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American
09-21-2007, 12:06 PM
Over the past six years, Bush's enablers in Congress have been slowly eroding (http://uniorb.com/RCHECK/principles.htm) our Constitutional rights and liberties. But, until now, it was always somewhat masked in fear-inducing terror-related rhetoric.

Their latest stunt, however, is masked much more transparently.

Yesterday, the U.S. Senate passed a resolution (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003644339) condemning the organization MoveOn.org for criticizing (https://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html) General Petraeus for blindly and obediently propagating Bush's failed Iraq war strategy.

In other words, the U.S. Senate passed a resolution against freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and freedom of the press.

In other words, the U.S. Senate passed a resolution against the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

72 senators voted in favor of this resolution!

Freedom to dissent is one of the cornerstones of our democracy. In fact, true democracy cannot exist without it, because an informed electorate must have an understanding of the various sides of an issue.

President Theodore Roosevelt, a Republican, once said, "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

And that applies, by extension, to criticism of those who carry out the president's misguided policies.

But now 72 senators, representing both political parties, are telling us that we must shut up and not criticize Bush's Iraq policy or those who implement that policy, lest they condemn us too.

Do they not realize what they've done?

Or do they?

The latter would be even scarier.

See how your senators voted. (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00344)

ItsTime
09-21-2007, 12:13 PM
time and money well spent

zhughes315
09-21-2007, 12:19 PM
I am saddened that both MD Senators, who are both Democrats, voted in favor of this. I wrote them both voicing my displeasure.

derdy
09-21-2007, 12:20 PM
What a stupid piece of legislation. It does nothing other than reaffirm what we already know: most of the Congress are a bunch of Constitution hating sissies.

Also, we're not a democracy, we're supposed to be a Constitutional Republic, although we've definitely strayed far from that.

Dustancostine
09-21-2007, 12:38 PM
I just called my Senator (Cornyn), the one who wrote the bill. I told the guy manning the phone that I was also disgusted about what Moveon.org put out about the General, but that I am equally concerned about this amendment because 1) it is attempting to stifle freedom of speech. That no matter how bad the speech is it should be protected and 2) That it was a waste of time. I also said that if the Senators had a problem with it, they should get together and sign a petition or take out their own ad.

The guy on the phone said that I was the first person to call up with such a concern and that it was very interesting and not something they had considered. :eek:

lisajames96
09-21-2007, 12:39 PM
I am saddened that both MD Senators, who are both Democrats, voted in favor of this. I wrote them both voicing my displeasure.

Both our senators(both republican) voted yea also. I guess I should have expected that. I was holding out hope that they would see past the overstating, overreaction of the resolution. :(

MicroBalrog
09-21-2007, 12:44 PM
How does "condemning" them violate their freedom? It does nothing.

LibertyEagle
09-21-2007, 12:46 PM
I just called my Senator (Cornyn), the one who wrote the bill. I told the guy manning the phone that I was also disgusted about what Moveon.org put out about the General, but that I am equally concerned about this amendment because 1) it is attempting to stifle freedom of speech. That no matter how bad the speech is it should be protected and 2) That it was a waste of time. I also said that if the Senators had a problem with it, they should get together and sign a petition or take out their own ad.

The guy on the phone said that I was the first person to call up with such a concern and that it was very interesting and not something they had considered. :eek:

Heh. Well, he just got another call from me. :D

Dustancostine
09-21-2007, 12:47 PM
How does "condemning" them violate their freedom? It does nothing.

Why should our Government condemn speech?

If it was the individual senators or a petition that would be different. But passing an amendment, creates a law. The law now condemns the freedom of speech.

What is next?

ctb619
09-21-2007, 12:55 PM
Why should our Government condemn speech?

If it was the individual senators or a petition that would be different. But passing an amendment, creates a law. The law now condemns the freedom of speech.

