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disorderlyvision
05-18-2009, 07:36 AM
http://www.strike-the-root.com/91/browne/browne4.html

Dear Ron Paul Supporters,

Thank you. Thank you for giving your time, effort, and money to the cause of liberty. Thank you for taking a stand for what you know is right, and putting yourselves out there in favor of opinions the State would rather you didn't hold.

Thank you for taking time to convince others of the benefits of freedom and free markets. For many years, Ron Paul has been an intelligent advocate for freedom who understands that we need to go further than just trimming a few marginal tax rates and vetoing a few line items from the budget. Via the 2008 Ron Paul For President campaign, many Americans got their first exposure to the idea of sound money, and the dangers of a fractional reserve banking system backstopped by the Fed.

I believe your efforts in the 2008 campaign will one day be viewed as a turning point in our long fight for a free society. Although the Ron Paul campaign didn't bring us smaller government, it resulted in three huge accomplishments for the libertarian movement.

1. It demonstrated the potential of the Internet to spread good ideas quickly, at little to no cost.

2. It showed that libertarians are more than a herd of disorganized individualist cats and are quite capable of effective political organization.

3. It proved once and for all that libertarians will never accomplish meaningful change by working within the confines of the existing system.

It is for #3 that I am most grateful.

For as long as I've been involved in the libertarian movement, there has been a vigorous debate between those who think we need a strategy of participation, of reform from within, and those who think we need a strategy of secession, of reform by dropping out.

Reform from within seemed so much easier -- it was certainly worth a try. Try it we have. We've been trying with all our might for decades now. We haven't had success.

Even as we libertarians have gained significant traction in the ideological debate, we’ve accomplished very little in terms of actual results. Every day, every week, every year, for many years in a row, government has grown larger and more intrusive. Still, you libertarians who sought reform from within kept your chins up. You held out hope that we would eventually gain some ground if we could just get some access.

With the Ron Paul campaign, libertarians got that access. We ran a candidate with strong credibility both in the libertarian movement and in Washington . We had lots of mainstream media attention and even more alternative media attention. We had full entry in the debates. We had lots of money. At some points in the primary race, we had more spending cash than any other candidate. We had the most motivated, organized, impressive grass roots movement of any political campaign in my lifetime.

It led nowhere.

In the fall of 2008 our economy unraveled in precisely the manner Ron Paul and the libertarians had been screaming it would. Washington went on with business as usual. On November 4, The Big Government Party won again, as it does every year, and the first four months of 2009 have witnessed the largest and fastest growth of the government's power and scope in American history.

It can be disheartening, crushing even, to admit to ourselves that we will never achieve our goals with our current strategy, but admit it we must. To think that we only need a few more people to understand free markets, that we only need a better candidate and better organization, that we only need something and then finally we'll get Washington under control, is pure delusion.

It was an entirely excusable, worthwhile delusion to hold. But no longer. The Ron Paul campaign should serve as our final proof that this strategy will never work.

Libertarians can indeed achieve liberty in our lifetimes, but only if we have a winning strategy. Let's recognize that what we're doing isn't working and try something else.

Sincerely,

Stewart Browne
Scarecrow For President

Then Saul dressed David in his own tunic. He put a coat of armor on him and a bronze helmet on his head. David fastened on his sword over the tunic and tried walking around, because he was not used to them.

"I cannot go in these," he said to Saul, "because I am not used to them." So he took them off. Then he took his staff in his hand, chose five smooth stones from the stream, put them in the pouch of his shepherd's bag and, with his sling in his hand, approached the Philistine. -- First Samuel 17: 38 - 40

In How David Beats Goliath, Malcolm Gladwell shows that underdogs significantly tip the scales when they refuse to play by Goliath's rules. From the article:

“The political scientist Ivan Arreguin-Toft recently looked at every war fought in the past two hundred years between strong and weak combatants [one side was at least ten times as powerful as its opponent]. The Goliaths, he found, won in 71.5 per cent of the cases. What happened, Arreguin-Tof wondered, when the underdogs acknowledged their weakness and chose an unconventional strategy? In those cases, David's winning percentage went from 28.5 to 63.6.”

