti-tax feelings sweeping the nation right now. There was a good reason the "Tea Party" events in April were so well attended, and it WASN'T because a bunch of "right wing neocons" were upset that Obama was elected, as the media did their best to spin it. People are fed up with onerous tax burdens. We're paying too many taxes, and too much each time we pay. We're seeing the money wasted.
A recent Glenn Beck segment had well-known actor Craig T. Nelson threatening to refuse to pay taxes anymore because he hates to see the direction this country is headed. That was a landmark moment, folks. All it would take is someone as well spoken as Adam Kokesh to be the spark that finally ignites the overpacked keg of tax resentment.

SECOND: Is donating to Adam Kokesh's campaign going to detract from money raised by Rand Paul, Pete Schiff, et al? I really doubt it. The liberty/freedom movement is growing quickly. See the above statement. When you think about the number of people who can be reached via Campaign for Liberty, Break the Matrix.com, Ron Paul Forums, Gun Owners of America (which is usually quick to endorse libertarian-minded pro-gun candidates) various Libertarian sites, these very forums here, and any number of mailing lists left over from the Ron Paul '08 campaign, I'm sure there are going to be enough donors and enough donations to go around. I plan on supporting all three of the above mentioned candidates, and there's plenty of time to plan, prepare, and put some money back for donations.

THIRD: Given Adam's military service, think of the PR catastrophe it would be for the IRS to go after an Iraq War veteran who, after seeing some of the atrocities committed by our nation with our tax dollars, refuses to pay into a system he *knows* to be corrupt. Further, he's not just talking about it - he's running for office to try to change it. The IRS would likely have to take a huge PR hit over it at a time when people are already irritated at having to pay onerously high levels of taxes and then watch the money being wasted - or worse, used for actions by the U.S. government that almost none of the population supports.


Okay.... flame away! I'm wearing my Nomex suit! :D

[AuH20]

It's tough to call if this will hurt Kokesh's chances, or help them. Everybody I know is against the income tax and would prefer that ALL politicians were against the income tax. It might get a lot of people interested who normally wouldn't be... it may be a lot more people than the ones who wouldn't support somebody just because they don't pay income tax.

For what it's worth, Peter Schiff will probably have the exact same problem. As I'm sure most everybody here knows, his father (Irwin Schiff) is in prison for not paying taxes. Also, Peter Schiff is credited as a co-author of "The Great Income Tax Hoax: Why You Can Immediately Stop Paying This Illegally Enforced Tax".

Poorer minorities largely don't pay federal income tax. However, they like their services. Adam doesnt contribute to this pool funding the various services they receive from the government. In other words, he's a severe underdog in an entitlement district. However, I think he should run anyway to gain notoriety and expose Lujan.

[cheapseats]

Okay, since I haven't weighed in yet, I may as well add my two cents to the debate and take my share of the "flaming."


FIRST: Think about the anti-tax feelings sweeping the nation right now. There was a good reason the "Tea Party" events in April were so well attended, and it WASN'T because a bunch of "right wing neocons" were upset that Obama was elected, as the media did their best to spin it. People are fed up with onerous tax burdens. We're paying too many taxes, and too much each time we pay. We're seeing the money wasted.
A recent Glenn Beck segment had well-known actor Craig T. Nelson threatening to refuse to pay taxes anymore because he hates to see the direction this country is headed. That was a landmark moment, folks. All it would take is someone as well spoken as Adam Kokesh to be the spark that finally ignites the overpacked keg of tax resentment.

SECOND: Is donating to Adam Kokesh's campaign going to detract from money raised by Rand Paul, Pete Schiff, et al? I really doubt it. The liberty/freedom movement is growing quickly. See the above statement. When you think about the number of people who can be reached via Campaign for Liberty, Break the Matrix.com, Ron Paul Forums, Gun Owners of America (which is usually quick to endorse libertarian-minded pro-gun candidates) various Libertarian sites, these very forums here, and any number of mailing lists left over from the Ron Paul '08 campaign, I'm sure there are going to be enough donors and enough donations to go around. I plan on supporting all three of the above mentioned candidates, and there's plenty of time to plan, prepare, and put some money back for donations.

THIRD: Given Adam's military service, think of the PR catastrophe it would be for the IRS to go after an Iraq War veteran who, after seeing some of the atrocities committed by our nation with our tax dollars, refuses to pay into a system he *knows* to be corrupt. Further, he's not just talking about it - he's running for office to try to change it. The IRS would likely have to take a huge PR hit over it at a time when people are already irritated at having to pay onerously high levels of taxes and then watch the money being wasted - or worse, used for actions by the U.S. government that almost none of the population supports.


