Jesus and Freedom

[Working Poor]

Many people think freedom means you can do anything that comes to mind; to over indulge, walk where ever they want to, take or kill if they want to.

Freedom can not be found in many activity's such as the above mentioned. No it can not.

Sin rots the soul. The wages of sin is death. What is sin? Sin is missing the mark, lowering oneself. Greed and lust are two of the deadly sins and most probably the top two. Sin is about bondage and slavery. Sin causes many illnesses to manifest in the body.

A lot of people may think God does not want us to have any fun. God wants us to be free. God created us to love and worship Him. Sin is not healthy for humans yet we fight hard to have this so called privilege. When the real deal of freedom is to be without sin.

Greed, lust, vanity, gluttony, sloth, envy, and wrath lead us into bondage. These sins are deeply embedded in human life. Out of these sins emotions such as fear and shame arise. Can anyone deny that these things are bad?

Science that we respect today is the Illuminate that so many people are starting to be concerned about. Science is attempting to prove God 's law is for naught. The farther society moves away from God's law the more enslaved the inhabitants of the earth will be. Let us move more towards God' love and law.

Jesus said:You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. John 8:32.

[Original_Intent]

Many people think freedom means you can do anything that comes to mind; to over indulge, walk where ever they want to, take or kill if they want to. Freedom is the ability to choose, not the ability to avoid consequences.


Freedom can not be found in many activity's such as the above mentioned. No it can not.

Sin rots the soul. The wages of sin is death. What is sin? Sin is missing the mark, lowering oneself. Greed and lust are two of the deadly sins and most probably the top two. Sin is about bondage and slavery. Sin causes many illnesses to manifest in the body. I don't feel qualified to rank the deadly sins. I am doubtful that any are more common or more deadly than pride though.


A lot of people may think God does not want us to have any fun. God wants us to be free. God created us to love and worship Him. Sin is not healthy for humans yet we fight hard to have this so called privilege. When the real deal of freedom is to be without sin. I believe God created us to have joy, but I agree with you that the only way to have joy is by following certain eternal laws. I disagree with you that freedom is to be without sin. Freedom is the ability to choose. I do agree with you that sin does enslave the sinner and results in a loss of freedome.


Greed, lust, vanity, gluttony, sloth, envy, and wrath lead us into bondage. These sins are deeply embedded in human life. Out of these sins emotions such as fear and shame arise. Can anyone deny that these things are bad? Agreed


Science that we respect today is the Illuminate that so many people are starting to be concerned about. Science is attempting to prove God 's law is for naught. The farther society moves away from God's law the more enslaved the inhabitants of the earth will be. Let us move more towards God' love and law. I disagree that science = the illuminati. Sounds like someone saw Angels and Demons. Religions and Science should not be at odds, true relgion should embrace true science. Some truths can only be recalld spiritually. The big danger is when relgion masquerades as science and vice versa.

For example, the church rejecting Copernican theories because it did not match what was in the bible - that is relgion trying to take on the role of science.

Global warming is an example of science that is more of a religion than true science - they highlight any data that support their theories and discard or ridicule any evidence that does not agree with their theory (or their agenda) True science should be a search for the actual truth, not looking for evidence to support the way you want things to be.


Jesus said:You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. John 8:32.

[Mosheh Thezion]

Obedience to God, has nothing to do with freedom.

Freedom... has everything to do with not having to be obedient to other men.

And that freedom, as the intent of the founding fathers, is based on the common law concept of a sovereign people.

Where we are all kings and queens.. with no sovereign above us.

But... we must act.... as kings and queens, and not attack each other, or attack each others property, because that leads to war.

This lead the concepts of gentlemen and ladies... and being just that.

Sadly.. with the lose of freedom since 1933.... the people have lost the impulse to be gentlemen and ladies... and have become thugs and whores.... NOT ALL... but far to many just dont care anymore.

-MEMAT

[BeFranklin]

Where we are all kings and queens.. with no sovereign above us.


