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View Full Version : How to respond to this e-mail from my uncle? Muslims vs World




ClayTrainor
05-18-2009, 01:36 PM
My uncle is very sympathetic towards our libertarian ideals and i've been doing a pretty good job of converting him over from a Liberal / socialist.

He's a pretty devout Christian and he definitely buys into a lot of neo-con anti-muslim propaganda. He's very scared that muslims plan on taking over the world.

Anyways, what's the best way to respond to this email. I really want to help him come around on this issue.


Clay
Look at this Video. It is a formal plan to eliminate ALL
non-Muslims from the face of the earth by 2050. At their
present rate of persecution, it could happen as soon as
2025.
I understand you cannot comprehend such a thing
because the Muslim concept of life is of no danger to
you at this time. Hitler was terrible, but if you multiply
the dangers accepted and proclaimed by the inclusive
Islamic peoples, he would be considered a Saint.
Uncle Bill

The video attached here (http://media.terrorismawareness.org/files/MPAC.swf) (Graphic)

in my mind is not about religion.....

IT IS ABOUT DESPOTISM, AND A
MORALITY THAT PREACHES
HATRED, BIGOTRY AND DEMAGOGUERY.

80 years ago, nobody took Hitler seriously and we were almost destroyed
putting him down..this is another warning about an even more serious threat.....
a cult of hatred that even refuses the idea
that others have a place in this world, and the cruelty and fear they
use....even against their own people.

MG
************************************************** ********
Time to listen up Canadians.....there is not much time left.

Were Chretien, Mulrooney and Trudeau, responsible for rooting this evil in Canada?

Why are we so afraid of giving Harper a majority so we can defend ourselves, by
eliminating the gun registry and putting more teeth in the law. He has already
proved himself to be a good leader.....until the masses listen to the opposition
uniting them in common hatred....and .it worked really well....
what stupidity of Canadians,
listening to the dictatorial socialistic school yard bullies.....what were they thinking?
Or are they capable of thinking for themselves?
Are they capable of defending themselves?........and what do they plan to use to do this?

It is no longer a joke....we are facing reality.

V-rod
05-18-2009, 01:39 PM
Radical Islam is a threat, but it should be on the bottom of his list of worries.
Islamic countries historically never been cozy with Christians, but they didn't usually go out of their way to persecute them.

Our upcoming economic meltdown should be his top concern.

torchbearer
05-18-2009, 01:45 PM
Are there any radical islamics threatening your uncle?
Or is he afraid of the cave dwellers the media puts up in 'wag the dog' fashion.

Inform him that he is more likely to die in his bathtub than of a terrorist attack of any type.
He is more likely to accidentally drill a hole in his hand than of getting hit by a terrorist attack.

ClayTrainor
05-18-2009, 01:47 PM
Are there any radical islamics threatening your uncle?
Or is he afraid of the cave dwellers the media puts up in 'wag the dog' fashion.

Inform him that he is more likely to die in his bathtub than of a terrorist attack of any type.
He is more likely to accidentally drill a hole in his hand than of getting hit by a terrorist attack.

If i said something like that, he'd probably come back with what he already said.


I understand you cannot comprehend such a thing
because the Muslim concept of life is of no danger to
you at this time. Hitler was terrible, but if you multiply
the dangers accepted and proclaimed by the inclusive
Islamic peoples, he would be considered a Saint.
Uncle Bill

See my problem? Im not sure how to translate this into a fashion he'll understand.

torchbearer
05-18-2009, 01:54 PM
If i said something like that, he'd probably come back with what he already said.



See my problem? Im not sure how to translate this into a fashion he'll understand.

Fear is used to control. Who does he fear and why?
What is the source of information of that fear?
I'm not afraid of my bathtub, but I am more likely to die in it than in a terrorist attack.

Here is another one:
You don't send in the U.S. army to take out a gang of thugs. You send in the U.S. army to take out hitler and the german army.
He is being controlled through fear. Plain and simple.

