Mancow Muller, gets waterboarded and says "it is absolutely torture"

[paulitics]

Says it was " instantaneous and horrific" "No way in hell would I have done that if I known it was that bad".

Here is the video.
http://www.wlsam.com/Article.asp?id=1323491&spid=28931

I commend Mancow for having the balls to get tortured and admit he was wrong when he thought it would just be some water splashed in the face.

It's amazing that some people buy the irrational propaganda that waterboarding is no big deal, when we prosecuted the Japanese for war crimes for the exact same thing. Sometimes it takes a real life experience (a bad one) to humble yourself and say you were wrong.

[Kludge]

I have difficulty believing Mancow truly ever believed waterboarding was no big deal...

He's been calling himself a libertarian for years. He's had the time to plan something like this out.

[Anti Federalist]

And he knew what was going on and knew it could be stopped at any time.

No, it's not torture.:mad:

Guess Shamity wasn't man enough to step up.

YouTube - Mancow Waterboarded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoYxfmGA8Ak)

[phill4paul]

Nice find thanks. God, this government shames me. Surely there are not a majority of people that could stoop so low as to call this "enhanced interrogation". Give me a f*cking break.
If a government ever did this to me, bet your dollar that if I were ever released I would give lessons in "blowback."

[phill4paul]

This gave me a great idea though.

What if you were to set up downtown. A table, towel and pitchers of water.

Signs saying "I dare you to prove this is not torture."

Consent forms. I'd have to talk to a lawyer friend about this one, but it seems to me if you have a video set up and asked for their consent and got it you should be o.k.

Hmmm...gonna have to talk with some subversive friends about this one.:)

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

And he knew what was going on and knew it could be stopped at any time.

No, it's not torture.:mad:

Guess Shamity wasn't man enough to step up.

And thats the more mild form of waterboarding. The really especially harsh kind, they stick a hose into your mouth and partly down your throat. Thats where they can fuck up and drown you on 'accident'.

[LibertyEagle]

It looks like he had his mouth closed during the deal.

[TheConstitutionLives]

This gave me a great idea though.

What if you were to set up downtown. A table, towel and pitchers of water.

Signs saying "I dare you to prove this is not torture."

Consent forms. I'd have to talk to a lawyer friend about this one, but it seems to me if you have a video set up and asked for their consent and got it you should be o.k.

Hmmm...gonna have to talk with some subversive friends about this one.:)

I think that's a fantastic idea!

[ClayTrainor]

This gave me a great idea though.

What if you were to set up downtown. A table, towel and pitchers of water.

Signs saying "I dare you to prove this is not torture."

Consent forms. I'd have to talk to a lawyer friend about this one, but it seems to me if you have a video set up and asked for their consent and got it you should be o.k.

Hmmm...gonna have to talk with some subversive friends about this one.:)

That's an amazing idea, i think!

[silverhawks]

I don't suppose anyone has cottoned on to the fact that acts of torture are now on Youtube?

[Danke]

Hitting someone in the shins who has the means of relief, escape or retaliations is not torture, conversely if I'm strapped down and it is over a long period of time and confinement, etc...

You hit me, I pull out gun and shoot you. Was that hit "torture"?

See what they did to this guy with your money:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2124690#post2124690

[silverhawks]

That's an amazing idea, i think!

So you, knowing its torture, are going to torture other people so you can prove its torture?

[silverhawks]

Hitting someone in the shins who has the means of relief, escape or retaliations is not torture, conversely if I'm strapped down and it is over a long period of time and confinement, etc...

You hit me, I pull out gun and shoot you. Was that hit "torture"?

See what they did to this guy with your money:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2124690#post2124690

The point I'm trying to make is this one.

Can you see some kids doing this to their buds for a joke, or a bet, or a dare?

All it takes is ONE copycat, and the government has justification for crack downs. It hasn't released video to the internet of waterboarding, after all.

[ClayTrainor]

So you, knowing its torture, are going to torture other people so you can prove its torture?

Only if they volunteer to try and prove it's not torture, by accepting the terms.

I would never force someone into that situation.

[silverhawks]

Only if they volunteer to try and prove it's not torture, by accepting the terms.

I would never force someone into that situation.

Dude. You're still TORTURING PEOPLE. To prove a point.

[ClayTrainor]

Dude. You're still TORTURING PEOPLE. To prove a point.

Only if they literally ask for it, and of course they can stop it whenever they want. Ultimately, i highly doubt most pussy-ass pro-torture people would take the challenge and that in itself, would prove a point.

Mancow is a great representation of what i'm talking about here. He volunteered, for perspective.

Why aren't you speaking out against this video?

[silverhawks]

Only if they literally ask for it, and of course they can stop it whenever they want. Ultimately, i highly doubt most pussy-ass pro-torture people would take the challenge.

Mancow is a great representation of what i'm talking about here. He volunteered, for perspective.

Why aren't you speaking out against this video?

Have you even read the thread? Read back up, I AM speaking out against this video.

I'm not interested in people volunteering to be tortured to "gain perspective", I'm concerned that there are people here that would knowingly torture people in order to prove their point. Why the hell are you trying to prove its torture in the first place, if you're not trying to prove its WRONG? If you're not trying to prove that ANYONE who does it or approves of it needs to be prosecuted?

[ClayTrainor]

Have you even read the thread? Read back up, I AM speaking out against this video.


My bad, didn't notice, i must have overlooked it.



I'm not interested in people volunteering to be tortured to "gain perspective", I'm concerned that there are people here that would knowingly torture people in order to prove their point.

I think people like ManCow are proving a great point, to the brainwashed public that still thinks torture is a good idea. They are putting it into perspective, so it doesn't seem like some middle-eastern fantasy.



Why the hell are you trying to prove its torture in the first place, if you're not trying to prove its WRONG?

Yes torture is wrong, obviously. I think ManCow does a great job of proving why that is so. If this was involuntary, i would demand prosecution of all men involved, with this case.



If you're not trying to prove that ANYONE who does it or approves of it needs to be prosecuted?

If there was proof that the men in Guantanamo VOLUNTEERED to be tortured, than I would have no problems. Obviously that proof does not exist, and these men are being waterboarded against their will.

If i asked someone to punch me in the face, and signed a waiver... and then they do it, should they be charged with assault? nope, not a chance.

[Brian4Liberty]

Christopher Hitchens was also waterboarded:

YouTube - Watch Christopher Hitchens Get Waterboarded (VANITY FAIR) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58)

[ClayTrainor]

So did an editor from playboy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/20/playboy-journo-bets-he-ca_n_189280.html (video at this link)

[0zzy]

Have you even read the thread? Read back up, I AM speaking out against this video.