The article focuses on a junior girls basketball team in Redwood City , California . They were inexperienced, short, and not particularly talented. Their coach, a recent émigré, knew almost nothing of basketball before taking over the team. Having an outsider's view, the coach didn't understand the conventions of National Junior Basketball and had his team adopt the unusual strategy of an aggressive full court press.

Week after week, their unique approach changed the parameters of the game and took away natural advantages of their opponents, whose teams were built and trained to play the half-court game.

"What that defense did for us is that we could hide our weaknesses...We could hide the fact that we didn't have good outside shooters. We could hide the fact that we didn't have the tallest lineup, because as long as we played hard on defense we were getting steals and getting easy layups."


In the battle between libertarians and statists, there is no question who is David and who is Goliath. There also is no question regarding who continues to win.

One more time, David's winning percentages in conflicts with Goliath:
David plays by conventional rules: 28.5% success.
David acknowledges his weakness and adopts an unconventional strategy: 63.6% success.


In Part 1: An Open Letter To Ron Paul Supporters, I argue that libertarians have thoroughly tried the conventional strategy, and it has failed us.

So how do we get to that 63.6% success number? According to the research, the first step is to acknowledge our weakness. In the game of electoral politics, where candidates compete for one vote per citizen, our team has a huge and fatal weakness that we rarely acknowledge at all.

The statist politician tells corn farmers that he'll score them millions in free money. Our candidate tells them he'll take it away. The statist politician tells senior citizens he'll pay for their prescription drugs. Our candidate tells them the entitlements are bankrupt.

The statist politician leads us to war, and finds his campaign coffers full of cash from a few defense contractors who were made rich. Our candidate pushes non-intervention and must hope that enough Peaceniks will be impressed to donate a few bucks. The statist politician raises government funds through debt and uses those funds to shower extravagant favors on special interests. Our candidate must hope that people will learn and care enough about the debt burden to vote against it in the face of intense engagement from powerful special interests who stand to gain million dollar windfalls.

The statist politician goes to Washington with the understanding that his purpose is to get a piece of the pie for his constituents. Our candidate goes to Washington hoping to shrink the pie as small as it can go. Our candidate usually loses, and in the rare cases when he wins, he finds that to win again, he too must start bringing home pie, meaning even when we win, we lose.

Just as the rules of basketball favor those who are tall, strong, and have a good jump shot, the rules of democracy favor those who want to grow the government. For decades, we have been playing by Goliath's rules, the very rules that allowed Goliath to rise to power in the first place.

The only way we can play away from our weakness is to get out of the electoral politics game altogether.

This brings us to the first step in a new, more unconventional strategy.

Step 1: Stop voting in Washington 's elections.

If we refuse to participate, we initiate a strategy that plays away from our inherent weakness and also neutralizes Goliath's greatest strength: popular consent.

The politicians' greatest advantage is the ease with which they can take money from your pocket and promise it to someone else, someone whose vote they need.

They are able to do this because, like it or not, they have your consent. Take away that consent, and you've chipped away at their advantage.

You consent to this madness every time you pay Washington 's taxes or comply with one of their illegitimate laws. And yes, none of us can safely stop complying with federal laws, but we can tell the world that we intend to try. We can also take a simple, legal action toward that end by staying away on Election Day, and making some noise about our choice to do so.

Choosing not to vote, telling your friends and family why you made that choice, announcing on the Internet and at large that you deny Washington 's legitimacy is a much, much more powerful statement than "Vote for my guy." Choosing to abstain from Washington 's elections, not because you don't like the candidates, but because you don't believe in the system, is an act of secession, and the idea of secession loses some of its radical fringe when regular people around the country start doing it.

