This is WHO controls AMERICA watch as the CONGRESS CRITTERS stumble

[Falseflagop]

over themselves and bow down to the power in this country as they get ready to slam thru the HATE CRIME BILL!! Who would have ever thought pathetic!! These are true patriots?

YouTube - Recap of 2009 AIPAC Policy Conference (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Fs73XZqm8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpulsemedia%2Eorg%2F&feature=player_embedded)

[Dieseler]

I wish Americans had that much political power in Washington.

[roho76]

This reminds me of the Terrorism video from the 2004 RNC.

YouTube - 2004 Republican National Convention (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcz4_JL5b7c)

This is by far my favorite political mash up of all time. The first time I heard this I laughed my ass off.

[RonneJJones]

It's called Psychic Driving!

[Liberty Star]

Not surprising that the war monger parasites are now pushing US to another pre-emptive war with Iran. Has Fox news issued the memo yet to its talking heads to start "Iran war month"?

If we are to go to war with Iran for another country, we better not rush to get troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Sadly only thing in their way is bad economy caused by last war and crash and arrest of some Wall Street fraudsters.

If Obama has any sense, he will cut off all aid that will force an end of Israeli occupation regime and war crimes against oppressed Palestinain people. That will drastically lower global terror temperature against America at no cost to tax payers.




Lets take a quick look at anti-American global terror roots and connection to Israel-Palestine issue:

Airplane Hijacking invented by Palestinian Christian group PLFP in 70s targetting Israeli and Westren planes

Bobby Kennedy killed by a Palestinian Christian refugee after he heard his pro-Israeli speech on TV to run for NY Senate

Abu Zubaida 9/11 plot central figure and now cited in special torture memos, a Palestinian muslim refugee. "Hanging Palestinian" is a special torture technique perfected by Israel that US also tried on detainees.
Palestine is given as number one reason in OBL letters after 9/11

Zarqawi that led Iraqi bombing campaigns, a Palestinian refugee


American public in its blind support for brutal Israeli occupation and policies still has its eyes covered thanks to a crooked media that seldom touches real facts about root causes of our problems.

[silverhawks]

If Obama has any sense, he will cut off all aid that will force an end of Israeli occupation regime and war crimes against oppressed Palestinain people. That will drastically lower global terror temperature against America at no cost to tax payers.

That would be the ideal world scenario...common sense and fiscal responsibility has been missing from the White House for quite some time now, to be replaced with warmongering and massive spending. More than likely what we'll see is a false flag attack against Israel to drag us into another conflict that we REALLY cannot afford, either in terms of American lives or our collapsing economy.

[virgil47]

Removing all aid to Israel would of course usher in the end times that many talk about. Without the USA's aid Israel would be facing three options: 1) cease to exist voluntarily 2) be over run and put to the sword 3) use nuclear weapons to prevent options 1 and 2. Give this some thought and tell me which option you think Israel would choose. I firmly believe that if the USA faced the same three choices we would opt for choice number three. If you do not agree please enlighten me.

[axiomata]

Removing all aid to Israel would of course usher in the end times that many talk about. Without the USA's aid Israel would be facing three options: 1) cease to exist voluntarily 2) be over run and put to the sword 3) use nuclear weapons to prevent options 1 and 2. Give this some thought and tell me which option you think Israel would choose. I firmly believe that if the USA faced the same three choices we would opt for choice number three. If you do not agree please enlighten me.
4) Use nuclear weapons as a deterrent.

[Lovecraftian4Paul]

Removing all aid to Israel would of course usher in the end times that many talk about. Without the USA's aid Israel would be facing three options: 1) cease to exist voluntarily 2) be over run and put to the sword 3) use nuclear weapons to prevent options 1 and 2. Give this some thought and tell me which option you think Israel would choose. I firmly believe that if the USA faced the same three choices we would opt for choice number three. If you do not agree please enlighten me.

Assuming what you say is true (very questionable in of itself), it's not our problem. Israel is not America. A true American puts this country first, not client states. Israel is not some primitive backwater, even if all military aid was ended tomorrow. They are perfectly capable of making and producing the weapons needed to defend themselves, far better than the Arab states are capable of making or launching offensive weapons to conquer them. In the end though, I just don't care either way. Israel should deal with Isreal's problems, it is not our responsibility to fight their battles, or ensure their existence. This has absolutely nothing to do with protecting this country.

[virgil47]

4) Use nuclear weapons as a deterrent.

Not an option when the fanatics that wish the destruction of Israel also have them. As you may have noticed Israel having nuclear weapons has not kept Hammas from firing thousands of rockets into Israel. It has also not stopped the indiscriminate bombing of it's citizens by the Palestinians. In order for Israel to defend itself using conventional weaponry on an ongoing basis it must not only have the military support of other countries it must also have the support of people everywhere that believe in the right of a country to exist. Without BOTH of these requirements being met nuclear weapons will become the only option left.

I for one have no desire to see the beginning of a nuclear war in my lifetime. The radical elements of Islam are not in the least concerned about dieing. In fact they welcome death as it would under their belief system be the most glorious thing imaginable.

Another point to ponder is: after Israel who is next in the sites of the radical Islamists? They don't like Jews but they also don't like Christians or those of any other religion. They hate homosexuals and atheists with a passion that has no bounds. Please consider the end results of your position on the middle east conflict before you continue bashing Israel.

[LibertyEagle]

Virgil,

It's not bashing Israel to state the fact that we are two separate countries. My first allegiance is to my fellow Americans.

I understand you support Israel, and you have every right to send every single dime you have to them. You also have the right, if they will accept you, to go to Israel yourself and help them in their wars. But, you do not have the right to steal from my pocket to do same.

Finally, I don't personally bear any animosity to Israel; I wish its people well. But, let's be honest here, Virgil. They have been caught numerous times SPYING on our country and worse. Do those sound like friends to you?

No, George Washington said it well.
http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/farewell/sd106-21.pdf

You know, if we minded our own business, Israel would no longer have to ask our permission before defending herself. That just might be a good thing for Israel.

[axiomata]

Not an option when the fanatics that wish the destruction of Israel also have them. As you may have noticed Israel having nuclear weapons has not kept Hammas from firing thousands of rockets into Israel. It has also not stopped the indiscriminate bombing of it's citizens by the Palestinians. In order for Israel to defend itself using conventional weaponry on an ongoing basis it must not only have the military support of other countries it must also have the support of people everywhere that believe in the right of a country to exist. Without BOTH of these requirements being met nuclear weapons will become the only option left.

I for one have no desire to see the beginning of a nuclear war in my lifetime. The radical elements of Islam are not in the least concerned about dieing. In fact they welcome death as it would under their belief system be the most glorious thing imaginable.

Another point to ponder is: after Israel who is next in the sites of the radical Islamists? They don't like Jews but they also don't like Christians or those of any other religion. They hate homosexuals and atheists with a passion that has no bounds. Please consider the end results of your position on the middle east conflict before you continue bashing Israel.

I'll start with asking where I bashed Israel.

I am of the belief that Israel would in fact be stronger without American aid assuming that all foreign aid is ended at the same time. Muslim countries get more aid than Israel.

I am also of the opinion that by receiving financial support from foreign countries, Israel is forced to moderate their response in order to keep favor with their sugar daddy. Israel has a right to defend herself when attacked. She also has a right to preemptively defend herself from an imminent attack. (I differentiate between preemptive war and preventive war. The former is theoretically acceptable though rare, the latter is impermissible.)

The leaders of Iran may be interested in attacking Israel, but there is no evidence that they and especially their vast population, are suicidal. Should Iran attack there is no doubt that Israel will respond. It also also likely that other western countries would, in such a situation, even if they had discontinued aid previously, come to Israel's defense.

[virgil47]

I concede that if all aid to all countries by all countries was ended Israel would have taken care of the Palestinian issue long ago. However having said that let me clear by saying ALL AID by ALL countries would have to cease and that is not in our power to accomplish. If any country were to provide support to the Palestinians or the Iranians would not it only be reasonable for the U.S. to then support Israel.

I agree that any support to Israel provided by the U.S. should be tendered without any strings attached. Unfortunately those in power in our country would like to control the entire world as opposed to just the U.S. During our revolutionary war the future U.S. received considerable aid from France with no strings attached and that aid greatly assisted our nations fight for freedom and independence.

As to the claims of Israeli espionage against the U.S. I'm absolutely certain that if you delve deeply enough you will find that we routinely spy on our allies as well. This has been deemed to simply prudent by the leadership of our countries. Of course there will always be a great hue and cry when these practices come to light but this is simply our respective governments misdirecting the public's attention from our own spying.

[virgil47]

I would be happy to continue this thread at a later time if you are interested but for now I must leave my keyboard for the more mundane things in life. Unfortunately I have yard work to do.

[devil21]

I concede that if all aid to all countries by all countries was ended Israel would have taken care of the Palestinian issue long ago. However having said that let me clear by saying ALL AID by ALL countries would have to cease and that is not in our power to accomplish. If any country were to provide support to the Palestinians or the Iranians would not it only be reasonable for the U.S. to then support Israel.

No, it wouldnt be reasonable because it's simply not our problem. I don't care if Russia hands Iran a nuke on a golden tray with which to wave at Israel. Israel is not our child and not our responsibility. I have no religious connection to Israel. But that's all moot because nowhere in the Constitution does it provide for giving aid to another country for their defense.



I agree that any support to Israel provided by the U.S. should be tendered without any strings attached. Unfortunately those in power in our country would like to control the entire world as opposed to just the U.S. During our revolutionary war the future U.S. received considerable aid from France with no strings attached and that aid greatly assisted our nations fight for freedom and independence.

It looks to me like it's Israel getting to dictate the strings. It's common knowledge that AIPAC essentially tells members of Congress to vote for everything pro-Israel or risk a smear campaign to oust them from Congress. And once again, mandating foreign aid to any country is unconstitutional.



As to the claims of Israeli espionage against the U.S. I'm absolutely certain that if you delve deeply enough you will find that we routinely spy on our allies as well. This has been deemed to simply prudent by the leadership of our countries. Of course there will always be a great hue and cry when these practices come to light but this is simply our respective governments misdirecting the public's attention from our own spying.

Did you hear the cheers in that video when Jane Harman was "introduced"? Obviously there were many in attendence that appreciated her help in aiding Israel's spying. What's interesting is that it has been revealed that while the Israeli spys had their charges dropped, the American that was accused of passing the secrets was convicted and sentenced to prison. You sound kinda like you are saying "Well everyone does it so whats the big deal?" Maybe you forget what website you are on but I doubt youll find many people here that support spying and meddling in other country's affairs.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

They have been caught numerous times SPYING on our country and worse. Do those sound like friends to you?