I'm not interested in people volunteering to be tortured to "gain perspective", I'm concerned that there are people here that would knowingly torture people in order to prove their point. Why the hell are you trying to prove its torture in the first place, if you're not trying to prove its WRONG? If you're not trying to prove that ANYONE who does it or approves of it needs to be prosecuted?

How about those videos of kids jumping off trucks into bushes and breaking their wrist? That could be a form of torture! OH NOES! But it was voluntary, stupid kids.

This is a voluntary, stupid guy. The reason it isn't off youtube is because it's a psychological and internal type of torture that doesn't show people having their fingers cut off or bleeding.

[0zzy]

btw, that was not at all how they do waterboarding. That was just poring water over someone's face. dubya tee eff.

[Sandman33]

btw, that was not at all how they do waterboarding. That was just poring water over someone's face. dubya tee eff.

Yes that seemed VERY weak. Like after 5 seconds he wanted his first breath and just got up...lame.

Let Jesse Venture do it to him:D

[Objectivist]

Says it was " instantaneous and horrific" "No way in hell would I have done that if I known it was that bad".

Here is the video.
http://www.wlsam.com/Article.asp?id=1323491&spid=28931

I commend Mancow for having the balls to get tortured and admit he was wrong when he thought it would just be some water splashed in the face.

It's amazing that some people buy the irrational propaganda that waterboarding is no big deal, when we prosecuted the Japanese for war crimes for the exact same thing. Sometimes it takes a real life experience (a bad one) to humble yourself and say you were wrong.

What the Japanese did is different than what happens today. They would force water into you(down your throat) and fill you up so to speak.

[LibForestPaul]

An act alone is not torture

i.e. if I punch you in the face is that torture?
if i lock you in a cellar, and come downstairs every hour and punch you in the face, until you tell me where you hide your PM, is that assault?

[LATruth]

An act alone is not torture

i.e. if I punch you in the face is that torture?
if i lock you in a cellar, and come downstairs every hour and punch you in the face, until you tell me where you hide your PM, is that assault?

Was Mancow "tortured"? No. Did he get a sample of waterboarding? Maybe.

Have him endure the process for hours on end, without a "tap out clause", for days. That's torture.

[Objectivist]

As I said on then air tonight, I'd rather our troops only have to go thru water boarding than the brutality of a beheading or beaten with a hammer. One lets you go away with a new respect for water, the other leaves you dead.

I still say my, stick a curling iron up their ass technique works better.

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

As I said on then air tonight, I'd rather our troops only have to go thru water boarding than the brutality of a beheading or beaten with a hammer. One lets you go away with a new respect for water, the other leaves you dead.

I still say my, stick a curling iron up their ass technique works better.

Or better yet, how about we stop all of these stupid ass unconstitutional wars/invasions/occupations and actually mind our own business long enough that "enhanced interrogation" is no longer even needed. If we were not there, our troops and civillians in harms way would not be captured and beheaded. If we had never involved ourselves in the affairs of others to begin with than odds are that we would not have an Al-Qaeda problem today and we would not be pouring water on anyone except for happy kids at your nearest water park. The whole business is just stupidity on a grand scale.

I remember after 9/11 when I was suckered in to a blind patriotic fervor, I enlisted in the Army. My assigned job was to work as a member of military intelligence (specifically an interrogator). I had to do a lot of soul searching and after long hours of prayer and talking with my Wife, I came to the conclusion that I could not partake in the torture of my fellow man no matter what he did. Being faced with the very real possibility that I would be called upon to torture in the name of Uncle Sam gave me a whole new perspective about the events of 9/11, the issue of torture, warfare and how far we had drifted. In some ways, my government asking me to torture others in their name is responsible for my being a part of this movement and was one of the top reasons for why I walked away from the military. So you may think that we should shove irons up people's asses but I would like to see your reaction when a government tells you that you will actually have to do it while you watch a member of your species cry out in pain and suffer before your eyes. Torture is not honorable or glorious or even neccesary. Torture in the name of peace is an oxymoron of the highest degree and it simply reflects how far we as a society have fallen.

[Objectivist]

Or better yet, how about we stop all of these stupid ass unconstitutional wars/invasions/occupations and actually mind our own business long enough that "enhanced interrogation" is no longer even needed. If we were not there, our troops and civillians in harms way would not be captured and beheaded. If we had never involved ourselves in the affairs of others to begin with than odds are that we would not have an Al-Qaeda problem today and we would not be pouring water on anyone except for happy kids at your nearest water park. The whole business is just stupidity on a grand scale.

I remember after 9/11 when I was suckered in to a blind patriotic fervor, I enlisted in the Army. My assigned job was to work as a member of military intelligence (specifically an interrogator). I had to do a lot of soul searching and after long hours of prayer and talking with my Wife, I came to the conclusion that I could not partake in the torture of my fellow man no matter what he did. Being faced with the very real possibility that I would be called upon to torture in the name of Uncle Sam gave me a whole new perspective about the events of 9/11, the issue of torture, warfare and how far we had drifted. In some ways, my government asking me to torture others in their name is responsible for my being a part of this movement and was one of the top reasons for why I walked away from the military. So you may think that we should shove irons up people's asses but I would like to see your reaction when a government tells you that you will actually have to do it while you watch a member of your species cry out in pain and suffer before your eyes. Torture is not honorable or glorious or even neccesary. Torture in the name of peace is an oxymoron of the highest degree and it simply reflects how far we as a society have fallen.

I mostly agree with you but have one question and it doesn't relate directly to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Say a group of well trained individuals from a foreign nation acted against us by a crude nuclear weapon being placed in one of our port cities. Now we can trace the materials back to their origin so we know it's a particular country. Do we strike? Or stay home? WHat if we catch the infiltrators with evidence of the act they committed? SAY on video or something? We would suspect a second device or more and millions of Americans could or would die, would you pour water on their head to find out what they knew?

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

I mostly agree with you but have one question and it doesn't relate directly to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Say a group of well trained individuals from a foreign nation acted against us by a crude nuclear weapon being placed in one of our port cities. Now we can trace the materials back to their origin so we know it's a particular country. Do we strike? Or stay home? WHat if we catch the infiltrators with evidence of the act they committed? SAY on video or something? We would suspect a second device or more and millions of Americans could or would die, would you pour water on their head to find out what they knew?

