Part 2 of tobacco tax hike now in Congress - HR1676 - mailing tobacco to be a crime

[devil21]

The PACT Act was recently introduced. Obama and Congress wasn't content with just jacking up tobacco taxes across the board. Now, the bill to restrict online tobacco sales has been introduced to force everyone to participate in federal, state and local tobacco taxes.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.1676:

My favorite line of the bill:

(2) Hezbollah, Hamas, al Qaeda, and other terrorist organizations have profited from trafficking in illegal cigarettes or counterfeit cigarette tax stamps;
(3) terrorist involvement in illicit cigarette trafficking will continue to grow because of the large profits such organizations can earn;


As if Al Qaeda runs the Indian reservation smoke shops that this bill is targeting. :rolleyes:

The bill also makes mailing or shipping of cigarettes or smokeless tobacco 100% illegal. Of course cigars are exempt....presumably because most Congressman enjoy a good cigar and don't want their cheap tobacco to be affected. Fuckers.

Let your Reps know that strong arming citizens into paying the absurdly high and arbitrary "sin taxes" will not stand.

http://writerep.house.gov/writerep/

[cindy25]

can't they come up with a new excuse? I understand the NY and CA sponsors but whats with the Texan?

[werdd]

Oh boy, here we go again.

I have been ordering cartons from www.carolinacartons.com because they are non firesafe cigarettes, and remind me of why cigarettes were once worth your time smoking. Now they are going to take that away?

They are trying to close up every loophole, you will smoke fire safe cigarettes, and you will pay high taxes. FUCK THE GOVT!.

[werdd]

Just emailed my congressman. Also emailed my online outlet.

[phill4paul]

The social engineers are at it again. The statists in North Carolina have won a victory by denying private owners the right to run their establishments as they see fit.

Liberty is stolen in increments, applauded by the small-minded majority that believes the government works in their best interest, until their interest is put on the chopping block and applauded by another small-minded majority that think the government works in their best interest.

[Anti Federalist]

Just planted my tobacco seedlings yesterday.

Good timing I say.

[james1906]

I thought the Democrats cared about minorities and their plight. Now they're going to shut down Indian owned businesses? Fucking hypocrites.

http://www.senecacigarettes.org/ Good, cheap cigarettes that are Indian made in Canada, of course there have been attempts to shut them down. http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/602680.html

[Carole]

Where are best online buys on cigs?

[sluggo]

Government logic is remarkable.

It's obviously never occurred to them that criminal groups are taking advantage of a market CREATED by government mandated taxes and laws.

In short, our rulers are about to increase these group's profit margins yet again.

[phill4paul]

Just planted my tobacco seedlings yesterday.

Good timing I say.

Excellent news. It will be a little while longer for my transplants. Off to a late start on them.:(

[tangent4ronpaul]

Just planted my tobacco seedlings yesterday.

Good timing I say.

source for seeds?

thanks!

-t

[tangent4ronpaul]

Where are best online buys on cigs?

ping! - yeah - I wanna know too!

right now I cross state lines and that $55 carton of cigs turns into a $30-35 carton. Fucking socialist, scumbucket dictatorship! between my local nanny state and the nanny state fud guv I'm being bled dry!

-t

[sarahgop]

we must oppose taxes.

[phill4paul]

source for seeds?

thanks!

-t

Anti-fed recommended this company to me.

http://www.organicaseedco.com/tobaccoseeds.html

I got the Virginia Gold. I'll see how it does then decide if I want to try some blends next year.:)

[Ninja Homer]

Here's my favorite part:
"(6) unfair competition from illegal sales of cigarettes and smokeless tobacco is taking billions of dollars of sales away from law-abiding retailers throughout the United States;"

And here it is corrected:
"(6) unfair competition from untaxed sales of cigarettes and smokeless tobacco is taking billions of dollars of tax revenue away from law-makers throughout the United States;"

[phill4paul]