For me its not just that. The fact the Israelis are an apartheid government that we essentially prop up by means of our military aid is unconscionable. There is also the fact that if we, as Americans, use our natural right of Free Speech to say we think the Israeli government is not only manipulating our country (which should be repellent to anyone who really believes in liberty) but has gone out of its way to use its pet goons (AIPAC, SLPC) to silence anyone questioning them by leveling the 'Anti-Semite' charge.

Personally, I'm sick of the 'racism' BS being spouted by Zionists. Being Anti-Semitic means you look down on people of Semitic origin. The vast majority of Israelis aren't Semites. They aren't even part of the same Indo-European group.

[virgil47]

No, it wouldnt be reasonable because it's simply not our problem. I don't care if Russia hands Iran a nuke on a golden tray with which to wave at Israel. Israel is not our child and not our responsibility. I have no religious connection to Israel. But that's all moot because nowhere in the Constitution does it provide for giving aid to another country for their defense.

I'm glad that France didn't feel that way during our revolution. Under your line of thinking we should still be British. As for your not caring whether Russia hands Iran a nuke on a golden platter it is obvious that you do not understand the mind set of fundamentalist Islam. Our Constitution certainly does have a provision for rendering aid to a foreign country! That provision is called a treaty.

It looks to me like it's Israel getting to dictate the strings. It's common knowledge that AIPAC essentially tells members of Congress to vote for everything pro-Israel or risk a smear campaign to oust them from Congress. And once again, mandating foreign aid to any country is unconstitutional.

I believe these folks are called lobbyists. You know like the NAACP and the NRA. And again it is not unconstitutional to provide aid to a foreign country as treaties are not unconstitutional.

Did you hear the cheers in that video when Jane Harman was "introduced"? Obviously there were many in attendence that appreciated her help in aiding Israel's spying. What's interesting is that it has been revealed that while the Israeli spys had their charges dropped, the American that was accused of passing the secrets was convicted and sentenced to prison. You sound kinda like you are saying "Well everyone does it so whats the big deal?" Maybe you forget what website you are on but I doubt youll find many people here that support spying and meddling in other country's affairs.

Maybe you have forgotten what site you are on! Those that frequent this site are by and large interested in the survival of the USA. It is true that there is a vocal minority that are isolationists and believe in the ostrich theory but the vast majority understand the value of having friends in the world. They also understand the need to keep an eye on those who call themselves your friends.

[revolutionisnow]

Not an option when the fanatics that wish the destruction of Israel also have them. As you may have noticed Israel having nuclear weapons has not kept Hammas from firing thousands of rockets into Israel. It has also not stopped the indiscriminate bombing of it's citizens by the Palestinians. In order for Israel to defend itself using conventional weaponry on an ongoing basis it must not only have the military support of other countries it must also have the support of people everywhere that believe in the right of a country to exist. Without BOTH of these requirements being met nuclear weapons will become the only option left.

I for one have no desire to see the beginning of a nuclear war in my lifetime. The radical elements of Islam are not in the least concerned about dieing. In fact they welcome death as it would under their belief system be the most glorious thing imaginable.

Another point to ponder is: after Israel who is next in the sites of the radical Islamists? They don't like Jews but they also don't like Christians or those of any other religion. They hate homosexuals and atheists with a passion that has no bounds. Please consider the end results of your position on the middle east conflict before you continue bashing Israel.

LOL The propaganda is strong with this one

How many people do you think are "radical Islamists"? How about all these Radical Zionists? Like the ones in the AIPAC video or these people YouTube - Rapture Ready: The Christians United for Israel Tour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig)

Or maybe you think since they wear suits instead of military garb they can not be radicals? Since they preach their message of hate in a church instead of a mosque? Or is it since they have tv and news access instead of releasing a grainy video over the web? Or maybe it is since they order someone else's kids to go fight instead of fighting themselves? The radical zionists are not concerned about our soldiers or the people of the countries they attack dieing.


And yes all aid should be cut off from Israel. The Jewish people and Zionist Christians can donate money privately if they wish. Go ahead and emigrate there and join the IDF if they wish. But American kids should not be forced to go fight Israel's wars, and dual allegiances should not be permitted. That is called TREASON. Just imagine if there was a JIPAC or CIPAC, which lobbied politicians for the interests of Japan or China, and suggested that we go fight wars for them also.

[virgil47]

For me its not just that. The fact the Israelis are an apartheid government that we essentially prop up by means of our military aid is unconscionable. There is also the fact that if we, as Americans, use our natural right of Free Speech to say we think the Israeli government is not only manipulating our country (which should be repellent to anyone who really believes in liberty) but has gone out of its way to use its pet goons (AIPAC, SLPC) to silence anyone questioning them by leveling the 'Anti-Semite' charge.

By apartheid do you mean as the U.S. is in regards to Native Americans or do you mean they are segregationists as in Great Britain and India to just name a few. Hmm, I guess you believe that AIPAC and SLPC are guilty of the same thing the NAACP is guilty of every time it plays the race card to control our congress.

Personally, I'm sick of the 'racism' BS being spouted by Zionists. Being Anti-Semitic means you look down on people of Semitic origin. The vast majority of Israelis aren't Semites. They aren't even part of the same Indo-European group.

Shall we rephrase your little diatribe to say"personally, I'm sick 'racism' BS being spouted by people of color". Well I guess it could be said that it is you who is racist. Also for your personal education here is a freebie.


Sem⋅ite
   /ˈsɛmaɪt or, especially Brit., ˈsimaɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sem-ahyt or, especially Brit., see-mahyt] Show IPA
–noun
1. a member of any of various ancient and modern peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including the Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs.
2. a Jew.
3. a member of any of the peoples descended from Shem, the eldest son of Noah.

[revolutionisnow]

Just because language and history is able to be rewritten and published does not make it accurate.

[virgil47]

LOL The propaganda is strong with this one

How many people do you think are "radical Islamists"? How about all these Radical Zionists? Like the ones in the AIPAC video or these people YouTube - Rapture Ready: The Christians United for Israel Tour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig)

There are enough radical Islamists to kill thousands of people in New York. There also enough to start riots and burn a lot of private property in France. Oh, and there are more than enough to basically take over the Dutch. As for radical Christians I haven't seen any news about the blowing up buildings or flying planes into skyscrapers. Hmmm, seems to be an absence of news about the Zionists killing and maiming people for the terrible offense of believing in a different religion.

Or maybe you think since they wear suits instead of military garb they can not be radicals? Since they preach their message of hate in a church instead of a mosque? Or is it since they have tv and news access instead of releasing a grainy video over the web? Or maybe it is since they order someone else's kids to go fight instead of fighting themselves? The radical zionists are not concerned about our soldiers or the people of the countries they attack dieing.

The jihadists of the world very, very rarely wear military uniforms. They prefer to wear civilian clothing so they can hide amongst the women and children. As for ordering someone else's kids into battle I would hope that you are aware of the jihadists recruiting women and children to blow themselves up in the name of Islam. The jihadists are indeed not concerned with killing and maiming anyone that is unwilling to bow down to them and their religion.

And yes all aid should be cut off from Israel. The Jewish people and Zionist Christians can donate money privately if they wish. Go ahead and emigrate there and join the IDF if they wish. But American kids should not be forced to go fight Israel's wars, and dual allegiances should not be permitted. That is called TREASON. Just imagine if there was a JIPAC or CIPAC, which lobbied politicians for the interests of Japan or China, and suggested that we go fight wars for them also.

To my knowledge no American soldiers have lost their lives fighting for Israel. Guess what both Japan and China have very effective lobbyists.

[revolutionisnow]

The US invaded Iraq to secure Israel. It was in no way a threat to the USA. There have been other conflicts in the middle east also which the US would not be involved in if not for Israel.

[devil21]

Seems like someone's Megaphone icon was flashing today because of this thread.

[Jace]

...

[virgil47]

Fine words for a fledgling country that relied on no other country for raw materials or assistance in times of world war. As I stated earlier we must indeed keep a very close eye on those we treat with else they become our rulers.

[Jace]

...

[eOs]

To my knowledge no American soldiers have lost their lives fighting for Israel.

And what do you call the Iraq war? You think WE benefited from that?

http://www.antiwar.com/israeli-files.php

[Lord Xar]

Not an option when the fanatics that wish the destruction of Israel also have them. As you may have noticed Israel having nuclear weapons has not kept Hammas from firing thousands of rockets into Israel. It has also not stopped the indiscriminate bombing of it's citizens by the Palestinians. In order for Israel to defend itself using conventional weaponry on an ongoing basis it must not only have the military support of other countries it must also have the support of people everywhere that believe in the right of a country to exist. Without BOTH of these requirements being met nuclear weapons will become the only option left.

I for one have no desire to see the beginning of a nuclear war in my lifetime. The radical elements of Islam are not in the least concerned about dieing. In fact they welcome death as it would under their belief system be the most glorious thing imaginable.

Another point to ponder is: after Israel who is next in the sites of the radical Islamists? They don't like Jews but they also don't like Christians or those of any other religion. They hate homosexuals and atheists with a passion that has no bounds. Please consider the end results of your position on the middle east conflict before you continue bashing Israel.

I don't give two shits about Israel. Sorry. They made their bed, now they can sleep in it. I probably would have alot more sympathy if AIPAC and the special interests didn't have such a strangle hold on our political system. How can I be an unbiased specatator? But truth be told, If we had a shit-ton of italians directing and manipulating American policy I'd say the same thing about Italy. And I am italian.

I think this is true, you can't serve two masters. When the dual citizenship political masterminds make plans, who are they really serving and how can they serve unerringly when they owe allegiance two entities? they can't.

Maybe if we stopped all AID, Israel will get its act together and make peace. Maybe its socialistic culture would not survive, so they would have to supply themselves with their own means to wage wars.. instead of using and abusing American taxpayers and soldiers.

I have no sympathy, none. Like Ron Paul says, when you subsidize something, you get more of it. We supply Israel with the ability to wage war, so they do. Perhaps if we stopped, they would have to change their policies and outlook so they could get along with their neighbors. Let them run their own country and stop manuevering ours....

I also don't buy into the fear mongering.. ala, enemy of my enemy is my friend etc... I dont care that they hate christians. Let them hate. That doesn't qualify killing americans to wage a foreign war for special interests.. I just don't care.