Heck, the idea of secession is losing its radical fringe already. Last month Cato Unbound hosted a conversation about "Starting From Scratch" and kicked it off with an essay by Patri Friedman encouraging libertarians to colonize the ocean. Later, Jason Sorens, founder of The Free State Project, chimed in and outlined the growing success of the movement he started. Peter Thiel, creator of PayPal and one of the richest men in the world, wrote his own entry, saying this:

I stand against confiscatory taxes, totalitarian collectives, and the ideology of the inevitability of the death of every individual....But I must confess that over the last two decades, I have changed radically on the question of how to achieve these goals. Most importantly, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.

The Cato Unbound conversation made secession the topic of choice in the libertarian blogopshere last month. And libertarians aren't the only ones buzzing about this topic.

After Rick Perry's now infamous secession remarks (remarks he was pushed into saying by a crowd chanting "Secede!"), a poll of Texas GOP members found them evenly divided on whether Texas should drop out of the union. Since then a new poll shows 43 percent of Georgia Republicans would prefer their state be independent of the USA .

In Montana , a state sovereignty resolution included strong language about the rights of Montana to consider its contract with the USA broken. One of the resolution's authors said of secession, "That is the big stick in the room that we have to occasionally display."

Even the big names in Republican talk radio are getting in on this.

From Glenn Beck on April 14:

"You can't convince me that the Founding Fathers wouldn't allow you to secede. The Constitution is not a suicide pact, and if a state says: ‘I don't want to go there, because that's suicide,’ they have a right to back out. They have a right -- people have a right to not commit economic suicide..."

From the May 7 edition of Rush Limbaugh show, spoken by guest host Mark Steyn:

"The strength of this country is in trusting its people and in trusting its -- the natural competition of a federalist system....If somebody in South Dakota, or somebody in Idaho, or somebody in Alabama, or somebody in Maine wants to try a completely different way of governing, that is between them and their electorate. Where it all gets very dangerous is when you have a president and a Democratic Congress who are essentially committed to federal annexation. Federal annexation -- ensuring that there's a kind of one-size-fits-all model across the country is going to put a big question mark over America ."

Amidst all this secession chatter, Ron Paul himself made this statement:

[Perry] “really stirred some of the liberal media, where they started screaming about: 'what is going on here, this is un-American.' I heard one individual say 'this is treasonous to even talk about it.' Well, they don't know their history very well, because when you think about it... it is very American to talk about secession. That's how we came in being. Thirteen colonies seceded from the British and established a new country. So secession is a very much American principle. What about all the strong endorsements we have give the past decade or two to all the republics that seceded from the Soviet system? We were delighted about it.”

Imagine if this conversation continues to pick up steam. Imagine if some more big names got on board. Imagine if, by this time next year, a million people across the country gather for a second round of "Tea Parties" but don’t aim to reform Washington, but rather announce their intent to leave it.

It isn't much of a stretch.

Six months ago, secession was a pipe dream. Now it's a topic of conversation. And we haven't even tried to push it yet.

Some of you might protest that last sentence. Some of you have been pushing secession all your life.

Good job to you. Keep it up.

But the vast majority of Americans who want smaller government are trying to accomplish it from within the system. It is to these Americans I speak. We need you to stop banging your head against the door and start trying to open it.

Whether it be Seasteading, Freestating, Cambrian Exploding, Panarchy Chasing, or just gold old fashioned Seceding, if we fully abandon our strategy of getting in and instead focus all that wasted energy on dropping out, we'll be playing our own game rather than Goliath's.

It starts with not voting. But it doesn't stop there.

What if all the money and effort that in the past went towards political campaigns instead when towards a true secessionist effort? What if all the volunteers who canvassed for Ron Paul in 2008 instead set up alternate voting stations on Election Day, where people didn't go to cast a vote for office, but went to be counted as one who wanted to secede? What if the door hangers, mailbox stuffers, Youtube videos, money bombs and passionate support that once went to a candidate instead went to the idea of abandoning Washington ?

What if an organization like Campaign For Liberty was repurposed, so that instead of being yet another voice in the already large choir spreading the free market gospel, it became our mainstream mouthpiece on behalf of dropping out? What if we made enough noise about our desire to be done with Washington that we made the politicians nervous about what might happen?

At this point, it wouldn't be that hard to get the politicians scared.

