libertarian funding of national defense

[brandon]

This is something i have been wondering about. If the income tax is abolished, Where will the funding for the military come from?

In addition, I realize we would shrink the federal government substantially, but there still will be other things that need to be funded(for example, Ron Pauls paycheck) . Where will the money come from? Please let me know RP's position on this, and everyone elses.

I had an idea about this earlier today. Maybe each state should be required to pay an annual fee to the federal government (proportional to population) for the small amount of services the feds will still perform. This way each state can decide how to tax the citizens, or how they will collect the money, but bottom line is they have to pay there dues each year.

I havn't studied much economics, so this may be a bad idea, but if it is please explain why.

[ItsTime]

there are other ways for the feds to collect money. if we got rid of the income tax right now we would be at 2000 spending levels. If we pull out of Iraq, German, Japan, Israel, and so on we would need far less than what we spent in 2000.

Im not an expert but that is how I see it

[brandon]

there are other ways for the feds to collect money. if we got rid of the income tax right now we would be at 2000 spending levels. If we pull out of Iraq, German, Japan, Israel, and so on we would need far less than what we spent in 2000.

Im not an expert but that is how I see it

What are the other ways to collect money? I realize we could drastically reduce out military budget, but we could not eliminate it. We still need money, just not as much.

[Abobo]

Ummmm..... Do you even know what income tax pays for? It's not the military.

[brandon]

Ummmm..... Do you even know what income tax pays for? It's not the military.


Well then obviously I don't. I never claimed to know what I was talking about. Why dont you explain it to me instead of asking a condescending, rhetorical question.

[0zzy]

Well then obviously I don't. I never claimed to know what I was talking about. Why dont you explain it to me instead of asking a condescending, rhetorical question.

I think it's about 33% that comes from income tax. If we cut spending in welfare and warefare-type situations, we could save a substantial amount of money.

And guys, he won't be able to get people out of Japan and Europe fast. There is too much invested into those bases and since their is no opposition (like the Middle East) there is no high priority for it.

[brandon]

Ummmm..... Do you even know what income tax pays for? It's not the military.

Ok I did a little research on my own in the hopes of proving you wrong, and I am now sure you are wrong.

take a look at this chart... http://encarta.msn.com/media_461547847/U_S_Federal_Revenues.html

About55% of the governments income coming from income tax, and our military spending accounting for about 25% or more of the governments spending. An additional 38% of the governments income is strictly used for social programs, not defense. So if they are not using the income tax for defense, then that leaves only 7% to be spent on defense. What you say makes no sence. Tell me now, which slice of that pie funds the military?

[Syren123]

Our current military, which is on 'roids, is now funded by deficit spending. There isn't a country on this planet or any other than can fund the bottomless money pit of empire building we have going on now. So your Congress tells your President that it's okay to print money to dilute your dollar into nothingness by passing the military appropriations bills Bush presents to them.

Personal income tax pays the interest on the debt to the Fed and nothing else. Corporate income taxes pay for the entitlement programs, running the govt, and a small part of the military. The rest is paid for by printing presses.

[johnrocks]

You know, I've been a Ron Paul supporter for years but this is the one area that bothers and worries me. I am all for abolishing the IRS but not at the expense of not having a strong defense(emphasis defense), I just wish that he woulld explain this in more detail for it would relieve a lot of worry.

[brandon]

Our current military, which is on 'roids, is now funded by deficit spending. There isn't a country on this planet or any other than can fund the bottomless money pit of empire building we have going on now. So your Congress tells your President that it's okay to print money to dilute your dollar into nothingness by passing the military appropriations bills Bush presents to them.

Personal income tax pays the interest on the debt to the Fed and nothing else. Corporate income taxes pay for the entitlement programs, running the govt, and a small part of the military. The rest is paid for by printing presses.

Thank you very much for that clarification. So is Ron Paul in favor of keeping the Corporate Income tax? Or does he want to get rid of both?

[Syren123]

Ron Paul has said that if we brought home our military not just from Iraq but from all 132 countries where we have bases around the world, the savings would be so substantial that we could still fund all of our entitlement and welfare programs no problem. So people don't have to worry about him cutting welfare - that's not even on his agenda.