If it were my uncle, I would surely insult him, and continue to insult him until he no longer talked to me. Seems extreme and absurd, but has been proven to work in the long run.

People are now coming back to me now to tell me I was right. The insult is a shock to the system that will keep the information at the top of the scum that is floating in their head. When a glimpse of reality ever hits their cortex, the insult is someone near- and the two pieces connect.

Of course, I have little patience for ignorance. Today at my family's diner, I was introduced to a table as a human encyclopedia by one of the top attorney's in town. In time people are learning to listen and in general I'm a very nice person. So I tell someone that if they are insulted, it is because I have challenged them in the most personal way.

clb09
05-18-2009, 01:55 PM
Hitler and the Nazis came from one homogeneous, advanced Western culture.

There was already a couple hundred years of technological and philosophical advancement from that particular section of Western Europe before the 1930s.

Muslims form many cultures around the world (Saudi Arabs, Indonesian Javans, Chinese Uighurs, etc.) so no cultural cohesion.

Muslims have very few technological advancements (independent of Western innovation).

And in case you hadn't noticed radical muslims have no qualms about slicing each others throats from time to time. U.S. Marines, WWII Nazis and other very well trained organizations do not commit fratricide nearly as often. Advantage: non-muslims!

There are many other examples but suffice it to say the "muslims" pose no REAL great danger like the Fed or Obama.

Cheers!

dr. hfn
05-18-2009, 01:59 PM
the only one that's gonna take away his freedom is washington, dc

torchbearer
05-18-2009, 02:03 PM
the only one that has already taken away his freedom is washington, dc

fixed it for ya.

Njon
05-18-2009, 02:15 PM
Radical Muslims do want to take over the world. The point is that it's not that big of a threat. The biggest threat is tyranny from our own government and the international bankers that control them.

torchbearer
05-18-2009, 02:18 PM
I overheard some 16 year olds talking about taking over the world the other day. Maybe I should contact homeland security.
I'm certain these prep kids have more resources than the cave dwellers of Pakistan.

ItsTime
05-18-2009, 02:18 PM
We shouldnt fear those who want to take over the world, we should fear the ones who have already taken it over.

Freedom 4 all
05-18-2009, 02:23 PM
the only one that's gonna take away his freedom is washington, dc

He's Canadian so technically it's Ottawa taking away his freedom

sailor
05-18-2009, 02:26 PM
My uncle is very sympathetic towards our libertarian ideals and i've been doing a pretty good job of converting him over from a Liberal / socialist.

He's a pretty devout Christian and he definitely buys into a lot of neo-con anti-muslim propaganda. He's very scared that muslims plan on taking over the world.

Anyways, what's the best way to respond to this email. I really want to help him come around on this issue.

Why? It`s pointless work to try to change people`s worldview on every minute detail.

Just showcase to him how a country built around libertarian principles is better able to defend herself than a statist country, wether we are talkin about a Martian invasion or a deadly plague or whatever.

ClayTrainor
05-18-2009, 02:32 PM
Great discussion guys, you're giving me some good Ammo for my letter :-)

Original_Intent
05-18-2009, 02:35 PM
Ask your uncle what country any terrorists that have attacked un on our soil have come from.

Then ask him if he knows the reasons THEY GAVE for the attack, and if their reasons involved taking over the world.

Then ask him if their reasons make more sense, or "taking over the world".

Sure there are Islamic extremists out there, the VAST VAST majority of muslims just want to be left alone to raise their families.

Tell your uncle that THEY are told that we are the great Satan wanting to take over the world - Have we given them more reason to believe their propaganda, or have they given us more reason to believe our propaganda? i.e. are they occupying our country, are they responsible for 500,000 of our kids dead in the last 20 years.... (be careful here, he may just dismiss you as a Blame America Firster)

rpfan2008
05-18-2009, 02:40 PM
Hey Clay you should have included a warning of disturbing graphic with that link.

