What was God's logic?

[almantimes2]

First and foremost I don't want this to be hijacked turn into a 20 page Creationist-Evolutionist debate. Please stay on topic with "Gods logic" You can debate about that but please don't hijack into Evolution(Which I believe in but I'm not talking about that)


I just want to know why did god kill billions of people in the old testament because they were "Corrupt" Only to allow Noah to repopulate the planet without making any significant change to the human race. Wouldn't the human race fall to corruption anyway?

Also why does god decide to use force and death to meet his ends in the old testament. And then in the new testament he decides that the best course of action is to send Jesus?

You could simply say god realized he made a mistake. But Surely being a god of infinite energy he would be able to foresee this. Also not to mention the fact that there are different parts of the bible that state that god can give people visions into the future.

If god can see into the future wouldn't he realize he should of just sent Jesus in the first place and not had to kill all those people? You can debate the morality of this all you want. But you can't deny that in a way god may have changed his mind. Which also makes it hard for me to understand why some christian people say "God never changes".

Also I know people say this a lot but I have never gotten a very good answer.
Why does god simply do away with all the evil and suffering in the world instantly?

I don't mind Christians. I think they are very peaceful loving people. I just want an answer to these questions.

[asimplegirl]

I think God's "logic" makes perfect sense to HIM, ut to us it just seems so foreign..so hard to understand. We can't know all that he knows, and if we claim that he does know all, we would expect that he knew what he was doing.

Also, I think the reason God doesn't get rid of all evil is that we as humans ARE evil at the core, and only change that according to the path we follow. If we can do konger choose the path of good vs evil, then how would we know right? How would we learn lessons? How would we be good people?

And how would he reward us.

So..no, I didn't exactly answer the questions like I am sure you wanted..but I think that is the point. We aren't supposed to know, and even if we became close, we would never know because we cannot see all.

I hope whatever you are finding spiritually is exactly what you need. :)

[Kotin]

oh dear..

[MRoCkEd]

I suppose the authors decided to take the story in a new direction.

[zach]

Maybe it was a person or group of people who made God in their image, and they attributed everything that happened to the name. God didn't like this, so he killed this population because of it. God didn't like this person, so he killed this person because of it. God didn't like the behavior being done between individuals, so he killed them. But who can say with complete knowing that it was a God who did this? Why would you create something just to eliminate it later while fully knowing beforehand that you would end up doing it? Though I don't refute the existence of a God or Higher Being, I sometimes question the God of the Old Testament.

From a theistic perspective, I would think a God would allow evil and suffering to stay in the world in order for humanity to learn what it's like to be a human. Being human encompasses much pain. And a death to a human is just the death of a body, not the soul itself, even though it can be a saddening ritual. So the soul goes elsewhere in order to rest or learn more. Maybe someone you know dies, and their death would help you learn how to appreciate someone much better and to have you help console others with the same experience.

Maybe the God of the Bible wasn't a God after all. It could've been some writers with an ego problem.. who knows. The Bible could be made of stories (both fiction and non-fiction) in order to teach us different lessons regardless if they're of true history or not. It's a great book, but its usage of various owners has spawned much disdain from individuals or groups that it condemns based upon their behavior or status and of what God says.

Maybe the God of the entire universe is a completely different concept than the one in the Bible that we can't even begin to recognize or comprehend, and if one has faith in such a Being (or however you think about it), then the more power to you.

[nate895]

The reason why God decided to flood the Earth and eliminate people besides Noah, his wife, their sons, and their wives, is because the Sons of Heaven (Angels) took wives of the Daughters of Man, thereby creating a monster race among man that descended the rest of the World into debauchery. God could not let them to continue to roam the Earth, so he decided to flood the Earth and save what he could.

Jesus had been prophesied even before the flood, it was not a sudden change of course that God decided to send him. The Book that prophesied this is the Book of Enoch, which was lost to the Western Church before the Canon was determined, but was held by the Ethiopian Church.

The reason why all of the sin occurs, and Men and Angels are imperfect, is because He has made us in his image and granted us free will. Without our free will, the Lord would be without worshipers and only creatures that followed his natural laws would exist. Leaving us free to worship and live as we please gives the Lord satisfaction when we choose to worship him and Jesus Christ as opposed to other "Gods" or nothing at all.

[asimplegirl]

Have you ever heard all that evidence that daughters of man was a completely different race than daughter of god, or sons of god?

That is some crazy stuff!

(dropping it after this...but, sons of god were obviously referring to a race of peoples that were giants. Here is some info and proof of their existence

http://www.greatdreams.com/reptlan/giants.htm)

[nate895]

Have you ever heard all that evidence that daughters of man was a completely different race than daughter of god, or sons of god?

That is some crazy stuff!

There are many books of the Bible that were lost before the Canon was officially established; luckily, we have found some of them. Not the Gospel of Judas-type stuff, but books whose existences are inferred in other books of the Bible.

[sailor]

I just want to know why did god kill billions of people in the old testament because they were "Corrupt" Only to allow Noah to repopulate the planet without making any significant change to the human race. Wouldn't the human race fall to corruption anyway?

Also why does god decide to use force and death to meet his ends in the old testament. And then in the new testament he decides that the best course of action is to send Jesus?

You could simply say god realized he made a mistake. But Surely being a god of infinite energy he would be able to foresee this. Also not to mention the fact that there are different parts of the bible that state that god can give people visions into the future.

If god can see into the future wouldn't he realize he should of just sent Jesus in the first place and not had to kill all those people? You can debate the morality of this all you want. But you can't deny that in a way god may have changed his mind. Which also makes it hard for me to understand why some christian people say "God never changes".

Well thats the upside of being a non-fundamentalist. You can just pretend that the Old Testament doesn`t exist. Some eyebrow raising shit in there.



Also I know people say this a lot but I have never gotten a very good answer.
Why does god simply do away with all the evil and suffering in the world instantly?

Because that can not be done without taking away our free will which would be even worse. Doing a good deed is only remarkable when you are free not to do it. There is nothing remarkable about a world without sin, where that is achived through makin everyone into a drone.

[almantimes2]

Wouldn't your free will be taken away in heaven?
If sin ends there?

[GunnyFreedom]

Sub for later when I'm on a keyboard instead of a phone.

[almantimes2]

YouTube - But that's old testament! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTYNKpJBY54)

[Theocrat]

First and foremost I don't want this to be hijacked turn into a 20 page Creationist-Evolutionist debate. Please stay on topic with "Gods logic" You can debate about that but please don't hijack into Evolution(Which I believe in but I'm not talking about that)

I just want to know why did god kill billions of people in the old testament because they were "Corrupt" Only to allow Noah to repopulate the planet without making any significant change to the human race. Wouldn't the human race fall to corruption anyway?

The simple answer to your question of why God killed lots of people in the Old Testament is that God hates sin and judges it with the penalty of death. It began in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned against God by eating of the tree He forbade them from eating (Genesis 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%202;&version=9;)). God told them that the penalty for disobeying His command would be death, and thus, death entered into the world when they both disobeyed God's word (Romans 5:12, 17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12,%2017;&version=9;)).

Yet, even while sin entered into the world, God promised that He would send a Redeemer who would save mankind from the ultimate penalty of its sins and enjoy fellowship with Him in the way which He always intended. That Redeemer was Jesus Christ, and in Christ, we have new life and are new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse); Galatians 6:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=6&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)). I don't have the time to explain this, but in many ways Noah was a type of Christ, and many of his experiences recorded in Scripture relate to this redeeming theme in the Bible which points to Christ.

God chose a nation unto Himself which He would give redemption to and set His love upon, and that was the Israelites, the descendants of Abraham who received the promise that his seed would receive a land for an inheritance. Because other nations were pagan and given to idolatry, God in His sovereign will decided to judge those nations for their sins. He judged those nations by sending His people into their lands and killing them as an act of justice against the sin which cried out from the land of the pagan nations. However, God also judged His own people by death when they turned from Him and worshiped idols. He did this by sending them into captivity and sometimes killing those who worshiped idols. God does this to show us examples of His attitude towards sin.


Also why does god decide to use force and death to meet his ends in the old testament. And then in the new testament he decides that the best course of action is to send Jesus?

You could simply say god realized he made a mistake. But Surely being a god of infinite energy he would be able to foresee this. Also not to mention the fact that there are different parts of the bible that state that god can give people visions into the future.

If god can see into the future wouldn't he realize he should of just sent Jesus in the first place and not had to kill all those people? You can debate the morality of this all you want. But you can't deny that in a way god may have changed his mind. Which also makes it hard for me to understand why some christian people say "God never changes".

Actually, God does not change in His character and nature. Just as He judges individuals and societies for their sins in the Old Testament, He does that same thing in the New Testament. Also, God granted forgiveness in the Old Testament for the sins of His people through the sacrificial laws, and He grants the same forgiveness of sins in the New Testament through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Who fulfilled the purpose of those sacrificial laws in His own blood).

God doesn't make mistakes, and though from our finite understanding as humans it may seem like God doesn't know what He's doing, we have to realize that His ways are higher than ours and His purposes are beyond our understanding (Isaiah 55:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=55&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)). God knew that He would send His Redeemer into the world to atone finally for the sins of His people (Genesis 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:15;&version=9;)). Those saints in the Old Testament looked forward to this Redeemer by faith, and we in the New Testament era look back to the Redeemer Christ by faith as the propitiation for our sins. The prophecies of the Old Testament pointed to Christ, and the prophets spoke by the Spirit of God to testify those things. So, God never changes, as we're told in Malachi 3:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=46&chapter=3&verse=6&version=9&context=verse).


Also I know people say this a lot but I have never gotten a very good answer.
Why does god simply do away with all the evil and suffering in the world instantly?

I don't mind Christians. I think they are very peaceful loving people. I just want an answer to these questions.

God has a good purpose for the evil and suffering He ordains in this world, and we're told in Romans 8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208;&version=9;) that all things will work out for good to those who love Him. This will be a continual mystery to nonbelievers, but Christians know that suffering increases our faith in God (Romans 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&version=9&context=chapter)). Jesus Christ Himself suffered all things for our atonement and covenant fellowship to God the Father by the Spirit. Because He did, He inherited all things unto Himself. We as Christians suffer and inherit all things in Christ, as well. Christ is the King and Lord of all things in Heaven and on earth, and He now rules and reigns on High bringing all enemies under His subjection. The evil and suffering in this world is necessary to purify those in faith to God, while it prunes those who are not in faith because they will not submit to God in the forgiveness of their sins.

[nate895]

Wouldn't your free will be taken away in heaven?
If sin ends there?

God does not tell us about heaven. All we know is that Hell is bad and Heaven is, well, Heaven.

[sailor]

YouTube - But that's old testament! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTYNKpJBY54)

Thats a very snarky video. If that is your stance then we dont have much to talk about.

[almantimes2]

The simple answer to your question of why God killed lots of people in the Old Testament is that God hates sin and judges it with the penalty of death. It began in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned against God by eating of the tree He forbade them from eating (Genesis 2). God told them that the penalty for disobeying His command would be death, and thus, death entered into the world when they both disobeyed God's word (Romans 5:12, 17).