In addition to playing away from their own weaknesses, successful Davids also attack Goliath where he is weak. And right now, Goliath is exceptionally weak.

In addition to the massive tax burden we have always paid, each one of us is also on the hook for about $200,000 in future debt (or by other numbers, well over $300,000 per person).

It was this explosion of new debt more than anything else that caused growing anger at government to boil over into last month's Tea Parties, where half a million Americans gathered to scream, Who is going to pay for this?

Secessionists are the only ones with a viable answer to that question. Secessionists can answer, "Not me."

Step 2: We make clear to the world that as soon as we're able, we will stop funding Washington 's madness, and we have no intention of ever paying back Washington 's debt.

For years, Washington has grown in strength by pitting us against one another, promising to hand out money to one favored group while quietly stealing it from another. They've now over-extended their hand, and put themselves in a position of weakness that we must exploit if we're ever going to shake them loose. Americans already give over half their income to government; now they're on the hook for at least $200,000 more per person!

What if some of the energy and money that in the past went towards winning our place in Washington instead went to spreading the word that anyone who wants out of this ridiculous downward cycle of national debt can get out if they join us in secession?

If enough of us start talking this way, it will most certainly hamper the already crippled Treasury market. If we hamper the Treasury market, we'll have cut off Washington 's most valuable income source.

And then things get interesting.

Another characteristic of successful strategies against Goliath is that David so thoroughly abandons the old rules that Goliath calls foul, and is surprised into making mistakes.

From the coach of the team in Gladwell's article:

"My girls were all blond-haired white girls...One time, we were playing this all-black team from East San Jose . They had been playing for years. These were born-with-a-basketball girls. We were just crushing them. We were up like twenty to zero. We wouldn't even let them inbound the ball, and the coach got so mad that he took a chair and threw it. He started screaming at his girls, and of course the more you scream at girls that age the more nervous they get."

Already, the word "treason" is getting thrown at the large and growing secessionist movement. A particularly ugly post at Alternet compared secessionists to Timothy McVeigh. MSNBC’s Chris Matthews called talk of secession “whack-job stuff,” calling Rick Perry a “bozo” saying, “You don’t have a choice, buddy.” Rachael Maddow called secessionist talk “flirting to the point of adultery.”

We should take all of this as evidence that we're on the right track. We should know and be ready for the statist's insults to get much, much worse. This leads us to the third step.

Step 3: Even as the State and its cheerleaders grow increasingly hostile toward us, we remain entirely peaceful. At its core, secession is the most peaceful way to solve any political conflict. And if we follow steps 1 & 2, we're likely to see Washington 's language grow ugly, and their tactics grow desperate. It is crucial that when this happens, we remain non-violent. The guns in your garage might be itching to defend your freedom, but you need to leave them there until the next turkey shoot. If there is one thing Washington loves, it’s a violent fight. If we engage in one, we’re right back to playing their game.

When Washington really starts to lose its cool towards secessionists, if we remain peaceful, Washington 's credibility will wane even further, and our position will grow stronger.

Eventually, this new approach becomes a positive feedback loop.

Step 1: We stop voting altogether and proclaim as loud as we can that we're not participating because we have no confidence in the current system. The State's continued decline becomes their problem, not ours, and strengthens the argument in favor of secession.
Step 2: We proclaim ourselves as secessionists both in public forums like the Internet and in our own communities. As the number of proclaimed secessionists grows, so does the chorus to repudiate the debt. This makes domestic and foreign creditors nervous. The already tanking Treasury market will tank even more, depriving Washington of its most powerful source of funding.
Step 3: As the strength of our position grows through steps 1 & 2, an increasingly threatened state will lash out at us, but we will remain peaceful. The nature of Washington will be laid bare for all to see, our position will grow stronger, and the number of people willing to engage in Step 1 will grow.

As with all positive feedback loops, all it takes is enough energy on our part to get it started. Eventually, it will have enough momentum that it can't be stopped. In the Soviet Union , it took less than a decade to go from a tyrannical central state to widespread, successful secession.