I have seen this argument used a lot. If another nation had directly placed or had sponsored placing WMD's in our territory and there was no question that they were responsible than you can bet your bottom dollar that I would retalliate with full force. HOWEVER, If I knew this beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would ask Congress to declare war before I acted at all.

In regards to torture, no I would not condone the use of torture to acquire information even under those circumstances. There is no excuse at all (in my humble opinion) to torture another human being. Certainly we would be in a pickle but once information leaked out that we were torturing we would be in an even larger one. How many terrorists do you think have been created by the goings on at Guantanamo? We have done nothing to show the world that we have class and dignity but we have managed to make even more of the world hate us. They do not "hare us for our freedoms". They hate us because we act like the big bully on the block who not only steals your bike but then taunts you about it daily. If we expect to ever repair the damage that has been done by idiots in chief, past and present, than we need to start acting like the freedom loving, courageous yet compassionate, free trading, gentle giant that we so often claim to be.

[Objectivist]

I have seen this argument used a lot. If another nation had directly placed or had sponsored placing WMD's in our territory and there was no question that they were responsible than you can bet your bottom dollar that I would retalliate with full force. HOWEVER, If I knew this beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would ask Congress to declare war before I acted at all.

In regards to torture, no I would not condone the use of torture to acquire information even under those circumstances. There is no excuse at all (in my humble opinion) to torture another human being. Certainly we would be in a pickle but once information leaked out that we were torturing we would be in an even larger one. How many terrorists do you think have been created by the goings on at Guantanamo? We have done nothing to show the world that we have class and dignity but we have managed to make even more of the world hate us. They do not "hare us for our freedoms". They hate us because we act like the big bully on the block who not only steals your bike but then taunts you about it daily. If we expect to ever repair the damage that has been done by idiots in chief, past and present, than we need to start acting like the freedom loving, courageous yet compassionate, free trading, gentle giant that we so often claim to be.

Actually most hate us because of their own failings as human beings as we as a nation have done more for the rest of the world than any other nation in history. We are the humanitarians of the world.

And Congress gave the power to the POTUS to go to war, War Powers Resolution. Then I don't recall many in Congress that were against sending our blood and treasure to Iraq and Afghanistan. That point hasn't changed with a shift in power either.
YouTube - Democrats on Iraq + WMD's (Weapons of Mass Destruction) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwqh4wQPoQk)

[Objectivist]

On your position in regards to playing nice-nice with people that would do us harm, you deserve the death they deal you if you are not willing to do whatever it takes to win against them. If pouring water on their head gave me details that could save my fellow Americans, give me the hose and be happy I don't give them an enema with it. Our enemies don't understand weakness the way you seem to.

[Bruno]

Or better yet, how about we stop all of these stupid ass unconstitutional wars/invasions/occupations and actually mind our own business long enough that "enhanced interrogation" is no longer even needed. If we were not there, our troops and civillians in harms way would not be captured and beheaded. If we had never involved ourselves in the affairs of others to begin with than odds are that we would not have an Al-Qaeda problem today and we would not be pouring water on anyone except for happy kids at your nearest water park. The whole business is just stupidity on a grand scale.

I remember after 9/11 when I was suckered in to a blind patriotic fervor, I enlisted in the Army. My assigned job was to work as a member of military intelligence (specifically an interrogator). I had to do a lot of soul searching and after long hours of prayer and talking with my Wife, I came to the conclusion that I could not partake in the torture of my fellow man no matter what he did. Being faced with the very real possibility that I would be called upon to torture in the name of Uncle Sam gave me a whole new perspective about the events of 9/11, the issue of torture, warfare and how far we had drifted. In some ways, my government asking me to torture others in their name is responsible for my being a part of this movement and was one of the top reasons for why I walked away from the military. So you may think that we should shove irons up people's asses but I would like to see your reaction when a government tells you that you will actually have to do it while you watch a member of your species cry out in pain and suffer before your eyes. Torture is not honorable or glorious or even neccesary. Torture in the name of peace is an oxymoron of the highest degree and it simply reflects how far we as a society have fallen.

Very commendable. Your conscience will thank you for decades for your decision.

[LibForestPaul]

I mostly agree with you but have one question and it doesn't relate directly to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Say a group of well trained individuals from a foreign nation acted against us by a crude nuclear weapon being placed in one of our port cities. Now we can trace the materials back to their origin so we know it's a particular country. Do we strike? Or stay home? WHat if we catch the infiltrators with evidence of the act they committed? SAY on video or something? We would suspect a second device or more and millions of Americans could or would die, would you pour water on their head to find out what they knew?

Your failure is immense
WHat if we catch the infiltrators with evidence of the act they committed? Prove it.
SAY on video or something? People don't lie and boast.
so we know it's a particular country? How many times will this lie be spread. Yellow cake, yellow cake, over here...
would you pour water on their head to find out what they knew? Or stick curling irons up their childrens asses.

Until our own house is cleaned, nothing is true, nothing is as it seems. All that you see is an illusion. Until OUR own military, OUR own government, OUR own cartels, are brought under control, by systematic dismantling (cash starvation), such questions are meaningless.

[Anti Federalist]

On your position in regards to playing nice-nice with people that would do us harm, you deserve the death they deal you if you are not willing to do whatever it takes to win against them. If pouring water on their head gave me details that could save my fellow Americans, give me the hose and be happy I don't give them an enema with it. Our enemies don't understand weakness the way you seem to.

Wow. Cheney talking point memo #2-A-99

Torturing people is not "playing nice nice".

Objectively, it is a piss poor way of obtaining information. Torture a man long enough and he'll confess to anything, much like Khalid Sheik Mohamed confessing to plotting to blow up buildings in Singapore that had even been built at the time of his capture.

Not willing to do whatever it takes to win, huh?

Well, how about a race specific bio weapon? Theater wide nuclear carpet bombing? That would make you a "winner" wouldn't it now?

This is the same bullshit argument Obama used the other day to lay out indefinite detentions. It's the same argument cops use when tasing a man to death or beating him into a coma. It's the same argument Lindsey Graham was using against Ron Paul. We've got to win at any costs, consequences, principles or law be damned.

It is an argument that fails on a massive scale.

Armies of soldiers and cops unleashed upon the people of America and the world, with only a mandate to "win", with no rules of engagement, is nothing but an army of darkness and murder, a multi million man goon squad.

[South Park Fan]

On your position in regards to playing nice-nice with people that would do us harm, you deserve the death they deal you if you are not willing to do whatever it takes to win against them. If pouring water on their head gave me details that could save my fellow Americans, give me the hose and be happy I don't give them an enema with it. Our enemies don't understand weakness the way you seem to.