[TechnoMage]

What follows is a post from a forum from long ago written by a Political Analyst ,


Liars must be fast dancers in order not to get caught. They either must have an excellent memory, or know that their trail has been erased or feel certain their audience will accept the lie knowing that it’s a lie. The PLO and the Palestinian people may be one of the greatest fabrications of our time. To construct a fabricated background, you must do it in small increments, piece by piece. It’s a shaky house of cards but only if its audience cares to shake the table. So, let’s look at the separate pieces.

Today an icon, carefully constructed for credibility, has fallen. Professor Edward W. Said, the eloquent voice of Palestinian causes has turned out to be a self-promoted fabrication. Often and loudly, he has impressed the world of Liberals with his eloquent description of his early life as a professional Palestinian refugee, turned out of his house by invading Israelis. Here, as is popular among the Palestinians, he remembers his alleged ‘roots’, his home, the trees around him and his youthful years - only to become a sympathetic refugee - now a voice for the Palestinians.

Careful research by Justus Reid Weiner (1) has disclosed that Said did not live in Jerusalem; his parents did not own a house there; nor did he go to school there. Weiner shows that Said lived a life of luxury in Cairo, Egypt with his well-to-do father who operated a successful stationary business. But, when Said launched his emotional diatribes against the Jews, it was from the soapbox of a terribly deprived and wronged Palestinian, forced from his home by Jews. He was the quintessential refugee, haranguing against the Jewish people against whom he pledged to seek vengeance - violently.

Said’s invented ‘life story’ infused his advocacy with moral authority. Weiner’s devastating article -- "‘My Beautiful Old House’ and Other Fabrications by Edward Said" -- drives a stake through Said’s integrity. If he were a reporter, he’d be fired. But, even though he has been exposed as a rank liar, he will not be fired from Columbia University where he is a tenured professor. For years he was a member of the Palestine National Council, the parent body of the PLO, which he resigned in 1991. Today he calls Arafat a traitor for signing peace agreements with Israel. (2)

Of course, in his propagandizing for the Arabs, Said rarely mentioned the reality of seven well-armed Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen and Saudi Arabia) pledged to attack the Jews and wipe out every man, woman and child. I will not repeat the methodical research that uncovered the Said Sham. You can find it in August 26th WALL ST. JOURNAL and NEW YORK TIMES. However, Said isn’t the first to fabricate his origins nor those of the "Palestinian people".

Let us consider Yassir Arafat, so carefully cleaned up by the West, particularly by the Clintons, from a well-documented terrorist into a diplomat and world statesman. Yassir Arafat also claimed to be born in Jerusalem but was actually born in Cairo, August 29, 1929, named Mohammed Abdel Rahman al Qudwa al-Husseini. Nor as he has claimed, is he related to the late Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Amin al-Husseini) or Faisel Husseini or any other Husseini clan of Jerusalem. There are 4 Husseini clans in the Land of Israel, none related. The Grand Mufti spent World War II in Berlin, urging Hitler to bring his killing machine to kill the Palestinian Jews to cleanse the land of Jews for the Arab people and Islam. Arafat learned with the Mufti about the politics of Arab nationalism in Palestine during that brief period. Clearly, Arafat desperately wanted to emulate the Grand Mufti and so invented his lineage, completing the fabrication.

Like Said, Arafat has played his "Palestinian" lie to the hilt.

However, before we go further, we must admit there are certain mitigating circumstances. The culture in the Middle East often finds that a fantasy is offered in place of reality as an explanation of why something happened, particularly when it has to do with a loss of pride and shame. The fabrication initially offered as the reason soon becomes irrefutable history - even to its inventor. As it is passed around, it becomes history with all of the supporting evidence simply pulled out of the air.

When seven Arab armies lost to untrained Jewish refugees straight out of Europe’s death camps in 1948, the Arabs claimed that the American military had interceded with superior force and air cover. Meanwhile, the vaunted Israeli Air Force of 1948 consisted of Piper Cubs forced to drop empty bottles with whistlers, merely to get the advancing Arab forces to duck. They ran, leaving their shoes in the sand. The embarrassment was humiliating, having bragged to the world and each other that the land would run with Jewish blood. Thus was born the fabrication that America had intervened because, clearly, the heroic Arab could not have lost to the lowly Jew.

The Arabs lost their second war in 1956 when Israel took over the Sinai. During the 1967 War, Egypt broadcast how it was winning the war and the Jews were retreating across all fronts. They invited Jordan’s King Hussein to join the attack to enjoy the expected victory. The Jordanians believed the fantasy and wishful thinking of victory. The Israelis, knowing better, begged Hussein to stay out of the war. Instead, the Jordanians attacked and lost all the land it had illegally occupied for 19 years from1948 to 1967, including the eastern half of Jerusalem. The Jordanians expelled all the Jews, destroyed all 58 synagogues in the Old City, defiled the Jewish cemeteries (especially the Mount of Olives), And they invented the fabrication that "east" Jerusalem was always Arab - a lie readily accepted by the West.

In 1964, 3 years before the 1967 Six Days War when Israelis retook the occupied Judea, Samaria, Gaza, the Old City of Jerusalem and the Sinai, the Egyptians backed the creation of the PLO terrorists to recover their lost pride. This was to be Yassir Arafat’s vehicle to fame and fortune.

Already in 1992, according to British Intelligence, even as Arafat claimed poverty, he had a personal fortune of $8-10 Billion dollars with an annual income of $1,500,000. (3) Yet, none of this money which was obtained from Arab nations (much by blackmail) was to be shared with the Palestinian people. Here again, the fiction of poverty was peddled to the Liberals of the world. Arafat, playing the poor rag-head, begging for alms to help his people, never intended to share his wealth or the money from the donor countries with his own people. His funds did build a terror organization which one day will be the key to disrupt Jordan, Saudi Arabia and export terror into America and Europe.

Perhaps the best and most believed fabrication are the claims that the Palestinians lived for hundreds and even thousands of years in the land the Romans named "Palestina" to conceal the Jew in Judea and the Israel in Eretz Yisrael. The well-researched and referenced book, "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters tells the true story of Arab immigration into Eretz Yisrael. (4) It tracks the opportunistic immigration of Arabs from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, etc. where poor fellaheen (peasants) moved from their poverty-stricken nations toward the prospects of employment and better health conditions from the Jews. The Arabs kept the Hebrew root of the original Israeli name within the Arabized name of their new settlements. When one looks at the foundations of these houses the Arabs claim, one finds the building foundation of Hebrew houses from ancient times. But, this does not stop the construction of a past that borrows the names of the extinct Philistines who were the adversaries of King Saul and King David. Say it and poof...it is a fact of history the West is supposed to honor and not ask questions.

It is, however, understandable that this mix of people would want the deep and recorded history similar to Egypt, Syria, Iraq. I do not blame them for inventing the past - but when the fabrication goes on to justify killing off of a truly ancient people - then it is time to call a halt to the fantasy.

There are big lies; there are little lies, but these Arab lies all add up to a very, very, very big lie.

The world media collaborates in these fabrications. Recently, when an Arab apartment building in the Palestinian Authority collapsed, trapping people inside, the Israelis instantly sent an extraction crew who masterminded the rescue, working with the Palestinians. However, when Israeli ambulances tried to come in to assist, they were turned away. Photos in the Arab and world press did not show the Israelis working to save Palestinians. Same thing during the Israelis very heroic efforts, arriving first, to assist those stricken in Turkey’s August 17th earthquake. You had to look hard in the world press to find the photos and stories of the Israeli rescues and health care, including finding several people still alive and delivering 13 babies. Creating the Biggest Lie necessitates never showing the Israelis in favorable or heroic light - only the negatives. Even some non-Zionist, Leftist Israelis are participating in the creation of this illusion. Israel’ s history books have been re-written by a confirmed non-Zionist and are being inserted into the impressionable minds of Israeli ninth graders this year, under the new Minister of Education, Yossi Sarid.

When agreements are made with the Arabs, signed and then abrogated, stories are floated as to why the agreements were not broken but that it was the other side who broke the agreements. Carl Jung, the renowned psychoanalyst, identified this syndrome where the aggressor blames the victim for what he intends to do, justifying the criminal’s planned aggression.

When hundreds of millions of dollars of American and European donor monies disappeared into the pockets of Arafat and his cronies, they simply stated that it wasn’t true, even ignoring the protests of their own Palestinian Committees. The Donors’ countries at first were frustrated but, finally accepted the idea that their money would simply not make it into building of the Palestinian infrastructure. The money was now to be considered ‘baksheesh’, a bribe to buy the good will of surrounding Arab countries, not to mention the trouble making capabilities of the PLO and its affiliates.

A wanna-be nation conceived in lies and nurtured in lies cannot but help to conduct all their business with the attitude that lying is OK because it gets them what they want without payment. With Billions of dollars flowing in without question or accountability, merely by pledging anything the donor wants to hear, why not continue the same modus operandi on all matters?

So, when Arafat subjugates his people as is the way with this friend of Saddam and Assad of Syria, then that will always be the way of the neo-State of Palestine. When Arafat and his top echelon become instant partners with Palestinian corporations; when Palestinian policemen terrorize small Palestinian businessmen to petty shake down schemes then that is the kind of a country, born out of lies and fantasies that it will always be.

###

1, "The False Prophet of Palestine" by Justus Reid Weiner WALL ST. JOURNAL Aug. 26, 1999 - adapted from the September issue of COMMENTARY MAGAZINE & "Israeli
Says Palestinian Thinker Has Falsified His Earlier Life" by Janny Scott NEW YORK TIMES August 26, 1999

2. "Professor of Lies" by Jeff Jacoby THE BOSTON GLOBE August 30, 1999

3. "Don’t Underestimate Arafat’s Bank Account" by Rachel Ehrenfeld WALL ST. JOURNAL EUROPE December 2, 1993

4. "From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine" by Joan Peters Harper & Rowe New York 1984

[devil21]

^^^^^^^^
Nice copy and paste job. SPLC archive maybe? What the hell does all that have to do with half of the US Congress showing up to kiss AIPAC's ass once a year? No other event short of an inauguration or a congressional session (even that's debatable!) brings that many Congressman together in one place at one time. That's pretty much what tells you who runs the show.

(Guess my Megaphone comment was correct)

[LibertyEagle]

over themselves and bow down to the power in this country as they get ready to slam thru the HATE CRIME BILL!! Who would have ever thought pathetic!! These are true patriots?

YouTube - Recap of 2009 AIPAC Policy Conference (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Fs73XZqm8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpulsemedia%2Eorg%2F&feature=player_embedded)

We seem to be getting a little off-track in this thread.

The big question appears to be, are we wise to be letting a foreign government, any foreign government, have this much control over our own?

[sratiug]

To my knowledge no American soldiers have lost their lives fighting for Israel. Guess what both Japan and China have very effective lobbyists.