And whether the first big leap to freedom happens in New Hampshire , in San Francisco Bay , or outside of any geographical boundary, once the first group secedes, it will be much easier for others to follow. We shouldn't worry if the first step is less than perfect (say, if Medicare is replaced with "Texicare"). If any single group in America pulls off real secession, the game is permanently changed. Secession is the great equalizer that counterbalances the dreadful incentives in a democracy. It's been against the rules for 150 years. We need to put it back into play.

To do so, we'll need the courage to recognize that our current strategy has failed, that defeating Goliath can only happen if we play our own game.

So, my friends, put down your sword, and pick up your stones. We have a giant to fell.

Elwar
05-18-2009, 07:41 AM
summary:
Dear Ron Paul supporters...please don't vote.

idiom
05-18-2009, 07:43 AM
I dunno. I think we are finally building the momentum within the system based on two factors we never had before:

1# The Internet
2# A jolly great depression

The '60s got pretty close, but no internet, no depression and they shot all the leaders.

Oh and everybody was laying about stoned.

ronpaulhawaii
05-18-2009, 07:54 AM
I remain very wary of those who want us to "drop out".

1 - I'm sure our enemies would love for us to drop out, especially as we are building strength and momentum "in" the system.

2 - It goes against the direction RP has pointed us in

torchbearer
05-18-2009, 08:04 AM
Looks like a letter Lindsey Graham would write.
Take the TW shit and shove up your ass.
The only way to destroy the ring of power is to take it back to where it was created.

Or you can pretend you are free by hiding in your basement. TW will join you in your inactivity.

http://compoundthinking.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/istock_000002694919xsmall.jpg

torchbearer
05-18-2009, 08:24 AM
I can't think of many battles General George Washington and his men won, but I'm glad they kept fighting.

disorderlyvision
05-18-2009, 08:38 AM
the article came from Strike the Root's newsletter/website. Just so you know that I didn't write it. I was just curious to everyones opinion.

Conza88
05-18-2009, 09:22 AM
Summation: retarded.

Step 1: I advocate stop voting in elections; UNLESS IT"S FCKEN RON PAUL or ANYONE who fits the bar of Freedom... (NOT Bob Barr btw)...

What pisses me off about the people who advocate don't vote, to the EXTENT they say - Don't vote for Ron Paul, or it did nothing - /facepalm.

Millions world wide are now more awake than ever because of him. Simply RUNNING for Office is WINNING!

Step 2: Fine, go ahead - don't pay the taxes, avoid them all you can, tax free zones (loopholes) etc. Nothing stopping from you as an individual doing it. Why wait for others? Why NEED others to do it? They OWN A PRINTING PRESS YOU TOOL, withholding taxes won't do jack shit... lol

Step 3: If the Jews had guns, they should have used them... Or was peaceful resistance the best option there? :rolleyes:

The modern state isn't the British occupying a foriegn land. {India} This is the States home turf... there is no withdrawing voluntarily.

Original_Intent
05-18-2009, 09:27 AM
The OP is persuasive, but at the end of the day I have to agree with Torchbearer.

BuddyRey
05-18-2009, 09:39 AM
I agree with the idea of Going Galt, but it certainly can't be done simply by abstaining from voting. We also have to stop playing by TPTB's rules (just the unreasonable ones, of course), and that's where most people start to feel uncomfortable and don't want to follow through.

In my humble opinion, The Free State Project is the most interesting and achievable prospect for attaining liberty.

zadrock
05-18-2009, 09:42 AM
I agree with this general idea of David vs. Goliath. We do need unique strategies to combat the regime. We need to do things unconventionally. I think we have been doing that and I think we will continue to do that.

However, I do not agree with the author's ideas of what strategies to pursue.

Z

ronpaulhawaii
05-18-2009, 09:47 AM
I agree with this general idea of David vs. Goliath. We do need unique strategies to combat the regime. We need to do things unconventionally. I think we have been doing that and I think we will continue to do that.

However, I do not agree with the author's ideas of what strategies to pursue.