Yet, even while sin entered into the world, God promised that He would send a Redeemer who would save mankind from the ultimate penalty of its sins and enjoy fellowship with Him in the way which He always intended. That Redeemer was Jesus Christ, and in Christ, we have new life and are new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15). I don't have the time to explain this, but in many ways Noah was a type of Christ, and many of his experiences recorded in Scripture relate to this redeeming theme in the Bible which points to Christ.

God chose a nation unto Himself which He would give redemption to and set His love upon, and that was the Israelites, the descendants of Abraham who received the promise that his seed would receive a land for an inheritance. Because other nations were pagan and given to idolatry, God in His sovereign will decided to judge those nations for their sins. He judged those nations by sending His people into their lands and killing them as an act of justice against the sin which cried out from the land of the pagan nations. However, God also judged His own people by death when they turned from Him and worshiped idols. He did this by sending them into captivity and sometimes killing those who worshiped idols. God does this to show us examples of His attitude towards sin.




I don't recall god killing in the new testament. That could be true but it is besides the matter.
Let me restart.

What are god's goals?
naturally man is going to die out and be consumed by "Sin" at a greater level as time passes by.

So.
Do you think that the correct way of dealing with these actions is to.
Destroy majority of men. And have the population recuperate and then repeat the process again.
As you do remain consistent that god will not change his character then there is no doubt this will happen.

You may however believe in the end times and god will finish off man an everyone will go to heaven.
You have said that we do not know what heaven will be like.
Well 2 things would happen. God will void free will to keep heaven pure. OR.
God will let free will run free in heaven and the whole thing would be pointless.
Now Im sure your against god voiding free will but he would have to if the saga were to end.

What advantage does a non deist god present?
Doesn't intervening in human affairs whom were given free will defeat the purpose?
I think this all shows that nothing. Not even a god can create a utopia without voiding free will(Not saying that's a good thing)

[almantimes2]

Thats a very snarky video. If that is your stance then we dont have much to talk about.

I don't completely agree with the guy. But it does strive some good points.

[nate895]

God's goals?

Worshipers, I am sure it is boring to be without accompaniment when you are the Master of the Universe. God wants people to worship him and he wants others to serve him in Heaven and on the Earth, and whatever other planets he might have intelligent people worshiping him on.

[Theocrat]

I don't recall god killing in the new testament. That could be true but it is besides the matter.
Let me restart.

What are god's goals?
naturally man is going to die out and be consumed by "Sin" at a greater level as time passes by.

So.
Do you think that the correct way of dealing with these actions is to.
Destroy majority of men. And have the population recuperate and then repeat the process again.
As you do remain consistent that god will not change his character then there is no doubt this will happen.

You may however believe in the end times and god will finish off man an everyone will go to heaven.
You have said that we do not know what heaven will be like.
Well 2 things would happen. God will void free will to keep heaven pure. OR.
God will let free will run free in heaven and the whole thing would be pointless.
Now Im sure your against god voiding free will but he would have to if the saga were to end.

What advantage does a non deist god present?
Doesn't intervening in human affairs whom were given free will defeat the purpose?
I think this all shows that nothing. Not even a god can create a utopia without voiding free will(Not saying that's a good thing)

I would like to commend to you an excellent summary of the Christian faith which deals with many of the issues you bring up. I just don't have time to expound on all the issues you've brought up right now, so without further ado, here is the Westminster Confession of Faith (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/).

[almantimes2]

God's goals?

Worshipers, I am sure it is boring to be without accompaniment when you are the Master of the Universe. God wants people to worship him and he wants others to serve him in Heaven and on the Earth, and whatever other planets he might have intelligent people worshiping him on.

Nothing wrong with that.

I take issue with the fact that if you do not concede with these beliefs you are sent to hell. And throughout history has killed people because since he created man. He is somehow entitled to destroy it.

This is why I ended my christian faith a few years ago.

I will admit however. Religion does have a positive impact on younger kids and is a great way for parent's to get them to behave better.

I will even go as far to say that if Religion did indeed completely dissapear from the earth we would lose are morality.
And I am an atheist saying this.
I do know what is right and what is wrong but I know the rest of the population would not take it so kindly. So Im glad religion exists. At least however create one that makes some degree of sense.

[sedele]

The reason why God decided to flood the Earth and eliminate people besides Noah, his wife, their sons, and their wives, is because the Sons of Heaven (Angels) took wives of the Daughters of Man, thereby creating a monster race among man that descended the rest of the World into debauchery. God could not let them to continue to roam the Earth, so he decided to flood the Earth and save what he could.

Jesus had been prophesied even before the flood, it was not a sudden change of course that God decided to send him. The Book that prophesied this is the Book of Enoch, which was lost to the Western Church before the Canon was determined, but was held by the Ethiopian Church.

The reason why all of the sin occurs, and Men and Angels are imperfect, is because He has made us in his image and granted us free will. Without our free will, the Lord would be without worshipers and only creatures that followed his natural laws would exist. Leaving us free to worship and live as we please gives the Lord satisfaction when we choose to worship him and Jesus Christ as opposed to other "Gods" or nothing at all.

This. Jesus was prophesied, however, way back in Genesis though. Look at Genesis 3:15 and 49:10.

[almantimes2]

I would like to commend to you an excellent summary of the Christian faith which deals with many of the issues you bring up. I just don't have time to expound on all the issues you've brought up right now, so without further ado, here is the Westminster Confession of Faith (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/).

Thank You.

I will try to find the time to read this.

I think I got a good consensus on your responses.
Im not going to continue to debate here. I was just curious to see what your arguments would be.

[nate895]

Nothing wrong with that.

I take issue with the fact that if you do not concede with these beliefs you are sent to hell. And throughout history has killed people because since he created man. He is somehow entitled to destroy it.

This is why I ended my christian faith a few years ago.

I will admit however. Religion does have a positive impact on younger kids and is a great way for parent's to get them to behave better.

I will even go as far to say that if Religion did indeed completely dissapear from the earth we would lose are morality.
And I am an atheist saying this.
I do know what is right and what is wrong but I know the rest of the population would not take it so kindly. So Im glad religion exists. At least however create one that makes some degree of sense.

You are not necessarily sent to Hell if you don't believe, you are sent to Hell if you are witnessed to and reject the Lord's forgiveness. People who live in Tibet who will never hear the word of God, but live decent lives nonetheless, aren't going to Hell. They shall be able to accept the Lord's forgiveness should they choose that option in the afterlife.

As far as Religion's contributions to society, they have contributed much. Almost all early art and writing is displayed for religious or mythological purposes. Christianity even gave the World modern science, whose establishment rejects God (not the science itself). It is difficult to see how the World would have developed without religious ideas.

[asimplegirl]

You are not necessarily sent to Hell if you don't believe, you are sent to Hell if you are witnessed to and reject the Lord's forgiveness. People who live in Tibet who will never hear the word of God, but live decent lives nonetheless, aren't going to Hell. They shall be able to accept the Lord's forgiveness should they choose that option in the afterlife.




I tend to believe such. :)

[nate895]

Thank You.

I will try to find the time to read this.

I think I got a good consensus on your responses.
Im not going to continue to debate here. I was just curious to see what your arguments would be.

Note that the site is Calvinist, which is the belief that God has predestined people for Heaven or Hell. The alternative Protestant view is Arminianism, where we are all free to accept the Gift of Salvation.

[sedele]

You are not necessarily sent to Hell if you don't believe, you are sent to Hell if you are witnessed to and reject the Lord's forgiveness. People who live in Tibet who will never hear the word of God, but live decent lives nonetheless, aren't going to Hell. They shall be able to accept the Lord's forgiveness should they choose that option in the afterlife.

Don't mean to hijack this thread but, why did Jesus command us to preach the Gospel to the 4 corners of the earth if everyone who lives a "decent life" is already saved no matter what false god they worship?

[asimplegirl]

He didn't say that, Sedele. He said that if they were uninformed about him and still led a good life they could go to heaven in the after life. Not no matter what you do, you go to heaven.

[nate895]

Don't mean to hijack this thread but, why did Jesus command us to preach the Gospel to the 4 corners of the earth if everyone who lives a "decent life" is already saved no matter what false god they worship?

The Lord still is a jealous God who wants worshipers. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit will finally come to occupy the soul of someone who was previously ignorant of the Lord.

[sedele]

He didn't say that, Sedele. He said that if they were uninformed about him and still led a good life they could go to heaven in the after life. Not no matter what you do, you go to heaven.

I did hear him and quote him correctly when he said..."as long as they lived a decent life"...

Edit:

I'm sorry. He did add a part in there about..."They shall be able to accept the Lord's forgiveness should they choose that option in the afterlife."

Now, I've only been a christian for about 7 years and have never read about this doctrine in the Word of God. Can you please post some scriptures validating this claim as well, Nate?

We could start a new thread if you would like so we can keep the thread on topic to the OP.

[sedele]

The Lord still is a jealous God who wants worshipers. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit will finally come to occupy the soul of someone who was previously ignorant of the Lord.

Can you please post some scriptures validating this doctrine, as the bible is the ultimate source of authority on all matters of Salvation?

[nate895]

Can you please post some scriptures validating this doctrine, as the bible is the ultimate source of authority on all matters of Salvation?

There is none to specifically back it, but all battles are between sinners and Good, so it stands to reason that someone who is ignorant of the Lord but does not live a life of sin can still be saved.

[sedele]

There is none to specifically back it, but all battles are between sinners and Good, so it stands to reason that someone who is ignorant of the Lord but does not live a life of sin can still be saved.

Matt 19:16,17

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

[american.swan]

I can't read the whole thread at this time but I can explain my views I think fairly well. (This all comes from the Bible and just makes sense in that context so the 66 books of the Bible just make sense to me.)

1. Satan rebelled in Heaven wanting to be more a part of creation and such which was Jesus' job.

2. God couldn't just kill Satan on the spot. Then all the universe, there are other planets we'll never find, would just server God by force not by love. No one wants to serve a dictator. Therefore God had to let history take it's course.

3. Adam and Eve sinned at the tree. Now there was actually one of these trees on all the planets God had created, but they didn't sin. Adam and Eve did. Satan didn't fool Eve. Eve fooled herself. Eve told the snake that she couldn't touch the fruit. God never said that. Maybe Adam told her not to touch it or she came up with that on her own. Either way by touching the fruit she fell into the trap that caused her to eat it.

4. Adam having dominion should have been willing to die for Eve. God / Christ / Holy Spirit would have accepted his sacrifice more than likely for her sins. He didn't. So by sinning Satan took over the minds of men to a large degree.

5. Christ came to earth and explained salvation to Adam and Eve and killed the lamb for their clothing. Very symbolic. Gave them the salvation was possible otherwise they wouldn't have had children.

6. Now imagine you're born before the flood and you see the garden of eden you can't enter. the majority of the people were pissed off. They purposefully did everything they could evil in rebellion. Very few held to the salvation God had promised. The sanctuary service the Jews had pointed to salvation and love.

7. The Jews didn't get it. They put tradition and mess before God and love. They screwed up. Jesus came to not abolish anything except the sanctuary service which by the way hasn't been performed since Jesus died.

8. Jesus' death of flesh isn't really important. What we have to remember is that Jesus willed his divinity to null. On Sunday morning the Lord "called" that divinity to reassert itself. Because the sacrifice had been accepted. When Christ died, he didn't know if God was going to accept the sacrifice or not.

9. Now humans can partake of God's divinity. God has created a mechanism where we can change our characters to the character of Christ. God's ten commandments and such are just a representation of God's character. We must rise to the level of the world's that never fell.