Thirty-four American sailors were murdered by Israeli armed forces in an attack that lasted longer than Pearl Harbor. The USS Liberty was attacked by jets and and torpedoed by gunboats, then helicopters shot life rafts out of the water. The Israelis intended no survivors.

[Cowlesy]

We seem to be getting a little off-track in this thread.

The big question appears to be, are we wise to be letting a foreign government, any foreign government, have this much control over our own?

You're right that people were jumping the tracks on this one. It could also be that some posters do not understand or follow the principle of non-intervention to which many of us ascribe. It does not matter which foreign country is receiving the aid or exerting influence on our congress, we do not like it and think it makes us less safe.

Also before this thread jumps the other tracks, the "you're an anti-semite" track, may I remind some of our newer posters that Ron Paul has lots of jewish supporters, RPFs has lots of jewish members and many of the great Austrian economists are in fact jewish. I'm tired of that card being sloppily tossed down into debates about foreign government influence.

AIPAC, next to the National Rifle Assocation, is probably the most powerful lobby in Washington D.C. Americans who believe in non-intervention resent those who may hold dual national ties trying to influence our nation's foreign policy. Like Lord Xar said, if Italians had a lobby with AIPAC level influence, he'd work to stop that influence. What makes it even stickier is that Israel is a nation under a religious flag of state -- and when you add in the divisive nature of religion in general, this makes their influence even more objectionable to many Americans.

Jewish Americans like any other Americans have the right to petition and lobby their government. The clouds roll in when Americans begin to think they are doing so on behalf of a foreign government to create a bond or alliance which violates our principle of non-intervention.

[virgil47]

Is it non intervention or isolationism? Actually they are two sides to the same coin. Many here seem to be especially anti Israeli. It would seem that many here feel we should have remained out of the European portion of WWII and only fought the Japanese to a stalemate not to a decisive win.

If the day ever arrives that the USA has no allies in the world that will be the day when our enemies have won. We are no more capable of solely defending ourselves against our international enemies that Israel is of defending itself. Of course there is always the nuclear option! I personally would not care to see any country backed so far into a corner that they felt the need to use nukes.

Non intervention in our allies problems will result in the loss of allies and eventually the loss of trade partners. Without trade we can not survive as a nation unless of course returning to the horse and buggy days can be considered survival. If we are unfortunate enough to be attacked on our own soil and have no allies willing to get involved in our problems then it will be nukes or defeat.

It would appear as though some on here would welcome the destruction of the USA and actually promote nuclear war as opposed to conventional warfare.

I hope I am wrong but I'm afraid the rabid anti Israeli faction here is also anti USA.

[heavenlyboy34]

Is it non intervention or isolationism? Actually they are two sides to the same coin. Many here seem to be especially anti Israeli. It would seem that many here feel we should have remained out of the European portion of WWII and only fought the Japanese to a stalemate not to a decisive win.

If the day ever arrives that the USA has no allies in the world that will be the day when our enemies have won. We are no more capable of solely defending ourselves against our international enemies that Israel is of defending itself. Of course there is always the nuclear option! I personally would not care to see any country backed so far into a corner that they felt the need to use nukes.

Non intervention in our allies problems will result in the loss of allies and eventually the loss of trade partners. Without trade we can not survive as a nation unless of course returning to the horse and buggy days can be considered survival. If we are unfortunate enough to be attacked on our own soil and have no allies willing to get involved in our problems then it will be nukes or defeat.

It would appear as though some on here would welcome the destruction of the USA and actually promote nuclear war as opposed to conventional warfare.

I hope I am wrong but I'm afraid the rabid anti Israeli faction here is also anti USA.

You are assuming the statists' view-that poor relations between governments=poor relations between citizens. This is patently false. Individuals who wish to profit will go where the profit is, even if that place is "bad" according to some governmental criterion. You are wrong about the anti-Israel faction. Those who oppose Israel on RPFs (generally) do so for very logical reasons. (I'm not aware of any blindly anti-semitic RPFers) If you stick around and read threads about the issues you bring up, you'll become better educated. Please stick around. :)

[Cowlesy]

Is it non intervention or isolationism? Actually they are two sides to the same coin. Many here seem to be especially anti Israeli. It would seem that many here feel we should have remained out of the European portion of WWII and only fought the Japanese to a stalemate not to a decisive win.

If the day ever arrives that the USA has no allies in the world that will be the day when our enemies have won. We are no more capable of solely defending ourselves against our international enemies that Israel is of defending itself. Of course there is always the nuclear option! I personally would not care to see any country backed so far into a corner that they felt the need to use nukes.

Non intervention in our allies problems will result in the loss of allies and eventually the loss of trade partners. Without trade we can not survive as a nation unless of course returning to the horse and buggy days can be considered survival. If we are unfortunate enough to be attacked on our own soil and have no allies willing to get involved in our problems then it will be nukes or defeat.

It would appear as though some on here would welcome the destruction of the USA and actually promote nuclear war as opposed to conventional warfare.

I hope I am wrong but I'm afraid the rabid anti Israeli faction here is also anti USA.

Ahh there's one I've heard repeated a 1000x since the early days of the primaries, that non-interventionism equals isolationism. This is a claim that is patently false. Isolationism is closing down trade, borders and diplomatic relations with everyone.

What a cold, sad world that would be.

Non-interventionists are free-traders, pro-immigration (legally) and pro-diplomacy, just not at the end of the barrel of a gun. Once you go from neutral in international affairs to picking winners and losers, you're going to make enemies. If you want to be the shining city upon the hill, set an EXAMPLE, do not go and NATION-BUILD.

As far as not being able to defend ourselves? Admiral Yamamoto of the Imperial Japanese Navy said it best, "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

Are not Americans justified in their anger that Israel wields such heavy political influence in our government? Wouldn't they be just as angry if Ireland, Italy or Iran wielded such influence? You're concerned that they are perhaps anti-USA? Frankly, I think they're standard-bearers for pro-American sentiment in that they recognize and respect the founder's vision of having no entangling alliances.

*shrug* just my $0.02 cents.

[Falseflagop]

If these were CHinese spies or Iranian or France or English orwhoever this would be news 24/7 yet when they are ISraeli/Mossad spies and have a case DISMISSED our Media (again controlled by whom?) is SILENT!! Complete silence!! Why is that?

Anyone? And wit AIPAC involved in this scandal all this congress crietters show up to the AIPAC conference? They should be ashamed but they are not because imho they are owned via Blackmail or threats imho.

[revolutionisnow]

Is it non intervention or isolationism? Actually they are two sides to the same coin. Many here seem to be especially anti Israeli. It would seem that many here feel we should have remained out of the European portion of WWII and only fought the Japanese to a stalemate not to a decisive win.

Did you get that from johnmccaintalkingpoints.com?
YouTube - question 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0QpCs0XpRY)

And I think its debatable whether the US should have gotten involved in WW2 or not, and also if they should have allied with Communists, but that is a whole other discussion


Representative Ron Paul says House Speaker Nancy Pelosi removed a section from a bill passed by Congress which would have barred the U.S. from going to war with Iran without a congressional vote, claiming she did so at the behest of the leadership of Israel and AIPAC.
http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/paul_pelosi_AIPAC/2008/06/18/105652.html

[devil21]

North Korea is "isolationist". Sweden is "non-interventionist". Trade, travel, friendship with all nations. Entangling alliances with none. Which do we sound like we would rather be? How hard is that to really understand?

However I seriously doubt it's a cognitive problem but rather just a handy "think stopper" comment memorized from the days of Hannity's after-debate commentary to summarily discredit a much more complex principle without having to actually dissect or debate it. IOW, a sound bite for the sheep. Like Cowlesy, I still see that line trotted out today by the neo-con supporters like it's some sort of truism that is self-evident. It's not. But when pressed to discuss the differences further all I ever hear after is crickets. And nice touch taking it to the next step, virgil, and claiming that not supporting Israel means not supporting the US. We know that our support for Israel makes Americans less safe. Now THAT is a truism.

[LibertyEagle]

Is it non intervention or isolationism? Actually they are two sides to the same coin. Many here seem to be especially anti Israeli. It would seem that many here feel we should have remained out of the European portion of WWII and only fought the Japanese to a stalemate not to a decisive win.

If the day ever arrives that the USA has no allies in the world that will be the day when our enemies have won. We are no more capable of solely defending ourselves against our international enemies that Israel is of defending itself. Of course there is always the nuclear option! I personally would not care to see any country backed so far into a corner that they felt the need to use nukes.

Non intervention in our allies problems will result in the loss of allies and eventually the loss of trade partners. Without trade we can not survive as a nation unless of course returning to the horse and buggy days can be considered survival. If we are unfortunate enough to be attacked on our own soil and have no allies willing to get involved in our problems then it will be nukes or defeat.

It would appear as though some on here would welcome the destruction of the USA and actually promote nuclear war as opposed to conventional warfare.

I hope I am wrong but I'm afraid the rabid anti Israeli faction here is also anti USA.

Well, Cowlesy addressed the non-intervention vs. isolationism subject well, so I'll refer you to that.

Virgil, have you read Washington's Farewell Address? If not, would you go do it please? Why do you think Washington advised us to stay out of other countries' affairs? Be well-wishers to all, trade with everyone, but do not get involved in their wars. When we stick our noses into other countries' affairs, we create enemies. How would we feel if Red China decided to setup military bases in the U.S.? What would you think about that? What if Russia started deciding who our President would be and would overthrow whomever they didn't like? Would you like it? This isn't what our country was founded to do, virgil. You have to know that in your heart, if not from reading our founders' letters.


It would appear as though some on here would welcome the destruction of the USA and actually promote nuclear war as opposed to conventional warfare.

I hope I am wrong but I'm afraid the rabid anti Israeli faction here is also anti USA.
:eek:
I'm sorry, virgil, but that is nuts. You consider it anti-USA to put our own country first and not be willing to send our young women and men to be killed like so much cannon fodder for an agenda that has nothing whatsoever to do with our country's national defense? If that is however the position that YOU take, virgil, I suggest you should look in the mirror when wanting to find someone, anti-USA. Having a strong defense means we use our military for our OWN defense and not engage in other activities that create enemies where they otherwise would not have been.

Most in this movement are the most ardent patriots that you will ever find. We love this country. But, even more than that, we highly regard the principles upon which our country was founded. These are the principles that made us the freest country in the world. It is those principles that we want followed. By the way, not a one of those principles has a thing to do with starting preemptive wars and meddling in other countries' affairs. Not a one.

Watch this, virgil.