Z

+1

FSP-Rebel
05-18-2009, 10:11 AM
I agree with the idea of Going Galt, but it certainly can't be done simply by abstaining from voting. We also have to stop playing by TPTB's rules (just the unreasonable ones, of course), and that's where most people start to feel uncomfortable and don't want to follow through.

In my humble opinion, The Free State Project is the most interesting and achievable prospect for attaining liberty.

I agree, the way to bring the most credibility (in the masses' minds) to freedom is by voting for it. And the Free State Project is the new unconventional way to consolidate libertarian numbers in one area like never before. If liberty lovers stay stretched out across the country and the world, then they lose their ultimate effectiveness. So, it's time to start striking at the root instead of hacking at the branches in vein. Secession seems to be the only way out from under DC's debt juggernaut.

Bryan
05-18-2009, 10:32 AM
From OP:

3. It proved once and for all that libertarians will never accomplish meaningful change by working within the confines of the existing system.

This is a logical fallacy- it proved no such thing. Is the author using such fallacies to advanced his agenda? It would seem so.


My money says that any move towards secession will play right into the hands of TPTB in another divide and conquer scheme by creating chaos from the divide (ie: civil war) of which a new order can be imposed to end the violence. There is certainly some speculation in this but just look at history and who is pushing the calls for secession. It's a match fit.

FSP-Rebel
05-18-2009, 10:48 AM
From OP:


This is a logical fallacy- it proved no such thing. Is the author using such fallacies to advanced his agenda? It would seem so.


My money says that any move towards secession will play right into the hands of TPTB in another divide and conquer scheme by creating chaos from the divide (ie: civil war) of which a new order can be imposed to end the violence.
That's why it's imperative to stay peaceful and not talk like gun polishers - use a video camera instead to document/show the state for what it is. There's something to be said about not playing into their hands.

Feenix566
05-18-2009, 11:05 AM
If you want to strike the root, the root is the government education system. Everybody thinks that big government is good for them because everybody went to a government school and were tought by government employees that government is good for you. That's why we have so much trouble getting our message out. That's why we have so much trouble being taken seriously by the mainstream media. Because everybody in the mainstream media went to government schools. I went to a government school, too. It's a miracle I turned out the way I am! It certainly isn't thanks to my education.

Strike at the root. Support school choice.

School choice has been proven effective. There are mountains of evidence proving that when schools compete, kids win. This is an issue that everybody in America can get involved in. It's an issue that we can talk about in the open without being labeled as anti-government sesessionist nut jobs. It's an idea whose time has come, and which is gaining popularity.

School choice is the only way that limited government ideas are ever going to take hold in America. We're not fighting a war for political position. We're fighting a war of ideas. The only way you win a war of ideas is by convincing the undecided middle that you're right. We can do that. We can prove that school choice works. We can make it happen. We can convince most Americans that big government doesn't work as well as the free market.

Then, and only then, will we make real progress.

Avoiding the polls on election day won't accomplish squat.

zadrock
05-18-2009, 11:06 AM
I agree with this general idea of David vs. Goliath. We do need unique strategies to combat the regime. We need to do things unconventionally. I think we have been doing that and I think we will continue to do that.

However, I do not agree with the author's ideas of what strategies to pursue.

Z

I just finished the David v. Goliath article. Malcolm Gladwell is awesome, and I think his article is very insightful. We do need to apply this kind of thinking to our strategies.

Here's the Gladwell article, referenced (but not linked to) in the OP: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=1

On another topic, check out this Gladwell talk: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html He doesn't say it explicitly, but it's a marvelous example of free markets at work.
/Gladwell ass-kissing
:D

Z

ARealConservative
05-18-2009, 11:13 AM
about half of eligible voters don't vote.


so much for that solution. :rolleyes:

Carole
05-18-2009, 11:16 AM
The Free State Project appears to be going nowhere. NH was invaded by liberals and NH is no longer the independent bastion it once appeared to be.

