POTUS: "America Is Not a Christian, Jewish or Muslim Nation"

[ourlongroad]

I missed this when it first came out. Apologize in advance if this is a duplicate post, but I didn't see any posts on this when searching the forum.

YouTube - President Obama: "America Is Not a Christian, Jewish or Muslim Nation" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IHq5g-oW-k)




Christian Nation (http://www.jbs.org/index.php/component/myblog/Christian-Nation.html)
Posted by: SevenS in Untagged on Apr 26, 2009


“Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor,” Mathew? Mark? Luke? The Pope? Not quite, these were the right wing religious ramblings of our first President, George Washington. The God, Mr. Washington was referring wasn't some random higher power, of his choosing, or some insignificant spiritual philosophy. No, our first President was referencing the very same Lord that sent his only son to die for our sins.

Apparently, the founding fathers affinity for Christian values and divine ideology is a fact that has eluded the modern progressive, or maybe it's just conveniently overlooked. A few weeks back, President Obama declared, “America is not a Christian nation” John Adams, who said, “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.” would probably disagree with Obama, strongly, as would the majority of founders. Who gave Mr. Obama the right to suggest that this is anything but a Christian nation? Oh yes, we did.

If you are under any illusion that the battle for America's soul is getting near, your dead wrong, because it's already here. The question is, “What now?” Academia continues to absorb more and more of the secular progressives social agenda, indoctrinating our children into the godless gay and lesbian world view. Now what? Samuel Adams said, “He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all.” The truth is, the further these indignant secular progressives take us down the road to moral degradation, the closer we become to a society that no longer holds itself accountable to anything more divine than a bloated government.

What we are witnessing is the prelude to oppression and persecution, the Christian way of life, thus the American way of life, and it's being obliterated. Earlier this week Taliban executed two Christians in Pakistan, who wouldn't subscribe to Islam. It seems that Christians were peacefully protesting some anti-Christian slogans (graffiti) , when the attackers decided to go door to door shouting, “You infidels have to convert to Islam or die.”. When the Christians resisted, they were murdered.

Ten years ago, we would have never imagined a Christian losing the Miss America pageant for her beliefs, yet we will sit and say nothing. Ten years from now, when Christians are murdered for their beliefs, what will we say. Must we let this escalate any longer? Christian persecution is here. Millions of our Christian brothers and sisters are slaughtered around the globe, and it's OK. In the 90's over in Bosnia, when Muslims were being murdered, the world could not sleep at night. Milosevic, was hunted and tried for war crimes, progressives gathered in the streets and bought their little bumper stickers, to ease their troubled hearts. Where are the bumper stickers for the persecuted Christians in Orissa?

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”

---Benjamin Franklin

[Andrew-Austin]

I agree with the President.

[Aratus]

america publically is by law something other than a theocracy.
america has people who are christian, jewish and muslim, inside
our vast population & we have people who be part of other faiths, too

[MRoCkEd]

How can a non-human entity like a nation be of a certain religion?

[Zolah]

I agree with the President.

Me too...but if electing a black president is an historic moment, electing an atheist will take a freaking miracle.

[KoldKut]

...

[Brian4Liberty]

The Founders were mostly Christian, as was the majority of the country. That being said, they also innovated the concept of separation of Church and State.

Morality is necessary, but it does not have to stem from any religion. The majority of our immoral corporate and elected leaders are religious, but they were not moral. Bernie Madoff is just one example.

[InterestedParticipant]

The phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state


Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man &
his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the
legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate
with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that
their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between
Church & State.

When you actually read what Jefferson wrote, it is not that they wanted a separation of church and state, it is that they did NOT want the state to interfere with an individual's right to practice religion or spiritual beliefs.

I'd consider this comment by POTUS to be overstepping his bounds under the first amendment, as comments by a state leader have great influence.


"One of the great strengths of the United States is … we have a very large Christian population -- we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values."

Besides, I'd like to know where he thinks this country gets its values from? And finally, we're not citizens, we're sovereign individuals.

[Feenix566]

electing an atheist will take a freaking miracle.

Oh, the irony. I love it!

[Andrew-Austin]

I'd consider this comment by POTUS to be overstepping his bounds under the first amendment, as comments by a state leader have great influence.

The President has a right to free speech, he can speak as an opinionated individual just as we can.




Besides, I'd like to know where he thinks this country gets its values from?

Individuals adopt their values from a multitude of different sources.


And finally, we're not citizens, we're sovereign individuals.

I agree Obama can't accurately speak for or pretend to represent the millions of people who make up the territory know as the United States. Saying "this country" when referring to its entire populace is just an abstraction, no one can speak for "we the people".

[Yieu]

This is one thing I actually agree with the President on. A "Christian Nation" implies a State Religion -- a Theocracy if you will. We do not have that, we never have had that, and I hope we never do.

[BlackTerrel]

What's the problem?

[KoldKut]

...

[ourlongroad]

Obama did not pay adequate homage to the OP's invisible friend.
:)

[Athan]

THIS IS THE TRUTH THAT SHOULDN'T DIVIDE AMERICANS REGARDLESS OF THEIR FAITH.

Bambi is right in that the GOVERNMENT is not a christian nation. America has many different religions and should always remain tolerant and respectful of a persons' religion.

However if you WANT the government to pay respect to your religion such as being able to say a prayer to school, or have the student body say "under God" then you MUST work to get the government OUT OF SCHOOL and education. This is where the problem lies.

The government's involvement in public life such as schools will ALWAYS infringe on the faith of that community.