Ron Paul - In the Name of Patriotism (Who are the Patriots?)

Ron Paul - In the Name of Patriotism (Who are the Patriots?) (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5792391565012624048)

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

By apartheid do you mean as the U.S. is in regards to Native Americans or do you mean they are segregationists as in Great Britain and India to just name a few. Hmm, I guess you believe that AIPAC and SLPC are guilty of the same thing the NAACP is guilty of every time it plays the race card to control our congress.

And you won't see me here defending what the US government has done to the various AmerIndian Tribes or the NAACP and the race canard either. So, what is your point. Since you mention Great Britain, let me direct you to the words of MP Sir Gerald Kaufman.

YouTube - Don't believe me, then believe Jewish Elder MP SIR Gerald Kaufman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KajIEO1sqg4)



Shall we rephrase your little diatribe to say"personally, I'm sick 'racism' BS being spouted by people of color". Well I guess it could be said that it is you who is racist.

I guess it could be said you're a c*********. How about that, hmm?


Also for your personal education here is a freebie.[/B]
Sem⋅ite
   /ˈsɛmaɪt or, especially Brit., ˈsimaɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sem-ahyt or, especially Brit., see-mahyt] Show IPA
–noun
1. a member of any of various ancient and modern peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including the Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs.
2. a Jew.
3. a member of any of the peoples descended from Shem, the eldest son of Noah.

Right, cause a defintion of an Ethnic Group that includes a Religious Group is legitemate. Thats the equivalent of equating Germanic with Christian. The two are mutually exclusive.

[sratiug]

Is it non intervention or isolationism? Actually they are two sides to the same coin. Many here seem to be especially anti Israeli. It would seem that many here feel we should have remained out of the European portion of WWII and only fought the Japanese to a stalemate not to a decisive win.
...


You have to go back to WWI to understand WWII. WWI is the war we should have stayed out of. The Balfour Declaration was made by England during WWI promising a Jewish state in Palestine which was then controlled by the Ottoman Empire. We were not in the war at the time.

We were duped into entering the war on false pretenses ( the Lusitania was recently found to be full of ammunition ) and possibly prevented a lasting peace that could have avoided at least the European part of WWII.

Some believe there is a direct connection from the Balfour Declaration to us entering the war after Wilson promised to keep us out of it. What do you think?

[Falseflagop]

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts05072009.html


This is whats happening and guess who ALEX JONES is not talking about only as a homofobia type of thing not the real reason or who was behind it. imho Hate crime laws? WTF is going on???????? imho

[virgil47]

You are assuming the statists' view-that poor relations between governments=poor relations between citizens. This is patently false. Individuals who wish to profit will go where the profit is, even if that place is "bad" according to some governmental criterion. You are wrong about the anti-Israel faction. Those who oppose Israel on RPFs (generally) do so for very logical reasons. (I'm not aware of any blindly anti-semitic RPFers) If you stick around and read threads about the issues you bring up, you'll become better educated. Please stick around. :)

Yes if you read the news you will see what happens when U.S. companies trade with bad governments. Take Nicaragua for example. You see the people of the respective countries do not make policy nor do they declare war. The governments of those countries do those things.

From all the fuss and the not me posts I've come to believe that there is indeed a considerable anti Israeli faction on these boards. You know, Zionist this and Zionist that. It would seem that treaties are considered taboo by many here.

As to resurrecting Geo. Washington I can find nowhere in the annals of our history where he wished that the French would just mind there own business. For a non interventionist he seemed more than willing to accept help from the French in our time of need.

As for sticking around I'd suggest the same to you. I believe many here have ideals that are simply out of the realm of possibility in this day and age. I do not believe that any country can long survive without allies. If you feel that the U.S. does not need allies in today's world perhaps you haven't been paying attention to what is happening on the global scene.

[virgil47]

And you won't see me here defending what the US government has done to the various AmerIndian Tribes or the NAACP and the race canard either. So, what is your point. Since you mention Great Britain, let me direct you to the words of MP Sir Gerald Kaufman.

YouTube - Don't believe me, then believe Jewish Elder MP SIR Gerald Kaufman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KajIEO1sqg4)




I guess it could be said you're a c*********. How about that, hmm?

Nice. Very nice. For a third grader.

Right, cause a defintion of an Ethnic Group that includes a Religious Group is legitemate. Thats the equivalent of equating Germanic with Christian. The two are mutually exclusive.

I wasn't aware that you had published a dictionary and were the be all end all when it comes to definitions. At least it appears that you would like to be.

[Jace]

...

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

I wasn't aware that you had published a dictionary and were the be all end all when it comes to definitions. At least it appears that you would like to be.

Dance around the issue all you want. Write pithy comebacks all you want. It doesn't change jack or shit. Jewish is a Religion, not an Ethnicity. Saying Israel's government should collectively hang for butchering innocent Palestinians doesn't make one Anti-Semitic as the true Semites in the region are the Palestinians, Samaritans and other peoples ethnically related to them.

I could give two fucking shits whether you want to give all your money to Israel, go fight in her wars or whatever. Thats your prerogative. I, however, resent money being taken from me at gunpoint by our own government and given to the war criminals in Jerusalem. I resent them meddling in our political process. I resent them spying on us only to turn petulant and pitch a fit when their agents get caught and we demand they be tried. Fuck Israel. Fuck AIPAC. Fuck the ADL. Fuck the Southern Law Poverty Center. If you don't like that, too fucking bad.

[sratiug]

[B] As to resurrecting Geo. Washington I can find nowhere in the annals of our history where he wished that the French would just mind there own business. For a non interventionist he seemed more than willing to accept help from the French in our time of need.




At daybreak on May 28, Washington with 40 men stole up on the French camp near present Jumonville, Pa. Some were still asleep, others preparing breakfast. Without warning, Washington gave the order to fire. The Canadians who escaped the volley scrambled for their weapons, but were swiftly overwhelmed. Ten of the French were killed, one wounded, all but one of the rest taken prisoner. Washington and his men then retired, leaving the bodies of their victims for the wolves.[citation needed].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_in_the_French_and_Indian_War

[edit.. deleted]

[Liberty Star]

Removing all aid to Israel would of course usher in the end times that many talk about. Without the USA's aid Israel would be facing three options: 1) cease to exist voluntarily 2) be over run and put to the sword 3) use nuclear weapons to prevent options 1 and 2. Give this some thought and tell me which option you think Israel would choose. I firmly believe that if the USA faced the same three choices we would opt for choice number three. If you do not agree please enlighten me.


They are getting aid by way of WMD threat blackmail?

USA is not a race based extremist state, this comparison is bit strange in these modern times.

[Liberty Star]

YouTube - Don't believe me, then believe Jewish Elder MP SIR Gerald Kaufman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KajIEO1sqg4)




Wow.

Anyone knows if any US congressman ever has given a speech like this?

[virgil47]

Switzerland survives just fine. We are much more capable of defending ourselves than Switzerland.

Maybe you would feel more at home on a McCain or a Hillary Clinton message board. How about Little Green Footballs?

This is a Ron Paul message board and one of Ron Paul's central beliefs is non-intervention. That's why most of us are here. We think the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are mistakes. We think a war against Iran for Israel would be disastrous for Americans.

Israel can go the way of apartheid South Africa, as far as I'm concerned. The American taxpayer has given Israel more enough. And what have we gotten in return?

Please give me the definition of non intervention. I suspect that it is not what you believe it is.

[virgil47]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_in_the_French_and_Indian_War

[edit.. deleted]

Since when did wiki become a quotable source. It is loaded with misconceptions and outright falsehoods put in by high school dropouts trying to look important.

[Andrew-Austin]

[B]Maybe you have forgotten what site you are on! Those that frequent this site are by and large interested in the survival of the USA. It is true that there is a vocal minority that are isolationists and believe in the ostrich theory but the vast majority understand the value of having friends in the world.

Ron Paul was accused of isolationism during the primaries, and he differentiated between non-interventionism and isolationism. We can be 'friends' with other nations without pandering and propping them up. Free trade with all, entangling alliances with none. We put ourselves in danger simply for propping up Israel, all the while Israel terrorizes the Palestinians. You can donate your own damn money to the Israeli government, I however don't want to have anything to do with propping up a country across the globe whose hands are as bloody and dirty as any other middle eastern country in the region.




Is it non intervention or isolationism? Actually they are two sides to the same coin.

Its not isolationist simply to refuse to throw tax payer money at a foreign nation's economy and military.

If you're for cutting down the US warfare/welfare state and dramatically reducing our nation's spending, it would be something strange if you at the same time supported foreign government aid.


Many here seem to be especially anti Israeli.

ZOMG.

I'm against any corrupt war mongering country.

[devil21]

Please give me the definition of non intervention. I suspect that it is not what you believe it is.

I put it very simply earlier in the thread. North Korea is isolationist. Sweden is non-interventionist. That's pretty much self-explanatory if you have the slightest hint of a world view.

[virgil47]

Ron Paul was accused of isolationism during the primaries, and he differentiated between non-interventionism and isolationism. We can be 'friends' with other nations without pandering and propping them up. Free trade with all, entangling alliances with none. We put ourselves in danger simply for propping up Israel, all the while Israel terrorizes the Palestinians. You can donate your own damn money to the Israeli government, I however don't want to have anything to do with propping up a country across the globe whose hands are as bloody and dirty as any other middle eastern country in the region.

So what you are saying is that if helping out another country puts us in danger than we should simply abandon them. As for Israel terrorizing the Palestinians That is the biggest load of tripe imaginable. Please tell me when has Israel ever advocated the total destruction of any other nation. They have not done so have they? However the Iranians, the Palestinians, the Syrians and almost every other middle eastern Arab nation has and does advocate the total destruction of Israel. They wish to destroy Israel for one reason. It exists.

Its not isolationist simply to refuse to throw tax payer money at a foreign nation's economy and military.

You are correct as far as you go. It is however wrong to abandon friends in need.

If you're for cutting down the US warfare/welfare state and dramatically reducing our nation's spending, it would be something strange if you at the same time supported foreign government aid.

So you are saying we should reduce our spending by throwing allies under the bus?

ZOMG.

I'm against any corrupt war mongering country.

As am I.

[virgil47]

I put it very simply earlier in the thread. North Korea is isolationist. Sweden is non-interventionist. That's pretty much self-explanatory if you have the slightest hint of a world view.

Oh I get it one is a communist nation and the other is a socialist nation. Are you saying that we should not ever under any circumstances render military aid to any other country? Is that what Dr. Paul thinks? Somehow I do not believe that is his stance. If you think we should render military aid to another country under what circumstances do you feel it would be justified?