Common law is based right from the bible here, with the american continental army singing that they would "have no king but God" (independence song by william billings).

We are kings only as God has made kings and priests to him, who is also called King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Also one of the first supreme court justices and one of the signers of the declaration of independence wrote a book on law tracing property rights all the way back to Genesis in the bible and God, who gave man to be stewards on the earth.

[BeFranklin]

America's Independence Anthem

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

William Billings was one of the most well known and regarded hymn writers and music composers around the time of the American Revolution. He edited the first “New England Psalm Singer (1770), which was engraved by Paul Revere. William Billings is especially known for his hymns which were song by the American army, including “Chester”, a battle hymn, and the “Independence Anthem”, America’s first anthem which was also sung as a dedication at the closing of the war. That last song is probably, in regard to the previous discussion, one of the things that spread the “No King But God” most from lip to lip and battalion to battalion, (literally).

http://books.google.com/books?id=N7I...YPES#PPA594,M1
Lippincott's Magazine
See also:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0ni...esult#PPA58,M1
George Washington Day by Day By Elizabeth Bryant Johnston

"As the anthem has never been placed within reach of the general public (1882), I reproduce it here entire.
The reader may imagine it as being sung by a choir, the whole army joining in the chorus :"

The States, O Lord! with songs of praise
Shall in thy strength rejoice,
And, blest with thy salvation, raise
To heaven their cheerful voice.

Chorus.

To the King they shall sing, Halleluiah!

Thy goodness and thy tender care
Have all our foes destroyed.
A cov'nant of peace Ihou mad'st with us,
Confirmed by thy word.
A covenant thou mad'st with us,
And sealed it with thy blood.

To the King they shall sing. Halleluiah !

And all the continent shall sing,
"Down with this earthly king.
No king but God."

To the King they shall sing, Halleluiah !

And the continent shall sing,
"God is our rightful King. Halleluiah !"
And the continent shall sing,
" God is our gracious King. Halleluiah !"
May his blessings descend,
World without end,
On every part of the continent.
May harmony and peace
Begin and never cease,
And may the strength increase
Of the continent.
May American wilds
Be filled with his smiles,
And may the nations bow
To our royal King.
May Rome, France, and Spain,
And all the world, proclaim
The glory and the fame
Of our royal King.

God is the King. Amen.
The Lord is his name. Amen.
Loud, loudly sing
That God is the King.
May his reign be glorious,
America victorious,
And may the earth acknowledge
God is the King.
Amen. Amen. Amen.

[BeFranklin]

FYI - the first person that marked the thread a zero rating - and its a thread in Christian outreach. Your bigotry is showing.

[Working Poor]

This is not meant to be an offense to anyone I put it here because this is the "Christian Outreach" forum. Jesus offended people and the cross is offensive. I do need to face the reality that is is offensive for most people to hear Jesus's message. It is alot like how what Ron Paul says offends the Federal Reserve and the Government.


I hope all of you know that Ron Paul is a Christian. I believe the Lord has taught him about freedom. Those who are not Christian need not try and dispute what you do not wish to accept or cannot understand.

Christians are waking up. Many of them have gotten too comfortable. I personally believe Ron Paul's message of freedom is appropriate for Christians and Jesus message of freedom is also appropriate here.

If you feel offended that is between you and God. If you agree with Ron Paul's message of freedom perhaps it would serve you well to understand the principals Ron stands on.

I am sure Ron Paul knows the wages of sin is death. He is a physician and knows more about life and death than many people. Ron Paul is a Christian.

[Icymudpuppy]

Jesus said:You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. John 8:32.

__________________
Siddhartha said: "Believe nothing no matter who said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

[Mosheh Thezion]

Common law is based right from the bible here, with the american continental army singing that they would "have no king but God" (independence song by william billings).

We are kings only as God has made kings and priests to him, who is also called King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Also one of the first supreme court justices and one of the signers of the declaration of independence wrote a book on law tracing property rights all the way back to Genesis in the bible and God, who gave man to be stewards on the earth.