Dark_Horse_Rider
05-18-2009, 02:55 PM
sure there are islamic extremists out there, the vast vast majority of muslims just want to be left alone to raise their families.

Tell your uncle that they are told that we are the great satan wanting to take over the world - have we given them more reason to believe their propaganda, or have they given us more reason to believe our propaganda? I.e. Are they occupying our country, are they responsible for 500,000 of our kids dead in the last 20 years.... (be careful here, he may just dismiss you as a blame america firster)

qft

paulitics
05-18-2009, 03:05 PM
It sounds like he has been programmed because there is nothing logical about anything he has said. The creator of the video is an irrational, paranoid lunatic.
David Horowitz was the one that went on Glenn Beck and said Lew Rockwell and others were in bed with Al Quada. He's insane.

Typical of most neocons, Horrowitz was a former Marxist, and his parents were communists attempting to bring this country down, basically treason. How can he trust the opinion of someone who was a radical Marxist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horowitz

lol, I noticed even the SPLC called him out for his bogotry. I'm afraid rational discourse will be near impossible, if he thinks some disorganized 3rd world countries that can't even get along with each other will take over the world in 15 years. So the first thing you must do, is stop him from listening to (racist?) guys like Horowitz.

ClayTrainor
05-18-2009, 03:21 PM
Hey Clay you should have included a warning of disturbing graphic with that link.

Done for the kids :p

Truth-Bringer
05-18-2009, 03:29 PM
I would respond to your uncle with this line of reasoning. The Muslims allegedly hate the Jews worse than any other group, correct? There are presently 25,000 Jew living in Iran. The government of Iran could legally, and rather easily, imprison them all and then begin killing them systematically. The fact that they don't kill those whom they allege to hate the most within their territory pretty much proves that there isn't a true effort to wipe out non-Muslims.

Here's a report by a Jew in Iran who says living there isn't any worse than in any other country: (http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html)

''Sometimes I think they are kinder to the Jews than they are to themselves. ... If we are gathered in a house, and the family is having a ceremony with wine or the music is playing too loud, if they find out we are Jews, they don't bother us so much,'' Eliyason said.

''Everywhere in the world there are people who don't like Jews. In England, they draw swastikas on Jewish graves. I don't think that Iran is more dangerous for Jews than other places.''

ClayTrainor
05-18-2009, 05:06 PM
There is a famous quote about using Fear to control a nation.

Does anyone know what i'm talking about? I wouldn't mind dropping in a good quote or 2

rpfan2008
05-18-2009, 05:55 PM
"The easiest way to gain control of a population is to carry out
acts of terror. [The public] will clamor for such laws if their
personal security is threatened".
-- Josef Stalin

Expatriate
05-18-2009, 06:14 PM
This is obviously something he feels strongly about, and not something that will be easy to change his mind on. However you may not even need to convince him that Muslims are any less dangerous than he believes. Strike up a dialogue and see if you can learn what actions he really supports against Muslims. If I were you I would first establish that you agree with him that Islam is indeed a grave threat to Christians and Jews living in those countries, but ask him to commit to looking deeper into the issue. What is at the root of the conflict?

He is probably convinced that the actions of the various Muslim sects against other religions are far more heinous and unjustified than anything perpetrated against Islam by the governments that represent the West(and in turn, the Christian and Jewish majority). He most likely is only familiar with the actions the West has taken that would be considered justified responses to Muslim aggression, and is afraid to consider the possibility that our side isn't perfectly just. Don't try to throw too much new information at him at once, or he might clam up.

I would ask him first if he really thinks most Muslims are evil. Of course some of them may be, just like there may be some evil Christians. But what he seems concerned about is the actions of the Muslim majorities, since they don't appear to denounce the actions he sees as undeniably evil. Ask him if it's plausible that such a large bloc of people have been brainwashed by clever propaganda into supporting evil. If he says yes, then ask him (later); is it is not also possible that the same thing has happened to us?

Remind him of what Atticus Finch said in To Kill a Mockingbird:

“You’ll never understand a man ‘til you stand in his shoes and look at the world through his eyes.”