FSP-Rebel
05-18-2009, 11:36 AM
The Free State Project appears to be going nowhere. NH was invaded by liberals and NH is no longer the independent basiton it once appeared to be.
Really? http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=191863&page=3 (about half way down) in regards to the invasion of liberals. NH has just fended off a seatbelt law, income/sales taxes in addition to putting same-sex marriage and medical MJ on the governor's desk for sig approval. Actually, the FSP has helped NH neutralize the liberals that were put in power in the '06 "vote against all Republicans" mantra thanks to Bush and his wars. Then in '08, 17 GOPers won back state rep seats against the democrats. Moreso, a libertarian-republican just won a special election to the state house http://elect-mari.com/home. The FSP may not have reached the stated participant level yet, but the early movers have been doing great things as evidenced above. 2010 will be a big political success for the ever-increasing movers to NH.

OK, back on topic

Truth-Bringer
05-18-2009, 01:40 PM
summary:
Dear Ron Paul supporters...please don't vote.

This is the only part I disagree with. We should vote - just never for Democrats or Republicans, unless they have a verifiable, validated libertarian stand on the issues.

And we should just acknowledge that by voting we are not submitting to this system.

I would say we should never stop trying to reform it, but really secession may be the better option at this point.

Kraig
05-18-2009, 02:16 PM
Looks like a letter Lindsey Graham would write.
Take the TW shit and shove up your ass.
The only way to destroy the ring of power is to take it back to where it was created.

Or you can pretend you are free by hiding in your basement. TW will join you in your inactivity.

http://compoundthinking.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/istock_000002694919xsmall.jpg

Wow he is not at all talking about sticking your head in the sand or simply not voting, he is talking pushing the idea open secession and tax revolt.

"Six months ago, secession was a pipe dream. Now it's a topic of conversation. And we haven't even tried to push it yet."

Funny how you bring up an example of Washington when what they chose was very similar to what this guy is advocating. The colonists certainly didn't win their freedom by infiltrating and reforming the English government from within which is what "we" are trying to do here.

Kraig
05-18-2009, 02:17 PM
about half of eligible voters don't vote.


so much for that solution. :rolleyes:

That's not at all what he is talking about, anyone else have a good straw man? I'm looking for something to scare the crows away.


Step 1: We stop voting altogether and proclaim as loud as we can that we're not participating because we have no confidence in the current system. The State's continued decline becomes their problem, not ours, and strengthens the argument in favor of secession.
Step 2: We proclaim ourselves as secessionists both in public forums like the Internet and in our own communities. As the number of proclaimed secessionists grows, so does the chorus to repudiate the debt. This makes domestic and foreign creditors nervous. The already tanking Treasury market will tank even more, depriving Washington of its most powerful source of funding.
Step 3: As the strength of our position grows through steps 1 & 2, an increasingly threatened state will lash out at us, but we will remain peaceful. The nature of Washington will be laid bare for all to see, our position will grow stronger, and the number of people willing to engage in Step 1 will grow.

The only thing I disagree with him is that we would be able to/it would be wise to remain peaceful under those conditions.

torchbearer
05-18-2009, 02:21 PM
Wow he is not at all talking about sticking your head in the sand or simply not voting, he is talking pushing the idea open secession and tax revolt.

"Six months ago, secession was a pipe dream. Now it's a topic of conversation. And we haven't even tried to push it yet."

Funny how you bring up an example of Washington when what they chose was very similar to what this guy is advocating. The colonists certainly didn't win their freedom by infiltrating and reforming the English government from within which is what "we" are trying to do here.

The colonist weren't allowed to be in apart of the british government.
DO you want bloodshed? Are you willing to die today? You will if you pick up your rifle in defense of secession. There is no doubt about it.
G-men will kill you because they are following orders.

Change the government, change the world. Peacefully first-

Kraig
05-18-2009, 02:25 PM
The colonist weren't allowed to be in apart of the british government.
DO you want bloodshed? Are you willing to die today? You will if you pick up your rifle in defense of secession. There is no doubt about it.
G-men will kill you because they are following orders.

Change the government, change the world. Peacefully first-

They weren't allowed to by law, we aren't allowed to because the MSM gives us a big "F" for the stupid popularity contests. Effectively I think it is the same, we are trying to change that, the success of those attempts are quite debatable at this time. We'll see what happens I guess.