AND...??? I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS.

JESUS... is cool by me.

The issue of sovereign freedom, has to do with the people who founded this country wanted to be free of the tyranny of the kings of europe.

and the only way to insure this, was the common law, designating the people as sovereigns themselves.. so that no king could be established above them.

but.. in 1933.. they took that away... and the wealthy of earth have taken it away, by making the federal government the one sovereign and we... the people its subjects once again.

It is wrong.

the super rich, once again, have control, by owning the federal reserve, and controlling our government which is no longer constitutional, and so, we.. the people have lost the protection of the constitution, and they forced on us the debt slavery which the founding fathers tried so hard to aviod.

the constitution must be restored, and the sovereignty of the people restored, and the FEderal government.. must be put in its place as the servant of the people, and not the other way around.

freedom can be restored, if we care enough about getting it back.

-MEMAT

[LibertyEagle]

Please stay on-topic per the thread's intent. All others will be deleted, per forum guidelines.

Thanks.

[Working Poor]

I case everybody is not aware this thread is in the "Christian Out Reach" forum. This thread was not started to debate Christianity. It was started to reach out to Christians, the people who are into Jesus's message.

You are welcome to add comments if you are not Christian as long as the topic is respected and you don't try to inflame anyone.

I think it is very important to get more Christians on board with Ron Paul's message of freedom and to connect it to Jesus message of freedom.

[torchbearer]

If god gave us free will and the natural law, any man who decides they can alter or abolish God's decrees is putting himself in the place of God.

There is true value in living a righteous life by choice.
There is little value in living a righteous life because you are forced to by law.

God is the only person who has authority over a human being.
The lord is my shepard, I shall not want.

All of the above statements would side with liberty and Ron's message.
Make the connections, and Christians can't deny the truth.

The Christians have been misled, God's will is for us to be free, not enslaved.

[BeFranklin]

AND...??? I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS.

JESUS... is cool by me.

The issue of sovereign freedom, has to do with the people who founded this country wanted to be free of the tyranny of the kings of europe.

and the only way to insure this, was the common law, designating the people as sovereigns themselves.. so that no king could be established above them.

but.. in 1933.. they took that away... and the wealthy of earth have taken it away, by making the federal government the one sovereign and we... the people its subjects once again.

It is wrong.

the super rich, once again, have control, by owning the federal reserve, and controlling our government which is no longer constitutional, and so, we.. the people have lost the protection of the constitution, and they forced on us the debt slavery which the founding fathers tried so hard to aviod.

the constitution must be restored, and the sovereignty of the people restored, and the FEderal government.. must be put in its place as the servant of the people, and not the other way around.

freedom can be restored, if we care enough about getting it back.

-MEMAT

If you want to reach out to many conservative Christians, you need to know that the concept of sovereignty didn't start with making people simply sovereign, but sovereigns under God. It appears to have been a widespread movement. No king but God was a common saying at one time.

Tracing the history of our founding back to its christian roots is one way to reach out to fellow Christians in a political movement.

[torchbearer]

Tracing the history of our founding back to its christian roots is one way to reach out to fellow Christians in a political movement.

Yeah, that is basically what I'm saying- I think we have enough knowledge to do this together. I don't know the minds of the Christians who have been led astray by media propaganda and cultural pressures. I can't even fathom what makes them tick or motivated.
If we can figure this out, we can then actively seek to educate them in a way that will be receptive.

[BeFranklin]

Yeah, that is basically what I'm saying- I think we have enough knowledge to do this together. I don't know the minds of the Christians who have been led astray by media propaganda and cultural pressures. I can't even fathom what makes them tick or motivated.
If we can figure this out, we can then actively seek to educate them in a way that will be receptive.

We'll have to think about it some. I have ideas. Maybe God will grant a way to spread the pro-liberty message he founded the country with.