Try to convince him to put himself in third world Islamic shoes. What is the fire driving this current "holy war"? Does he know of the various things Western governments have done that could be used as propaganda to justify a holy war? Does he know of the American bases on Muslim holy ground (Saudi Arabia) which was one of the things bin Laden used to justify 9/11? Does he really think that picking sides in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict helps us here?

What about this: http://mises.org/story/2588

All during the 1990s, the US attempted to starve the population of Iraq, with the result of hundreds of thousands of deaths. Madelyn Albright said on national television that the deaths of 500,000 children (the UN's number) was "worth it" in order to achieve our aims, which were ostensibly the elimination of non-existent, non-US built weapons of mass destruction.

Does he think that if the West had never meddled in Islamic affairs the Muslim majority would still feel such animosity towards us? Sure, many of the actions that Islamic sects have taken are pretty inexplicably nasty, like the blowing up of the Buddhas in Iraq and the church-burnings and pogroms, but I doubt the Islamic majorities would easily support a jihad against nations which had never meddled in their affairs.

Don't try to rush things though. I have encountered people like this before, and while they are usually willing to consider new ideas, they don't like to be talked at. Allow him to think that he is swaying your beliefs at first, and sympathize with him that many of the Muslim actions shown in the video are indeed terrible. That's no lie, even in the case where the pogroms were in revenge for something else, innocent people who had little to do with the root cause were the ones who paid the price. And it is certainly true that much of Islam is quite savage when contrasted against the societal norms of western countries.

Once he trusts you and does not view you as simply someone spewing your own particular brand of dogma, try to get him to look deeper into the issue. If he is a Christian than the words of Jesus can be a powerful ally when asking him to question his prejudices:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you." (Matthew 5:38-44)

Objectivist
05-18-2009, 06:21 PM
Islam is evil.

ClayTrainor
05-18-2009, 06:28 PM
This is obviously something he feels strongly about, and not something that will be easy to change his mind on. However you may not even need to convince him that Muslims are any less dangerous than he believes. Strike up a dialogue and see if you can learn what actions he really supports against Muslims. If I were you I would first establish that you agree with him that Islam is indeed a grave threat to Christians and Jews living in those countries, but ask him to commit to looking deeper into the issue. What is at the root of the conflict?

He is probably convinced that the actions of the various Muslim sects against other religions are far more heinous and unjustified than anything perpetrated against Islam by the governments that represent the West(and in turn, the Christian and Jewish majority). He most likely is only familiar with the actions the West has taken that would be considered justified responses to Muslim aggression, and is afraid to consider the possibility that our side isn't perfectly just. Don't try to throw too much new information at him at once, or he might clam up.

I would ask him first if he really thinks most Muslims are evil. Of course some of them may be, just like there may be some evil Christians. But what he seems concerned about is the actions of the Muslim majorities, since they don't appear to denounce the actions he sees as undeniably evil. Ask him if it's plausible that such a large bloc of people have been brainwashed by clever propaganda into supporting evil. If he says yes, then ask him (later); is it is not also possible that the same thing has happened to us?

Remind him of what Atticus Finch said in To Kill a Mockingbird:

“You’ll never understand a man ‘til you stand in his shoes and look at the world through his eyes.”

Try to convince him to put himself in third world Islamic shoes. What is the fire driving this current "holy war"? Does he know of the various things Western governments have done that could be used as propaganda to justify a holy war? Does he know of the American bases on Muslim holy ground (Saudi Arabia) which was one of the things bin Laden used to justify 9/11? Does he really think that picking sides in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict helps us here?

What about this: http://mises.org/story/2588


Does he think that if the West had never meddled in Islamic affairs the Muslim majority would still feel such animosity towards us? Sure, many of the actions that Islamic sects have taken are pretty inexplicably nasty, like the blowing up of the Buddhas in Iraq and the church-burnings and pogroms, but I doubt the Islamic majorities would easily support a jihad against nations which had never meddled in their affairs.