Okay.... flame away! I'm wearing my Nomex suit! :D


Not with a blowtorch but respect, yes? I quite agree with One and Three, but I cannot overemphasize how important it will be to lose this cavalier attitude about money. A cavalier attitude toward other people's money is no small part of how we landed in this soup.

It's 'All Hail Peter Schiff' around here -- Dire Predictions R Us -- but then the infamous cognitive disconnect. There is ZERO reluctance to put upon and put upon and put upon people who are ALREADY being put upon and put upon and put upon. I "heard" one poster object to the price of some Meet Up or other, on toward $500 if I recall, only to hear another poster encourage him to TRY to get the sum together, if only for the networking.

The distinct majority of Board Members are men-read-that-proud. Will the fundraisers keep at people until, one by one, those who cannot afford to donate come clean? Plenty are well off? Excellent. When I read that one person will donate $1000 if others will jack it up to whatever, I cannot help but wonder why those who ARE well-off don't simply do that, then -- donate more, and let the broke people off the hook.

The people who want to do this crap for a living, and the Political Junkies whose HOBBY-read-that-AVOCATION is politics need to get it through their noggins that, just 'cuz THEY digg it and just 'cuz THEY'RE havin' fun, everyone else doesn't want to spend all their time and money policing something that would perk along without incident if we would only execute Traitors and ban Corrupt Officials from politics, finance and law. The bullshit would drop to negligible levels lickety-split.

Some people like to hunt, or bowl, or garden, or fish, or travel, or read, or whatever. This relentless fundraising and campaigning is ZERO VALUE ADDED -- except, of course, for the ones who are receiving money and basking in limelight. Even with all the aggravation and duplicity, it looks like kind of a nifty lifestyle, no? With GREAT respect to ronpaulhawaii, what he's doing looks like considerably more fun than workin' 9 to 5. Incidences of Police Brutality are on the rise. He can't pedal fast enough.

The Internet is like the eighth wonder of the world, fer cryin' out loud. There IS a way to do this smarter i.e. more efficiently and more effectively. That I don't have the hook/gimmick doesn't mean it doesn't exist, that we shouldn't be LOOKING for it. I'm not from Madison Avenue but I'm a Conspicuous Consumer from WAY back. Fundraise, fundraise, fundraise is as different from sell, sell, sell as weather, weather, weather is from location, location, location. Not that they're not all of consequence, they are. But selling and location trump fundraising and weather.

A hallmark of FREEDOM is INNOVATION.

What are y'all doing DIFFERENTLY from last time? I appreciate that there are more people, but not enough more. I appreciate that there is energy and enthusiasm, organization and delivery. But it's all being applied to a tired paradigm that has produced notoriously icky results.

I don't care how principled the candidate is. Good living is VERY seductive, and trading signatures is how they get the job done in our Sodom & Gomorrah of a capitol. A Politico will be tainted or a Politico will be ineffectual. The name of THAT game isn't changing without a COMMANDING SWEEP at the midterm elections. And PLEASE don't tell me (not you-you, You-generic) that we'll just work that much harder and win that many more seats. This is NOT the time for magical thinking.

And it is NOT the time to relieve rank-and-file of more of their hard-earned money.

I suggest that Adam Kokesh wrap up his anti-war position and his tax DEFIER (not Denier) status like a boxed two-piece set. Denier would almost certainly get him booted; Denier could well get him elected by a landslide. People are pretty pissed, thank GOD.

People will notice him MORE if he can claim, along with his Tax Denier status, that he is NOT hitting hard-pressed Americans up for cash. Reject the Congressional salary, how 'bout that? Let his supporters and constituents contribute his salary AFTER election.

I'm pretty sure THAT'S a gimmick that would garner media. And votes. And respect.

[cheapseats]

l


THE PRICE
OF PEACE

l

[He Who Pawns]

You people should stop encouraging this guy to go to prison. If you think jail is so great, why don't you go to jail yourselves, instead of encouraging someone else to?

If you think Kokesh's military service will protect him from the IRS, you are absolutely clueless about reality.

At this point, it wouldn't matter if someone came on here with photos and DNA evidence proving that Kokesh murdered someone, the last few dead-enders on this thread would still claim that he should keep running and "carry on the fight."

[disorderlyvision]

You people should stop encouraging this guy to go to prison. If you think jail is so great, why don't you go to jail yourselves, instead of encouraging someone else to?

If you think Kokesh's military service will protect him from the IRS, you are absolutely clueless about reality.

At this point, it wouldn't matter if someone came on here with photos and DNA evidence proving that Kokesh murdered someone, the last few dead-enders on this thread would still claim that he should keep running and "carry on the fight."

You need to change yur avatar. your going to make everyone have a negative opinion of Schiff. Everytime somone reads your drivel they see Schiff's picture before long they are going to have a negative reaction to Schiff. Behaviorism at its finest.