However, much more likely is that they will give you whatever information you want to hear, regardless of whether it is true. Conversely, I would say that YOU deserve the death terrorists deal you if you are willing to use tactics that create more of them. If you had a family member being tortured by the U.S. government, wouldn't you want to get revenge?

[klamath]

Let this thread be a lesson to the people that think we could ever have a violent, pure revolution for freedom and have it come out with any more freedom than we have now. You would be standing shoulder to shoulder with men that would be torturing your fellow Americans because they were labeled as antifreedom.

[angelatc]

It looks like he had his mouth closed during the deal.

I am not an expert, but I don't think that matters. The way I understand it, which could be absolutely wrong, is that it is a psychological response. Somebody here said it is possible to do a "waterboarding lite" experiment on yourself using a washcloth and the shower.

American exceptional ism? Bah. We're as horrid as all the rest.

[silverhawks]

On your position in regards to playing nice-nice with people that would do us harm, you deserve the death they deal you if you are not willing to do whatever it takes to win against them. If pouring water on their head gave me details that could save my fellow Americans, give me the hose and be happy I don't give them an enema with it. Our enemies don't understand weakness the way you seem to.

The torture memos certainly weren't released to expose Bush - since Obama and the Dems obviously have NO intention of pursuing prosecution. If they were even halfway serious, they'd have impeached Bush while he was in office.

So what reason does that leave? Perhaps to manufacture public consent and approval for torture to be used on detainees of the US government, and "enemies of the people"? All "in the name of national security" of course, since that affects every American!

Give some thought as to who currently shaped policy says those detainees are going to be in the near future.

You sure you don't want anyone speaking out against torture?

[Objectivist]

Your failure is immense
WHat if we catch the infiltrators with evidence of the act they committed? Prove it.
SAY on video or something? People don't lie and boast.
so we know it's a particular country? How many times will this lie be spread. Yellow cake, yellow cake, over here...
would you pour water on their head to find out what they knew? Or stick curling irons up their childrens asses.

Until our own house is cleaned, nothing is true, nothing is as it seems. All that you see is an illusion. Until OUR own military, OUR own government, OUR own cartels, are brought under control, by systematic dismantling (cash starvation), such questions are meaningless.

What the hell are you rambling about?

[Objectivist]

Wow. Cheney talking point memo #2-A-99

Torturing people is not "playing nice nice".

Objectively, it is a piss poor way of obtaining information. Torture a man long enough and he'll confess to anything, much like Khalid Sheik Mohamed confessing to plotting to blow up buildings in Singapore that had even been built at the time of his capture.

Not willing to do whatever it takes to win, huh?

Well, how about a race specific bio weapon? Theater wide nuclear carpet bombing? That would make you a "winner" wouldn't it now?

This is the same bullshit argument Obama used the other day to lay out indefinite detentions. It's the same argument cops use when tasing a man to death or beating him into a coma. It's the same argument Lindsey Graham was using against Ron Paul. We've got to win at any costs, consequences, principles or law be damned.

It is an argument that fails on a massive scale.

Armies of soldiers and cops unleashed upon the people of America and the world, with only a mandate to "win", with no rules of engagement, is nothing but an army of darkness and murder, a multi million man goon squad.


You need to edit the first paragraph.
Then nobody here has answered my question yet and the enemy I presented is a fictitious one, not one that we currently face. That one is a product of piss poor foreign relations and the intrusion into drug dealing in far away places. We've been paying off Afghanistan for decades, I found some stories from the 60s. Then they didn't attack us on 9/11, a bunch of Saudis did. But back to the point of my specific question. If you had evidence that a group had placed a nuclear device and captured one or more of that group what would you be willing to do to save your family? Sounds like some here would let them die, not me.

See, I want my enemies to fear me in all arenas and think three times before attempting to do my people harm. Our enemies understand one thing and that is to be brutal and do as much damage as possible to us and I'm not willing to let that happen. War is about destroying your enemies at all costs and if pouring water on their head gains me an edge then I win. And didn't Mancow wuss get up and walk away from his little ordeal? Yes he did.

[Objectivist]

However, much more likely is that they will give you whatever information you want to hear, regardless of whether it is true. Conversely, I would say that YOU deserve the death terrorists deal you if you are willing to use tactics that create more of them. If you had a family member being tortured by the U.S. government, wouldn't you want to get revenge?

Some of these people hate us because we helped improve their way of life, so they can stick up their ass and go back to riding camels in the desert, stacking rocks in basic geometric shapes and cutting each others heads off.

[Objectivist]

The torture memos certainly weren't released to expose Bush - since Obama and the Dems obviously have NO intention of pursuing prosecution. If they were even halfway serious, they'd have impeached Bush while he was in office.

So what reason does that leave? Perhaps to manufacture public consent and approval for torture to be used on detainees of the US government, and "enemies of the people"? All "in the name of national security" of course, since that affects every American!

Give some thought as to who currently shaped policy says those detainees are going to be in the near future.

You sure you don't want anyone speaking out against torture?

First of all I don't consider water boarding torture anymore than being incarcerated in a 5x10 cell for an extended period of time. Being incarcerated leaves more scars on your mind than being splashed in the face for a short period of time.

Google "clinton administration torture rendition"

On Mancow what basis does he make the assertion that water boarding is torture? Compared to marriage? Did he have an interlude with Mistress Mandy? Is what she does torture?
YouTube - Mistress Mandy gets blocked. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjvMoZR7lXY)

[NoMoreFed]

Ok there was one guy they tortured 6 times a day for a month... I think that is a little bit different than what Mancow did...

Also, from: http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/18/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-was-waterboarded-183-times-in-one-month/

The IG Report noted that in some cases the waterboard was used with far greater frequency than initially indicated, see IG Report at 5, 44, 46, 103-04, and also that it was used in a different manner. See id. at 37 ("[T]he waterboard technique ... was different from the technique described in the DoJ opinion and used in the SERE training. The difference was the manner in which the detainee's breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject's airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency Interrogator ... applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose. One of the psychologists/interrogators acknowledged that the Agency's use of the technique is different from that used in SERE training because it is "for real--and is more poignant and convincing.")

[NoMoreFed]

Oh and that is after they slice his (KSM's) genitals in Morocco...

[Danke]

First of all I don't consider water boarding torture anymore than being incarcerated in a 5x10 cell for an extended period of time. Being incarcerated leaves more scars on your mind than being splashed in the face for a short period of time.