What is next?

it's not a law, but it's still a stupid idea

Dustancostine
09-21-2007, 01:01 PM
How is it now a law? It may be a law that has no purpose, other than being a statement but it is still a law. It is an amendment to what looked like a spending bill.

ctb619
09-21-2007, 01:06 PM
law: a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority

I just don't see how a condemnation can be considered "law"

Dustancostine
09-21-2007, 01:27 PM
Ok you may be right, but where does the Senate get the authority to pass resolutions?

bbachtung
09-21-2007, 01:30 PM
Giuliani (scariest man running for President) would have voted for it (or something more drastic):



Giuliani said that MoveOn.org's ad criticizing Gen. Petreaus was out of bounds and hinted that the group should face some sort of sanction.

"They passed a line that we should not allow an American political organization to pass," he said. "We are at war right now, whether some people want to recognize it or not."

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/09/giuliani_claims_an_evolution_o.php

ctb619
09-21-2007, 01:38 PM
Ok you may be right, but where does the Senate get the authority to pass resolutions?

I agree...I think they exceeded the bounds of congressional authority

MicroBalrog
09-21-2007, 01:46 PM
Why should our Government condemn speech?



Eh, it is not restricting anybody's freedom to say what they want, nor even spending taxpayer's money.


It is not a violation of the Constitution.

Bradley in DC
09-21-2007, 01:50 PM
How does "condemning" them violate their freedom? It does nothing.

It "chills" speech when government acts in such a way, according to established precedent.

Dustancostine
09-21-2007, 01:51 PM
Eh, it is not restricting anybody's freedom to say what they want, nor even spending taxpayer's money.


It is not a violation of the Constitution.

I'm confused with what you are trying to say. This was an amendment to a spending bill. It took someone's time to draft and present the bill, someone who is getting paid by us.

fluoridatedbrainsoup
09-21-2007, 04:03 PM
Bush had an executive order just last month I think which allows the seizure of property, freezing of bank account, secret searches, etc. for anybody in the country hindering the surge through their speech or funds.
So this is very unsurprising to me.

1000-points-of-fright
09-21-2007, 04:17 PM
Other than it was pointless and a waste of time I don't think this is a big deal. They're not infringing on free speech. You can say whatever you want and I can call you a jerk for saying it. So congress just called moveon.org jerks. It's about as effective as a UN resolution of condemnation.

I get really pissed off when someone cries 1st amendment rights after I tell them to shut the hell up cuz they said something stupid. If you say something, be prepared to have people respond.

paulitics
09-21-2007, 04:35 PM
The problem is that it would need to be proven that Petraeus is not lying for their to be any merit to this. But the problem is, high power officials have most likely lied about. 1) The intentions of the Iraq War
2) Weapons of Mass destruction
3) Iranian threat
4) Torture
5) Iraqi casualties
6) Troop surge effectiveness

Move on, who I usually don't side with, apparrently feels strongly that Petraeus is lying. So if he is lying, and they have facts to back this up, then they should have every right to make this statement.....that he is betraying this country. It is esssential to hold these guys accountable. If we don''t, just because they are in a "respected" position, then we have abridged the right to criticise.

Move on has every right to make there statements. Using tax payer dollars to write a bill condemning it sets a horrible precedent. This is what they are in effect doing, setting a precedent. The next time, they will want to impose fines, or even worse.

aravoth
09-21-2007, 04:46 PM
I absolutly cannot stand Moveon.org. I thought the "betray us" ad was stupid. That being said. Congress has no right to condem free speech. No matter how distasteful I, or anyone else thinks it is. It's not like moveon infringed on someone elses rights.

I don't agree with a lot of whats said or done under the veil of free speech, or free expression. But I would still defend the right of anyone to say it. As all of us in this country should. Congress wasting time acting like the the thought police is a complete and total waste of tax dollars. I don't care if it only cost the american people 50 cents to keep the lights on in the idiots room who wrote this fascist peice of garbage. Our money should not ever help, or pay, in any way shape or form, for bullshit like this.

dseisner
09-21-2007, 04:58 PM
Interesting Nay Votes:

Clinton
Kerry
Feingold
Dodd


Something to think about...

noxagol
09-21-2007, 10:52 PM
The fact that they passed an official condemnation of something that someone said is appalling. In and of itself it is not bad, but it sets a dangerous precedent and puts the foot in the door for violating more of our rights.