10. Now our human will is a major factor here. The people who go to heaven will be those who have developed that character of God by choice. Just saying I'm saved doesn't cut it.

11. Jesus death wasn't to nullify the law. It was to show how serious sin really is.

That all make sense to me.

[nate895]

Matt 19:16,17

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

It is also possible that those who are ignorant of the Lord are going to be saved on the day of judgment. Those who are condemned in Hell now could be saved if they accept the forgiveness in Jesus before His Second Coming.

[Working Poor]

The law is: the wages of sin is death. God loves His creation he wanted to give them a chance at life. Jesus died on the cross for us so we won't have to.

Some understand this others don't. I don't know why it must have something to do with the spirit or the heart of the person hearing it.

To some hearing the law that the wages of sin is death sounds like poppy cock and to others it sounds like truth.

Why did God make this law of the wages of sin is death in the first place? Maybe he wanted to see who would try not to break this law maybe he wanted man to ask that this law be changed. Everyone knows that they cannot live a sinless life according to what the laws of the old testament call sin.

We do have free will and lots of choices. I want to follow Jesus you may not want to. You do not have to.

There is no logic that we know to it. It is a matter of the heart and spirit. I suppose God can do what He wants with His creation. Maybe you don't believe you are Gods creation but there will be people who believe that you are one of His creatures and hopefully you will be treated as such.

God killed because of sin.

I don't think that because God killed that it is okay for me to decide who ought to live or die or to take life. I don't think any man has the right to take another's life. This is my thinking. I believe I want to seek God's mercy and not His wrath.

[sedele]

It is also possible that those who are ignorant of the Lord are going to be saved on the day of judgment. Those who are condemned in Hell now could be saved if they accept the forgiveness in Jesus before His Second Coming.

I understand where you are coming from as this topic is something that I've wrestled with as well. As far as I know, however, there is no scriptural basis for this doctrine and I am convinced it is a quite dangerous view.

Just so we keep this thread on topic, I will start a thread on this in OT shortly.

[Original_Intent]

I'll give you my own beliefs. They are rooted in the Mormon faith, but a lot of it is my own interpretation, not church doctrine. But what I will give you will be a lot closer to church doctrine than most of the silly videos you see on Youtube.

First, God did not create man from nothing. There are things called "intelligences" that exist in the eternities, intelligences are co-eternal with God and can neither be created nor destroyed. Intelligences have free will or agency.

Through some process that we do not understand, God can create spirit children from these intelligences. I believe that also to become spirit children of God is also a choice made freely by the intelligences. As spirit children of God we were able to learn things and develop. Eventually all of God's spirit children had grown as much as possible in that state. No one would sin, but there was still choice, and in teh same way that each intelligence was unique, we were unique individuals with different strengths and weakness.

The first spirit child that God created was Jehovah, and He was in the exact likeness of God the Father not just in appearance but in all his attributes.

When we had all progressed as far as possible in this pre-mortal existence, God the Father presented the Plan of Salvation. An earth would be created, Man would come and of necessity Fall. Through the Fall, man would come to know Good and Evil. Because all men would succumb to evil at some point in their life, God proposed that Jesus Christ, who was Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence, would come to earth and atone for all sin. This was necessary because no unclean thing could return to the presence of God. By both living a sin free life and also willingly laying that life down, this would cleanse from sin all who believed in Him. He paid the price for ALL sin, but the Atonement would only be effective on those who believed in Him.

Then another spirt child of God stepped forward. He proposed an alternate plan. Although we do not know the details of this plan we do know three things: he sought to destroy the agency of man, he promised under his plan that ALL would be redeemed, and because he would do this he said that the Father should give him, Lucifer, His (God's) glory.

As far as how Lucifer would destroy the agency of man, there are two schools of thought. One is that he would rule by tyranical force and no one would be ALLOWED to sin. The other school of thought is that everyone could do as they pleased, and he would redeem everyone. It seem like the latter plan is most likely, as everyone would be able to have a mortal existence, but everyone would get to come back. I can imagine that Lucifer, also known as Satan, or The Accuser, may have painted the Plan of Salvation as "mean-spirited" because not all spirits would be able to return to God's presence.

Using their agency, 1/3 of all the spirit children supported Lucifer's plan. I am sure it was very appealing and well presented, just as many socialist programs are presented today to "save everyone" and anyone that opposes them is accused of selfishness or being mean spirited.

Lucifer and his followers were cast out from God's presence.

The earth was created, as was man and woman. They fell thru disobedience, however the Fall was a necessary part of the Plan of Salvation. Nevertheless, it occurred due to disobedience, brought death to the world and also cast Adam and Eve out from God's presence.

I agree with what has been said about the angels coming and creating the Nephilim as has been spoken of, but that is not church doctrine. I do not believe this or anything caught God by surprise. I do not know why God chose the flood rather than to send Jesus at that time, other than it was not the proper time according to the Plan of Salvation. However, although we might think of him wiping out most of the population of the earth as harsh, or something we can not comprehend, my feeling is that the flood was a consequence of mankind's terrible choices as a whole, and anyone that had believed Noah, God's prophet at the time, could have been saved. Also, as mankind was so wicked at that time, being wiped out likely saved them all from commiting even more sin and bringing about further punishment. So....mercy killing? I say that somewhat tongue in cheek but somewhat believe it. Final answer is that I do not presume to scan God, thank you TW.

Why doesn't God just wipe out evil? Because that would be depriving us of our agency, which God will not do. The suffering that exists in the world is in large part due to the choices that fallen man has made, and God will not shelter us from the results of our poor decisions. The commandments that He has given are a guide that if followed will lead us to both a happy life and an eternity that we cannot comprehend. Inasmuch as we don't follow those commandments, there is suffering. In this world, the bad consequences of sing often affect the less sinful and even the innocent, by which I mean children.

We believe that those who do not get the opportunity to accept Christ in this life, get the opportunity to be taught and acccept Him after death. Some refer to this as Limbo or Purgatory, we refer to it as Spirit Prison. Those who have accepted Christ go to Paradise after death.

At the End of Time all Spirits will be called before God to be judged both by their life and what they did after this life in either Paradise or Spirit Prison. The fact that we can make some progress or make amends for wrongs after life is no reason to postpone repentance, in fact those who do so will likely not have the opportunity. Again, this post mortal time before final judgement is more to provide opportunities for those who missed them completely in this life. It is not likely that those who reject Christ in this life get a second chance to do so, although again, I do not presume to scan God and I am sure much will be based on our individual and unique circumstances.

I believe that our punishment for any sin will be the absolute minimum that will meet the demands of Justice, and that our blessings that we receive will be the absolute maximum that Mercy can provide.

There have been volumes and volumes written on this topic, there is my Reader's Digest version. again, much of this is not "doctrine" but my own personal understanding, and certainly has errors.

[nate895]

Don't listen to Mormons on Christian Doctrine, EVER. Their doctrine is very much different from mainstream Christianity. I respect them, and love them, but their faith is a great heresy, the greatest in Church History. As I have stated in other threads, I am friends with Mormons, and my potential new girlfriend is a Mormon, but that does not mean I believe they are mainstream. In fact, I pray for the family of the girl I like every night, and have prayed on it since I have been good friends with her brother. They are good people, just misguided as to their beliefs.

[pacelli]

Have you ever heard all that evidence that daughters of man was a completely different race than daughter of god, or sons of god?

That is some crazy stuff!

(dropping it after this...but, sons of god were obviously referring to a race of peoples that were giants. Here is some info and proof of their existence

http://www.greatdreams.com/reptlan/giants.htm)

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction, isn't it?

http://www.greatdreams.com/reptlan/joegiant2.jpg

[pacelli]

I take issue with the fact that if you do not concede with these beliefs you are sent to hell.

What does the bible actually say about hell?

[pacelli]

It is also possible that those who are ignorant of the Lord are going to be saved on the day of judgment. Those who are condemned in Hell now could be saved if they accept the forgiveness in Jesus before His Second Coming.

What does the bible tell us about who will be coming up in the first resurrection, the second resurrection, and the third resurrection?

[american.swan]

Death

I believe evil is just too much when speaking of mass killings. Their hearts are so hard to the calling of the Holy Spirit that there's literally no hope for them. They have on their own will followed a life that is seriously evil continually. Before the flood it was this way. Culture and peer pressure and such just help Satan's plans. God has had enough and allows their destruction. God does this to governments also. One King in the Bible God raised up to power and when he became arrogant God had his nation taken from him. We actually shouldn't study history as a collection of individual acts...we should study how God has led in the rise and fall of nations.

I generally believe so called Christians are no where near what God wants of us. They are basically hypocrites, saying one thing and doing another. I don't call myself a Christian, I am nothing like Christ and I don't expect anyone here to assume my life is as Christ would want it. I do my best to fight doubt and disbelief. Eve didn't follow "Thus saith the Lord..." and we get into trouble when we don't either.

Sin is all around us. Generally we walk into sin like walking into a fog bank. We leave God's protection for some hogwash cultural joy Satan has set up.

And yes, I'm a libertarian. It isn't the government's job to legislate morality. No government is going to bring about some spiritual perfect society.



I can't read the whole thread at this time but I can explain my views I think fairly well. (This all comes from the Bible and just makes sense in that context so the 66 books of the Bible just make sense to me.)

1. Satan rebelled in Heaven wanting to be more a part of creation and such which was Jesus' job.

2. God couldn't just kill Satan on the spot. Then all the universe, there are other planets we'll never find, would just server God by force not by love. No one wants to serve a dictator. Therefore God had to let history take it's course.

3. Adam and Eve sinned at the tree. Now there was actually one of these trees on all the planets God had created, but they didn't sin. Adam and Eve did. Satan didn't fool Eve. Eve fooled herself. Eve told the snake that she couldn't touch the fruit. God never said that. Maybe Adam told her not to touch it or she came up with that on her own. Either way by touching the fruit she fell into the trap that caused her to eat it.

4. Adam having dominion should have been willing to die for Eve. God / Christ / Holy Spirit would have accepted his sacrifice more than likely for her sins. He didn't. So by sinning Satan took over the minds of men to a large degree.

5. Christ came to earth and explained salvation to Adam and Eve and killed the lamb for their clothing. Very symbolic. Gave them the salvation was possible otherwise they wouldn't have had children.

6. Now imagine you're born before the flood and you see the garden of eden you can't enter. the majority of the people were pissed off. They purposefully did everything they could evil in rebellion. Very few held to the salvation God had promised. The sanctuary service the Jews had pointed to salvation and love.

7. The Jews didn't get it. They put tradition and mess before God and love. They screwed up. Jesus came to not abolish anything except the sanctuary service which by the way hasn't been performed since Jesus died.

8. Jesus' death of flesh isn't really important. What we have to remember is that Jesus willed his divinity to null. On Sunday morning the Lord "called" that divinity to reassert itself. Because the sacrifice had been accepted. When Christ died, he didn't know if God was going to accept the sacrifice or not.

9. Now humans can partake of God's divinity. God has created a mechanism where we can change our characters to the character of Christ. God's ten commandments and such are just a representation of God's character. We must rise to the level of the world's that never fell.

10. Now our human will is a major factor here. The people who go to heaven will be those who have developed that character of God by choice. Just saying I'm saved doesn't cut it.