Google "clinton administration torture rendition"

On Mancow what basis does he make the assertion that water boarding is torture?


Why don't you volunteer to be water boarded over a period of time and then report back what is and what is not torture.

I have been through the military SERE training in two theaters and experienced choking where I thought I wasn't going to take another breath. It does have a lasting effect.

[Objectivist]

Why don't you volunteer to be water boarded over a period of time and then report back what is and what is not torture.

I have been through the military SERE training in two theaters and experienced choking where I thought I wasn't going to take another breath. It does have a lasting effect.

I've been forced under and near drowned twice. Then being underwater is another world for me, I have yet to get my heart rate lower then being submerged in the ocean.

[Danke]

I've been forced under and near drowned twice. Then being underwater is another world for me, I have yet to get my heart rate lower then being submerged in the ocean.

You surf? Or was a foreign national doing that under incarceration?

[Objectivist]

You surf? Or was a foreign national doing that under incarceration?

SERE didn't start using foreign nationals did they? The BS of we need to be better than them is just that, BS. We need to be better in the realm of tactics and weaponry to assure their demise, end of story.

[Danke]

SERE didn't start using foreign nationals did they? The BS of we need to be better than them is just that, BS. We need to be better in the realm of tactics and weaponry to assure their demise, end of story.

Can't answer the question?

[Objectivist]

Can't answer the question?

I'm trying to figure out how it pertains to destroying our enemies. And at the time I wasn't asking to see the guys passport.

[Danke]

I'm trying to figure out how it pertains to destroying our enemies. And at the time I wasn't asking to see the guys passport.

So someone has tried to submerge you violently in water twice, nearly killing you, and you don't know who did it?

[Objectivist]

So someone has tried to submerge you violently in water twice, nearly killing you, and you don't know who did it?

One I do, one I don't.

The one I do was when I was 15 and I broke his nose with the heel of my foot.

[Danke]

One I do, one I don't.

The one I do was when I was 15 and I broke his nose with the heel of my foot.

Ah yes, kids playing around at the pool/beach. That's torture alright.

[Objectivist]

Ah yes, kids playing around at the pool/beach. That's torture alright.

I never said it was, then I don't agree that pouring water on someones head is torture.

[auctionguy10]

Some of these people hate us because we helped improve their way of life, so they can stick up their ass and go back to riding camels in the desert, stacking rocks in basic geometric shapes and cutting each others heads off.

This doesn't even make any sense. All "these people" hate the US government because we've been killing or stealing from them for years and we continue to do it today. Either directly or by funding crazies. How about we stop killing all these people then this torture issue would be irrelevant.

Its insane that people continue to act as if a bunch of broke villagers with ancient soviet era weapons are going to bring the US to its knees. Lose that prejudice and wake up. Believing everything the US government says is ridiculous and everyone in the world knows it.

[Objectivist]

This doesn't even make any sense. All "these people" hate the US government because we've been killing or stealing from them for years and we continue to do it today. Either directly or by funding crazies. How about we stop killing all these people then this torture issue would be irrelevant.

Its insane that people continue to act as if a bunch of broke villagers with ancient soviet era weapons are going to bring the US to its knees. Lose that prejudice and wake up. Believing everything the US government says is ridiculous and everyone in the world knows it.

We can take a dozen or so countries that found out they sat on top of large quantities of oil, they had no use for oil whatsoever and we did. They had a commodity that we were willing to purchase and they were willing to sell, problem was they were too stupid to get it out of the earth without contracting outside technology and labor. They had western nations enter deals to extract their oil and eventually sent us packing thinking they were smart enough to do this themselves, ah but alas they had to have the western nations come back and fix their screw ups and run the oil fields. But you don't recognize the need for oil in a industrial nation and that's too bad. We need what they have as it takes energy to produce and maintain our way of life, unless of course you approve of nuclear energy for electricity and natural gas to fuel vehicles, then we might be able to tell the assholes in the ME to go fuck themselves. Then our friends in Europe need that oil too. I guess that's why they built two pipelines out of Iraq, one thru Turkey to the north and another rebuilt running across Jordan to Haifa, Israel where ships will take it to the US and Europe across the Med.

As for your "killing and stealing" comment, the United States has provided more aid to foreign countries, including those were our enemies live, than any country in history. I find it odd that if like you say so many people hate us for a reason, that they line up around the globe to get here. I guess AMerica sucks according to you an everyone else?:rolleyes:

[carlangaslangas]

Nice find thanks. God, this government shames me. Surely there are not a majority of people that could stoop so low as to call this "enhanced interrogation". Give me a f*cking break.
If a government ever did this to me, bet your dollar that if I were ever released I would give lessons in "blowback."

And I think that's why they won't try the tortured prisoners.
One, because the case would be thrown out because of torture.
And two, because these prisoners are now even more pissed at us because of torture.
What a mess!
One way to start cleaning this up would be to try all the people involved in torture. By bringing torturers to justice, we would quelch some of the ardent rhetoric in the arab world, decrease the threat of violence, and increase security of americans in foreign countries.

[carlangaslangas]

I never said it was, then I don't agree that pouring water on someones head is torture.

You talk about "splashing water" and "pouring water on someone's head".
But waterboarding is not that. Have you seen the videos?
In addition, the context where it's being done is important.
These guys are taken from their cell by force by their enemies, tied up, blindfolded, put upside down on a board, and forced to breathe water and drown.
Very different from accidents in a pool. My brother almost drowned me once while playing around in the pool. And I agree with you that that's not torture. In part because I KNEW he did not intend to kill me. But these prisoners do not know that. And that's an important part of what makes it torture.

[Objectivist]

You talk about "splashing water" and "pouring water on someone's head".
But waterboarding is not that. Have you seen the videos?
In addition, the context where it's being done is important.
These guys are taken from their cell by force by their enemies, tied up, blindfolded, put upside down on a board, and forced to breathe water and drown.
Very different from accidents in a pool. My brother almost drowned me once while playing around in the pool. And I agree with you that that's not torture. In part because I KNEW he did not intend to kill me. But these prisoners do not know that. And that's an important part of what makes it torture.

Nobody is forcing them to do anything of the sort, if they answer the questions before them they won't experience their dry swimming lesson. I've taught people how to swim that sucked in more water than these crybabies.

I trust CIA and apparently most of you would rather the bad guys come, attack us and get 3 hots and a cot if they get caught. Maybe we can give them cable and video games to keep them occupied while their friends plan or carry out more attacks on my fellow citizens.