Here's my favorite part:
"(6) unfair competition from illegal sales of cigarettes and smokeless tobacco is taking billions of dollars of sales away from law-abiding retailers throughout the United States;"

And here it is corrected:
"(6) unfair competition from untaxed sales of cigarettes and smokeless tobacco is taking billions of dollars of tax revenue away from law-makers throughout the United States;"

I prefer undocumented sales of cigarettes. Makes it seem less illegal in some way. I think I've heard it before.;):D

[tangent4ronpaul]

Anti-fed recommended this company to me.

http://www.organicaseedco.com/tobaccoseeds.html

I got the Virginia Gold. I'll see how it does then decide if I want to try some blends next year.:)

thanks!

-t

[ItsTime]

Just planted my tobacco seedlings yesterday.

Good timing I say.

They will make that illegal soon

[dannno]

Are seeds exempt, too, or just cigars?

http://www.travelgolf.com/images/rush-limbaugh-cigar.jpg

http://content.barewalls.com/preview/x4/x4jm_clip.jpg

[phill4paul]

Is that a Monica Gold Clinton is smoking?

[werdd]

I thought the Democrats cared about minorities and their plight. Now they're going to shut down Indian owned businesses? Fucking hypocrites.

http://www.senecacigarettes.org/ Good, cheap cigarettes that are Indian made in Canada, of course there have been attempts to shut them down. http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/602680.html

Do you know if the lights have the white filter tips?

Theres something psychological about white filters for me, smoked marlboro lights for some time.

[Objectivist]

Not being able to mail tobacco will require know associates of people in prison to deliver it by hand, to the prison of the incarcerated individual. Before one could mail "care packages' to their friend in prison.

Better way for the government to keep track of potential bad guys?

[politicsNproverbs]

Infuriating all around. It's like they have gone mad lately, ramping up the pace in all their evil "destroy americans" plans.

I feel for the Indians that sell the cigs online and in the mail. There are a good handful of those around the country. They must be worried about all this.

[devil21]

So why the hell can't Congress move this quickly on HR1207?

HR1676 passed the House on May 21! Of course RP voted NAY but the final vote was 397 to 11!

It is now in the Senate as S.1147. Contact your Senators! Not that they'll listen to your commoner ass or anything but at least we can try. Might want to think about stocking up if you buy online.

[RSLudlum]

I ran across this article last year which points out that this kind of legislation will only further encourage smuggling. Walter Williams has always been a favorite of mine. :)




John Hancock and Cigarette Smuggling (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3646)
by Walter Williams (April 30, 2008)



While it's politically popular to impose confiscatory taxes on America's 40 million tobacco smokers, there are a number of consequences one might consider, but let's start out with a quiz. If a carton of cigarettes sells for $160 in New York City, and $35 in North Carolina, what do you predict will happen? If you answered tons of cigarettes will be going up I-95 from North Carolina to New York City, go to the head of the class.

Smuggling cigarettes is illegal; so the next quiz question is: Who is most likely to engage in cigarette smuggling? It's a mixed answer, but for the most part, organized smugglers will be people with a high disregard for the law. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has found that Russian, Armenian, Ukrainian, Chinese, Taiwanese, and Middle Eastern (mainly Pakistani, Lebanese, and Syrian) organized crime groups are highly involved in the trafficking of contraband and counterfeit cigarettes. What's worse is the ATF found that some of these groups use the money to provide material financial assistance to terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas.

Some smugglers are good people who differ little from the founders of our nation such as John Hancock, whose flamboyant signature graces our Declaration of Independence. The British had levied confiscatory taxes on molasses, and John Hancock smuggled an estimated 1.5 million gallons a year. His smuggling practices financed much of the resistance to British authority -- so much so that the joke of the time was that "Sam Adams writes the letters (to newspapers) and John Hancock pays the postage." Like Hancock, some of today's cigarette smugglers are providing a service to their fellow man caught in the grip of confiscatory taxation.