[devil21]

Oh I get it one is a communist nation and the other is a socialist nation. Are you saying that we should not ever under any circumstances render military aid to any other country? Is that what Dr. Paul thinks? Somehow I do not believe that is his stance. If you think we should render military aid to another country under what circumstances do you feel it would be justified?

You asked the difference between isolationism and non-interventionism. Whether they are commie, socialist, democracy, republic, whatever has NOTHING to do with the types of foreign policy they practice. You are trying to deflect the discussion in a different direction to avoid my clear and concise point that exhibits examples of both forms of policy. We wish to be "Sweden". You think we wish to be "North Korea".

RP does not support military aid, financial aid, or pretty much any other aid as long as it is government mandated and the US is not a direct party to the conflict. Citizens are free to do what they wish to aid other countries. However, it is not the government's job to force taxpayers to aid other countries. It is not within the scope of the fed's powers in the Constitution to do so.

Let Dr. Paul explain his stance to you himself:
YouTube - Ron Paul 2004 on China, Israel and Foreign Aid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpfxr5yyZ7s)
YouTube - Ron Paul SC Debate on Israel Question 4 - 01/10/2008 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI3rNc_Faz0&feature=related) (includes my favorite McCain gaffe too....very telling statement about current US foreign policy)

I agree with Paul 100% as he explains in the debate segment above. The only time we should be involved is when we are a direct party to a conflict (Pearl Harbor, for example). Not a proxy party to a conflict by allies like NATO is intended to be.

[Carole]

Israel has been bleeding America for decades. How is it that they don't go after Germany for their perpetual reparations? Wasn't it Germany that treated them so badly?

What did America ever do to Israel that we are forever paying Israel for their suffering decades ago?

This is so similar to perpetual reparations for slavery in America.

None of this makes any sense to me. :mad:

[revolutionisnow]

Israel has been bleeding America for decades. How is it that they don't go after Germany for their perpetual reparations? Wasn't it Germany that treated them so badly?

What did America ever do to Israel that we are forever paying Israel for their suffering decades ago?

This is so similar to perpetual reparations for slavery in America.

None of this makes any sense to me. :mad:

Oh they have forced Germany to pay Billions also.

[Liberty Star]

We think a war against Iran for Israel would be disastrous for Americans.



It's not gonna happen.

[sratiug]

Since when did wiki become a quotable source. It is loaded with misconceptions and outright falsehoods put in by high school dropouts trying to look important.

Good lord, have you really never heard of the French and Indian Wars?

[virgil47]

Ok. Let's see if I understand your take on non interventionism. Many of you believe that it means that we can have trade with another country but should not become involved in any conflict that our trading partner may come to be involved in. Is this correct?

If so it seems that our trading partners could become targets for those that dislike the U.S. and of course with the strict non intervention policy that you advocate the only option for our trading partners would be to cease trade with us in order to protect themselves. I strongly believe there are those that would just love to isolate the U.S. when it comes to trade. It would only take a few terrorist acts against a weak nation to dissuade them from trading with the U.S.

As I see it if we follow the strict non interventionism that many here seem to advocate we will not only eventually become isolated trade wise but also lose any allies that may prefer a similar form of government. If we do not stand with those countries that prefer freedom for it's citizens then they will certainly not stand with the U.S. if ever we should need assistance remain free.

By not standing with Israel in their time of need we take the risk of becoming seen as weak and untrustworthy in the eyes of other freedom loving peoples.
To paraphrase the old saw "we must stand together or we will most assuredly conquered separately". I sincerely hope that we as a nation place a higher value on an Allie than we do on money. Israel is like the U.S. in more ways than not.

[Objectivist]

Sounds familiar......
YouTube - Democrats on Iraq + WMD's (Weapons of Mass Destruction) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwqh4wQPoQk)

[LibertyEagle]

Ok. Let's see if I understand your take on non interventionism. Many of you believe that it means that we can have trade with another country but should not become involved in any conflict that our trading partner may come to be involved in. Is this correct?

If so it seems that our trading partners could become targets for those that dislike the U.S. and of course with the strict non intervention policy that you advocate the only option for our trading partners would be to cease trade with us in order to protect themselves. I strongly believe there are those that would just love to isolate the U.S. when it comes to trade. It would only take a few terrorist acts against a weak nation to dissuade them from trading with the U.S.

As I see it if we follow the strict non interventionism that many here seem to advocate we will not only eventually become isolated trade wise but also lose any allies that may prefer a similar form of government. If we do not stand with those countries that prefer freedom for it's citizens then they will certainly not stand with the U.S. if ever we should need assistance remain free.

By not standing with Israel in their time of need we take the risk of becoming seen as weak and untrustworthy in the eyes of other freedom loving peoples.
To paraphrase the old saw "we must stand together or we will most assuredly conquered separately". I sincerely hope that we as a nation place a higher value on an Allie than we do on money. Israel is like the U.S. in more ways than not.

Did it ever enter your mind that if we stopped overthrowing other countries' elected leaders and occupying other countries' lands, that we just might not have so many enemies? Our Founding Fathers warned us not to take this course of action, yet some dare to call such actions patriotic and go wave their little flags. Go figure.

[Objectivist]

Did it ever enter your mind that if we stopped overthrowing other countries' elected leaders and occupying other countries' lands, that we just might not have so many enemies? Our Founding Fathers warned us not to take this course of action, yet some dare to call such actions patriotic and go wave their little flags. Go figure.

When's the last time you heard a rational coherent thought come out of government? RP excluded.

[Cowlesy]

Did it ever enter your mind that if we stopped overthrowing other countries' elected leaders and occupying other countries' lands, that we just might not have so many enemies? Our Founding Fathers warned us not to take this course of action, yet some dare to call such actions patriotic and go wave their little flags. Go figure.

Yahtzee!

[RickyJ]

Removing all aid to Israel would of course usher in the end times that many talk about. Without the USA's aid Israel would be facing three options: 1) cease to exist voluntarily 2) be over run and put to the sword 3) use nuclear weapons to prevent options 1 and 2. Give this some thought and tell me which option you think Israel would choose. I firmly believe that if the USA faced the same three choices we would opt for choice number three. If you do not agree please enlighten me.

The end times? Believe me, the world can do quite fine indeed without the state of Israel. End times for their reign of terror maybe, but certainly not for the world.

[RickyJ]

[B]Not an option when the fanatics that wish the destruction of Israel also have them.

You would have to be a fanatic to want the destruction of Israel, wouldn't you? LOL!

Supporting a terror state like Israel is sick and disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself. But heck no, you post your opinion for the world to know you stand with terrorists. Well, your time and Israel's time is limited. No one lives forever. Judgment Day is coming.

[virgil47]

You would have to be a fanatic to want the destruction of Israel, wouldn't you? LOL!

Yes. I believe that anyone that wishes the destruction of Israel is a fanatic that does not have the best interests of the U.S. at heart.

Supporting a terror state like Israel is sick and disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself. But heck no, you post your opinion for the world to know you stand with terrorists. Well, your time and Israel's time is limited. No one lives forever. Judgment Day is coming.

Hmm, your post sounds much like what the Islamists are putting forth. I suppose you would like to see the Israelis driven into the sea like your ideological soul mates in the middle east. Yes you have indeed posted your opinion so that all can see that you do stand with the Muslim terrorists that attacked our country. I hope you feel proud of being a traitor to our fine country. And by the way Israel is not a terror state unless of course defending it's territory against an invading horde.

[Anti Federalist]

Hmm, your post sounds much like what the Islamists are putting forth. I suppose you would like to see the Israelis driven into the sea like your ideological soul mates in the middle east. Yes you have indeed posted your opinion so that all can see that you do stand with the Muslim terrorists that attacked our country. I hope you feel proud of being a traitor to our fine country. And by the way Israel is not a terror state unless of course defending it's territory against an invading horde.

Modern day radical Islam got it's start though us and the British intelligence services.

Operation Ajax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat)

By the way, 9/11 was an inside job.

[virgil47]

Modern day radical Islam got it's start though us and the British intelligence services.

Radical Islam got it's start in the 5th century.

Operation Ajax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat)

By the way, 9/11 was an inside job.

Wait let me get my tinfoil hat on!

[Anti Federalist]

Wait let me get my tinfoil hat on!

Lol, you can put on a brain bucket for all I care.

I said "modern day" radical Islam.

At the heart of it was the Iranian revolution and the rise of Khomeini.

That was a direct blowback result of our state sponsored, bloody coup in Iran.

[BenIsForRon]

Interesting discussion, I think we shouldn't cut off all aid to Israel tomorrow... things would get too chaotic. Of course, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if we minded our own business a long time ago.

Does anybody have an opinion on virgil's point about France and their aid to us during the Revolutionary war? Were they instrumental in our win? Is there any plausible scenario where we should do the same for another?

[Anti Federalist]

Does anybody have an opinion on virgil's point about France and their aid to us during the Revolutionary war? Were they instrumental in our win? Is there any plausible scenario where we should do the same for another?

Sure, among other things, French naval power proved decisive at Yorktown.

But their intervention was not based on a love of the emerging United States, they wanted to strike a blow at English interests in the new world.

And in the end, what did the aristocracy of France get for their reward for "helping" us, or more properly, playing both sides against the middle?

A date with the guillotine, that's what.

After that, a sale of the colonial assets in North America to Thomas Jefferson.

And the French people got Napoleonic war and the "Reign of Terror".

Which, by the way, is where the word "terrorist" comes from.

[dr. hfn]

y don't we take them out?

[BenIsForRon]

Gotcha. I agree with your statements, buy I must say, if there were to be another country fighting for freedom in a similar situation to where the colonies were, it would be a good idea help them. Is it a role for our government, since they've got the good equipment?... not sure.

[tonesforjonesbones]

The whole thing is a freaking scheme...the bolshevik communists in washington (AIPAC) hammer congress (threaten their reputations and careers) for our tax dollars to go to the bolshevik communists that are running the British colony called Israel...and the Bolshevik communists in Israel purchase munitions from the bolshevik communists who own the big munitions corporations in the USA...so my fellow Americans...BEND OVER... tones

[Anti Federalist]

Gotcha. I agree with your statements, buy I must say, if there were to be another country fighting for freedom in a similar situation to where the colonies were, it would be a good idea help them. Is it a role for our government, since they've got the good equipment?... not sure.

It didn't work out so well for us in Central America back in the 80s.

All the corruption, drug dealing, arms dealing and the dead, "collateral damage" of a war to oust Daniel Ortega, all for nothing, as he is now back in power.

Altruistic ideals aside, it very rarely works out well for the "helping country".