[torchbearer]

Maybe God will grant a way

If God was going to do it, then we wouldn't need to worry about it at all.
I think the whole idea of free will is.... what are you going to do about it?
This is your life- he gave you. What are you going to do with it?
Don't leave things for God to do.

I know you have ideas- just throw them out in this thread. I think this is important, not just for our political movement, but for Christianity in general.
This could be your way of leading God's children back in the right direction. I think that is very important.

[Working Poor]

I know you have ideas- just through them out in this thread. I think this is important, not just for our political movement, but for Christianity in general.
This could be your way of leading God's children back in the right direction. I think that is very important.

I think you are right torchbearer.

[GunnyFreedom]

If any Christian advocates the government regulation of the Church (ie- protection of marriage act) then you know already they have lost the path. A REAL Christian should believe that the Church is ABOVE the Gov't, and therefore not subject to any such gov't legislation. Furthermore, I have for 15+ years been disgusted at how the Church is so very willing to give up it's freedom of speech in exchange for a 501c(3) tax exempt status....

[BeFranklin]

If God was going to do it, then we wouldn't need to worry about it at all.
I think the whole idea of free will is.... what are you going to do about it?
This is your life- he gave you. What are you going to do with it?
Don't leave things for God to do.

I know you have ideas- just throw them out in this thread. I think this is important, not just for our political movement, but for Christianity in general.
This could be your way of leading God's children back in the right direction. I think that is very important.

Maybe I should have said "open a way". God helps in the affairs of men, and sometimes you can see when he is about to do so.

[BeFranklin]

If any Christian advocates the government regulation of the Church (ie- protection of marriage act) then you know already they have lost the path. A REAL Christian should believe that the Church is ABOVE the Gov't, and therefore not subject to any such gov't legislation. Furthermore, I have for 15+ years been disgusted at how the Church is so very willing to give up it's freedom of speech in exchange for a 501c(3) tax exempt status....

There was a recent court case (last couple of weeks) that modified this. Not sure what it exactly said since I skimmed it for later reading. But the impression was, next election there may be no restriction from mentioning candidates and positions in church.

[GunnyFreedom]

There was a recent court case (last couple of weeks) that modified this. Not sure what it exactly said since I skimmed it for later reading. But the impression was, next election there may be no restriction from mentioning candidates and positions in church.

that's a good thing; but it should have been the CHURCH refusing to give up their right to free speech, not the STATE giving it back to them.

[Working Poor]

I think many people who like Ron Paul are afraid to talk about Ron Paul being Christian. They find it difficult to equate the freedom Jesus offers with the kind of liberty RP stands for in congress.

Many Christians were duped by GW Bush with all his campaign banter about abortion and gay marriage. Many Christians believed it was right to go into Iraq. Now Christians are fleeing Iraq. Can that happen here?

Many Christians believe we are living in end times and are just going thru the motions of being human on this planet. What I would like to say to Christians on this is we don't know for sure that these are end times or when Jesus might return.

We have to continue to stand up for righteousness no matter what even if this end times you still must stand for love. In love and faith we can stand for liberty.

We as Christians know in our hearts the freedom that Ron Paul is promoting is about love. Look at how the world opposes Ron Paul. I believe this is because evil knows a real Christian when it sees one. Ron Paul loves life this is why he is a doctor and he knows about sin and death. Ron Paul is against abortion but he knows that even if it is made illegal by the government it will not stop abortion. Abortion happened even when Jesus walked the earth. Jesus did not mention abortion or gay marriage even once.

Freedom also protects you from having an abortion against your will. If you think you cannot in some future time be made to have an abortion look at China.

The freedom that Jesus taught about by knowing the truth is righteous freedom. Freedom from the death of sin. Ron Paul understands that liberty is right for the people. He is wise enough to know that crime and poverty will not go away no matter how many laws are on the books.

He knows not everyone loves the Lord he knows there is no way to force people to love the Lord. He does want anyone who loves the Lord to be free to do so. He is working hard to keep government out of your personal and spiritual life. Support Ron Paul.