I haven't even been a member on these forums that long, and I already can't stand you. your always negative. you are doing more to hurt the movement then help it. you are either a saboteur, or a jackass.

[Nathan Hale]

Call me an objectivist if you will. I'm not voting for someone because they have the best chance of winning. I'm voting for someone who has the right message.

And I don't advise you to vote for someone who has the best chance of winning.


The carrier of that message for me will not be my leader, nor will they want to be. He/She will be a voice. A voice I will support because I think people should hear them. Not because they will lead people, but because they will make people lead themselves.

Alas, a Congressperson sets legislation for the country. Until we can change it, that is what we should expect our Congresspeople to do when they win the seat.


Maybe Adam's not right for you, but he is right for many people of this type of movement. If you don't think he has a chance of winning, well then spend your money where you see it best.

If this is a movement, than the rhetoric that we embrace shouldn't be "everyone just do their own thing". Because if that's what we're up for - then we WILL lose. I guarantee it. Organization is the only thing that will lead us to victory.


I'm not in this to be on the winning side. I'm in this to win.

Are you aware that your second sentence in the above quote contradicts the first?

[He Who Pawns]

I haven't even been a member on these forums that long, and I already can't stand you. your always negative.

Why don't you check the Rand and Schiff forums, and you will see that I am ALWAYS positive. have you stopped for 1 second to think that my reaction to Kokesh and his blind followers is due to something about Kokesh and his blind followers? amazing how I never bash Dr Paul, Rand, Schiff, the Judge, etc. only Kokesh. I wonder why that is? Maybe it's something to do with Kokesh himself?

For one thing, as a Vet myself, I don't appreciate him bragging about his "war exploits." real soldiers don't brag about what they have done. leave that for John McShame.

[Nathan Hale]

By some, yes. Not by me. I think taxes are immoral, and it's about time it became popular to say so.

This is immaterial. You said that Kokesh running on a platform of tax protesting was a unique "in". That's not true, as you admit. Tax protesters are routed at the polls because they're too far outside the mainstream. Whether or not you think it should become popular is irrelevant - the fact remains that it ISNT popular, and therefore running a candidate who espouses such resistance is counterproductive to the goals of this movement.


Very true. The evidence I am looking at is the Ron Paul campaign - before it happened, it appeared there was zero chance it would have a substantial impact. But it changed the political landscape.

Odd, because I knew that so long as Paul had access to the debates, he'd gather a reasonably large minority in the final tally.


A congressional run doesn't have any chance of having an impact that a presidential run does - of course -- but it also costs 1/50th as much.

The Presidential race and a Congressional race have more differences between them than simply scale. It's apples and oranges at its core. That said, 1/50th? It takes at least a quarter mil to pull off a successful Congressional race in even the least-noticed districts. That's no easy feat, even for this movement - especially in light of the many races that we'll be taking interest in.


So can the same thing happen in New Mexico? No one knows -- but Adam can make waves -- that's for sure. And we know how to spread the smoke signals better than ever before.

If "making waves" is the goal, there are more effective methods than running for office. The only reason to run for office is to WIN THE SEAT. If you're not running to win, you're wasting time and energy by running, because your time and energy can be far better applied.


But I bet there are at least twice as many people aware of the immorality of income tax now as there were when Ron ran. And he ran to abolish it!

Adam is not only running against the income tax - he has refused to pay it on principle. And he is in a unique position to tell first hand what other people, who are paying it -- are paying for.

This is also immaterial - I said that Ron Paul passed certain qualifier to become mainstream enough to compete, and Kokesh won't. That said, to address what you say above, there is a huge difference between advocating a repeal of the income tax and saying that you are already acting as if there isn't an income tax. If you need that difference elaborated on, I'll be happy to oblige.


I am part of no movement -- I volunteer for projects I believe in.

And that attitude is the reason why libertarianism amounts to nothing in American politics. Everybody doing their own thing is the ticket to failure. A movement that nets a quantifiable result REQUIRES concert from its many members.


You could be right there are better uses for one's time and money - but I don't believe it can be truthfully said that it is 'poor strategy.' Such a view seems nearsighted to me. Have you seen his website? This campaign is not messing around.

I quite easily, and truthfully say that it's poor strategy. It's poor strategy because you're banking a lot of money and manpower on the off-chance that Kokesh beats all reasonable inference and wins the seat. I don't care how awesome their website (though I do advocate that all proper candidates have good websites).


No matter the vote counts -- Adam's voice will be heard. He's getting press in New Mexico already. What's wrong with that? It IS activism -- and in fact, being a congressional candidate gives opportunities for activism that he could not have had before.