Don't try to rush things though. I have encountered people like this before, and while they are usually willing to consider new ideas, they don't like to be talked at. Allow him to think that he is swaying your beliefs at first, and sympathize with him that many of the Muslim actions shown in the video are indeed terrible. That's no lie, even in the case where the pogroms were in revenge for something else, innocent people who had little to do with the root cause were the ones who paid the price. And it is certainly true that much of Islam is quite savage when contrasted against the societal norms of western countries.

Once he trusts you and does not view you as simply someone spewing your own particular brand of dogma, try to get him to look deeper into the issue. If he is a Christian than the words of Jesus can be a powerful ally when asking him to question his prejudices:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you." (Matthew 5:38-44)

Wow man, that's some killer advice.

I'm going to have to consider everything you said, and rewrite my response to him :cool:

Andrew-Austin
05-18-2009, 06:37 PM
Great post Expatriate.

Liberty Star
05-18-2009, 10:13 PM
My uncle is very sympathetic towards our libertarian ideals and i've been doing a pretty good job of converting him over from a Liberal / socialist.

He's a pretty devout Christian and he definitely buys into a lot of neo-con anti-muslim propaganda. He's very scared that muslims plan on taking over the world.

Anyways, what's the best way to respond to this email. I really want to help him come around on this issue.

We just overthrew a secular dictator in Iraq and installed radical regime of Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Ask your uncle to google SCIRI.

Tell you uncle we'll need radical Jihadis to keep China, Russia, Israel etc in check or we'll have to risk our own troops lives for every foreign interventions in future decades. To a great part, these Jihadis and radical Islamists are our own creations, soon we'll have to start thinking if it is wise for us to burn all bridges with these extremists. We probably dont want to put all the investments of past decades to complete waste.

Expatriate
05-19-2009, 10:26 AM
I should probably add that nobody I personally knew ever "convinced" me to change my mind on this issue back when I thought I was a libertarian but still supported all the neocon foreign meddling. It might be best not to make your uncle think you're trying to change his mind on anything or he might react the same way I initially did.

Someone actually did approach me a year before I got to know Ron Paul and hit me with the 9/11 truth stuff, telling me the invasions were a sham. That totally turned me off because I assumed the person was just a Bush-bashing liberal. (I was supporting the Repubs as my lesser evil of choice, although I wasn't too political back then)

When I found out about Ron Paul's candidacy I was intrigued that someone who seemed more like a Libertarian was running as a Republican. I had always wanted to support the Libertarians but thought they had no chance of ever making a difference. When I saw him talk about blowback and how we shouldn't have been interfering with the Muslim world it made my heart sink at first. But since he seemed so principled and honest, and I agreed with him on almost everything else, I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. When I read some of his writings on the subject I was amazed by how much I didn't know about what America had done in the past to provoke acts of terrorism.

I guess what I'm saying is that you might have to let a third party such as Ron Paul do most of the convincing. After letting Uncle Bill know that you agree with him that Islam is a threat, maybe ask him in an unrelated email to look at some articles on LewRockwell.com or the Mises institute (preferably ones that don't understate the threat of terrorism) and get back to you with his opinion. Try to find ones that support things he is sympathetic to. (Since you said he was a socialist/liberal, I would assume he does not support moral restrictions, so this sort of thing (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul515.html) might be a good way to assure him that Ron Paul is on the same side as he) Unless he is completely repulsed by American politics, he might start reading some of the other pieces he wrote (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/#art2), and have his interest piqued to the possibility that there is still much that he does not know about the motivations of our enemies.

Although this uses Texas as an example, ask him at some point how he would feel if it was a Canadian province that was occupied by foreign troops as a response to "Canadian terrorism". Wouldn't it be a better approach, and one less likely to cause problems if the foreigners instead asked Canada to deal with the terrorists? Could behavior like this add new recruits to the ranks of Islamic extremism?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul512.html

Anther good one:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul241.html