In my book, the Hancock-type smuggler is a hero of sorts. Let's look at it. During the days of the Soviet Union, Swiss watches were illegal. During our Prohibition era, the sale, manufacture and the importation of intoxicating liquor was illegal. Britain's Navigation Acts imposed high tariffs and restrictions on goods sold to the American colonies that ultimately led to our 1776 War of Independence. The common theme in all of these acts is government seeking to interfere with, regulate or outlaw peaceable voluntary exchange between individuals.

Tell me what's wrong in people wanting to wear a Swiss watch, having a drink, purchasing tea from a Dutch seller rather than an English seller, or cheap cigarettes from North Carolina rather than expensive ones from New York. People in government or those in pursuit of a do-good agenda think they know better and think they have a right to use government's brute force to hinder peaceable voluntary exchange.

In comes my hero the smuggler to the rescue. He's the guy who, in effect, tells us, "I know the government wants to interfere with your consumption of booze, tobacco, or tea, but I can get a deal for you." He might have to run clandestine operations, blackmail and corrupt public officials, but at least you get the item, if it has been prohibited, and for a lower price if it has been confiscatorily taxed.

The smuggler who uses the proceeds to finance destructive activity is not my hero, but that is not an argument against the smuggling itself anymore than it would be an argument against the practice of medicine if some medical practitioners used their earnings to finance terrorist activities.

The easy solution to cigarette smuggling, and its attendant activities, is to eliminate the confiscatory taxes. Unfortunately, for politicians and do-gooders, the attack on smokers is a moral crusade that sees only benefits and costs are irrelevant. Or as novelist C.S. Lewis put it, "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3646

[nobody's_hero]

I ran across this article last year which points out that this kind of legislation will only further encourage smuggling. Walter Williams has always been a favorite of mine. :)

Very good read, Rsludlum—thanks for sharing.

[acptulsa]

Another pro-global warming bill.

Say what? Simple. Higher taxes means smuggling is more profitable; therefore they're guaranteeing the problem won't go away. Make it illegal to ship them by parcel services, and you get extra vehicles on the highways. More global warming.

Wonder if those damned drug sniffer dogs will now be trained to alert on tobacco? Now, you and I both know that having half a pack of stogies in your console is not probable cause. And we both know that they'll try to use it as probable cause, too.

[KenInMontiMN]

re the questions about how much, google online cigarette sales, you'll come up w/hundreds of sites. Cartons can be had in the 10-20 dollars per carton range from a lot of different overseas places.

So how does the bill get after foreign shippers, or does it have teeth for biting the buyer, over and above collecting the tax if caught?

[tangent4ronpaul]

http://couponing.about.com/od/cigarettes/a/cig_credit.htm

Choking the Air Out of Online Cigarette Sales
Credit Card Companies Join Forces and Stop Online Cigarette Sales

By Donna L Montaldo, About.com

Bargain hunters who have enjoyed substantial savings by buying online cigarettes will have to find a new avenue to cut back on the cost of their smoking habit. Last week major credit card companies engaged in an agreement with the government to discontinue participating in Internet sales of cigarettes. In other words, you will no longer be able to charge your cigarette purchase from an Internet store to any major credit card company.

This nationwide agreement will assist the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to control cigarettes purchased across state lines and has gone into effect immediately.

Not only will the credit card companies refuse to allow smokers to charge their cigarette purchases but they will also take action against Internet companies that are found in violation of the cigarette sales state and federal laws.
It's Illegal?
What many consumers who have purchased tobacco products online in the past may not realize is that such purchases are against the law in several states.

Michigan taught many of their smokers a big lesson last month by sending 553 tax notices out to various consumers who made online cigarette purchases. They obtained the residents names by subpoenaing 13 online tobacco shops for names and the order history of Michigan customers. On the first round of tax bills sent the state of Michigan looks to collect $1.4 million or an average of $2,500 per person. Those individuals who received the tax bills had a deadline of March 14 to come up with the money.

