The Great Ethanol Scam

[IPSecure]

Not only is ethanol proving to be a dud as a fuel substitute but there is increasing evidence that it is destroying engines in large numbers...

More than one major transportation-based industry in America besides Detroit is on the ropes. For the fourth time in our history the ethanol industry has come undone and is quickly failing nationally. Of course it's one thing when Detroit collapsed with the economy; after all, that is a truly free-market enterprise and the economy hasn't been good. But the fact that the ethanol industry is going bankrupt, when the only reason we use this additive is a massive government mandate, is outrageous at best.

Then again, the ethanol lobby and refiners have a solution to ethanol's failure in America: Hire retired General Wesley Clark as your point man and lobby the government to increase the amount of ethanol in our fuel to 15%. The problems with that proposition are real—unlike ethanol's benefits.

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm

[Mosheh Thezion]

I appose food for fuel.... because it is not needed.

I promote trash for fuel.... and america has lots of trash.

and the technology already exists... its called thermal cracking.

it takes organic trash... and reacts it with water at 5000 psi and high tempurtures, to make powdered carbon, methane, and desiel fuel.

it would empty land fills.. and end ground contamination, and provide tons of desiel fuel.

then we need only deal with the micro-partical polution, which can be done.


it is the solution to food for fuel, which is just wrong.

(THIS WOULD ALLOW... feces... to be made into fuel... i.e... first its food.. then its feces.. and then... it can also be fuel... so we get the food and the fuel.... its win win.)

-MEMAT

[Objectivist]

I always laughed when people go on about ethanol, it's like putting sawdust in your gas tank. Obama could have his fuel milage standards if all Ethanol an additives were removed from gasoline. 87 Octane is all we really need.
http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm

[Objectivist]

Ethanol takes more energy to produce than it gives back in return and reduces the number of miles you can travel on a gallon of gas when used as an additive. EPA and DOE have reports that show fuel milage drops of 30-40% depending on the mix.

[Icymudpuppy]

Although I do not like the idea of commercially produced ethanol. I like the fact that it is easy to produce at home. Were you planning to eat all those potato peelings? Throw them in a fermenter, Freeze jack them to 50% alc by vol, then solar distill to 95% and you can burn it in your car.

The problem with ethanol in most vehicles is that it burns hotter than gasoline, and most engines aren't designed to take the heat. Especially if the engine block contains aluminum. Modern Chainsaws and motorcycles in particular are weak for ethanol.

If you have an older vehicle (pre 1980) and adjust your carberator to maximize the efficiency of the fuel-air ratio for ethanol instead of gasoline, you will have no trouble running ethanol between 87-99% mixed with gasoline, or even water. Indeed, in 1925, Henry Ford proposed making all his Model T's Ethanol capable since anyone could make their own fuel at home. Prohibition is what prevented him.

I'm already running three of my vehicles on "trash". When my four partner restaurants can no longer use their fryer oil because it has become too dirty, they put it out by the dumpster for me to pick up, filter, and run in my diesel truck, car, and tractor.

In 1911, Rudolf diesel announced to the world that his engine would be a boon for farmers who would be able to make their own fuel from vegetable oils.

In 1914, he was pushed off a ferry into the English channel and drowned, and all his patents were quickly purchased by STANDARD OIL AND GAS.

Hemp produces more vegetable oil per acre per year than any other plant on earth.

I wonder who is really behind Prohibition, the Drug war, and any other attempt to slow alternative energy. After all, wind power is something that reached it's technoligical peak in the 1920's when Howard Hughes' research perfected propeller aerodynamic design. Why hasn't wind been a primary power generation tool for the last 80 years? My family's depression era farm in N. Dakota was powered by Wind until it got hooked up to the grid. I wish I could go back and tell my great-grandparents not to do it.

My parents now live in Las Cruces NM, which gets 355 days of sunshine a year, and has constant winds of 12-18 mph. Las Cruces is powered by a petroleum diesel generator power plant.

Makes me sick. Centralization and Control of Energy. I choose to make my own. Ethanol is a tool I can use.