11. Jesus death wasn't to nullify the law. It was to show how serious sin really is.

That all make sense to me.

[american.swan]

What does the bible actually say about hell?

Hell doesn't exists. The Bible is mistranslated to "burn forever" when in actuality it should be "burn up completely" Sodom and Gamorrah(sp??) isn't still burning today are they? Of course not. They were completely consumed.

Hell is just eternal sleep. Consumed completely. No pain forever. Just gone.

[american.swan]

What does the bible tell us about who will be coming up in the first resurrection, the second resurrection, and the third resurrection?

I'm not sure what resurrections you're talking about.

There are only two resurrections I know of. The first will be when Christ comes again and the second will be after the 1000 years in heaven.

The first resurrection is clear. the faithful who are sleeping now rise up with the living faithful. Satan and those who refuse to go to heaven will stay and go to sleep(die). Now the evil angels and Satan will spend 1000 years thinking(awake)

After the thousand years, the Holy City will be relocated to Earth and at this time the dead will rise again. This time to attack the city I believe. They will fail. And the wicked and Satan will come to their ultimate end here and they will all acknowledge that Christ was in fact King and will go to sleep the final time.

Christ and the Father then recreate earth in 7 days.

[Original_Intent]

Don't listen to Mormons on Christian Doctrine, EVER. Their doctrine is very much different from mainstream Christianity. I respect them, and love them, but their faith is a great heresy, the greatest in Church History. As I have stated in other threads, I am friends with Mormons, and my potential new girlfriend is a Mormon, but that does not mean I believe they are mainstream. In fact, I pray for the family of the girl I like every night, and have prayed on it since I have been good friends with her brother. They are good people, just misguided as to their beliefs.

I don't believe that being mainsteam is important or even desirable. I believe Jesus had some differences with the mainstream religious views of his society also.

But I didn't post this to get in a religious debate. I posted my beliefs because the OP asked for explanations which I think my beliefs provide. And as I said, although my beliefs are BASED on Mormon doctrine, much of what I believe is simply my understanding, not Church doctrine.

[american.swan]

A lot of people are misguided. Bless their hearts. May they seek the Lord and the Holy Spirit give them the light they need. I'm misguided, Lord help me see the truth and not only that, but LIVE the TRUTH.

[nate895]

I don't believe that being mainsteam is important or even desirable. I believe Jesus had some differences with the mainstream religious views of his society also.

But I didn't post this to get in a religious debate. I posted my beliefs because the OP asked for explanations which I think my beliefs provide. And as I said, although my beliefs are BASED on Mormon doctrine, much of what I believe is simply my understanding, not Church doctrine.

What I meant by mainstream is what the rest of everybody who is Christian basically believes. For the most part, Christians outside the Mormon and other heresies believe that God always has been and always will be, and that he consists of three parts: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, and only the Son has come to the flesh. Mormons believe that those are three distinct and independent beings, with both the Father and the Son having flesh and bone, and the Holy Ghost once had a body, but now resides in us to give a "burning in the bosom" that Mormonism is true.

[american.swan]

What I meant by mainstream is what the rest of everybody who is Christian basically believes. For the most part, Christians outside the Mormon and other heresies believe that God always has been and always will be, and that he consists of three parts: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, and only the Son has come to the flesh. Mormons believe that those are three distinct and independent beings, with both the Father and the Son having flesh and bone, and the Holy Ghost once had a body, but now resides in us to give a "burning in the bosom" that Mormonism is true.

I believe the God, the Father, God, Son, and God Holy Ghost all have bodies. I believe they all have three different personalities, but some goal and character.

[Original_Intent]

I have never heard the doctrine that the Holy Ghost ever had a mortal body.

We believe that God and the Son do have perfected bodies. Having a body must be superior to being a spirit, otherwise, why the resurrection, raising from corruption to incorruption?

Did Christ not demonstrate the He did indeed have a body by eating with His disciples after His death? He also demonstrated that it was a body not bound to the limitations of what we consider a physical body - He appeared suddenly in their midst in a locked house. He ascended to heaven. The perfected bodies of God and Jesus Christ are not a limitation.

Again, not here to debate, but I do feel inclined to repond to such posts.

[nate895]

I believe the God, the Father, God, Son, and God Holy Ghost all have bodies. I believe they all have three different personalities, but some goal and character.

Mormons believe that these people are actual, real, people. God the Father is a man named Elohim, who had his own father somewhere else and who raised to become a God in his own right through his faith in his God. Jesus, who is also Jehovah and the God of the Old Testament according to Mormon doctrine, is the son Elohim and his daughter Mary, through real intercourse (not all Mormons know the particular doctrine that Jesus was not of a virgin birth).

[sedele]

Hell doesn't exists. The Bible is mistranslated to "burn forever" when in actuality it should be "burn up completely" Sodom and Gamorrah(sp??) isn't still burning today are they? Of course not. They were completely consumed.

Hell is just eternal sleep. Consumed completely. No pain forever. Just gone.

Well in that case...Hell sounds awesome! I love to sleep!

According to your Seventh Day Adventist doctrine, I guess Jesus died and resurrected in vain. What about all of the Prophets and Martyrs that were tortured to death?

[american.swan]

Well in that case...Hell sounds awesome! I love to sleep!

According to your Seventh Day Adventist doctrine, I guess Jesus died and resurrected in vain. What about all of the Prophets and Martyrs that were tortured to death?

First, why would that be in vain? God isn't going to hold some secret place in the universe where hell fire and brim stone burn forever that is completely against his nature. I'm not afraid of dying, I'm afraid of the pain involved. If you choose to "sleep" that's cool. That's your choice God gave you. He doesn't force you.

The prophets and martyrs died hopefully as faithful followers of God. Being a martyr should be a blessing. God will honor that faith. No greater love than to die for a friend and if God is your friend, that is love.

I don't speak for any denomination. I just state my own views.

[american.swan]

Mormons believe that these people are actual, real, people. God the Father is a man named Elohim, who had his own father somewhere else and who raised to become a God in his own right through his faith in his God. Jesus, who is also Jehovah and the God of the Old Testament according to Mormon doctrine, is the son Elohim and his daughter Mary, through real intercourse (not all Mormons know the particular doctrine that Jesus was not of a virgin birth).

Interesting. I hadn't heard some of that before.

[american.swan]

I have never heard the doctrine that the Holy Ghost ever had a mortal body.

We believe that God and the Son do have perfected bodies. Having a body must be superior to being a spirit, otherwise, why the resurrection, raising from corruption to incorruption?

Did Christ not demonstrate the He did indeed have a body by eating with His disciples after His death? He also demonstrated that it was a body not bound to the limitations of what we consider a physical body - He appeared suddenly in their midst in a locked house. He ascended to heaven. The perfected bodies of God and Jesus Christ are not a limitation.

Again, not here to debate, but I do feel inclined to repond to such posts.

Everyone is allowed their opinion. I'm just stating what makes sense to me.

[cheapseats]

I just want an answer to these questions.

So did Adam.

The request-more-like-determination-i.e.-self-will-run-riot was, in a Word, denied.

"No." is a complete sentence, but we don't like NO for an answer.

Mankind has been arm wrestling unto figurative and literal tug-of-war with it ever since.

[almantimes2]

So did Adam.

The request-more-like-determination-i.e.-self-will-run-riot was, in a Word, denied.

"No." is a complete sentence, but we don't like NO for an answer.

Mankind has been arm wrestling unto figurative and literal tug-of-war with it ever since.

What I meant was that I want an Opinion from a Christian as to what they believed the answer to this question to be.

[american.swan]

What I meant was that I want an Opinion from a Christian as to what they believed the answer to this question to be.

I'm not like Christ, so therefore, I'm not a Christian, so I can't answer your question. After I become like Christ character, I'll attempt to answer your question.

[sedele]

First, why would that be in vain? God isn't going to hold some secret place in the universe where hell fire and brim stone burn forever that is completely against his nature. I'm not afraid of dying, I'm afraid of the pain involved. If you choose to "sleep" that's cool. That's your choice God gave you. He doesn't force you.

The prophets and martyrs died hopefully as faithful followers of God. Being a martyr should be a blessing. God will honor that faith. No greater love than to die for a friend and if God is your friend, that is love.

Just as those who have been made clean by the Blood of the Lamb will live in Heaven for eternity, all of those souls who were not made clean will spend an eternity in a real place called Hell, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. This is what the Word of God says. Unless we're reading different bibles, this is what yours says as well.

Is there gonna be a literal fire in hell? I don't necessarily think so. I believe it's a parable. If you look in your bible, you will find on more than one occasion that Hell is referred to as being utterly dark and burning with fire. How can fire and darkness exist in the same location? It can't!

What I believe this is referring to, is Hell will be a place of real physical torment that will endure forever. We all know what it feels like to be burned. The pain in hell will be comparable.

Hell will also be a place of eternal mental and spiritual anguish. I don't care how hard you are when you are in a place of complete darkness with no light whatsoever, It's terrifying!

We all know what these two thing feel like in the natural realm, which is why Jesus, the God of the Old and New Testament, compared Hell to. He said so Himself that He primarily spoke in parables.

Please, if you consider yourself saved by the blood of Jesus, REPENT and turn away from this doctrine of devils and seek the Lord with all of your mind, heart, soul and might. This is an absolutely critical doctrine and your salvation depends on it.

[sedele]

I'm not like Christ, so therefore, I'm not a Christian, so I can't answer your question. After I become like Christ character, I'll attempt to answer your question.

Posterity.

[cheapseats]

What I meant was that I want an Opinion from a Christian as to what they believed the answer to this question to be.

You are no doubt familiar with the one about opinions being like assholes? Do you want opinions, or do you want Answers?




]
I just want to know why...

Also why does god...

If god can see into the future wouldn't he...

Why does god...

I just want an answer to these questions.

Understood. You and gazillions of others before you. DENIED.

It's infuriating, I know, I'm right there with you.




You could simply say god realized he made a mistake.

You could SAY it, but it flies in the face of omniscience.

Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent . . . that's the deal, if one Believes.




But you can't deny that in a way god may have changed his mind.

Sure you can. He hasn't changed His NO on the Tree of Knowledge, THAT much we know.

"Mysterious ways" not infrequently seem like design flaws, eh? On the other hand, if we could comprehend it all, God wouldn't be much greater than us . . . and THEN where would we be? ;)

[torchbearer]

if anyone pretends to tell you what god thinks, they are liars, blasphemer's of the spirit- and should be shot to prevent their dna from passing on.

[american.swan]

Just as those who have been made clean by the Blood of the Lamb will live in Heaven for eternity, all of those souls who were not made clean will spend an eternity in a real place called Hell, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. This is what the Word of God says. Unless we're reading different bibles, this is what yours says as well.

Is there gonna be a literal fire in hell? I don't necessarily think so. I believe it's a parable. If you look in your bible, you will find on more than one occasion that Hell is referred to as being utterly dark and burning with fire. How can fire and darkness exist in the same location? It can't!

What I believe this is referring to, is Hell will be a place of real physical torment that will endure forever. We all know what it feels like to be burned. The pain in hell will be comparable.

Hell will also be a place of eternal mental and spiritual anguish. I don't care how hard you are when you are in a place of complete darkness with no light whatsoever, It's terrifying!