Especially in the morass of tribal, religious, political and territorial wars that is the Middle East.

[tonesforjonesbones]

They are all Ashkanazi's or Bolshevik communist russian jews, you know it. same thing. tones

[heavenlyboy34]

They are all Ashkanazi's or Bolshevik communist russian jews, you know it. same thing. tones

+a bunch! ~hugs Tonesy~ :D

[BenIsForRon]

we don't hug on these forums. GTFO.

[virgil47]

The whole thing is a freaking scheme...the bolshevik communists in washington (AIPAC) hammer congress (threaten their reputations and careers) for our tax dollars to go to the bolshevik communists that are running the British colony called Israel...and the Bolshevik communists in Israel purchase munitions from the bolshevik communists who own the big munitions corporations in the USA...so my fellow Americans...BEND OVER... tones

Comrade where have you been? The Bolsheviks of earth are looking for you. LOL.

[virgil47]

It didn't work out so well for us in Central America back in the 80s.

You correct.

All the corruption, drug dealing, arms dealing and the dead, "collateral damage" of a war to oust Daniel Ortega, all for nothing, as he is now back in power.

He is?

Altruistic ideals aside, it very rarely works out well for the "helping country".

[B]True but often times it does make for a much happier ending for the country that is being helped.

Especially in the morass of tribal, religious, political and territorial wars that is the Middle East.

Well we could always wait until they are knocking on our door so to speak and then nuke them back to the 5th century. Ooops that won't work they are already there. Maybe we could nuke them back to the stone age.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Heavenly Hugs! tones

Why do people laugh when someone brings up communism that has infiltrated everything? Please check out G. Edward Griffin...he has some GREAT video's about communism. tones

[sratiug]

Hmm, your post sounds much like what the Islamists are putting forth. I suppose you would like to see the Israelis driven into the sea like your ideological soul mates in the middle east. Yes you have indeed posted your opinion so that all can see that you do stand with the Muslim terrorists that attacked our country. I hope you feel proud of being a traitor to our fine country. And by the way Israel is not a terror state unless of course defending it's territory against an invading horde.

Why do you equate dissing Israel with being a traitor to the US?

Invading horde is in the eye of the beholder.

No comment on the USS Liberty incident?

What about all those Israelis spies aprehended in the US after 911?

How many times can I get away with stealing government secrets and still keep my multi-billion dollar a year allowance? Oh, that's right, none.

[Anti Federalist]

Well we could always wait until they are knocking on our door so to speak and then nuke them back to the 5th century. Ooops that won't work they are already there. Maybe we could nuke them back to the stone age.

Wholesale genocide is not a viable option.

And we've already blasted Afghanistan "back to the stone age". (Well, with the exception of the opium fields, those are doing quite well, thank you very much)

What do you propose next, blowing up the rubble?

And yes, Daniel Ortega has regained his position as president of Nicaragua.

For quite a few years as a matter of fact.

[Liberty Star]

Modern day radical Islam got it's start though us and the British intelligence services.

Operation Ajax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat)



Very interesting.

YouTube - Ron Paul: Israel Created Hamas! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z6vMAoFwf4&NR=1)

[Anti Federalist]

Very interesting.

YouTube - Ron Paul: Israel Created Hamas! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z6vMAoFwf4&NR=1)

Thanks for bringing that up.

There are probably some here that would say Ron Paul himself should shut up about these wild conspiracy theories.

The truth is painful sometimes, but it's still the truth.

[virgil47]

Heavenly Hugs! tones

Why do people laugh when someone brings up communism that has infiltrated everything? Please check out G. Edward Griffin...he has some GREAT video's about communism. tones

My reply was tongue in cheek. Having been around to witness the 60's personally I certainly agree with your comments on communism.

[virgil47]

Why do you equate dissing Israel with being a traitor to the US?

It is simple really. Israel is an Allie and has a form of government similar to ours. By constantly wishing for their destruction you are projecting your feeling towards our country.

Invading horde is in the eye of the beholder.

Indeed it is. To my knowledge Israel has only invaded other countries after first having been attacked. I consider this self defense but obviously you do not.

No comment on the USS Liberty incident?

Mistakes do happen. Also I believe if you look into the clash a bit more you will find that there was extenuating circumstances. Not that these circumstances justified the ferocity of the attack.

What about all those Israelis spies aprehended in the US after 911?

What about them? They got caught and our spies in Israel did not. I guess that means that we are more experienced and proficient at spying.

How many times can I get away with stealing government secrets and still keep my multi-billion dollar a year allowance? Oh, that's right, none.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Maybe you should ask our spies that same question.

[virgil47]

[QUOTE=Anti Federalist;2127371]Wholesale genocide is not a viable option.

Please tell that to those that wish for the extermination of all Jews.

And we've already blasted Afghanistan "back to the stone age". (Well, with the exception of the opium fields, those are doing quite well, thank you very much)

I'm afraid you obviously do not know much about Afghanistan. Until very recently there was only one road in the entire country and it was not paved. That road is now paved and WE have been responsible for creating additional roads in Afghanistan. So as You can see you can not blast someone back to the "stone age" when they are essentially already there.

What do you propose next, blowing up the rubble?

Hmm, good idea.

And yes, Daniel Ortega has regained his position as president of Nicaragua.

Oh yes that is right. My mistake.

For quite a few years as a matter of fact.[/QUOTE

[B]Again my mistake. Must have had a senior moment.

[Anti Federalist]

Please tell that to those that wish for the extermination of all Jews.

If that is really "radical Islam's" goal, then isn't the nation/state of Israel counter productive?

Put all your "targets" in a nice convenient package...not very smart.

[virgil47]

If that is really "radical Islam's" goal, then isn't the nation/state of Israel counter productive?

That is their professed goal. They have stated unequivocally that they will not be satisfied until Israel is totally destroyed. If by counter productive you mean that we should allow them to be destroyed because the Islamic fundamentalists want them gone then no.

Put all your "targets" in a nice convenient package...not very smart.

Who us or them?

[tonesforjonesbones]

well perhaps they won't feel that way about Israel if there was a level playing field, which there is not. I consider it was a huge mistake to put the displaced jews smack in the middle of an ant bed. What were they thinking? ...I honestly believe there are powers that want the middle east destablized and that's how they did it. Oil. Resources. It's just awful for all of the folks having to live over there...and for our military members. tones

[virgil47]

well perhaps they won't feel that way about Israel if there was a level playing field, which there is not. I consider it was a huge mistake to put the displaced jews smack in the middle of an ant bed. What were they thinking? ...I honestly believe there are powers that want the middle east destablized and that's how they did it. Oil. Resources. It's just awful for all of the folks having to live over there...and for our military members. tones

As to the why they were put there is because historically that land belonged to the Jews. I agree that there are those that want the middle east destabilized. Those same folks would like very much to see the end of the U.S. and will use terrorism, propaganda, falsehoods and anything else at there disposal to gain ultimate control of all of the people of earth. One of their favorite tactics is balkinization where they do there best to isolate countries from those that have historically been their allies.

[heavenlyboy34]

As to the why they were put there is because historically that land belonged to the Jews. I agree that there are those that want the middle east destabilized. Those same folks would like very much to see the end of the U.S. and will use terrorism, propaganda, falsehoods and anything else at there disposal to gain ultimate control of all of the people of earth. One of their favorite tactics is balkinization where they do there best to isolate countries from those that have historically been their allies.

You conveniently ignore the Jewish diaspora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora) in your argument for the Israeli State. If you accept the bible as an authority (which you seem to), you must believe that the Jews were expelled by God for a reason (thus it is no longer "their land"), yes? (I'm sure our resident biblical scholars could help me out with the details of this)

[Liberty Star]

Thanks for bringing that up.

There are probably some here that would say Ron Paul himself should shut up about these wild conspiracy theories.

The truth is painful sometimes, but it's still the truth.


These are undisputed facts, RP dont do "conspiracy theories" :



Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm




Unintended Consequences Pose Risks for Mideast Policy

Obama Breaks His Silence, Vows to Work for Peace Deal


In the 1980s, for instance, the Israeli government decided to weaken the secular Fatah movement headed by Palestine Liberation Organization Chairman Yasser Arafat by promoting the rise of Islamic parties as a counterweight, on the theory that Islamic groups would not have the same nationalistic impulses.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/06/AR2009010602868.html





The American Conservative

Making Enemies...

How Israel helped to create Hamas

But there is something bitterly ironic in Israel’s support for Fatah against Hamas—and it should be a lesson to governments everywhere that meddle in other states’ affairs. In the past, Israel supported Hamas against Fatah. Indeed, in the 1970s and 80s, Israel played a not insignificant role in encouraging Hamas’s emergence in the belief that such an Islamist group might help rupture support for the mass nationalist movement of Fatah. Twenty years later, Israel has switched sides, hoping that it can encourage Fatah to see off Hamas. It wants “moderate” Palestinians to take on the “extremist” Palestinians it helped create. Like America and Britain before it—both of whom have supported and armed Islamist movements in the Middle East in attempts to undermine secular nationalist parties—Israel is learning the hard way that it is one thing to let radical Islamists off the leash but quite another thing to rein them back in again. If you make monsters, you shouldn’t be surprised if they come back to bite you.


http://www.amconmag.com/article/2007/feb/12/00017/




Israeli PM Olmert:

"Netanyahu established Hamas, gave it life, freed Sheikh Yassin and gave him the opportunity to blossom," he said, adding that the current political situation in the Palestinian Authority came about "because of the nonsense that was done while Netanyahu was prime minister."


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1170359844280

[tonesforjonesbones]

heavenly I agree....God kicked them out not once , but twice for disobeying. the idea that the land still belongs to the jews..well heck...the real jews were living there in peace with the Palestinians..the Sephardic Jews...were already THERE...but when did God promise that land to russians? tones

[Liberty Star]

Putting aside the debate on Obama and aipac, some historic facts from another thread:





Did Obama reward this mideast terrorist group's member by appointing his son as White House CoS because he introduced Obama to aipac's funding pockets?

Or is there any other explanation for this?


His father was a member of Irgun a Zionist organization that operated in Israel. The senior Emanuel was the man who introduced Obama to AIPAC the Israeli PAC in the USA.



IRGUN BOMB KILLS 11 ARABS, 2 BRITONS; Missile Thrown From a Taxi in Jerusalem -- Rift in the Jewish Agency Growing IRGUN BOMB KILLS 11 ARABS, 2 BRITONS

By SAM POPE BREWER
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.December 30, 1947, TuesdayPage 1, 1007 words

JERUSALEM, Dec. 29 -- A bomb thrown by the Jewish terrorist organization Irgun Zvai Leumi from a speeding taxi today killed eleven Arabs and two British policemen and wounded at least thirty-two Arabs by the Jerusalem Damascus Gate, the same place where a similar bombing took place sixteen days ago.



