"If You Can't Beat Them, Join Them"

[Theocrat]

You've all the heard the phrase "If you can't beat them, join them." Well, I'd like to apply that phrase to an institution which I feel many members here are either afraid of or have hatred for. That institution is law enforcement. Rather than take a defeatist position about this, I would like to suggest that we look at this as an opportunity for great potential in the cause of liberty, equality of law, and respect for human property and dignity. Many of us could join our local police departments and other law enforcement agencies and seek to make changes from the inside. The "police state" of our country can be subsided if we're up to the challenge.

We all know too well the abuses of police powers around the country, and what better way to remedy these abuses than by setting the example as respectful law enforcement officers in the cause of liberty. After all, there may be many laws on the books written by unwise legislators, but who's going to enforce them ultimately? The first line of application of the law to the public resides with the police, not legislators. At our discretion, we could empower citizens in the cause of liberty, not by violent force of arms and intimidation, but through service and education as to what our laws should be about.

With the current state of our economy bringing a huge number of job losses and a substantial increase in government jobs to come, it seems to me that law enforcement will be just one of those positions which we will never be rid of and always in high demand. We should no longer fear or be angry at those called to "serve and protect" us, but rather, we should meet them on their own grounds. Sure, this may take some time to work within the system and change the way law enforcement is supposed to be limited, but I say it's a venture worth taking, for those willing to do it. Otherwise, we may continue to subject ourselves to stories of police brutality and increases in policing surveillance with no hope of things changing for the better.

[Objectivist]

And when the Chief or Mayor tells you that you can't arrest illegal immigrants what will you do?

[Theocrat]

And when the Chief or Mayor tells you that you can't arrest illegal immigrants what will you do?

Cite the law or statute which forbids illegal immigration, and carry out the arrest anyway. Let the courts decide the constitutionality of the action you've taken.

[Working Poor]

Cite the law or statute which forbids illegal immigration, and carry out the arrest anyway. Let the courts decide the constitutionality of the action you've taken.

and you will be fired if you make too many of these types of arrest that go against orders.

[sdczen]

Don't become part of the law enforcement. You would be better off stacking the city council with RP minded people. Then run for city mayor and sheriff. Then, you can give the orders from the top down.

I believe most cops are good at heart, they've just been seduced by the power they hold. And remember, most, if not all police forces have become a revenue generator for the cities. If I was mayor of a city, I would put a halt on all police shaking down the public for minor BS offenses. It's time to really protect and serve!

[Theocrat]

Don't become part of the law enforcement. You would be better off stacking the city council with RP minded people. Then run for city mayor and sheriff. Then, you can give the orders from the top down.

I believe most cops are good at heart, they've just been seduced by the power they hold. And remember, most, if not all police forces have become a revenue generator for the cities. If I was mayor of a city, I would put a halt on all police shaking down the public for minor BS offenses. It's time to really protect and serve!

We need people to become both police officers and public officials. It shouldn't have to be an "either, or" issue.

[Theocrat]

and you will be fired if you make too many of these types of arrest that go against orders.

You don't know that for sure. Have faith in doing the right thing, and God will bless you.

[Brassmouth]

[rph edit- post content deleted - please read the forum guidelines (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22). Rebut the message, don't head-butt the messenger, thanks]


+ Insulting or personally attacking other users is not allowed by any member.

+ If you are to be critical of another users ideas or message please do so in a respectful manner. It is possible to discuss your points as to why you feel the way you do, ideally you should include alternate suggestions or acknowledge you have none.

[heavenlyboy34]

Government police use coercive force against the population. Thanks but no thanks-I prefer to be ethical. :) (besides, theo-"resistance to tyranny is obedience to God". ;) :) )

[Theocrat]

Ladies and gentlemen, these are the words of a repressed sociopath itching to justify brutish, cowardly, disgusting behavior (ie being a tax-leeching gunman for the state) with libertarianism. Don't be fooled.

Now I know why your username is "Brassmouth". You speak as if someone has punched you in your mouth with brass knuckles. There is no "teeth" to your arguments. Obviously, you cannot discern the difference between good cops and bad cops.

[heavenlyboy34]

Ladies and gentlemen, these are the words of a repressed sociopath itching to justify brutish, cowardly, disgusting behavior (ie being a tax-leeching gunman for the state) with libertarianism. Don't be fooled.

FWIW, I don't recall Theo ever claiming to be a libertarian. A well-intentioned, but sadly misguided conservative, IMHO. :) ~hugs Theo~

[disorderlyvision]

fuck cops!
/end

[Reason]

Have faith in doing the right thing, and God will bless you.

><

[Carson]

And when the Chief or Mayor tells you that you can't arrest illegal immigrants what will you do?


Quit!


and find another job. Hopefully for someone honest.