We all know what these two thing feel like in the natural realm, which is why Jesus, the God of the Old and New Testament, compared Hell to. He said so Himself that He primarily spoke in parables.

Please, if you consider yourself saved by the blood of Jesus, REPENT and turn away from this doctrine of devils and seek the Lord with all of your mind, heart, soul and might. This is an absolutely critical doctrine and your salvation depends on it.

We are all allowed to have our views. This particular post above worries me because it gives me the impression that we should seek the Lord out of complete and utter fear of hell. Maybe that is what triggers some, but we truly need to seek the Lord for his good, just, and righteous. It is good to follow the Lord's will because it is right and just, and not for any other reason.

[buffalokid777]

First and foremost I don't want this to be hijacked turn into a 20 page Creationist-Evolutionist debate. Please stay on topic with "Gods logic" You can debate about that but please don't hijack into Evolution(Which I believe in but I'm not talking about that)


I just want to know why did god kill billions of people in the old testament because they were "Corrupt" Only to allow Noah to repopulate the planet without making any significant change to the human race. Wouldn't the human race fall to corruption anyway?

Also why does god decide to use force and death to meet his ends in the old testament. And then in the new testament he decides that the best course of action is to send Jesus?

You could simply say god realized he made a mistake. But Surely being a god of infinite energy he would be able to foresee this. Also not to mention the fact that there are different parts of the bible that state that god can give people visions into the future.

If god can see into the future wouldn't he realize he should of just sent Jesus in the first place and not had to kill all those people? You can debate the morality of this all you want. But you can't deny that in a way god may have changed his mind. Which also makes it hard for me to understand why some christian people say "God never changes".

Also I know people say this a lot but I have never gotten a very good answer.
Why does god simply do away with all the evil and suffering in the world instantly?

I don't mind Christians. I think they are very peaceful loving people. I just want an answer to these questions.

I believe the reason god allowed the ones to be killed in the flood was to wipe out the offspring of the fallen angels and man.

As for sending Jesus.

I think of this universe we exisit in as God's super computer. It gives god something to do, this universe is God's entertainment. The goal of the game is seperating all the possible combinations that is possible of DNA into good and bad through God's manipulation. And God's opponents in this game are Satan and the fallen angels. Removing the offspring of Man and the Fallen ones was necessary for a level playing field in this game.

I think in the early stages God tried punishment to move us to do what he wanted, but when that didn't work like he hoped, he decided to make an avatar named Jesus that held all of God's values for the free will avatars he needed to seperate into good and bad to emulate.

The matrix was popular for a reason, and I believe that reason is it can give some insight into this universe if you look at it the right way.

[american.swan]

Try checking out HellTruth.com on hell.

[Bman]

I'm only going to say that which you probably already know.


I just want to know why did god kill billions of people in the old testament because they were "Corrupt" Only to allow Noah to repopulate the planet without making any significant change to the human race. Wouldn't the human race fall to corruption anyway?

God didn't wirte the bible people did. As such it is all written from perspective. Perspective of people who believe everything happens by gods will, as such there has to be a reason god willed it.


Also why does god decide to use force and death to meet his ends in the old testament. And then in the new testament he decides that the best course of action is to send Jesus?

People, or possibly a person finally realized hat man could not act as the hand of god, because they are not god. Jesus was well traveled it would seem which means he had the chance to witness other beliefs and was freed of dogma.


You could simply say god realized he made a mistake. But Surely being a god of infinite energy he would be able to foresee this. Also not to mention the fact that there are different parts of the bible that state that god can give people visions into the future.

If one believes in God there is obviously no way God could make a mistake. To believe such would mean that there is no God. As such a person must find perspective to make the act a righteous one. It is a sad practice IMO.


If god can see into the future wouldn't he realize he should of just sent Jesus in the first place and not had to kill all those people? You can debate the morality of this all you want. But you can't deny that in a way god may have changed his mind. Which also makes it hard for me to understand why some christian people say "God never changes".

Fear was as useful back then as it is now.


Also I know people say this a lot but I have never gotten a very good answer.
Why does god simply do away with all the evil and suffering in the world instantly?

This guy asks some good questions also. THe videos long and a bit over the top but if you got noting esle to do...
YouTube - Why are you such a twat? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bATgXm3hogA)



I don't mind Christians. I think they are very peaceful loving people. I just want an answer to these questions.

Do you think an answer exists that would satisfy you? At least an answer another human could give?

[Working Poor]

Some people are born into families that are so called devout Christians and hate everything about Christianity. Others grow up with no religious influence and decide they want to accept Jesus.

Does God have a right to decide He wants to do something different with his creatures? God can take us back to the stone age if he wants or he can eliminate us. Maybe we just can't understand what God wants with us. We get all hung up about the sin thing. Sin is not healthy for us it causes death. We want our right to sin. Maybe God has hope for us.

Generator
Operator
Destroyer

I know I do not know the mind of God. I hardly can know my own mind and predict myself. I would like to live without sin. To be pure love energy. Sin eats this love energy. Sin is natural for people. We destroy our selves. We hate one another in the name of God. Is this what we are supposed to do?

I am going to find the religion of my own heart and soul the one that truly loves God.

[GunnyFreedom]

Still not at a keyboard, but will give a quick answer on the flood.

The Messiah was prophecied to come from the line of Seth. The blood had to be pure human for the DNA of the Messiah to attach to the Word and form a life. However, the nephillim had interbred with humans and polluted the bloodline. Without a pure blooded human, there could not be a Messiah, and without a Messiah there could be no redemption. Without redemption, Adam, Eve, you, and me would face eternal death no matter what else we do.

But because the human bloodline was purified by the flood before it had corrupted the line of Seth, therefore redemption is made available in Messiah to ALL generations, including to many of those wiped out in the flood.

[Bman]

Still not at a keyboard, but will give a quick answer on the flood.

The Messiah was prophecied to come from the line of Seth. The blood had to be pure human for the DNA of the Messiah to attach to the Word and form a life. However, the nephillim had interbred with humans and polluted the bloodline. Without a pure blooded human, there could not be a Messiah, and without a Messiah there could be no redemption. Without redemption, Adam, Eve, you, and me would face eternal death no matter what else we do.

But because the human bloodline was purified by the flood before it had corrupted the line of Seth, therefore redemption is made available in Messiah to ALL generations, including to many of those wiped out in the flood.

Were do you get this information from Gunny? My NIV version of the bible seems to be missing a lot of this information. I also have a King James Version but cannot reference it. It is burried in boxes at my parents house.

[GunnyFreedom]

Were do you get this information from Gunny? My NIV version of the bible seems to be missing a lot of this information. I also have a King James Version but cannot reference it. It is burried in boxes at my parents house.

The info is collected from cover to cover. Although I believe that the NIV is not very faithful to the source Hebrew and Greek, the same logical infrastructure should still be contained within it.

I can't assemble the quote chains from my iPhone, but I will do so when I am at a keyboard. In the interim, if you are interested in doing the research, the doctrine comes from a Biblical literalist perspective on Hebrew Roots Christianity. Hebrew Roots Christianity, of course, has a markedly different basic theosophy than Western/Roman Christianity -- including a significantly greater reliance on what the western church calls "the Old Testament."

The data should be readily available somewhere online. Someone in this thread already referenced the nephillim connection, and this narrative is well accepted amongst the Hebrew Roots believers.

That should be enough to find the Biblical justification for the above narrative. In any case I will work on assembling the structure when I am at my computer rather than just my phone.

[LittleLightShining]

First and foremost I don't want this to be hijacked turn into a 20 page Creationist-Evolutionist debate. Please stay on topic with "Gods logic" You can debate about that but please don't hijack into Evolution(Which I believe in but I'm not talking about that)


I just want to know why did god kill billions of people in the old testament because they were "Corrupt" Only to allow Noah to repopulate the planet without making any significant change to the human race. Wouldn't the human race fall to corruption anyway?

Also why does god decide to use force and death to meet his ends in the old testament. And then in the new testament he decides that the best course of action is to send Jesus?

You could simply say god realized he made a mistake. But Surely being a god of infinite energy he would be able to foresee this. Also not to mention the fact that there are different parts of the bible that state that god can give people visions into the future.

If god can see into the future wouldn't he realize he should of just sent Jesus in the first place and not had to kill all those people? You can debate the morality of this all you want. But you can't deny that in a way god may have changed his mind. Which also makes it hard for me to understand why some christian people say "God never changes".

Also I know people say this a lot but I have never gotten a very good answer.
Why does god simply do away with all the evil and suffering in the world instantly?

I don't mind Christians. I think they are very peaceful loving people. I just want an answer to these questions.Ask Him.

[Objectivist]

First and foremost I don't want this to be hijacked turn into a 20 page Creationist-Evolutionist debate. Please stay on topic with "Gods logic" You can debate about that but please don't hijack into Evolution(Which I believe in but I'm not talking about that)


I just want to know why did god kill billions of people in the old testament because they were "Corrupt" Only to allow Noah to repopulate the planet without making any significant change to the human race. Wouldn't the human race fall to corruption anyway?

Also why does god decide to use force and death to meet his ends in the old testament. And then in the new testament he decides that the best course of action is to send Jesus?

You could simply say god realized he made a mistake. But Surely being a god of infinite energy he would be able to foresee this. Also not to mention the fact that there are different parts of the bible that state that god can give people visions into the future.

If god can see into the future wouldn't he realize he should of just sent Jesus in the first place and not had to kill all those people? You can debate the morality of this all you want. But you can't deny that in a way god may have changed his mind. Which also makes it hard for me to understand why some christian people say "God never changes".

Also I know people say this a lot but I have never gotten a very good answer.
Why does god simply do away with all the evil and suffering in the world instantly?

I don't mind Christians. I think they are very peaceful loving people. I just want an answer to these questions.

Being my typical self I have to ask if (there was a god) god could wipe every human off the face of the earth, even the newborn baby who really couldn't be corrupt, then why did god have to make hell? Seems counter productive, why design something that is completely unneeded. If you can wipe everyone out that easily why does god allow wars to happen? And how come if humans are gods children, does one side win and one side lose in war?

Now I'll be ready for the "god works in mysterious ways" bullshit. No wonder I don't believe in the hocus pocus, I need a leader that knows exactly what they are doing and why. Communication is a big plus so why don't one of you believers get a definitive answer, god can leave a voicemail on my phone when you get ahold of god.

[GunnyFreedom]

Being my typical self I have to ask if (there was a god) god could wipe every human off the face of the earth, even the newborn baby who really couldn't be corrupt, then why did god have to make hell? Seems counter productive, why design something that is completely unneeded. If you can wipe everyone out that easily why does god allow wars to happen? And how come if humans are gods children, does one side win and one side lose in war?

Now I'll be ready for the "god works in mysterious ways" bullshit. No wonder I don't believe in the hocus pocus, I need a leader that knows exactly what they are doing and why. Communication is a big plus so why don't one of you believers get a definitive answer, god can leave a voicemail on my phone when you get ahold of god.

The reality is that the modern Western Church's concept of 'hell' as a torturous place of eternal hellfire and damnation with sulphur and brimstone...is an invention of Dante, an author of fiction -- inspired by poor English translations of Hebrew and Greek, and assembled by wild imagination.

In the scripture there are two different concepts that have been translated as 'hell.'

/Sheol/ means simply 'the grave' as in a 6 foot deep hole in the earth where corpses are tossed.