Being a Congressional candidate gets you a small degree of free press, but if you're not taken seriously, as Adam will not be once this tax thing gets out, his press coverage will never amount to anything. Which makes his campaign about as effective as a civil disobedience event or a protest event, both of which cost less than a Congressional campaign and are thus more effective uses of his (and his supporters) time and money. The great irony is that if you backed a mainstream candidate who pays his taxes, that candidate would get a lot MORE coverage, stand a much greater chance of getting elected, and then be in a far better position to ACTUALLY LOWER OR ELIMINATE TAXES.


I see your point -- if I volunteer to be a part of a group decision making process -- I can't expect all to go by my rules exactly. That's not what's happening here.

But that IS what's happening here. This is about changing the direction of this country. Everything else is subordinate to that end goal. Agreed? If so, then we are all working together to achieve that goal, right? If so, then sometimes, we need to follow along on lesser tasks that we might not be too enthusiastic about so long as they take us closer to achieving the grand strategy.


I'm donating to a single individual I believe in.

But it's larger than this race. Larger than this election cycle. It's about changing America, and that takes a lot of time, a lot of money, and a lot of effort. So it's important to set priorities and move together, in concert. Otherwise we're wasting time, money, and effort. And considering our opposition, we can't be spending such resources willy-nilly.

[Bman]

And I don't advise you to vote for someone who has the best chance of winning.

Ok:)


Alas, a Congressperson sets legislation for the country. Until we can change it, that is what we should expect our Congresspeople to do when they win the seat.

Well yes but he can fight to do less.



If this is a movement, than the rhetoric that we embrace shouldn't be "everyone just do their own thing". Because if that's what we're up for - then we WILL lose. I guarantee it. Organization is the only thing that will lead us to victory.

Organization is important. You don't need leaders to organize. You need like minded individuals. Why fight against anyone in this movement who is willing to run? It just doesn't make sense.




Are you aware that your second sentence in the above quote contradicts the first?


It's only supposed to sound that way.

Let me break it down.


I'm not in this to be on the winning side.

I will not compromise my values just to win.


I'm in this to win.

"Give me Liberty, or give me Death!"

[disorderlyvision]

Why don't you check the Rand and Schiff forums, and you will see that I am ALWAYS positive. have you stopped for 1 second to think that my reaction to Kokesh and his blind followers is due to something about Kokesh and his blind followers? amazing how I never bash Dr Paul, Rand, Schiff, the Judge, etc. only Kokesh. I wonder why that is? Maybe it's something to do with Kokesh himself?

For one thing, as a Vet myself, I don't appreciate him bragging about his "war exploits." real soldiers don't brag about what they have done. leave that for John McShame.


perhaps it is because you are overly virulent about Kokesh. I don't blindly follow anyone, but I do respect Kokesh, and you give him absolutely none. He has done a lot to promote the cause of liberty, and you act like he stole your girlfriend or something.

to be fair, I haven't read a ton of your posts in the other forums

[Bman]

For one thing, as a Vet myself, I don't appreciate him bragging about his "war exploits." real soldiers don't brag about what they have done. leave that for John McShame.

No but it sure seems that sometimes they use that fact when it works to their advantage.

And that's not a knock. You just did it, and if Adam does it he's earned it.

So have you.

[nobody's_hero]

"Blind following" was a popular neocon phrase used to discredit and ridicule Ron Paul supporters. I can't tell you how many times people used it on me, yet it was the message of liberty that I followed. They couldn't see that, because they viewed Ron as the threat as much as they viewed liberty as a threat.

If we're going to adopt the same tactics, well . . . —let's just not.

Looking on the bright side, this thread has generated 16 pages of debate, which means people are thinking about this issue. Don't forget that we have another year and a half before the 2010 elections. Taxes may be very, very unpopular by then.

[acptulsa]

Kokesh doesn't pay taxes? How did he avoid a spot in Obama's cabinet?

[KCIndy]

Not with a blowtorch but respect, yes? I quite agree with One and Three, but I cannot overemphasize how important it will be to lose this cavalier attitude about money. A cavalier attitude toward other people's money is no small part of how we landed in this soup.



Thanks for leaving the blowtorch at home! :) It was getting hot in that suit!!

Seriously, though. I believe I see where you're coming from in regard to the fund raising. I agree! Just like everyone else, I don't have a big surplus of funds when it comes to cash, AND there's plenty of other stuff I would rather spend it on in lieu of donating to a candidate. I get that entirely.

But regarding a cavalier attitude toward other people's money? I plead innocent!! The only way I can see that being accurate is if I had the power to take other people's money and use it for stuff *I* want. That's exactly what the government does to us via taxation, and it is exactly what we're trying to fight against!!

There is no way I can force anyone else to donate to a candidate I support. In turn, no matter how much a candidate is pushed in my face, no one can force me to donate to someone or something I don't support.

That's the way it should be.