[slacker921]

The scam was convincing everyone that "Ethanol is produced from corn". Like Icymudpuppy says, it can be made at home from lots of sources. There are millions of cars and trucks on the road now that can run 85% ethanol with no problems.. and yet they don't because our government subsidized using a food source for fuel. You can use wood chips, algae, saw grass, even the bi-products from making beer (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/41330/178/) to make ethanol.

But.. the OP is also correct ... adding higher levels of ethanol to gasoline for use in normal cars is not a good thing. If there's an error in the mixture and a regular car gets high levels of ethanol then it will damage the fuel pump, hoses, gaskets, etc.

[Spook]

Just goes to show the utter ignorance of politicians and most Americans about the physics and engineering. Ethanol, per unit volume compared to gasoline, has a lower amount of energy contained within it. Thus, more volume is required to make the same power as a smaller volume of gasoline.

The new CAFE standards are also bollocks. Every junior auto engineer learns the basics of combustion engineering, that performance, economy, and emissions is all a balancing act and the only constant is the energy in the fuel. Increase the CR and the economy and performance will increase as a result of more heat to better combust the fuel, but that extra heat also provides the environment for the formation of more NOx emissions. Conversely, lower the CR and performance and economy suffers while emissions will clear up. They are inversely related. If one increases the other HAS to decrease in most all cases. Can't have your cake and eat it too...Total rubbish!!

[Objectivist]

Although I do not like the idea of commercially produced ethanol. I like the fact that it is easy to produce at home. Were you planning to eat all those potato peelings? Throw them in a fermenter, Freeze jack them to 50% alc by vol, then solar distill to 95% and you can burn it in your car.

The problem with ethanol in most vehicles is that it burns hotter than gasoline, and most engines aren't designed to take the heat. Especially if the engine block contains aluminum. Modern Chainsaws and motorcycles in particular are weak for ethanol.

If you have an older vehicle (pre 1980) and adjust your carberator to maximize the efficiency of the fuel-air ratio for ethanol instead of gasoline, you will have no trouble running ethanol between 87-99% mixed with gasoline, or even water. Indeed, in 1925, Henry Ford proposed making all his Model T's Ethanol capable since anyone could make their own fuel at home. Prohibition is what prevented him.

I'm already running three of my vehicles on "trash". When my four partner restaurants can no longer use their fryer oil because it has become too dirty, they put it out by the dumpster for me to pick up, filter, and run in my diesel truck, car, and tractor.

In 1911, Rudolf diesel announced to the world that his engine would be a boon for farmers who would be able to make their own fuel from vegetable oils.

In 1914, he was pushed off a ferry into the English channel and drowned, and all his patents were quickly purchased by STANDARD OIL AND GAS.

Hemp produces more vegetable oil per acre per year than any other plant on earth.

I wonder who is really behind Prohibition, the Drug war, and any other attempt to slow alternative energy. After all, wind power is something that reached it's technoligical peak in the 1920's when Howard Hughes' research perfected propeller aerodynamic design. Why hasn't wind been a primary power generation tool for the last 80 years? My family's depression era farm in N. Dakota was powered by Wind until it got hooked up to the grid. I wish I could go back and tell my great-grandparents not to do it.

My parents now live in Las Cruces NM, which gets 355 days of sunshine a year, and has constant winds of 12-18 mph. Las Cruces is powered by a petroleum diesel generator power plant.

Makes me sick. Centralization and Control of Energy. I choose to make my own. Ethanol is a tool I can use.

Not sure where you get your numbers but Ethanol is rated at about 77,000 BTUs per gallon and regular Gasoline is 122,000 BTUs per gallon. Ethanol is essentially Alcohol.

[Kludge]

Edit: whoops, I'm supposed to be "On Vacation".

[Kotin]

two words: Hemp Ethanol.

[Objectivist]

Problem with wind is well known and Europe is facing problems because of wind power. It needs to blow a minimum of 13 mph to start a turbine and it's maximum output is at 33 mph. Does it blow at a consistent 33 mph where you live? No and it's not windy enough to sustain an industrial nation 24/7, so wind is nice as an addition to the base load but not enough to account for our needs long term on a massive scale. Just because Vestas is building 7 megawatt capacity turbines doesn't mean the put out 7 megawatts 24/7.