/Gehenna/ refers to a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where refuse is completely and permanently destroyed. (not tortured forever)

The truth is that most of the modern western church bears almost no resemblance to the church founded by the Messiah. Don't be surprised that sheeple can be misled en masse, nor that they will rather cling to those misled convictions due to a misplaced reliance on tradition.

[pacelli]

Being my typical self I have to ask if (there was a god) god could wipe every human off the face of the earth, even the newborn baby who really couldn't be corrupt, then why did god have to make hell? Seems counter productive, why design something that is completely unneeded. If you can wipe everyone out that easily why does god allow wars to happen? And how come if humans are gods children, does one side win and one side lose in war?

Now I'll be ready for the "god works in mysterious ways" bullshit. No wonder I don't believe in the hocus pocus, I need a leader that knows exactly what they are doing and why. Communication is a big plus so why don't one of you believers get a definitive answer, god can leave a voicemail on my phone when you get ahold of god.

God doesn't work in mysterious ways. He told you exactly what he did and why he did it. You are either not reading the bible yourself and going off of your previous exposure, or, taking someone else's word for it. There's no hocus pocus involved with god. He used a secretary to give us a full report of the way it is.

Why does god allow babies to die and wars to happen? There's always a consequence to breaking the law, and ignorance of the law doesn't mean you will avoid the penalty. God gave us a very specific set of instructions for a number of things, and told us that there are penalties for violating those instructions. Now if you were in a vehicle & asked the driver to turn left at the traffic light and warned them not to turn right, and they gave you the finger & turned right into oncoming traffic, would that car accident be your fault, or the driver's fault? When it comes to breaking the law and experiencing the penalties, we are the proximate cause of our own injuries. We make the choice to give god the finger, and bring the penalty upon ourselves.

Regarding wars-there are some specific laws in Deuteronomy 20 about how to select soldiers, and how to make a war. Read that (its short) and then ask yourself whether the US has been following that law. What is the penalty for breaking that law?

PS-We've already had a very good report in this thread of what "hell" refers to.

[Original_Intent]

Ultimately, you can get OPINIONS here, but the only answers you can count on is from the source.


And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
- Matthew 16:17

[GunnyFreedom]

God doesn't work in mysterious ways. He told you exactly what he did and why he did it. You are either not reading the bible yourself and going off of your previous exposure, or, taking someone else's word for it. There's no hocus pocus involved with god. He used a secretary to give us a full report of the way it is.

<~~>

I couldn't agree more. God does not work in mysterious ways, the /logos/ of God is the ultimate in perfect logic and reason. The illogical and unreasonable have no place in God.

That's not to say that we will always UNDERSTAND the line of reason being employed at the time. Especially given the vast difference in perspective we must overcome in trying to understand -- we are in temporality while God is in eternity. We are within time, while He is outside of time altogether.

I am now back at my computer and have some catching up to do in other areas, but I will be able to construct the Nephilim/Bloodline of Seth position before too very long...

[Elwar]

I just want to know why did god kill billions of people in the old testament because they were "Corrupt" Only to allow Noah to repopulate the planet without making any significant change to the human race. Wouldn't the human race fall to corruption anyway?

God created man, he laid down a single rule...don't eat the apple or you're out of the garden. They ate the apple and were kicked out. He watched his creation, watching to see what would become of man if left to their own devices. They kept falling into the same primitive instinctual decadence with no morality. So he pretty much wiped the slate clean so that he could start from scratch, with a smaller more manageable population. It was more of a trial and error period for God and man. When things got out of control...wipe them out and try a new strategy.


Also why does god decide to use force and death to meet his ends in the old testament. And then in the new testament he decides that the best course of action is to send Jesus?

He most likely reached a point where he was frustrated with man falling into the same routine over and over with everything he tried...so he was like, I have to go down there myself and find out why they keep screwing up. I'll inject my spirit into a human being and experience the human life from birth do death and get to the bottom of it all. He lived the life and found out what it meant to be human and the struggles that went along with it. He felt empathy and fully understood what man was going through...he tried to outline how we should live while he was here, and in the end he forgave us because he understood.


You could simply say god realized he made a mistake. But Surely being a god of infinite energy he would be able to foresee this. Also not to mention the fact that there are different parts of the bible that state that god can give people visions into the future.

I'm sure God can see the inevitable in a way that you might see someone in a car on a cell phone looking down as another car is coming around a truck parked on a corner and you know what's going to happen (but in a larger sense), or you see a kid who's mother works all day and he's all alone and he starts hanging out with the drug crowd...you have an idea of what's going to happen and how his life will most likely turn out.


If god can see into the future wouldn't he realize he should of just sent Jesus in the first place and not had to kill all those people? You can debate the morality of this all you want. But you can't deny that in a way god may have changed his mind. Which also makes it hard for me to understand why some christian people say "God never changes".

I'm sure God stays the same...but God put us here for a reason, I don't think it is so that we will follow some path that he decides for us, but to watch us like one would watch an ant farm. You can manipulate it a bit, but most of the fun is watching developments that you wouldn't have thought about.


Also I know people say this a lot but I have never gotten a very good answer.
Why does god simply do away with all the evil and suffering in the world instantly?

Why not just keep your kids locked in their rooms for their whole lifes...feed them and let them watch TV while they are safe and no harm comes to them? He gives man free will, he wants us to make mistakes and learn from them. He wants us to evolve and do things that he knows we can do but he wants us to do them on our own without him being some sort of puppet master. We are all God's children, if you could take away all suffering for your children you would probably do it, but it would be sacrificing the even bigger picture that comes with free will.


I don't mind Christians. I think they are very peaceful loving people. I just want an answer to these questions.

I like to think of God as the creater of a video game that has the best artificial intelligence that he could come up with and a virtual world that he has created. He tweaks things here and there, he sits there watching us as we interact, enjoying his creation.
But just imagine if you created a game with artificial life and all the life forms ever did as they multiplied was just get together and have sex...you start it off with two and they multiply, they start breeding and every single time it's just a big group getting together having sex...the most basic programming you put into the game mainly so that the life would multiply...but you never intended for it to be the main purpose of the game.

Think of early society compared to where we are now...he made a huge universe and all of these really cool things for us to discover. But instead early man was just interested in the most basic instincts. It was easier for him to just wipe out a whole society and start from scratch than to go through the whole process of steering them all toward a better path. And maybe that's the lesson...maybe society can degenerate so much that there's no saving it.

[Kraig]

Well to the OPs questions, I was taught that:

1. Since God created us, and because we are "sinners" it is not morally wrong for him to kill any of us. The fact that we can be saved through Jesus was pure generosity, and it would have been perfectly OK for him to just kill us all instead.

2. Man cannot understand God's logic, say they would always pull that one out if they couldn't directly answer the question, it's a nice catch 22.

Does what I was taught represent Christianity and the Bible? I think so.

[MelissaWV]

Various types of spirituality find their common root in the learning process. One cannot learn without occasionally being wrong. The very fact we interact is a grand exercise in patience, understanding, doubt, frustration...

The Bible is a much broader work than is normally put forth. There are numerous books written by people who are referred to in the "accepted" versions which do not appear in those accepted versions. Like any anthology, some items were dropped or trimmed or changed a bit. The Bible was, ultimately, assembled by man. When the version you are reading was assembled has great bearing on what it permits, highlights, plays down, and omits.

What each person must ask, then, is what they believe of a Creator? Was it a particle? Was it a being with a white beard and a divine, roaring voice? Is it the spark of infinitely divided creation that burns as a soul and animates the flesh? That is pretty personal.

As for me, I find that when I'm drawing some of the lines go wrong. Sometimes something doesn't look the way I want it to. If I were a divine being, I'd likely realize that the "wrong" often ends up looking better than my planned paths.

[Mesogen]

Ultimately, you can get OPINIONS here, but the only answers you can count on is from the source.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/upload/2009/05/word_of_christ.jpeg

[torchbearer]

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/upload/2009/05/word_of_christ.jpeg

hahahahaha!
I guess that is why we have so many different church's representing "christ" all with completely different doctrines.

[Dieseler]

hahahahaha!
I guess that is why we have so many different church's representing "christ" all with completely different doctrines.

I'm no scholar but I believe that to be the work of Satan.
Throw in all the other religions as well.
He loves them all.
The more divisive and confusing the better for him.
Mix a little truth in with a few lies and voil'a, you got yourself a new doctrine and a happy Satanic master that is willing to lead some idjets.
Satanic Order out of Chaos.
But his time is short and the real teacher will get it all straightened out soon enough.

[Bman]

I'm no scholar but I believe that to be the work of Satan.
Throw in all the other religions as well.
He loves them all.
The more divisive and confusing the better for him.
Mix a little truth in with a few lies and voil'a, you got yourself a new doctrine and a happy Satanic master that is willing to lead some idjets.
Satanic Order out of Chaos.
But his time is short and the real teacher will get it all straightened out soon enough.

New Doctrine, old doctrine. It's all the same. A bunch of human lies.

If one is to believe in a god the first thing they must recognize is that they are not God.

[Dieseler]

New Doctrine, old doctrine. It's all the same. A bunch of human lies.

If one is to believe in a god the first thing they must recognize is that they are not God.

That's a darn good start.

I find it hard to believe how easily some people are fooled into believing they are God somehow. They can't control anything really, not even their own lives but yet they buy that load of poop.
Satan is a crafty rascal though, he has humans believing all kind of stuff including that they are God now. Its a pretty popular notion these days from what I can see.

[Objectivist]

God doesn't work in mysterious ways. He told you exactly what he did and why he did it. You are either not reading the bible yourself and going off of your previous exposure, or, taking someone else's word for it. There's no hocus pocus involved with god. He used a secretary to give us a full report of the way it is.

Why does god allow babies to die and wars to happen? There's always a consequence to breaking the law, and ignorance of the law doesn't mean you will avoid the penalty. God gave us a very specific set of instructions for a number of things, and told us that there are penalties for violating those instructions. Now if you were in a vehicle & asked the driver to turn left at the traffic light and warned them not to turn right, and they gave you the finger & turned right into oncoming traffic, would that car accident be your fault, or the driver's fault? When it comes to breaking the law and experiencing the penalties, we are the proximate cause of our own injuries. We make the choice to give god the finger, and bring the penalty upon ourselves.

Regarding wars-there are some specific laws in Deuteronomy 20 about how to select soldiers, and how to make a war. Read that (its short) and then ask yourself whether the US has been following that law. What is the penalty for breaking that law?

PS-We've already had a very good report in this thread of what "hell" refers to.

Well, you've got a couple problems here slick. First a god or jesus never put pen to parchment, or quill. SO all the bible is as far as one can tell is a 17th century translation and interpretation of books written in different tongues. Like I said, have god give me a call ( unless that was god at the coffee shop with the free cup of Joe this morning?) I'll have my phone on!

[Dieseler]

Well, you've got a couple problems here slick. First a god or jesus never put pen to parchment, or quill. SO all the bible is as far as one can tell is a 17th century translation and interpretation of books written in different tongues. Like I said, have god give me a call ( unless that was god at the coffee shop with the free cup of Joe this morning?) I'll have my phone on!

Don't worry sport, he's got your number and a spot reserved for you at the head of the class with a thousand years to get through to you.
Same for us all.
Its all good.