I got an idea, everyone against water boarding paint a big "WB" on your front door and when we can't find a place for these shitheads, then we can count on you taking them in to live at your house. Because they can take the Fifth and the charges will be dropped and then they get released. It seems nobody else around the globe wants them, so feel free to defend them and let them live with you.:)

[Objectivist]

YOu've been brainwashed people, by the system. This country has never played by the "rules" in any war at any time. SO the "rules" that you seem to think we should live up to are bullshit, and it takes a level of brutality to keep my country safe and you have a wimpish attitude to think otherwise. We've been playing dirty tricks and black bag jobs from the beginning, so deal with it, or enemies don't give a damn about rules or they would have sent a declaration of war memo to the Pentagon to let us know when the war was starting.

[ClayTrainor]

YOu've been brainwashed people, by the system.
:rolleyes:

If i had a nickel for every time i heard that, on this forum....

So obviously Ron Paul is brainwashed too...



This country has never played by the "rules" in any war at any time.
No shit, that doesn't justify your point.

Hitler didn't play by the "rules" either, and i'm sure he would've LOVED your philosophy on torture.




SO the "rules" that you seem to think we should live up to are bullshit,
It's called morality, not rules.

Ever heard of "The Higher Ground"?



and it takes a level of brutality to keep my country safe and you have a wimpish attitude to think otherwise.

Waterboarding and other forms of torture won't keep you safe, and you're foolish to think otherwise. Nothing but lies, and bad publicity has come from the torture by the Modern US Empire.

Techonology, and a strong military are a must, but advocating the use of torture to keep you safe has made me question your ability to use reason. I have a fondness for Ayn Rand's perspectives, but she was WAYYYYYYYYYY too militaristic.



We've been playing dirty tricks and black bag jobs from the beginning, so deal with it, or enemies don't give a damn about rules or they would have sent a declaration of war memo to the Pentagon to let us know when the war was starting.

And you have once again proven why Neo-Cons tend to love Ayn Rand.

WAY too militaristic, and not even sensibly.

Haven't you figured it out yet? This isn't a war, these are occupations, bro. I'm guessing you're totally cool with the UN resolutions as well? No need to declare war through congress? I guess we can just ditch all 'rules' since we're at war right? No need for a constitution, lets make the patriot act stronger too. Rules should be ignored in times of war, right? :rolleyes:

[Objectivist]

:rolleyes:

If i had a nickel for every time i heard that, on this forum....

So obviously Ron Paul is brainwashed too...


No shit, that doesn't justify your point.

Hitler didn't play by the "rules" either, and i'm sure he would've LOVED your philosophy on torture.



It's called morality, not rules.

Ever heard of "The Higher Ground"?



Waterboarding and other forms of torture won't keep you safe, and you're foolish to think otherwise. Nothing but lies, and bad publicity has come from the torture by the Modern US Empire.

Techonology, and a strong military are a must, but advocating the use of torture to keep you safe has made me question your ability to use reason. I have a fondness for Ayn Rand's perspectives, but she was WAYYYYYYYYYY too militaristic.



And you have once again proven why Neo-Cons tend to love Ayn Rand.

WAY too militaristic, and not even sensibly.

Haven't you figured it out yet? This isn't a war, these are occupations, bro. I'm guessing you're totally cool with the UN resolutions as well? No need to declare war through congress? I guess we can just ditch all 'rules' since we're at war right? No need for a constitution, lets make the patriot act stronger too. Rules should be ignored in times of war, right? :rolleyes:

YOu lost the debate when you tried to associate me with Neo-Cons, I'm nowhere near a Neo-Con.

Why don't you tell us what exactly will you gain by not water boarding? Nothing, but at least you can feel good about yourself and be relieved of any unfounded guilt you may have. SOunds like you're carrying a bag of bricks(guilt), maybe you should drop that bag and do the right thing.

My position on being In Iraq and Afghanistan.... We shouldn't be there, never should have gone. Then you're switching the debate to a different subject so you lose, but that's my response and if you'd like we can argue the merits of being there now that it's happened, I didn't want it to happen but a dead Saddam makes me happy. Should have drilled the hell out of ANWR and gave the Kuwaitis the finger too, we should have been building 500 nuclear power plants and produced Hydrogen Fuel in off peak hours to fuel busses and trucks, or drilled for the vast Natural Gas reserves and switched off of gasoline years ago. Gee not a Neo-con platform item in the bunch, at least they haven't backed any of these in the real world as far as I've seen.

[ClayTrainor]

YOu lost the debate when you tried to associate me with Neo-Cons, I'm nowhere near a Neo-Con.

Oh great, another self-declared debate winner :rolleyes:

Do you refer to yourself as Ayn Rand? Neo-Cons love several of her militaritic positions, that is fact. I don't think you're a neo-con at all, nor do i think Ayn Rand was. I think there are certain things, that neo-cons tend to love about Ayn Rand, that was my point that you took a bit out of context.

You simply proved to me why that is, with your "No rules, in war" position, and your senseless advocation of torture.


Why don't you tell us what exactly will you gain by not water boarding? Nothing, but at least you can feel good about yourself and be relieved of any unfounded guilt you may have. SOunds like you're carrying a bag of bricks(guilt), maybe you should drop that bag and do the right thing.

This is just flatout stupid...

I'm against the holocaust too. I don't really give a shit, personally, about Jews, Israel, Poland, or any of them, but it was obvious that the holocaust is wrong. It doesn't make me feel good about myself to say it, but i still stand by it. Same goes for torture... it's fucking wrong, and those who endorse it, have a screw loose, in my opinion.



My position on being In Iraq and Afghanistan.... We shouldn't be there, never should have gone.

Agreed, except i had no problem with them going in to catch Bin Laden and co.




Then you're switching the debate to a different subject so you lose
You've declared victory for yourself twice now :rolleyes:



, but that's my response and if you'd like we can argue the merits of being there now that it's happened, I didn't want it to happen but a dead Saddam makes me happy.
Sadaam was a scumbag, but his Iraq was more stable than the current version, and i think you'll agree.

I'd also like to see bush and cheney jump off a platform with a rope around their necks, but that's just me.


My position on being In Iraq and Afghanistan.... We shouldn't be there, never should have gone. Then you're switching the debate to a different subject so you lose, but that's my response and if you'd like we can argue the merits of being there now that it's happened, I didn't want it to happen but a dead Saddam makes me happy. Should have drilled the hell out of ANWR and gave the Kuwaitis the finger too, we should have been building 500 nuclear power plants and produced Hydrogen Fuel in off peak hours to fuel busses and trucks, or drilled for the vast Natural Gas reserves and switched off of gasoline years ago. Gee not a Neo-con platform item in the bunch, at least they haven't backed any of these in the real world as far as I've seen.