Reducing military spending will go a long way in curing our financial ails and will give the US time to recover from the spending drunk the neo-cons have been on for 6 years.

[Syren123]

Thank you very much for that clarification. So is Ron Paul in favor of keeping the Corporate Income tax? Or does he want to get rid of both?

Corporate income tax is specified in the Constitution. No problem with that.
Income tax on labor was never intended by the Constitution and was completely unnecessary until the creation of the Federal Reserve. The Supreme Court has even ruled in 2 cases that the 16th Amendment does NOT GIVE THE GOVT THE POWER TO COLLECT ANY NEW TAXES, even tho the govt does it anyway via the unconstitutional IRS. The personal income tax was forced upon the people illegally for the sole purpose of paying interest on money borrowed by the govt from the privately owned Federal Reserve central bank. Nothing more.

That is why Ron Paul wants to get rid of both the Fed and the IRS. Get rid of one, you don't need the other.

[brandon]

Ron Paul has said that if we brought home our military not just from Iraq but from all 132 countries where we have bases around the world, the savings would be so substantial that we could still fund all of our entitlement and welfare programs no problem. So people don't have to worry about him cutting welfare - that's not even on his agenda.

Reducing military spending will go a long way in curing our financial ails and will give the US time to recover from the spending drunk the neo-cons have been on for 6 years.

I was listening to Alan Greenspan on NPR yesterday and he was saying that our current military spending is the least of our worries, it is pale in comparison to how much money we will soon owe people in social security. I think it is something like a projected 50 trillion dollars. So what do we do about this? Do we tell all these people, oh too bad, that was a different government that promised you benefits, you're shit out of luck.

[fletcher]

This is the 2007 budget. It will give you an idea where the money comes from and where it is spent.

Total Receipts

Estimated receipts for fiscal year 2007 are $2.4 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This expected income is broken down by the following sources:

* $1.1 trillion (+12.1%) - Individual income tax
* $884.1 billion (+7.4%) - Social Security and other payroll taxes
* $260.6 billion (+15.5%) - Corporate income tax
* $74.6 billion (+1.3%) - Excise taxes
* $28.1 billion (+0.7%) - Customs duties
* $23.7 billion (+9.2%) - Estate and gift taxes
* $48.4 billion (+14.0%) - Other

Total Spending

The President's budget for 2007 totals $2.8 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:

* $699 billion (+4.0%) - Defense
* $586.1 billion (+7.0%) - Social Security
* $394.5 billion (+12.4%) - Medicare
* $367.0 billion (+2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare
* $276.4 billion (+2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related
* $243.7 billion (+13.4%) - Interest on debt
* $89.9 billion (+1.3%) - Education and training
* $76.9 billion (+8.1%) - Transportation
* $72.6 billion (+5.8%) - Veterans' benefits
* $43.5 billion (+9.2%) - Administration of justice
* $33.1 billion (+5.7%) - Natural resources and environment
* $32.5 billion (+15.4%) - Foreign affairs
* $27.0 billion (+3.7%) - Agriculture
* $26.8 billion (+28.7%) - Community and regional development
* $25.0 billion (+4.0%) - Science and technology
* $20.1 billion (+11.4%) - General government
* $1.1 billion (+47.6%) - Energy

[Syren123]

Alan Greenspan, as head of the Federal Reserve, was in the BUSINESS of lending money to the US Govt. He can say anything he wants NOW...blame Bush for overspending, whatever...he printed money and manipulated the economy as much as every other Fed chair since 1912.

Current military spending is the least of our worries?! How does he figure that? A billion dollars printed a day doesn't cause inflation and all kinds of other problems? Please.

Social security is a bankrupt program as are ALL government entitlement programs. The government is BANKRUPT!! It has no hard backing - the money they borrow from the Fed is PAPER backed by nothing but the good name of the US.

Yes. That is exactly what they are going to tell people. They're SHIT out of luck and all the money you put in is gone. But...there are way worse things going to happen before Social Security tanks, like the 50% devaluation of our currency and a recession like we've never seen.

As much as I respect Alan Greenspan for his economic knowledge, he's a sell out criminal of the worst kind because he KNEW what he was doing yet did it anyway. He's brilliant and could have used his powers for good, but he didn't. He became chairman of the Fed and is now as much a criminal thief as Congress.