[torchbearer]

I think many people who like Ron Paul are afraid to talk about Ron Paul being Christian.

When I was promoting Ron to the local christians, the most common response I got was "what about THE gays!?" (you know, because Ron supports freedom)
The biggest issue on their mind was stopping an imaginary disease.
I had to ask if they thought they were going to catch THE gay. I guess I'm not the best person to talk to people who have no sense.

[Working Poor]

When I was promoting Ron to the local christians, the most common response I got was "what about THE gays!?" (you know, because Ron supports freedom)

Keep church and state separate is the best topic of rebuttal on this.

I wonder when Jesus said anything about gay marriage or abortion? Jesus said love one another and love your enemy. Abortion is not new and neither is homosexuality. In the Lord a homosexual maybe a eunuch. It is not up to christians to try and regulate the sexuality of non christians. Someone who is a part of the church is a different story gay marriage can be banned in the church.

On abortion it needs to be noted that the right to not have an abortion is what needs to be protected because abortion and infanticide has been around since the beginning of time.

Both of these so called issues should not even be a part of politics and christians need to see that the power of their vote is being used and they are being deceived by politicians who make this a part of their platform.

[GunnyFreedom]

Keep church and state separate is the best topic of rebuttal on this.

I wonder when Jesus said anything about gay marriage or abortion? Jesus said love one another and love your enemy. Abortion is not new and neither is homosexuality. In the Lord a homosexual maybe a eunuch. It is not up to christians to try and regulate the sexuality of non christians. Someone who is a part of the church is a different story gay marriage can be banned in the church.

On abortion it needs to be noted that the right to not have an abortion is what needs to be protected because abortion and infanticide has been around since the beginning of time.

Both of these so called issues should not even be a part of politics and christians need to see that the power of their vote is being used and they are being deceived by politicians who make this a part of their platform.

The approach I usually took, which seemed to work (most of the time), was asking them if they really wanted the Government to legislate church doctrine. If church doctrine was subject to the whims of the government, I would tell them, sure it's all fine and well when a Christian you agree with is in office...but what happens when we set the precedent that the government can legislate church doctrine, and then America elects a radical anti-christian?

[asimplegirl]

That is an interesting way of putting it, Glen.

[georgiaboy]

Jesus was the freeest (sic) individual on the planet in all history, could do anything he wished, and he chose to live a perfect sinless life in complete obedience to the Father.

I worship this Dude.

[torchbearer]

Jesus was the freeest (sic) individual on the planet in all history, could do anything he wished, and he chose to live a perfect sinless life in complete obedience to the Father.

I worship this Dude.

Golden.

[Working Poor]

The truth will make you free.

[KenInMontiMN]

Adopt the divine viewpoint, if you're willing to grant the possibility of a universe created by a divine being.

Attributes of that universe, for those thrust within-

1.)attachment to matter: from which follows the continuous experience of time occurring one cross-sectional slice after another. With mass comes stretched-out time; no mass, all time is compressed into the same instant. Same with distance- with mass comes expanded distance; no mass, all distance is compressed into a geometric point, an infinitely small singularity.

2.)Expanded time and distance allow for the possibility of experiencing cause and effect, action and consequence. Collapsed time and distance allows no such viewpoint, rather all actions and consequences are simultaneous and structurally unitary- one, essentially.

3.)Action and consequence, cause and effect, are the building blocks of free will. The universe is a construct designed to allow choices to be made, with an array of potential consequences. The universe is a 'free will' machine.

The hypothetical creator built a free will machine- for purposes open to speculation.

Two questions- if we go to excessive lengths to insure a minimization of free will in favor of maximized security and very limited choices- aren't we acting in direct opposition to the purpose of the creation? If we eventually succeed in suppressing free will entirely, through heavy-handed preventative measures of the state- is there any purpose to the universe any longer? How will the creator separate his wheat from his chaff? Build a new machine, junk out the old one?

[Working Poor]

God is the ultimate recycler I think.