[Theocrat]

if anyone pretends to tell you what god thinks, they are liars, blasphemer's of the spirit- and should be shot to prevent their dna from passing on.

In order for your statement to be true, it must be the case that you know what God thinks, since you claim to know with certainty that people who tell others what God thinks are liars and blasphemers of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, how do you know that other people are lying and/or blaspheming the Spirit of God when they speak on God's thoughts?

If that is what you believe, then I hope you realize the dilemma you've put yourself in because how then can we know that you aren't lying about what God thinks insomuch that no one can know what He thinks? Are you lying and blaspheming the Holy Ghost, too? :confused:

Maybe you should get your gun ready and be prepared to point it at yourself...

[torchbearer]

In order for your statement to be true, it must be the case that you know what God thinks

What part of what I said states- this is what god thinks?
Not one part, so you are full of shit as usual.

[Bman]

In order for your statement to be true, it must be the case that you know what God thinks, since you claim to know with certainty that people who tell others what God thinks are liars and blasphemers of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, how do you know that other people are lying and/or blaspheming the Spirit of God when they speak on God's thoughts?

Could you tell me what I think?

[Theocrat]

What part of what I said states- this is what god thinks?
Not one part, so you are full of shit as usual.

Implicitly in your post, you would have to know what God thinks in order to claim that anyone else who speaks about His thoughts is lying and/or blaspheming the Spirit. If you had actually read my post, you would have understood that. Instead, you'd rather just dismiss logic and stick to your usual rant against anyone who believes God has spoken to us through His divine Scriptures.

[torchbearer]

Implicitly in your post, you would have to know what God thinks in order to claim that anyone else who speaks about His thoughts is lying and/or blaspheming the Spirit. If you had actually read my post, you would have understood that. Instead, you'd rather just dismiss logic and stick to your usual rant against anyone who believes God has spoken to us through His divine Scriptures.

No- you implied it. I stated that you are the liar for telling people what god thinks because you aren't god.

[Bman]

Implicitly in your post, you would have to know what God thinks in order to claim that anyone else who speaks about His thoughts is lying and/or blaspheming the Spirit. If you had actually read my post, you would have understood that. Instead, you'd rather just dismiss logic and stick to your usual rant against anyone who believes God has spoken to us through His divine Scriptures.

So what's God's favorite color? What does he think about popular American Literature? Does he like romantic candle light dinners, walks on the beach? How about airplanes what does he think about them. Maybe space travel?

If you know what God thinks these should be easy questions to answer.

[torchbearer]

And "if" the scripture is "god's mind"- he changes it over time.
mosaic law is not the same as Jesus' law.
Each church has a different doctrine of what "god thinks" from that "scripture".
Someone is lying, and only one of you can be telling the truth- more likely you are all lying.
I couldn't think of anything more insulting if I was a divine.
How many people have you pushed away from God this year?
Mighty big gamble- if indeed you have a soul.

You are a liar. Simple as that.

[Theocrat]

No- you implied it. I stated that you are the liar for telling people what god thinks because you aren't god.

You're right. I am not God, but that doesn't mean I or any other Christian cannot know God's thoughts. God has given us His inspired word, the Bible, and it's true whether you believe it contains God's thoughts or not. That is the nature of truth.

However, if being God is the precondition for being able to know anything about His thoughts, then you must be God because you're telling everyone else that Christians are liars for speaking about what God thinks. Otherwise, how do you know anyone is lying about what God thinks?

[Objectivist]

Someone step up and prove the negative yet?

[Bman]

God has given us His inspired word, the Bible, and it's true whether you believe it contains God's thoughts or not.

How do you plan on proving that.

[torchbearer]

how do you know anyone is lying about what God thinks?

Because their story of "what he thinks" isn't consistent.
Please refer to this thread and to the many doctrines of the many churches.

[Theocrat]

Because their story of "what he thinks" isn't consistent.
Please refer to this thread and to the many doctrines of the many churches.

That doesn't prove that no one can know God's thoughts. It just means that some people are mistaken about what God thinks and others are not. There are different interpretations of the Constitution, too. Does that mean any explanation of the Constitution is false? Absolutely not. Yet, your reasoning is horribly fallacious by the fact that you fail to realize there is a distinction between the right view of God's thoughts and the wrong view of God's thoughts. Differing expressions of those things does not negate the thing explained itself.

[torchbearer]

That doesn't prove that no one can know God's thoughts. It just means that some people are mistaken about what God thinks and others are not. There are different interpretations of the Constitution, too. Does that mean any explanation of the Constitution is false? Absolutely not. Yet, your reasoning is horribly fallacious by the fact that you fail to realize there is a distinction between the right view of God's thoughts and the wrong view of God's thoughts. Differing expressions of those things does not negate the thing explained itself.

Right- detective questions 3 suspects- each has a completely different story of the same event.
They are all telling the truth.
If this is your logic, you fail.

[Bman]

That doesn't prove that no one can know God's thoughts. It just means that some people are mistaken about what God thinks and others are not.

In life who decides that? Certainly not you.

[Theocrat]

Right- detective questions 3 suspects- each has a completely different story of the same event.
They are all telling the truth.
If this is your logic, you fail.

I wonder if you even read and understood my post. I never said that all three explanations are truthful. I simply stated that some views are true and other views are false. Your logic fails because you can't even see the fallacy of what you've stated, namely,

Person A has X view of God.
Person B has Y view of God.
Therefore, Persons A and B are lying about God.

Once again, that is not a sound argument because your conclusion does not (and cannot) follow from your premises.

[Bman]

LOL. I guess Theo has me on ignore. Too bad once again he'd learn how wrong he is.

[Theocrat]

LOL. I guess Theo has me on ignore. Too bad once again he'd learn how wrong he is.

I don't have you on my Ignore List, for I put no members on there. However, I realize that you do not have the patience nor intention of truly wanting to know the answers to those questions you've asked. I would answer one of your questions, and then you would ask three more from those answers, never seeking to change your presuppositions and never wanting an intimate relationship to your God. So, I simply skip over your empty inquiries. :)

[torchbearer]

LOL. I guess Theo has me on ignore. Too bad once again he'd learn how wrong he is.

This way he can see you post, in case he has you on ignore.
Theo has been wrong for a long time, but that doesn't stop him from illogical conclusions.

We studied this in Social Psychology, the lengths a person will go to.. to keep their reality together. Even putting together a world view that is neither consistent or logical.
It is rather sad, but there isn't much you can do about it.

You have seen the mirror held up and the truth rejected. And in fairness, it is a bit much for someone to handle to have the foundation of their entire world destroyed.

[Theocrat]

This way he can see you post, in case he has you on ignore.
Theo has been wrong for a long time, but that doesn't stop him from illogical conclusions.

We studied this in Social Psychology, the lengths a person will go to.. to keep their reality together. Even putting together a world view that is neither consistent or logical.
It is rather sad, but there isn't much you can do about it.

You have seen the mirror held up and the truth rejected. And in fairness, it is a bit much for someone to handle to have the foundation of their entire world destroyed.

With all due respect, I think I have sought to be more logical than you have been in this thread. You can't even admit that your entire complaint against anyone who claims to know God's thoughts is utterly fallacious. It is you who has an inconsistent worldview, and even one which can not justify the laws of logic to begin with.

So, you can keep rambling on about what you don't think people know about God, torchbearer. In the end of it all, you still won't change the truth of God's revelation. You'll just be another dissenter dead and gone in history whose ideas will be washed away into the abyss of human ignorance and replaced by the freedom which God's word only brings in true salvation of body and soul.

[Bman]

I don't have you on my Ignore List, for I put no members on there. However, I realize that you do not have the patience nor intention of truly wanting to know the answers to those questions you've asked. I would answer one of your questions, and then you would ask three more from those answers, never seeking to change your presuppositions and never wanting an intimate relationship to your God. So, I simply skip over your empty inquiries. :)


That's what me and Torch are trying to tell you. There's no way you can know that you have the answers. You can think you do, you can believe you do, but that doesn't me you do. What makes you right, and other christians wrong?

[torchbearer]

That's what me and Torch are trying to tell you. There's no way you can know that you have the answers. You can think you do, you can believe you do, but that doesn't me you do. What makes you right, and other christians wrong?

because, every christian thinks they know- yet few of them agree.
Read my signature.
Talking logic with someone trying to keep their house of cards from falling isn't easy.
I wouldn't say it is a complete waste, but isn't like theo will one day go... "i have to be honest with myself- this is just my faith and not fact. i don't really KNOW"
the agnostic admission is the most honest one.

[Deborah K]

First and foremost I don't want this to be hijacked turn into a 20 page Creationist-Evolutionist debate. Please stay on topic with "Gods logic" You can debate about that but please don't hijack into Evolution(Which I believe in but I'm not talking about that)


I just want to know why did god kill billions of people in the old testament because they were "Corrupt" Only to allow Noah to repopulate the planet without making any significant change to the human race. Wouldn't the human race fall to corruption anyway?

Also why does god decide to use force and death to meet his ends in the old testament. And then in the new testament he decides that the best course of action is to send Jesus?

You could simply say god realized he made a mistake. But Surely being a god of infinite energy he would be able to foresee this. Also not to mention the fact that there are different parts of the bible that state that god can give people visions into the future.

If god can see into the future wouldn't he realize he should of just sent Jesus in the first place and not had to kill all those people? You can debate the morality of this all you want. But you can't deny that in a way god may have changed his mind. Which also makes it hard for me to understand why some christian people say "God never changes".

Also I know people say this a lot but I have never gotten a very good answer.
Why does god simply do away with all the evil and suffering in the world instantly?

I don't mind Christians. I think they are very peaceful loving people. I just want an answer to these questions.

Do you view God as a puppetmaster? Cuz I don't.

[american.swan]

I'm no scholar but I believe that to be the work of Satan.
Throw in all the other religions as well.
He loves them all.
The more divisive and confusing the better for him.
Mix a little truth in with a few lies and voil'a, you got yourself a new doctrine and a happy Satanic master that is willing to lead some idjets.
Satanic Order out of Chaos.
But his time is short and the real teacher will get it all straightened out soon enough.

I can agree this can be the work of Satan but I also think it's just the work of peer pressure, humanity's mistakes, and lack of logical thinking.

[ClayTrainor]

Everyone has a different interpretation of what "God" is.

I personally think existence is god, and each and every soul / brain / whatever, is a fragment of a greater, singular consciousness.

When we die, i believe we will exist, only as the universe and our 'soul' will be distributed amongst it's entirety :)

Of course, i really have no clue, and we are all left to speculation, until we die. :cool:

[american.swan]

because, every christian thinks they know- yet few of them agree.
Read my signature.
Talking logic with someone trying to keep their house of cards from falling isn't easy.
I wouldn't say it is a complete waste, but isn't like theo will one day go... "i have to be honest with myself- this is just my faith and not fact. i don't really KNOW"
the agnostic admission is the most honest one.

THEOCRAT!! TORCHBEARER!!! Freedom lovers!! This isn't the place for this. AND go read 1 John 3.

[american.swan]

That's what me and Torch are trying to tell you. There's no way you can know that you have the answers. You can think you do, you can believe you do, but that doesn't me you do. What makes you right, and other christians wrong?