If you want to use the US Military to secure these positions, than yes, that is pure neo-con. Their resources are their own, and you have no right to them, unless they are willing to sell them to you.

[sailor]

you've been brainwashed people, by the system. This country has never played by the "rules" in any war at any time. So the "rules" that you seem to think we should live up to are bullshit, and it takes a level of brutality to keep my country safe and you have a wimpish attitude to think otherwise. We've been playing dirty tricks and black bag jobs from the beginning, so deal with it, or enemies don't give a damn about rules or they would have sent a declaration of war memo to the pentagon to let us know when the war was starting.

Yummie.

[NoMoreFed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruel_and_unusual_punishment

[AgentOrange]

Undoubtedly some people have a higher pain tolerance or threshhold than others, so there will be different individual perceptions on what a person perceives as "torture". I think it's quite telling that this guy who thought waterboarding was no big deal, is quick to call it torture after a mild form was done to him. Are there actually any proponents of waterboarding that have had it done to them?

And, As other's have mentioned it is the psychological component that plays a major part in making someone feel like they are being tortured.

Frankly, I had a bad labor that I would classify as torture (esp in comparision to previous labor)...but I survived and would volunteer again for it. :) It's that psychological aspect that makes that experience from being a totally unbearable torture to something I would sign up for again.

It's impossible to replicate the real feelings behind torture when the volunteer knows they can walk out at any moment.

[krazy kaju]

How could you compare waterboarding to torture if you never were tortured before? Would Muller say that sleep deprivation is torture?

[NoMoreFed]

How about Mancow volunteering to do it 6 times a day for a month? Maybe then we wouldn't need the psychological argument.

[Objectivist]

Oh great, another self-declared debate winner :rolleyes:

Do you refer to yourself as Ayn Rand? Neo-Cons love several of her militaritic positions, that is fact. I don't think you're a neo-con at all, nor do i think Ayn Rand was. I think there are certain things, that neo-cons tend to love about Ayn Rand, that was my point that you took a bit out of context.

You simply proved to me why that is, with your "No rules, in war" position, and your senseless advocation of torture.


This is just flatout stupid...

I'm against the holocaust too. I don't really give a shit, personally, about Jews, Israel, Poland, or any of them, but it was obvious that the holocaust is wrong. It doesn't make me feel good about myself to say it, but i still stand by it. Same goes for torture... it's fucking wrong, and those who endorse it, have a screw loose, in my opinion.



Agreed, except i had no problem with them going in to catch Bin Laden and co.



You've declared victory for yourself twice now :rolleyes:



Sadaam was a scumbag, but his Iraq was more stable than the current version, and i think you'll agree.

I'd also like to see bush and cheney jump off a platform with a rope around their necks, but that's just me.



If you want to use the US Military to secure these positions, than yes, that is pure neo-con. Their resources are their own, and you have no right to them, unless they are willing to sell them to you.

Easy to declare victory when you keep diverting and changing the subject, the Holocaust? How the fuck does that relate to the enemies of my country trying to murder innocent Americans? How does that relate to pouring wasser on their heads to get them with the program? Oh, so if if a neo-con has ascribed to one of Ayn Rands ideals it makes me a neocon? Please. Retarded people pick their noses and wipe their asses, does that make you a retarded person?I hope not, because I'd be wasting my time with you.

On Osama bin Laden, WHY are we after him? What exactly did he do on 9/11? Nothing, he was half way around the world sitting in another country minding his business, which by the way wasn't flying jets into buildings.

I've cheered when people have committed crimes, does that make me guilty of committing a crime?

[Objectivist]

Undoubtedly some people have a higher pain tolerance or threshhold than others, so there will be different individual perceptions on what a person perceives as "torture". I think it's quite telling that this guy who thought waterboarding was no big deal, is quick to call it torture after a mild form was done to him. Are there actually any proponents of waterboarding that have had it done to them?

And, As other's have mentioned it is the psychological component that plays a major part in making someone feel like they are being tortured.

Frankly, I had a bad labor that I would classify as torture (esp in comparision to previous labor)...but I survived and would volunteer again for it. :) It's that psychological aspect that makes that experience from being a totally unbearable torture to something I would sign up for again.

It's impossible to replicate the real feelings behind torture when the volunteer knows they can walk out at any moment.

And my step father beat me with a chain when I was 7 years old, boo-hoo!

[ClayTrainor]

Easy to declare victory when you keep diverting and changing the subject, the Holocaust? How the fuck does that relate to the enemies of my country trying to murder innocent Americans?


self-declared victory is all you'll ever get.

You asked me this stupid fucking question:
"Why don't you tell us what exactly will you gain by not water boarding?"

And i basically said, i don't gain anything by not supporting torture. I dont' gain anything by not supporting the holocaust either, but i know it's the right thing to do, based on my Morals and logic.

Get it? Got it? Good... I didn't change the subject anymore than you do, with your little "retard" example, below.

It's called using an example, because clearly the concept of torture being wrong can't get through your thick "objective" skull.



How does that relate to pouring wasser on their heads to get them with the program?
Because they're both pure evil. One more obvious than the other, but both evil, nonetheless.



Oh, so if if a neo-con has ascribed to one of Ayn Rands ideals it makes me a neocon?
Re-read what i said, and get back to me. I never called you a neo-con, stop putting words in my mouth.



Please. Retarded people pick their noses and wipe their asses, does that make you a retarded person?I hope not, because I'd be wasting my time with you.


Retards, and nose-picking? Now who's changing topics. However, i'm not a hypocrite, i understand the comparison you're trying to make, and agree to an extent.

I'm not gonna declare myself a victory due to this though, because i don't need an ego boost.


On Osama bin Laden, WHY are we after him? What exactly did he do on 9/11? Nothing,
I agree, but at the time, i thought he was therefore i supported the invasion for those reasons. Foolish of me, ill admit. I'm with you on this though.



he was half way around the world sitting in another country minding his business, which by the way wasn't flying jets into buildings.

Yup, or he was already dead, one of the 2.



I've cheered when people have committed crimes, does that make me guilty of committing a crime?

Nope, but advocating torture is still wrong, immoral and foolish.

[Danke]

I never said it was, then I don't agree that pouring water on someones head is torture.

Yes, but you were, and are equating you childhood pool experiences with water boarding.

Quite childish.

[Objectivist]

Yes, but you were, and are equating you childhood pool experiences with water boarding.