Solar has a duty rating of about 20-25% so that too is limited and I like watching tv at night.

[malkusm]

It takes 13 pounds of corn to produce one gallon of ethanol. Producing ethanol from corn has permanently raised the price of the grain twofold since the mandates went into effect in 2005; furthermore, the number of ethanol production facilities is set to double within the next 5 years (due to plants still in production).

The situation is set to get much worse before it gets better.

[Icymudpuppy]

Not sure where you get your numbers but Ethanol is rated at about 77,000 BTUs per gallon and regular Gasoline is 122,000 BTUs per gallon. Ethanol is essentially Alcohol.

Which numbers? The burning hotter?

http://www.drivingethanol.org/motorsports/racing_fuel_characteristics.aspx

If you take apart an engine that breaks down from ethanol use, it will have the same damage as an engine which overheats.

As for the percentages of combustibility. That is my personal experience. Water more readily blends with Ethanol (aka Ethyl Alcohol aka grain alcohol, aka moonshine aka spirits) than with gasoline, so you can have more water in an ethanol blend than with pure gasoline.

HEAT brand water remover for your car doesn't actually remove the water, it just mixes it with an alcohol (methanol or isopropanol) to allow the water to mix with the gasoline or diesel.

The percentages of Alcohol content by volume come from my own jacking and distilling of homemade liquor.

[Icymudpuppy]

Solar has a duty rating of about 20-25% so that too is limited and I like watching tv at night.

You're still thinking too "Central Grid"

with four 30' wind towers at each corner of a house with 4 foot props, a solar array on your roof, and a battery array to store the electricity so you can watch your TV at night, I can guarantee you that any single family home in America can be 100% self sufficient.

[Objectivist]

You're still thinking too "Central Grid"

with four 30' wind towers at each corner of a house with 4 foot props, a solar array on your roof, and a battery array to store the electricity so you can watch your TV at night, I can guarantee you that any single family home in America can be 100% self sufficient.

YOu can't run a Paper Factory that requires 300 megawatts to operate and the system is centrally controlled for a reason. I'd have to spend and afternoon explaining the grid and what fluctuations in it can do, or do wrong.

I have nothing against wind and solar but it's not enough to maintain the requirements and it never will be because of the electrical grid infrastructure. How many batteries are you using? 24 volt? Then they put off gasses that are hazardous to your health and those materials need to be mined from the earth.

For a comparison on a large scale building a 1000 megawatt nuclear reactor, power facility would cost about 6 billion, the same energy coming from solar would run 10.65 billion and only be at peak for a small portion of the time, while a reactor is 24/7. To be fair to nuclear, the size of reactors is up to and above 1500 megawatts, so solar loses hands down. But I like the idea of putting them on your house or business if you can afford it, it shouldn't be subsidized by taxpayers.

On wind speed, the average here in my county is 8 mph.

[Terces]

Not only is ethanol proving to be a dud as a fuel substitute but there is increasing evidence that it is destroying engines in large numbers...

More than one major transportation-based industry in America besides Detroit is on the ropes. For the fourth time in our history the ethanol industry has come undone and is quickly failing nationally. Of course it's one thing when Detroit collapsed with the economy; after all, that is a truly free-market enterprise and the economy hasn't been good. But the fact that the ethanol industry is going bankrupt, when the only reason we use this additive is a massive government mandate, is outrageous at best.

Then again, the ethanol lobby and refiners have a solution to ethanol's failure in America: Hire retired General Wesley Clark as your point man and lobby the government to increase the amount of ethanol in our fuel to 15%. The problems with that proposition are real—unlike ethanol's benefits.

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm

Ethanol is a subsidized scam... unfortunately I live in Iowa and the prices of petro with ethanol is much cheaper than without. I got into the habit of "paying for less," but I should take my lesson of not patronizing Wal-Mart and realize "you get what you pay for." If I can remember (habits), I'll NOT be purchasing ethanol at the next pump.