I'll agree that if we in the liberty movement end up trying to support twenty or thirty candidates in the 2010 election, we'll be spread thin. Obviously, there's no way we'll be able to raise twenty million each like we did for Ron Paul.

But... how about five or ten?

Stop and think of what the liberty movement "base" looked like before Ron Paul announced his candidacy. It was, relatively speaking, pretty small. There were a few "sympathetic" organizations such as the Free State Project, Libertarian Party and a small handful of other libertarian-minded groups. Dr. Paul had to gather up a following practically from scratch.

Today, the movement is much bigger and much broader. More people are joining in all the time, and this is during what is arguably the "low point" of the election cycle, at least in terms of general public interest.

If we can get the various groups and organizations coordinated at least to the point where we're united via an "information umbrella" I think we'll see some pretty impressive fund raising. For instance, I donated to the recent Rand Paul "mini-bomb" but I only found out about it the day before the event, and then only by accident! So if there's one place I see a great need for improvement, it's in the area of inter-group communications. If we do that properly, I'm still of the opinion that we could round up several times the number of people who participated in the Ron Paul "moneybombs" of '07 and early '08.

So bottom line: If you ("you" generally speaking, I'm not pointing at anyone) like a particular candidate, don't offer support or contributions. Instead, go all out for the person you DO support. But why bother to knock the pins out from under a candidate you dislike? From a political viewpoint, these guys are all pretty much of the same frame of mind, and they're all on "our side."

Leastways, that's my take! :)

[nobody's_hero]

In the fire-service, we call them spotfires—Tiny fires started by small, yet very hot ashes and debris which cross the fire-line and create new problems "behind enemy lines", so to speak.

This is what happens when the "brushfires of liberty" are spread far and thin:

YouTube - Spotfires (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyB2dKZatcg)

Any questions?

[KCIndy]

In the fire-service, we call them spotfires—Tiny fires started by small, yet very hot ashes and debris which cross the fire-line and create new problems "behind enemy lines", so to speak.

This is what happens when the "brushfires of liberty" are spread far and thin:


Any questions?



Yeah. MeMeMe!! (raises hand and jumps up and down)

Who gets to determine which candidates are "worthy" of support and which ones are merely "spotfires" to be arbitrarily stomped out?

[nayjevin]

And that attitude is the reason why libertarianism amounts to nothing in American politics.

That's just absurd. The gist of all your comments is either

- 'winning the seat is the only goal of an election' and Ron Paul's election show's that's not even close to true

or

- 'we must embrace collectivism to succeed' which is self-explanatorily ludicrous.

[nobody's_hero]

Yeah. MeMeMe!! (raises hand and jumps up and down)

Who gets to determine which candidates are "worthy" of support and which ones are merely "spotfires" to be arbitrarily stomped out?

No one can determine that. That's why I said, we should support them all (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2147227&postcount=100). These candidates aren't in a competition with each other.

Grab your liberty torches folks. The education campaign has just begun.

They can't stomp us out if there are just too many. :D

[KCIndy]

No one can determine that. That's why I said, we should support them all (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2147227&postcount=100). These candidates aren't in a competition with each other.

Grab your liberty torches folks. The education campaign has just begun.

They can't stomp us out if there are just too many. :D

Ahh... I misunderstood. I thought you meant having too many candidates in play spread us out too thin to win.

We're in complete agreement then! :D

[cheapseats]

I think taxes are immoral, and it's about time it became popular to say so.



This is immaterial.



You're pretty quick to dismiss as "immaterial" anything that butts up against your strategery.

It is NOT immaterial. We are into the RAPACIOUS TAXATION phase of a crumbling empire. Taxation has everything to do with everything.

You wanna get a group of people pissed off and fired up, you talk to 'em about NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. I'm tellin' ya, it's much more of a crowd pleaser than SEND MORE MONEY.

Separately, and even more importantly, knowing where you stand on things and being willing to hold your ground -- that there is whatcha call PRINCIPLES. If we're not fighting for THEM then, for sure, people should quit forking over hard-earned cash, especially considering that another potential standard-bearer, PETER SCHIFF fer cryin' out loud, does suggest that the more dire of his predictions are yet to come.

Like selling 'em patio furniture with Katrina inbound.

[Nathan Hale]

Well yes but he can fight to do less.

Exactly.


Organization is important. You don't need leaders to organize. You need like minded individuals.

Yes, like-minded individuals organize, but in order to do anything they need leaders. At least, if they want to do anything effectively.


Why fight against anyone in this movement who is willing to run? It just doesn't make sense.

It makes total sense. We have limited resources among the members of this movement. We require our resources to be placed optimally in order for us to have any effect. Therefore it's understandable to criticize the choice of some people to use their resources poorly.


I will not compromise my values just to win.

"Give me Liberty, or give me Death!"