Quite childish.

Pool? What pool?

[ClayTrainor]

Pool? What pool?

Was it a beach? I'm too lazy to read-through right now.

[Objectivist]

self-declared victory is all you'll ever get.

You asked me this stupid fucking question:
"Why don't you tell us what exactly will you gain by not water boarding?"

And i basically said, i don't gain anything by not supporting torture. I dont' gain anything by not supporting the holocaust either, but i know it's the right thing to do, based on my Morals and logic.

Get it? Got it? Good... I didn't change the subject anymore than you do, with your little "retard" example, below.

It's called using an example, because clearly the concept of torture being wrong can't get through your thick "objective" skull.


Because they're both pure evil. One more obvious than the other, but both evil, nonetheless.


Re-read what i said, and get back to me. I never called you a neo-con, stop putting words in my mouth.



Retards, and nose-picking? Now who's changing topics. However, i'm not a hypocrite, i understand the comparison you're trying to make, and agree to an extent.

I'm not gonna declare myself a victory due to this though, because i don't need an ego boost.

I agree, but at the time, i thought he was therefore i supported the invasion for those reasons. Foolish of me, ill admit. I'm with you on this though.



Yup, or he was already dead, one of the 2.



Nope, but advocating torture is still wrong, immoral and foolish.

From an objective perspective the act of pouring water on someones head is a point of contention, I don't think it's torture. It does produce results.

[klamath]

From an objective perspective the act of pouring water on someones head is a point of contention, I don't think it's torture. It does produce results.
why?

[Objectivist]

Is putting someone is a jail cell torture?

[Danke]

Pool? What pool?

Oh, I'm sorry. You were hauled off to a foreign country and the drownings occurred daily over the course of months and years.

[ClayTrainor]

From an objective perspective the act of pouring water on someones head is a point of contention, I don't think it's torture.

When you say "pouring water on someones head" you really ignore the fruit of the issue. Of course you have to say it like that, in order to back up your points, but no, it is torture, no question about it. It's not just water going on your head, it fills up your lungs, prevents you from breathing and causes EXTREME anxiety, and can lead to death.

Here's a quote from a Navy Seal Instructor, discussing the issue on another forum.



Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.


It does produce results.

Yea, some lies, some truth, and how do you tell the difference?

Torture can be used to make your own truths, man. It's easy to get anyone to say whatever they have to, in order to stop the torture. And yes, waterboarding is torture, and you're dead wrong on this issue.

[Objectivist]

When you say "pouring water on someones head" you really ignore the fruit of the issue. Of course you have to say it like that, in order to back up your points, but no, it is torture, no question about it. It's not just water going on your head, it fills up your lungs, prevents you from breathing and causes EXTREME anxiety.

Here's a quote from a Navy Seal Instructor, discussing the issue on another forum.





Yea, some lies, some truth, and how do you tell the difference?

Torture can be used to make your own truths, man. It's easy to get anyone to say whatever they have to, in order to stop the torture. And yes, waterboarding is torture, and you're dead wrong on this issue.

Lets see, you're taking the word of a self proclaimed Navy SEAL Instructor that was in an internet forum? Maybe if I claimed to be a psychiatrist you'd believe me too? When you spell SEAL take note that it's an acronym for Sea Air Land and should be capped.

So if you want to coddle the enemies of my country go ahead, I have no feelings for people that would murder innocent Americans and would do what ever it took to prevent it from happening. It's an attack on my way of life and should be met head on and destroyed when it it rears its ugly face. Now go give the bad guys a big sloppy kiss and a hug and you can be friends.

[ClayTrainor]

Lets see, you're taking the word of a self proclaimed Navy SEAL Instructor that was in an internet forum? Maybe if I claimed to be a psychiatrist you'd believe me too? When you spell SEAL take note that it's an acronym for Sea Air Land and should be capped.


Sorry for not getting all technical, with my military grammar. Once again, who's changing the topic now?

Good thing you didn't challenge the information, and just where ti came from. Are you saying that waterboarding doesn't fill up your lungs? you're an illogical dolt if you actually believe they're just dumping water on someones head.



So if you want to coddle the enemies of my country go ahead, I have no feelings for people that would murder innocent Americans and would do what ever it took to prevent it from happening.
There's very little evidence for holding most of the people in these torture prisons. You haven't been paying much attention, have you?

Lots of innocent people are likely getting tortured as well.


It's an attack on my way of life and should be met head on and destroyed when it it rears its ugly face. Now go give the bad guys a big sloppy kiss and a hug and you can be friends.

This is a disingenuous, moronic comment.

I'm done with you and declaring a personal victory. ;)

[Objectivist]

When you say "pouring water on someones head" you really ignore the fruit of the issue. Of course you have to say it like that, in order to back up your points, but no, it is torture, no question about it. It's not just water going on your head, it fills up your lungs, prevents you from breathing and causes EXTREME anxiety, and can lead to death.

Here's a quote from a Navy Seal Instructor, discussing the issue on another forum.





Yea, some lies, some truth, and how do you tell the difference?

Torture can be used to make your own truths, man. It's easy to get anyone to say whatever they have to, in order to stop the torture. And yes, waterboarding is torture, and you're dead wrong on this issue.

How can you tell the difference? Easy, when the bad guy says something you make a phone call to people in the field and they take care of business, if things check out you got a winner. Now was that so hard? The bad guy is still in your custody so time is not an issue from that stand point, it could be if the bad guys were moving a nuke to your neighborhood.

[Objectivist]

Sorry for not getting all technical, with my military grammar. Once again, who's changing the topic now?


There's very little evidence for holding most of the people in these torture prisons. You haven't been paying much attention, have you?

Lots of innocent people are likely getting tortured as well.


This is a disingenuous, moronic comment.

I'm done with you and declaring a personal victory. ;)

Little evidence? Oh so people shooting at us on the battle field makes them saints?

[ClayTrainor]

Little evidence? Oh so people shooting at us on the battle field makes them saints?

Yea, everyone in the torture prisons was shooting at people :rolleyes:

Study up buddy, you have no idea what you're talking about here. You're not a neo-con, but you certainly endorse evil.

[Danke]

Lets see, you're taking the word of a self proclaimed Navy SEAL Instructor that was in an internet forum?

Look up Jesse Ventura. He has been through water boarding as a Navy SEAL and claims it is torture.

[ClayTrainor]

Look up Jesse Ventura. He has been through water boarding as a Navy SEAL and claims it is torture.

You can now await an attack on Ventura's character, because he's unable to debate the "Waterboarding is torture" issue.