"At its most fundamental level, this is an issue of tax fairness," State Treasurer Jay B. Rising said in a statement. "It is only right that out-of-state vendors, who conduct business only online and at arms length, follow the letter of the law. These taxes are collected by brick-and-mortar businesses in Michigan, and Internet vendors should not be allowed to skirt their responsibility."

"By working with all the major card companies, we will severely restrict the availability of the Internet retailers to make these illegal sales," said Spitzer, one of the lead attorneys general in the agreement.

Attorneys general from California, Oregon let the negotiations and Colorado, Idaho, Louisiana, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Vermont and Wisconsin also participated.
Big Brother May Be Watching
Smokers that are not afraid of being hunted down can still buy cigarettes online but they will have to pay for them with personal checks, money orders or some other payment arrangement.

[tangent4ronpaul]

http://www.stuffyourown.com/cito.html

Federal excise tax is 24.78 per pound - about 2.5 to 3 cartons. WOW! and then there is state tax...

list of online sellers:

http://www.smokinglobby.com/forum/about458.html
(there are additional ones in the thread - click through)

Yesmoke: http://www.yesmoke.ch
I am posting them in hopes that they deliver in the US again. Sad

*CigOutlet: http://www.cigoutlet.net

*CheapDiscoutCigarettesOnline: http://www.cheap-discount-cigarettes-online.net

*Shop4Smoker: http://www.shop4smokers.com

*CigarettesShop: http://www.cigarettes-shop.net

*CigarettesOnlineStore: http://www.cigarettes-online-store.net

*CigarettesForLess: http://www.cigarettesforless.com

*CheapCigUSA: http://www.cheapcigsusa.com

*CigMall: http://www.cigmall.net

* All of these vendors have the same prices and their sites are coincidentaly similar.... Confused

CigaretteExpress: http://cigarettesexpress.com

SmokersClub: http://smokers.com

BigDaddySmokes.com: http://bigdaddysmokes.com
Hey, if nothing else, their name is "classy" Wink

BrandCigarettes: http://brand-cigarettes.com

BigChiefCigarettes: http://www.bigchiefcigarettes.com/

EZSmokes: http://www.ezsmokes.biz/

AztecSmokes: http://aztecsmokes.com

E-Smokes: http://esmokes.com

[devil21]

^^^
The same prices and similar sites are all the same retailer just taking advantage of search engine optimization.

My seller of choice: www.oklahoma-outlet.com

[Pete]

I thought the Democrats cared about minorities and their plight. Now they're going to shut down Indian owned businesses? Fucking hypocrites.

http://www.senecacigarettes.org/ Good, cheap cigarettes that are Indian made in Canada, of course there have been attempts to shut them down. http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/602680.html

I used to smoke these years ago, and they were very good (like a Marlboro). When they stopped taking credit cards, I stopped ordering, but am going to check them out again with this latest price hike.

That report about them containing elevated levels of strontium and barium is a bit troubling. I wonder if it's true. Overall, these cigarettes seemed to have less additives because they caused less respiratory trouble. They also seemed to be less addictive.

Werdd: Yes, the lights have white filters.

[Rael]

Just planted my tobacco seedlings yesterday.

Good timing I say.

That sounds like the way to go. Eliminate all this bullshit by growing it yourself. Plus you have control over the finished project.

[SimpleName]

I start getting mail ordered smokeless tobacco on May 14th and this bill passes on May 21st. lol. Of course. It passed last year in the house I believe but fizzled in the Senate. I pray it has the same course this time around. But sooner or later, unless things change in this crumbling nation, it is inevitable. This bill will pass either this time around or next I'm sure. My representative already got a nice e-mail from me and my two Senators were warned. Of course, Arlen Spector will definitely listen I'm sure. UGH! Bob Casey is barely any better. I'll be especially pissed if this passes since you can't get Swedish "snus" in the US for the most part, so they'll be no recourse. ERRR!!!

[Terces]

Don't smoke, but I emailed my Rep.