Am I willing to die today? That's a long discussion in itself. Ultimately I have no future in this society so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to for me to take up arms against those who have deprived me of so much.

Acala
05-18-2009, 02:35 PM
Secession is not a "head-in-the-sand" strategy. It is, in fact, a right as stated by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence and reiterated years later by Jefferson and Madison in the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions.
It is also our best hope for giving birth to a new Republic out of the ashes of this one.

I am involved in the Repugnant Party as a PC and a State Committeeman because Dr. Paul asked me to do that. But I think the chances of restoring liberty through the existing political system are mighty close to zero. I think the chances with secession are better.

I would hope that secession could be brought about peacefully. But I don't think we can count on that. We must be prepared to fight for our liberty. And the enemies of liberty must KNOW we will fight for it. Then there is at least a chance we will not have to do so.

Kraig
05-18-2009, 02:40 PM
Secession is not a "head-in-the-sand" strategy. It is, in fact, a right as stated by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence and reiterated years later by Jefferson and Madison in the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions.
It is also our best hope for giving birth to a new Republic out of the ashes of this one.

I am involved in the Repugnant Party as a PC and a State Committeeman because Dr. Paul asked me to do that. But I think the chances of restoring liberty through the existing political system are mighty close to zero. I think the chances with secession are better.

I would hope that secession could be brought about peacefully. But I don't think we can count on that. We must be prepared to fight for our liberty. And the enemies of liberty must KNOW we will fight for it. Then there is at least a chance we will not have to do so.

Thank you, finally someone is reasonable.

torchbearer
05-18-2009, 03:06 PM
Secession is not a "head-in-the-sand" strategy. It is, in fact, a right as stated by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence and reiterated years later by Jefferson and Madison in the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions.
It is also our best hope for giving birth to a new Republic out of the ashes of this one.

I am involved in the Repugnant Party as a PC and a State Committeeman because Dr. Paul asked me to do that. But I think the chances of restoring liberty through the existing political system are mighty close to zero. I think the chances with secession are better.

I would hope that secession could be brought about peacefully. But I don't think we can count on that. We must be prepared to fight for our liberty. And the enemies of liberty must KNOW we will fight for it. Then there is at least a chance we will not have to do so.

Not voting is a head in the sand policy.

idiom
05-18-2009, 04:30 PM
The goal is to avoid secession as long as possible in hope of turning the government around.

The last civil war wasn't fought with stockpiles of VX gas lying about.

torchbearer
05-18-2009, 04:34 PM
The goal is to avoid secession as long as possible in hope of turning the government around.

The last civil war wasn't fought with stockpiles of VX gas lying about.

and militarized police forces, swat teams,
federalized state armies
national guards deployed overseas
mass media controlled automatons

idiom
05-18-2009, 04:41 PM
and militarized police forces, swat teams,
federalized state armies
national guards deployed overseas
mass media controlled automatons

Both sides will have all that stuff.

I think Ron Paul or somebody else should post a bill commanding that the stockpiles of dodgy stuff be destroyed so that they don't end up in the wrong hands in the event of a secession.

That would stoke a pretty serious debate.

Given what we have seen in modern civil wars all over the world, we should stop and think about the possibility of both sides in a civil war engaging Bio, chem and nuclear weapons. Where would the Fed stop in pursuit of the 'terrorists'? Where would we stop in pursuit of liberty?

It may all have to happen, but before God or whatever you respect, don't seek war first.

eOs
05-18-2009, 05:03 PM
I agree very much with the opening thread, although realistically I don't see any wheels turnings on this idea until after the next presidential election and once we finally see where this recession and global order talk takes us. Until then I will continue to vote and participate within the system.

dr. hfn
05-18-2009, 05:05 PM
bad idea

georgiaboy
05-18-2009, 05:41 PM
and militarized police forces, swat teams,
federalized state armies
national guards deployed overseas
mass media controlled automatons

and monikers like "insurgents"


btw, the "open letter" in the OP sux