I disagree with your rhetorical jump from your prior post to what you say above, but that's not relevant to the heart of the matter, which is where I prefer to keep the conversation.

What you say above is the heart of the matter - you want to win, but only if you can do so poetically and without moral compromise. It's understandable. I just don't understand why you consider thinking strategically about politics to be a compromise of values.

[Nathan Hale]

That's just absurd.

Put on your listening ears, because I'm gonna drop some knowledge on you now.


The gist of all your comments is either

- 'winning the seat is the only goal of an election' and Ron Paul's election show's that's not even close to true

You're right. If that's the impression I gave I apologize. Presidential races are the exception because of the immensity of the scale of that race. I've (in this very thread I believe) praised Paul's campaign as a victory even though he didn't win. But, as I also said (in this thread, I believe), Paul was capable of getting past certain qualifying bottlenecks, and it was his ability to make it past those bottlenecks that got him in the debates and made his campaign a success. Kokesh can't make it past the bottlenecks. He couldn't get a win of Paul's variety even if that was a worthy cause for a Congressional race, which it isn't. Because the cost in money and manpower to run a Congressional campaign is prohibitive considering how much better such money and manpower could be spent getting the word out in an area the size of Kokesh's congressional district.



- 'we must embrace collectivism to succeed' which is self-explanatorily ludicrous.

You're thinking of collectivism as a political entity. As a political entity, collectivism IS ludicrous. But you know what? It works in business. It works in charitable organizations. And it works in political campaigns. And all three of those organizations are organizations to which you VOLUNTARILY subscribe, which eliminates the libertarian gripe with the concept.

[Nathan Hale]

You're pretty quick to dismiss as "immaterial" anything that butts up against your strategery.

I only use the term when somebody veers off what we're talking about. Unless you'd like to cite an example of me doing otherwise?


It is NOT immaterial. We are into the RAPACIOUS TAXATION phase of a crumbling empire. Taxation has everything to do with everything.

Perhaps not immaterial to the issue at large, but I was speaking specifically to the context of our conversation. If we're talking about sheep shearing, and you start talking about Guinness, I'd probably use the term. Now, it's not because I don't consider Guinness something worth talking about. It's because Guinness has nothing to do with the specific thread of our conversation.


You wanna get a group of people pissed off and fired up, you talk to 'em about NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. I'm tellin' ya, it's much more of a crowd pleaser than SEND MORE MONEY.

Yeah, it's great. But that's an appeal to change policy, it's not an appeal to disobey policy on a mass scale. I support no taxation without representation, and I dutifully pay my taxes. You'll likely find that's how most people in the crowd are.


Separately, and even more importantly, knowing where you stand on things and being willing to hold your ground -- that there is whatcha call PRINCIPLES. If we're not fighting for THEM then, for sure, people should quit forking over hard-earned cash, especially considering that another potential standard-bearer, PETER SCHIFF fer cryin' out loud, does suggest that the more dire of his predictions are yet to come.

We are fighting for principles. That doesn't mean we want our marijuana advocates to show up on stage with a bong, or our gun rights advocates showing up with 30 armed men and an artillery piece. In political elections, we fight for our principles by winning seats - that means thinking strategically at what best puts us in that seat. If people want compliance even if your desire is change, than that is what must happen in order to win the seat.


Like selling 'em patio furniture with Katrina inbound.

No, it's like trying to most effectively get into circles of power with Katrina inbound, rather than standing on a soapbox on a street corner with a sign that reads "the end is nigh".

[He Who Pawns]

The only thing Kokesh will achieve by going forward is wasting money and volunteers that might otherwise go to Rand, Schiff, etc, and getting himself a one-way ticket to the slammer.

You people should be ashamed for encouraging him. I hope you are also saving your money to donate to his legal fund when he's sitting in federal prison.

[cheapseats]

I only use the term when somebody veers off what we're talking about. Unless you'd like to cite an example of me doing otherwise?

Jeepers, that thread didn't just disappear, the whole FORUM disappeared. If someone will be so kind as to direct me to that Retaking Congress thread, the citation you request will be provided.




Perhaps not immaterial to the issue at large, but I was speaking specifically to the context of our conversation. If we're talking about sheep shearing, and you start talking about Guinness, I'd probably use the term. Now, it's not because I don't consider Guinness something worth talking about. It's because Guinness has nothing to do with the specific thread of our conversation.

The poster is talking about voting his conscience, and you are trying to dissuade him from that.

Donors take heed.




Yeah, it's great. But that's an appeal to change policy, it's not an appeal to disobey policy on a mass scale.

If Americans will not disobey on a grand scale the policies that they mean to overturn, the policies will stay in place. People are making money doing things the way "we" are doing them.





I support no taxation without representation, and I dutifully pay my taxes. You'll likely find that's how most people in the crowd are.