[Carson]

Here is my two-step plan.

We may have to kiss the keisters of the illegal invaders, it is still a felony to aid and abet them.

If some honest men and women in law enforcement, would go after the lowlifes in the government, business, and the general population that have been aiding and abetting them, by the time they had enough of a handle on the job to raise their heads and look around, I don’t think many illegal aliens would still be left.

We don't need any new laws to do this either. Just some honest men and women in law enforcement that take their oaths of office seriously!

Finding them is the first step!



Federal Immigration and Nationality Act

Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)

"Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

[torchbearer]

Instead of taking action against poor mexicans, we should gather our pitchforks and take out the crackheads in DC

[Conza88]

Become a parasite... to defeat parasites?

/palm

[dr. hfn]

i'd be for completely open immigration if we didn't have forms of federal welfare. we all have to pay for those illegal immigrants.

before you go and become a cop, you should get your sheriff a copy of Sheriff Richard Mack's "County Sheriff America's Last Hope".

[Dieseler]

[rph edit- post content deleted - please read the forum guidelines (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22). Rebut the message, don't head-butt the messenger, thanks]

BAHAHAHAHA!
You got PWNT.
:D

Whoever posted the run for Council and Mayor idea.
I like that.
Top down Local FTW.
Add Sheriff and Chief of Police to that list.

[TurtleBurger]

"Come out of her my people!" Joining a corrupt organization is more likely to corrupt you than reform the organization. Dumping clean water into dirty water doesn't make the dirty water clean.

[anaconda]

Don't become part of the law enforcement. You would be better off stacking the city council with RP minded people. Then run for city mayor and sheriff. Then, you can give the orders from the top down.

I believe most cops are good at heart, they've just been seduced by the power they hold. And remember, most, if not all police forces have become a revenue generator for the cities. If I was mayor of a city, I would put a halt on all police shaking down the public for minor BS offenses. It's time to really protect and serve!

Bingo.

The cops are corrupt as hell and most all cover each others' ill deeds. I don't think they have a very honorable code of ethics. I wished it were different.

[mediahasyou]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=180523

[heavenlyboy34]

"Come out of her my people!" Joining a corrupt organization is more likely to corrupt you than reform the organization. Dumping clean water into dirty water doesn't make the dirty water clean.

This is why I don't participate in the 2 party system. ;):D

[Carson]

Being a policeman sounds like the worst job there is to me.

You've got to go around looking for the worst in people and then making something of it.

There is good and bad in everything and in all people. Most of them know what their mistakes are and are capable of learning form them and becoming better people with out any intervention.

Also there is times when we could use some help.

Personally I would wait until elected or a personal request made that may out weigh the life of looking for the bad in others. You give up the chance of going through life seeing the beauty in all things and hitting the jackpot on the road of life over and over and over.

We owe them some respect for making the sacrifice.


I think many of them are more unhappy about the way they have to do things in regards to illegal immigration than many of us are with them. Even though I give them a ration of bull for it.

[Theocrat]

"Come out of her my people!" Joining a corrupt organization is more likely to corrupt you than reform the organization. Dumping clean water into dirty water doesn't make the dirty water clean.

Well, you have to first establish objectively how and why law enforcement is evil. In other words, by what standard is it inherently corrupt, and is the standard you're using itself universal and necessary? It's similar to an anarchist who would argue that no one should be involved in offices of civil government because government is evil without giving a compulsory or absolute standard to judge such an institution as evil. So, once again, what makes law enforcement "dirty"? Is it the people, or the institution itself that you don't like?

[heavenlyboy34]

Well, you have to first establish objectively how and why law enforcement is evil. In other words, by what standard is it inherently corrupt, and is the standard you're using itself universal and necessary? It's similar to an anarchist who would argue that no one should be involved in offices of civil government because government is evil without giving a compulsory or absolute standard to judge such an institution as evil. So, once again, what makes law enforcement "dirty"? Is it the people, or the institution itself that you don't like?

There is such an objective standard, and it is well established by many anarchist and libertarian writers. It is the fact that government, by its nature, usurps freedom from individuals and intervenes in the free market. As to police, it is well established that they have no incentive to behave properly (as a security business would) because they have the "authority" of the State behind them.

I wonder what you've read to make you think that anarchists have no standard to make such judgments? Are you just guessing? It seems that typical autarchists' standards are much more objective and serious than yours.

Further reading:
(http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts224.html)America’s Police Brutality Pandemic (http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts224.html)


Rubicon in the Rear-View, Part I: Militarizing the Police (http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w49.html)


(http://www.lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson222.html)The American Police State (http://www.lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson222.html)


James Emerick Dean: Executed By the Police State (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/bothwell2.html)


I could find many more, but I think you get the point.