This I can answer easily. They all have varying amounts of light from God. Let me explain. This makes sense. Let's say I read a chapter in the Bible under stress, humbling myself before God, and pray a lot and God shows me some light. I then stand up from my knees with truth I never had before. Now instead of getting back on my knees...I run off and tell people what I learned which turns into a denomination, mixed with all my previous views. Very few, if any, members of said new denomination wants to get back on their knees and learn more humbly from the LORD. They instead spend their time defending their new limited views from attack from others who like this new denomination won't seek more light, but rather just spend all the time attacking and defending others views, too.

[torchbearer]

THEOCRAT!! TORCHBEARER!!! Freedom lovers!! This isn't the place for this. AND go read 1 John 3.

this thread is entitled What was God's logic?
a question that suppose a human on this earth knows.
What other place would such a debate occur?
I don't care what Theo does in his house, nor what he teaches his kids.
It matters not to me.
But this is a public exchange. Ideas will be challenged.

[Dieseler]

I was praying for a solution to a problem of my own the other day and I guess I implied to God that I wanted an answer 1st thing in the morning.
True to form, I forgot that I had prayed at all the next morning.
Anyway, God does not talk to me really, don't get me wrong, and I don't blame him for not doing so.
Getting to the point, this morning when I awoke, I had an understanding of sorts, dunno how but what I felt that I knew was that I needed to do something MORE for someone else.
So instead of me getting an answer for a problem of my own, I feel God was telling me that I needed to make a sacrifice, tithe or whatever you want to call it.
My thinking, since I'm Christian, non denominational is that I need to find something to either provide some of my time to voluntarily or make a monetary donation.
Its just a realization that I had and I feel it come from God.
I thought I would share that during this thread.
Now I must find something or someone that really needs either needs my skills or would greatly benefit from whatever meager monetary donation that I could make.
I'm not tithing to any church either.
I'm skipping the middle men.
What was Gods logic?
That's the way God works I think.
He will provide as he always does, but I must provide as well now.
I know this...

[pacelli]

Well, you've got a couple problems here slick. First a god or jesus never put pen to parchment, or quill. SO all the bible is as far as one can tell is a 17th century translation and interpretation of books written in different tongues. Like I said, have god give me a call ( unless that was god at the coffee shop with the free cup of Joe this morning?) I'll have my phone on!

A nice objective response that assumes several facts not in evidence. Your flip attitude demonstrates that the only interest you have in objectivity regarding this issue is your handle. I'm done expending mental resources on pseudo-intellectual people such as yourself.

[torchbearer]

I'm skipping the middle men.

The churches will tell you that God isn't happy with you.
You need a middle man to tell you what God wants. Otherwise, you could get it wrong.

[Andrew-Austin]

I was praying for a solution to a problem of my own the other day and I guess I implied to God that I wanted an answer 1st thing in the morning.
True to form, I forgot that I had prayed at all the next morning.
Anyway, God does not talk to me really, don't get me wrong, and I don't blame him for not doing so.
Getting to the point, this morning when I awoke, I had an understanding of sorts, dunno how but what I felt that I knew was that I needed to do something MORE for someone else.
So instead of me getting an answer for a problem of my own, I feel God was telling me that I needed to make a sacrifice, tithe or whatever you want to call it.
My thinking, since I'm Christian, non denominational is that I need to find something to either provide some of my time to voluntarily or make a monetary donation.
Its just a realization that I had and I feel it come from God.
I thought I would share that during this thread.
Now I must find something or someone that really needs either needs my skills or would greatly benefit from whatever meager monetary donation that I could make.
I'm not tithing to any church either.
I'm skipping the middle men.
What was Gods logic?
That's the way God works I think.
He will provide as he always does, but I must provide as well now.
I know this...

Glad you discovered an answer to the dilemma that you were facing, however there is no need to call yourself God. If there is absolutely no evidence to you that God implanted an answer in your mind in some way, other than mere coincidence if even that, you discovered the answer all by yourself.

[Dieseler]

The churches will tell you that God isn't happy with you.
You need a middle man to tell you what God wants. Otherwise, you could get it wrong.

I never have been concerned what churchians think.
I would ask for suggestions on a charity but I think I also had the realization that I needed to keep this local.
Maybe even inside my own neighborhood.
I have my eyes open and I assume it will develop eventually.

[Dieseler]

Glad you discovered an answer to the dilemma that you were facing, however there is no need to call yourself God. If there is absolutely no evidence, subjective even, that God implanted an answer in to your mind in some way, other than mere coincidence if even that, you discovered the answer all by yourself.

Huh?
No, my dilemma is ongoing.
God just sort of come to me and let me know that maybe someone elses was more pressing than my own.
Trust me.
That's not my usual way of thinking.
I usually take care of my own and find a way of justifying that was all there was enough for.

[torchbearer]

I never have been concerned what churchians think.
I would ask for suggestions on a charity but I think I also had the realization that I needed to keep this local.
Maybe even inside my own neighborhood.
I have my eyes open and I assume it will develop eventually.

hopefully you know i was being sarcastic. :D
I'm glad you are on your own path of finding and understand a divine.

[Andrew-Austin]

Huh?
No, my dilemma is ongoing.
God just sort of come to me and let me know that maybe someone elses was more pressing than my own.
Trust me.
That's not my usual way of thinking.
I usually take care of my own and find a way of justifying that was all there was enough for.

This is what I'm getting from your story:

1. You prayed to God for some guidance on some particular subject/dilemma
2. Shortly thereafter you hatch a thought about said dilemma that is somewhat atypical of what you would normally produce
3. Blammo whammo, proof to you that God exists and he/she/it gave you guidance without communicating it in any observable way.

Its not like anyone has a change in heart or mind ever. And its not like God's answers to people's prayers, whether they be affirmative, negative, or an 'indicative' non-response even, have been completely imagined by said believers to fit the context of whatever situation that arrives naturally and on its on. People pray for their loved ones to get better, and sometimes they die and sometimes they heal, but all the same no matter the prayer believers believe that whatever happened, happened because of God and that was his answer. God is as omnipotent and ever present as peoples thoughts allow him to be. In the old days when people didn't understand anything, God was responsible for everything. Nowadays he is responsible for much less, including the unknown of how you spawned a certain atypical thought.

[sedele]

I was praying for a solution to a problem of my own the other day and I guess I implied to God that I wanted an answer 1st thing in the morning.
True to form, I forgot that I had prayed at all the next morning.
Anyway, God does not talk to me really, don't get me wrong, and I don't blame him for not doing so.
Getting to the point, this morning when I awoke, I had an understanding of sorts, dunno how but what I felt that I knew was that I needed to do something MORE for someone else.
So instead of me getting an answer for a problem of my own, I feel God was telling me that I needed to make a sacrifice, tithe or whatever you want to call it.
My thinking, since I'm Christian, non denominational is that I need to find something to either provide some of my time to voluntarily or make a monetary donation.
Its just a realization that I had and I feel it come from God.
I thought I would share that during this thread.
Now I must find something or someone that really needs either needs my skills or would greatly benefit from whatever meager monetary donation that I could make.
I'm not tithing to any church either.
I'm skipping the middle men.
What was Gods logic?
That's the way God works I think.
He will provide as he always does, but I must provide as well now.
I know this...

AMEN! The same thing is also on my heart as I have given up on the 501c3 harlot beast incorporated church and am also looking for a righteous cause to give my time/money/resources to.

Don't have to really look far though. Jesus always spoke of giving to the poor, naked and hungry. There are plenty of them, especially these days.

[PaulaGem]

I never have been concerned what churchians think.
I would ask for suggestions on a charity but I think I also had the realization that I needed to keep this local.
Maybe even inside my own neighborhood.
I have my eyes open and I assume it will develop eventually.

Volunteering at a food bank or homeless shelter can be rewarding and enlightening.

[american.swan]

This I can answer easily. They all have varying amounts of light from God. Let me explain. This makes sense. Let's say I read a chapter in the Bible under stress, humbling myself before God, and pray a lot and God shows me some light. I then stand up from my knees with truth I never had before. Now instead of getting back on my knees...I run off and tell people what I learned which turns into a denomination, mixed with all my previous views. Very few, if any, members of said new denomination wants to get back on their knees and learn more humbly from the LORD. They instead spend their time defending their new limited views from attack from others who like this new denomination won't seek more light, but rather just spend all the time attacking and defending others views, too.

I quote myself and want to extend the thoughts.

If Christians would stay on their knees with an attitude of "Whatever you want Lord I'll believe and do, even if it alienates me from my family and friends," then they would live a life that would demand a serious choice by those who witness that life.

Christians today, generally, are too busy with jobs and cultural pressures and excitements to seek the Lord. Like Christ's parable of the treasure hidden in a field. In Jesus' day, people did hide treasure in fields from enemy armies and such. Decades later it might be found by some peasant. The peasant would sell all he had and the clothes off his back for the rights to the field so he could claim the treasure. Obviously, family and friends would think the man had lost his marbles to say the least. But after the reward was claimed and he was rich, no one questioned his devotion, then.

Seeking the Lord today, as this forum proves, is still a taboo. Sadly so called Christians, who I doubt are anything like Christ character, don't go far enough in seeking God's will. Their part-timers so to speak.

There's no wonder why this forum is full of this sort of arguing. Truth isn't being sought, only defended.

I have stated what I thought was right. I am not going to argue. My job isn't to defend my beliefs. God doesn't ask us to do that. God asks us to develop his character. I expect ridicule, just like the man who sells all he has for what seems like a worthless field.

[pacelli]

Seeking the Lord today, as this forum proves, is still a taboo. Sadly so called Christians, who I doubt are anything like Christ character, don't go far enough in seeking God's will. Their part-timers so to speak.

There's no wonder why this forum is full of this sort of arguing. Truth isn't being sought, only defended.


Bravo, well said !

[PaulaGem]

Maybe it was a person or group of people who made God in their image, and they attributed everything that happened to the name. God didn't like this, so he killed this population because of it. God didn't like this person, so he killed this person because of it. God didn't like the behavior being done between individuals, so he killed them. But who can say with complete knowing that it was a God who did this? Why would you create something just to eliminate it later while fully knowing beforehand that you would end up doing it? Though I don't refute the existence of a God or Higher Being, I sometimes question the God of the Old Testament.

From a theistic perspective, I would think a God would allow evil and suffering to stay in the world in order for humanity to learn what it's like to be a human. Being human encompasses much pain. And a death to a human is just the death of a body, not the soul itself, even though it can be a saddening ritual. So the soul goes elsewhere in order to rest or learn more. Maybe someone you know dies, and their death would help you learn how to appreciate someone much better and to have you help console others with the same experience.

Maybe the God of the Bible wasn't a God after all. It could've been some writers with an ego problem.. who knows. The Bible could be made of stories (both fiction and non-fiction) in order to teach us different lessons regardless if they're of true history or not. It's a great book, but its usage of various owners has spawned much disdain from individuals or groups that it condemns based upon their behavior or status and of what God says.

Maybe the God of the entire universe is a completely different concept than the one in the Bible that we can't even begin to recognize or comprehend, and if one has faith in such a Being (or however you think about it), then the more power to you.

Check out the gnostic concept of the demi-urge. It is basically that the God of the Jews is a false God masquerading as the real thing. This is a great example of Myth that stimulates deeper thought and approximates a reality that society may not be willing to deal with. It is also the reason why "gnostic" became a dirty word in the proto-orthodox and orthodox Christian church.