It is a principal problem of principle. Too many people are saying one thing, and doing another.




We are fighting for principles. That doesn't mean we want our marijuana advocates to show up on stage with a bong, or our gun rights advocates showing up with 30 armed men and an artillery piece. In political elections, we fight for our principles by winning seats - that means thinking strategically at what best puts us in that seat. If people want compliance even if your desire is change, than that is what must happen in order to win the seat.

I call that Same Old Same Old. You don't.

I'm not supporting Same Old Same Old. Period.

And I STRONGLY advise people whose financial circumstances are precarious to HOLD ONTO THEIR MONEY. They'll need it.




No, it's like trying to most effectively get into circles of power with Katrina inbound, rather than standing on a soapbox on a street corner with a sign that reads "the end is nigh".

Dude, by the time Katrina was inbound, the end WAS nigh. Have you BEEN to New Orleans post-Katrina? But yes, I can well imagine that with Katrina inbound, you would still be advocating strategery for getting into the circles of power that will better manage future crises.

[andrewh817]

Not paying taxes is IN if you're a government official........ so he'll be fine I think.

[nayjevin]

Put on your listening ears, because I'm gonna drop some knowledge on you now.

appreciate that.


Paul was capable of getting past certain qualifying bottlenecksI understand the 'threshold' . Paul was an exception to the rule -- but his candidacy has increased the odds of every 'libertarian-minded' aspiring politician to come after him -- in other words, the 'target market' has adapted as the U.S. public has shifted toward our ideals.

In addition, Kokesh will dominate campuses and new high school votes. All the cool kids will be doing it.

YouTube - I Think I Heard a Shot - ThisJuly4th.Com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV6QXt975TM)

Also Adam Kokesh has Ron Paul's personal endorsement. (http://www.kokeshforcongress.com/letters-support)


and it was his ability to make it past those bottlenecks that got him in the debates and made his campaign a success.absolutely agree


Kokesh can't make it past the bottlenecks.obviously, I disagree, and at the very least am confident that it's silly to claim that prior to a full effort to do so.

Adam's campaign gives every indication of being seriously run and capable of changing individual's minds. Look at the website http://www.kokeshforcongress.com and check out what's already done a year and a half before election. That is worth my some of my money and time.

This will be an impetus for him to dedicate himself to reaching audiences with a message I believe in -- so it's worth my time to spread around, along with

http://www.libertyrider.com and http://www.randpaul2010.com


He couldn't get a win of Paul's variety even if that was a worthy cause for a Congressional race, which it isn't.Sure he could, by talking to one person who ends up googling 'Iraq Veterans Against the War' or 'tax is theft'. His high probability of doing so on the campaign trail is the reason for my donation. -- he has a higher probability of doing so with my $10 than I do. There's your collectivist instruction -- send all money not used better than Adam Kokesh's life as congressional candidate to the campaign.


Because the cost in money and manpower to run a Congressional campaign is prohibitive considering how much better such money and manpower could be spent getting the word out in an area the size of Kokesh's congressional district.Yes it need be very focused once the necessary support is gained nationally from people like us.


You're thinking of collectivism as a political entity.No I define it here as the practice of acting upon or drawing conclusions from observations based on a group instead of on the individuals within that group.

In this case you are thinking of people together accomplishing things. This does not happen. Real world effect occurs as a result of the actions of autonomous individuals - groups don't do things, people do - individually, but simultaneously.

Individuals might follow 'plans' or 'rules' or 'guidelines' but they at all times have freedom to choose whether to continue a part of the process occuring. Each individual will implement his or her personal intentions within that framework.

The extent to which the individual is given the freedom to act with creativity is the extent to which a business or organization grows. See Google's campus for employees. All of us have seen rigid rules that do not work at our jobs and in school.


As a political entity, collectivism IS ludicrous. But you know what? It works in business. It works in charitable organizations. And it works in political campaigns. And all three of those organizations are organizations to which you VOLUNTARILY subscribe, which eliminates the libertarian gripe with the concept.The decentralized portion to which I will take part is to as an individual choose to visit his website and donate, and to email it to a bunch of people.

The degree to which the system in which my money is used resembles collectivism is not the primary factor in my donating -- but I do agree it is a worthy consideration.

Whatever 'system' or 'ideal' Adam's campaign uses -- I am fine with it. I'm willing to give them some resources to help the campaign - knowing the risk that it might not be perfectly spent.

I will also contact the campaign to let them know how I would spend it.

I want to buy him a horse without a saddle to ride into Albequoikie so he can speak at every student union and then go knock on some tee-pees.

What we need are people focused on spending more time on reaching people with good ideas and things to do to affect our real world to change for the better.