[Syren123]

This is the 2007 budget. It will give you an idea where the money comes from and where it is spent.

Total Receipts

Estimated receipts for fiscal year 2007 are $2.4 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This expected income is broken down by the following sources:

* $1.1 trillion (+12.1%) - Individual income tax
* $884.1 billion (+7.4%) - Social Security and other payroll taxes
* $260.6 billion (+15.5%) - Corporate income tax
* $74.6 billion (+1.3%) - Excise taxes
* $28.1 billion (+0.7%) - Customs duties
* $23.7 billion (+9.2%) - Estate and gift taxes
* $48.4 billion (+14.0%) - Other

Total Spending

The President's budget for 2007 totals $2.8 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:

* $699 billion (+4.0%) - Defense
* $586.1 billion (+7.0%) - Social Security
* $394.5 billion (+12.4%) - Medicare
* $367.0 billion (+2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare
* $276.4 billion (+2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related
* $243.7 billion (+13.4%) - Interest on debt
* $89.9 billion (+1.3%) - Education and training
* $76.9 billion (+8.1%) - Transportation
* $72.6 billion (+5.8%) - Veterans' benefits
* $43.5 billion (+9.2%) - Administration of justice
* $33.1 billion (+5.7%) - Natural resources and environment
* $32.5 billion (+15.4%) - Foreign affairs
* $27.0 billion (+3.7%) - Agriculture
* $26.8 billion (+28.7%) - Community and regional development
* $25.0 billion (+4.0%) - Science and technology
* $20.1 billion (+11.4%) - General government
* $1.1 billion (+47.6%) - Energy

Those are cooked numbers, if you got them off a govt website.

[brandon]

This is the 2007 budget. It will give you an idea where the money comes from and where it is spent.

Total Receipts

Estimated receipts for fiscal year 2007 are $2.4 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This expected income is broken down by the following sources:

* $1.1 trillion (+12.1%) - Individual income tax
* $884.1 billion (+7.4%) - Social Security and other payroll taxes
* $260.6 billion (+15.5%) - Corporate income tax
* $74.6 billion (+1.3%) - Excise taxes
* $28.1 billion (+0.7%) - Customs duties
* $23.7 billion (+9.2%) - Estate and gift taxes
* $48.4 billion (+14.0%) - Other

Total Spending

The President's budget for 2007 totals $2.8 trillion. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage change compared to 2006. This budget request is broken down by the following expenditures:

* $699 billion (+4.0%) - Defense
* $586.1 billion (+7.0%) - Social Security
* $394.5 billion (+12.4%) - Medicare
* $367.0 billion (+2.0%) - Unemployment and welfare
* $276.4 billion (+2.9%) - Medicaid and other health related
* $243.7 billion (+13.4%) - Interest on debt
* $89.9 billion (+1.3%) - Education and training
* $76.9 billion (+8.1%) - Transportation
* $72.6 billion (+5.8%) - Veterans' benefits
* $43.5 billion (+9.2%) - Administration of justice
* $33.1 billion (+5.7%) - Natural resources and environment
* $32.5 billion (+15.4%) - Foreign affairs
* $27.0 billion (+3.7%) - Agriculture
* $26.8 billion (+28.7%) - Community and regional development
* $25.0 billion (+4.0%) - Science and technology
* $20.1 billion (+11.4%) - General government
* $1.1 billion (+47.6%) - Energy


Interesting, thanks for that. It would be really interesting to see what would happen if we had science and tech as our number one priority. Of course the free market can take care of most scientific research, but some things without current commercial value such as string theory and most of theoretical physics could really make some amazing breakthroughs. Imagine if we funded particle accelerators like we fund our nation building.

Im not saying this would be a good idea, just interesting.

[Syren123]

But if there weren't onerous taxes and fees on every fricking thing and there were actual free trade and commerce, there would be money to fund all that stuff. Monopolies and govt subsidized bullshit squash the true prosperity and innovation that would result if people were left the f alone.

It's hard to see because we're so used to big govt funding of stuff, but it's like healthcare: if they govt stayed out of it, it would work much more efficiently like it used to in the 60s.