[Theocrat]

There is such an objective standard, and it is well established by many anarchist and libertarian writers. It is the fact that government, by its nature, usurps freedom from individuals and intervenes in the free market. As to police, it is well established that they have no incentive to behave properly (as a security business would) because they have the "authority" of the State behind them.

I wonder what you've read to make you think that anarchists have no standard to make such judgments? Are you just guessing? It seems that typical autarchists' standards are much more objective and serious than yours.

Further reading:
(http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts224.html)America’s Police Brutality Pandemic (http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts224.html)


Rubicon in the Rear-View, Part I: Militarizing the Police (http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w49.html)


(http://www.lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson222.html)The American Police State (http://www.lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson222.html)


James Emerick Dean: Executed By the Police State (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/bothwell2.html)


I could find many more, but I think you get the point.

Firstly, why should I or anyone else listen to what some anarchist and libertarian writers have to say about the so-called evils of civil government? What authority do their ideas have over me to warrant submission to their beliefs?

Secondly, civil government is not supposed to usurp freedom from individuals. Bad civil government usurps freedom from individuals, while good civil government usurps freedom from individuals who violate the rule of law (such as murder, theft, and perjury). Just because our civil government today intervenes in the free market does not reasonably suggest that civil government is supposed to act in such a fashion. You're just making a categorical mistake between a positive analysis (what is the case) and a normative analysis (what ought to be the case) about the nature of civil government.

Thirdly, it's awfully presumptuous of you to say that police officers have no incentive to behave properly (which you have not defined) when you have no idea what's in their hearts. Surely, there are many law enforcement officers who are moral men and have a respect for decency and the rule of law to punish criminals. You seem to blame bad cases of such things as police brutality and apply them to the whole of the law enforcement system. As I've stated before, there are good cops, and there are bad cops.

[heavenlyboy34]

Firstly, why should I or anyone else listen to what some anarchist and libertarian writers have to say about the so-called evils of civil government? What authority do their ideas have over me to warrant submission to their beliefs?

Secondly, civil government is not supposed to usurp freedom from individuals. Bad civil government usurps freedom from individuals, while good civil government usurps freedom from individuals who violate the rule of law (such as murder, theft, and perjury). Just because our civil government today intervenes in the free market does not reasonably suggest that civil government is supposed to act in such a fashion. You're just making a categorical mistake between a positive analysis (what is the case) and a normative analysis (what ought to be the case) about the nature of civil government.

Thirdly, it's awfully presumptuous of you to say that police officers have no incentive to behave properly (which you have not defined) when you have no idea what's in their hearts. Surely, there are many law enforcement officers who are moral men and have a respect for decency and the rule of law to punish criminals. You seem to blame bad cases of such things as police brutality and apply them to the whole of the law enforcement system. As I've stated before, there are good cops, and there are bad cops.

You should care what these writers say because you claim to understand the arguments, but clearly don't. I agree that Enlightenment thinkers intended civil government for "good", but it doesn't work in practice (as evidenced by the growing tyranny all around you). Keep in mind that the Enlightenment thinkers also had a tendency to assume that objectively good men would seek authority in an enlightened society (such as the U.S.), which proved wrong in the long run.

No, I don't know what is in an officer's heart, but I know that if a private agency's employees behaved the way that many of bad cops do, they would be fired immediately (whereas the State often simply slaps them on the wrist). I believe it is justifiable to blame the entire police system for the problem, because it is not subject to the same scrutiny that a private defense firm would be. As we well know, corruption at the top breeds corruption in the ranks. (This is not to say all cops are bad, but the system is bad, and its effects strongly tend to trickle down) Therefore, it has no natural incentive to provide quality service.

FWIW, the reason I make a positive analysis is that I am dealing with reality, not simply philosophy.

Nite nite! tty in the mornin. ~hugs~

[idiom]

Become the Mayor if you want to redirect the police activites. Or Sheriff. Thats good too.

[Njon]

For people who are not already in law enforcement, it's probably not a good idea to join. But if a Constitutionalist already has law enforcement experience, I say consider running for sheriff, as Alan Stang suggested at http://www.newswithviews.com/Stang/alan192.htm

It can make a big impact on stopping federal tyranny.

[diggronpaul]

This is a good idea, Theo, as these public safety offices must take an oath to their State
Constitutions, what a great foundation for standing one's ground against unlawful orders.

[Kraig]

Firstly, why should I or anyone else listen to what some anarchist and libertarian writers have to say about the so-called evils of civil government? What authority do their ideas have over me to warrant submission to their beliefs?

So you have to be convinced that someone's idea has authority over you before you will consider it?

[Theocrat]

So you have to be convinced that someone's idea has authority over you before you will consider it?

In matters of absolute truth, yes. We're not dealing with personal opinions here when we discuss whether civil government is inherently good or evil (or law enforcement, for that matter).