Adam is offering to do this all the time for the next year and a half, from a position of congressional candidate -- which has already gotten him press, including thousands of views here, on youtube, digg, and in new mexico media. But he needs money.

http://www.kokeshforcongress.com/
https://kokesh.netboots.net/contribute

If this were a chip-in 'help Adam Kokesh be a full time activist' I think it would be a worthy donation -- and I believe a congressional candidate is a superior position from which to execute more efficient activism.

[RickyJ]

You guys are fooling yourselves. Wake up to reality. It's over for Kokesh. And it should never have started. No one did the basic background checks needed -- just as I told all of you.



The guy stands up for what he believes in unlike many politicians who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. He gets my vote for whatever he wants to run for. I can't vote for him for the House seat, but I will support him. Kokesh should make a big issue out of this. IMO this will not only not hurt his campaign, it will help it. You know if he wins that he will vote to end the IRS for sure.

[Bman]

I just don't understand why you consider thinking strategically about politics to be a compromise of values.

Is there someone better than Adam running for that seat?

[LibertyEagle]

I am always appreciative of members who will ask the tough questions such as what He Who Pawns did earlier-- I think his follow-up question of "I wonder why Adam failed to mention this when I asked him those background questions?" was fair too.

That said, I likewise appreciate Adam taking the effort to post here to clarify the situation, I completely understand his position that nothing new is being revealed here since the information has already long been public.

Perhaps this can be chalked up to miscommunication- it happens, but now there is a solid understanding of the situation. Calling Adam a liar, as done here, is basically jumping to a conclusion that can easily be shown to be false, as done. Such flimsy accusations are problematic at best for our community and are a violation of the forum guidelines. Certainly Adam's choice to deal with the tax issue is well thought through and everyone here can follow the course of action of their choosing.

Please note, this sub-forum is in place to support an Adam Kokesh congressional run in 2010- any effort to derail that is at the least considered off-topic. The complete guidelines can be reviewed here:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22

That's not to say there isn't room for discussion from *supporters* of the campaign.

Regardless, let's please keep this thread, and sub-forum, productive.


To add my own $0.02 to the issue at hand. If you're trying to run a "Mr. Rogers" style campaign / candidate then such a position on taxation will likely be an issue. However, with a campaign of dissent this could be a proud feature of the campaign.

Whatever the case- it is true that all our efforts need to be valued as vehicles to both gain influence and to win the hearts and minds of others.

If anyone in the Kokesh subforum is NOT a Kokesh supporter, please feel free to avail yourself of other areas of the larger forums. Future attempts to derail the Kokesh congressional run will be considered off-topic and will be dealt with according to forum guidelines.

Thanks.

[RickyJ]

The only thing Kokesh will achieve by going forward is wasting money and volunteers that might otherwise go to Rand, Schiff, etc, and getting himself a one-way ticket to the slammer.

You people should be ashamed for encouraging him. I hope you are also saving your money to donate to his legal fund when he's sitting in federal prison.

Jail doesn't scare Kokesh. He has already been locked up for standing up for what he believes in. You seem to think Kokesh is naive and doesn't know what he is doing. You couldn't be more wrong. He knows the risks he is taking but goes forward anyway. Why? Because standing up for what is right is more important than cowering in ferar of the almighty government and doing whatever it is they tell you to do. Does he lose if he ends up in jail? NO! He still will have his self respect and that is something few have these days. No amount of money can buy that for you. He will not be the last tax protestor either. Many more will follow in his footsteps until the IRS is history.

[Objectivist]

I was wondering when I'd see someone with the balls to man up like the Founders did, they were in reality signing their death warrant when they signed the Declaration of Independence, doing so was an act of treason and they had everything to lose or win if they were successful.

I was having a conversation about this idea a couple days back and even in my own position I have much to lose but the problem I face is paying a government that intentionally does things that hurt me personally. How can you justify paying the government when they turn around and do things that undermine your ability to earn a legal living, while those around you are illegally earning one? Or using money taken at gun point from me and giving it to criminals.

6 million fewer taxpayers recently.

[nobody's_hero]

Is there someone better than Adam running for that seat?

$64,000 Question.

[He Who Pawns]

Oh, I see we're deleting questions now.

[LibertyEagle]

If anyone in the Kokesh subforum is NOT a Kokesh supporter, please feel free to avail yourself of other areas of the larger forums. Future attempts to derail the Kokesh congressional run will be considered off-topic and will be dealt with according to forum guidelines.

Thanks.

+ Off-topic posts - Posts that do not relate to the threads intent are subject to being deleted.

Source: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22

Note: Pawns, Bryan warned you first in post #63 of this thread. Here we are at post 181 and you're STILL trying to derail. It needs to stop, please.

[LibertyEagle]

The question has been asked. Adam has responded. This thread has run its course.

I'm closing the thread.