IRGUN'S HAND SEEN IN ALPS RAIL BLAST; Polish Jew Confesses He Was Lookout for Others Who Bombed British TrainSpecial to

THE NEW YORK TIMES.August 16, 1947, Saturday Page 4, 484 words

VIENNA, Aug. 15 -- United States authorities believed tonight they had circumstantial evidence linking the bombing of a British military train high in the Austrian Alps Tuesday night to the Zionist terrorist organization Irgun Zvai Leumi, according to preliminary investigation reports from Bad Gastein.


Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times newspaper, and by the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry. Irgun attacks prompted a formal declaration from the World Zionist Congress in 1946, which strongly condemned "the shedding of innocent blood as a means of political warfare.


http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10A1FF6345E17738DDDA90B94DA415B 8788F1D3&scp=2&sq

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0E16F93D55147B93C4A81783D85F43 8485F9&scp=3&sq

http://blog.lehighvalleylive.com/com...n_looks_i.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

[Liberty Star]

Not surprising that the war monger parasites are now pushing US to another pre-emptive war with Iran. Has Fox news issued the memo yet to its talking heads to start "Iran war month"?

If we are to go to war with Iran for another country, we better not rush to get troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Sadly only thing in their way is bad economy caused by last war and crash and arrest of some Wall Street fraudsters.

If Obama has any sense, he will cut off all aid that will force an end of Israeli occupation regime and war crimes against oppressed Palestinain people. That will drastically lower global terror temperature against America at no cost to tax payers.




Lets take a quick look at anti-American global terror roots and connection to Israel-Palestine issue:

Airplane Hijacking invented by Palestinian Christian group PLFP in 70s targetting Israeli and Westren planes

Bobby Kennedy killed by a Palestinian Christian refugee after he heard his pro-Israeli speech on TV to run for NY Senate

Abu Zubaida 9/11 plot central figure and now cited in special torture memos, a Palestinian muslim refugee. "Hanging Palestinian" is a special torture technique perfected by Israel that US also tried on detainees.
Palestine is given as number one reason in OBL letters after 9/11

Zarqawi that led Iraqi bombing campaigns, a Palestinian refugee


American public in its blind support for brutal Israeli occupation and policies still has its eyes covered thanks to a crooked media that seldom touches real facts about root causes of our problems.



Interesting news from another thread for some who are still with 9-10 mindset:


Bin Laden: Palestinian Cause Prompted 9/11

Audio Message Claims Al Qaeda's Main Motivation Is To Liberate Palestinians

LONDON, May 16, 200

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/16/terror/main4102367.shtml?source=mostpop_story



Feb 4, 2008

Our World: Habash's last laugh

By CAROLINE GLICK

Where does Arab fanaticism come from? Does it come from the mosque? Or does it come from the fanatics' intended targets refusal to close down the mosque? The death by natural causes of George Habash on January 26 indicates strongly that the latter is the case.

Death of a radical

PFLP founder George Habash was the pioneer of airline hijacking

Habash, the founder and commander of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine was a repugnant, fanatical, mass-murderer. Habash's terror specialties included airplane hijacking, hostage taking, massacre, assassination, and suicide bombings. Far from an Islamic supremacist, Habash was a Christian.






George Habash

New York Sun Editorial
January 29, 2008

The death this past weekend of George Habash is an opportunity to reexamine some of the myths of the war on Islamist terror. The State Department's annual terrorism report notes that the group led by Habash and known as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine "earned a reputation for spectacular international attacks in the 1960s and 1970s, including airline hijackings that killed at least 20 U.S. citizens."

It's a reminder of the first myth — that the enemy is Islamist extremism. Dr. Habash, a physician, was a Christian whose funeral yesterday took place, according to the Agence France Press, at a Greek Orthodox Church in Amman, Jordan. It is true that Islamist extremism is the most virulent threat at the moment, but it is not exclusively Islamists who hijack airplanes to kill innocent Jews and Americans.

....
PLO Figure George Habash Dies at 81; Founded Faction Known for Hijackings

Associated Press
Sunday, January 27, 2008

The former guerrilla leader, whose rivalry with Yasser Arafat spurred him to start the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, died of a heart attack in Amman, said Leila Khaled, a longtime PFLP member.

Habash, born to a Christian Arab family, was opposed to Arab-Israeli peace talks. His group was the second-largest in the PLO after Fatah, the faction of Arafat and current Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

Habash and his group gained notoriety for the 1970 hijackings of airliners over the United States, Europe, the Far East and the Persian Gulf. The aircraft were blown up in the Middle East after passengers and crews disembarked.

The group also was responsible for gunning down 27 people at Israel's Lod airport in May 1972. And it was behind what is considered one of the first Palestinian hijackings, of an Israeli El Al flight from Rome to Tel Aviv in 1968. PFLP gunmen ordered it flown to Algeria; no one was hurt.

Habash fled his home town of Lydda, in what is now Israel, in 1948 and graduated first in his 1951 class at the American University of Beirut. He launched the Popular Front in December 1967, six months after the Arabs lost the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights to Israel.

Habash opposed interim peace agreements with Israel, in part because they did not require Israel to stop settlement construction. Throughout his life, he supported the use of violence against Israel, arguing that Israel would not make the concessions required for a peace agreement.

Habash frequently criticized Arafat, particularly during his attempts to negotiate with Israel. It was the PFLP's hijackings that did much to shape the image of the PLO as a terrorist organization. Israel refused to negotiate with it as a result.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/26/AR2008012602355.html

http://www.nysun.com/article/70364

[Liberty Star]

By not standing with Israel in their time of need we take the risk of becoming seen as weak and untrustworthy in the eyes of other freedom loving peoples.
To paraphrase the old saw "we must stand together or we will most assuredly conquered separately". I sincerely hope that we as a nation place a higher value on an Allie than we do on money. Israel is like the U.S. in more ways than not.

Such fallacious argument could have flown pre 9/11. They are the most disliked country in the world, standing with them while they oppress and butcher has brught us unnecessary wars and economic problems. Two years ago Israeli President gave medals to their agents who had bombed American and British buildings dressed in arab clothes. Do allies do that? They provided us bogus intel to drag us into Iraq war but we don't see their troops on frontlines in Iraq or in Afghanistan like the Brits and Aussies? Doesn't "satnading with" an ally work both ways?

Expond on that if you could. They are a huge liability and recent shift in US Israel-Palestine policy is well justified.

[Liberty Star]

...I honestly believe there are powers that want the middle east destablized and that's how they did it. Oil. Resources.

That's probably true more recently. In 67, US wanted to preserve a balance and was ready to bomb Israel when they started occupying West Bank. Russian element was part of it too.

[RonPaulR3VOLUTION]

Good thing our current policies are winning us those important allies all over the world. ;)

"Why do people continue to refer to Ron Paul as an isolationist? Since when did free trade, free travel, diplomacy and friendship become isolationist principles as opposed to our current foreign policy of war, sanctions, occupation, travel restrictions, constant public denunciations of foreign government, tarrifs, trade barriers and alienating most of the world."

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." --Thomas Jefferson

virgil47, at least you make no attempt to hide your love of big government, Americans paying more taxes to provide welfare for those in the U.S., and in all nations, which includes the beloved 'Democrat' principal of nation building.

Here Republicans admire Bush as he speaks of the horrors of 'liberals' and their nation building.

YouTube - Common Sense (Final) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBVHJY-RNSA)

Of course, 9/11 changed everything, including changing Republicans into big-government-loving, welfare-embracing nation builders. But I suspect it wasn't really that big of a change.

[virgil47]

Good thing our current policies are winning us those important allies all over the world. ;)

You are correct the sides are being drawn up .

"Why do people continue to refer to Ron Paul as an isolationist? Since when did free trade, free travel, diplomacy and friendship become isolationist principles as opposed to our current foreign policy of war, sanctions, occupation, travel restrictions, constant public denunciations of foreign government, tarrifs, trade barriers and alienating most of the world."

People realize that with out allies that you are willing to help defend we are indeed isolated from those that have a similar form of government.

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." --Thomas Jefferson

Wonderful sentiments in a time when we as a nation were totally self sufficient.

virgil47, at least you make no attempt to hide your love of big government, Americans paying more taxes to provide welfare for those in the U.S., and in all nations, which includes the beloved 'Democrat' principal of nation building.

I for one despise big government however I do realize that some government is better than none. Welfare is criminal in regards to those who refuse to help themselves. Charity should be used to help those that can not help themselves. We have not been into nation building since the late 1800's to the early 1900's and then only as a means to stabilize the aftermath of war. To my knowledge we have added no permanent territory to the U.S. since Hawaii became a state.

Here Republicans admire Bush as he speaks of the horrors of 'liberals' and their nation building.

Bush was only the lessor of two evils between him and Gore. The last decent president we have had was R.Reagan and he did nothing to roll back the previous gains of the socialists in our government.

YouTube - Common Sense (Final) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBVHJY-RNSA)

Of course, 9/11 changed everything, including changing Republicans into big-government-loving, welfare-embracing nation builders. But I suspect it wasn't really that big of a change.

Coming together as a nation after being attacked has virtually nothing to do with the Republicans being in love with big government or welfare. Your definition of nation building needs some work.

[Liberty Star]

Good thing our current policies are winning us those important allies all over the world. ;)

"Why do people continue to refer to Ron Paul as an isolationist? Since when did free trade, free travel, diplomacy and friendship become isolationist principles as opposed to our current foreign policy of war, sanctions, occupation, travel restrictions, constant public denunciations of foreign government, tarrifs, trade barriers and alienating most of the world."

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." --Thomas Jefferson


Here Republicans admire Bush as he speaks of the horrors of 'liberals' and their nation building.

YouTube - Common Sense (Final) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBVHJY-RNSA)

Of course, 9/11 changed everything, including changing Republicans into big-government-loving, welfare-embracing nation builders. But I suspect it wasn't really that big of a change.


Well put.

[Liberty Star]

This woman has more balls than all the Washington critters. Supposedly photo in this video clip was first to be in New York Times coverage but some phone call made them leave it out of their coverage, DN has it in their videocast now:

YouTube - CODEPINK Disrupts AIPAC Conference (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0IJYL-RsKw&feature=related)

There maybe be an indication that one of the most brutal and oppressive occupation regime in holy land is on its last legs.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

This woman has more balls than all the Washington critters.

Yea, I'll give her props for that.