[ourlongroad]

In POTUS inauguration speech he included a reference to non-believers. I guess that didn't test well in the focus groups so they removed the reference in the speech posted in the OP.

YouTube - Citing Atheists Offensive in Obama Inaugural Address? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twoXZE9U0Io)

But even with Obama's attempts to magnify the size and strength of non-believer, they're sill a pretty damn small part of this nation.

According to the CIA, the following is the order of religious preferences in the United States:

* Christian: (78.5%)

- Protestant (51.3%)
- Roman Catholic (23.9%)
- Mormon (1.7%)
- other Christian (1.6%)

* unaffiliated (12.1%)
* none (4%)
* other or unspecified (2.5%)
* Jewish (1.7%)
* Buddhist (0.7%)
* Muslim (0.6%)

[BeFranklin]

The phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists,

It actually comes from a set of well known works by Roger Williams, generally regarded as founding the first baptist church in America, founder of RI, and a preacher, which is why Jefferson quoted it to the danbury baptists.

There is a reason to edit that out by the way, because preachers aren't suppose to have done anything to found the country. It interferes with the propaganda.

Roger Williams is also called the founder of religious liberty.

[Reason]

I agree with the President.

yup, on this subject at least, I have to agree

[Uriel999]

Me too...but if electing a black president is an historic moment, electing an atheist will take a freaking miracle.

or and act of god. :D eerrrrr invisible flying spaghetti monster!

BTW I was looking for a picture of the fsm and in a google found this and had to laugh. To the Christians who came up with this, you gave me a good laugh:

http://www.irreligion.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/fsm-rape.jpg

[BeFranklin]

FYI - A Christian nation is not necessary the same thing as a christian governement. Obama is wrong. It implies that the people in general weren't Christians when the country was founded.

b: a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government.

I suggest that this is the real thrust of bothering to even comment on it.

[BeFranklin]

Contrast Obama's speech to George Washington's:

For this you have every inducement of sympathy and interest. Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the independence and liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts of common dangers, sufferings, and successes.

But these considerations, however powerfully they address themselves to your sensibility, are greatly outweighed by those which apply more immediately to your interest. Here every portion of our country finds the most commanding motives for carefully guarding and preserving the union of the whole.
....
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?

Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.
....
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
etc

How times have changed. It looks like George Washington and Obama are both right. We've political correctly have called every conflicting and contradicting falsehood equal, no longer have only minor differences in religion, and we've reaped what we've sown, and God's wraith is upon us.

[RickyJ]

How can a non-human entity like a nation be of a certain religion?

Funny. ISRAEL. OK? Duh!

Secular humanism -> Religion

Evolution -> Religion

Whatever you believe that is not based in FACTS is a religion. Religion is everywhere.

[diggronpaul]

Funny. ISRAEL. OK? Duh!

Secular humanism -> Religion

Evolution -> Religion

Whatever you believe that is not based in FACTS is a religion. Religion is everywhere.
I would add to your list...

Keynsian Economics (and our current monetary system) => Religion

Psychology & Psychiatry => Religion

[idiom]

I think America should have licensed and authorised pastors and priests like in other nations.

People should only be allowed approved religions, not all this independent protestant/baptist heresy.

[diggronpaul]

I think America should have licensed and authorised pastors and priests like in other nations.

People should only be allowed approved religions, not all this independent protestant/baptist heresy.
And is it your wish to be the new Czar over all Religious Licenses, which are ultimately to be whittled down to a one-religion license, for convenience, of course?

[Athan]

Funny. ISRAEL. OK? Duh!


I think that is a good comparison. We are not like Israel. This is America. The problem isn't the government is secular, its that it isn't supposed to be this big and so involved in our lives.

[Theocrat]

Obama needs to read the book linked in my signature.

[idiom]

And is it your wish to be the new Czar over all Religious Licenses, which are ultimately to be whittled down to a one-religion license, for convenience, of course?

Hopefully. In the interests of efficiency change and freedom.

[Reason]

I hope this "Idiom" guy is joking... not sure how he could end up here on a RP forum and have views like that...

/disturbed

[idiom]

I hope this "Idiom" guy is joking... not sure how he could end up here on a RP forum and have views like that...

/disturbed

I honestly believe in the seperation of church and state. Mostly for the saftey of the church. What can I say, I'm a fan of history.

There are plenty of other however who think, that if enough people of the right religion got into government it would create a utopia. Or that this utopia existed in the past precisely because enough people of the 'correct' religion were elected.

My previous posts in this thread are only slightly further along the 'My Religion is The Religion' spectrum than what passes for completely sane around here.

[Yieu]

As Ron Paul supporters, we know to research issues more deeply than most.

So no one here really believes America is a 'Christian Nation', right?

[ourlongroad]

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens


It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?


I think I wanna cry, that's stuff is so beautiful. Thanks so much for posting.

This speech screams-out why they have been going after our souls for so long. They knew the strength of our foundation and they have been wanting to break it since we told them to F-off.

I started a thread called Here's your Godless Nation (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=190764), where I am attempting to show how they utilize some aspects of culture to slowly ponerize us (ie. in part, turn us away from faith and out foundations). This is a key goal for them, and they have had some success with it as so obviously displayed in these forums.

Thanks again, this speech clearly demonstrates the absolute importance of our foundations in order to remain free and prosperous. I hope more will see this as the attacks on our humanity and souls grow more ominous.

[Todd]

Not saying we are a Christian nation....but what to make of this?



“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.” George Washington


"Christianity and Western Civilization are unimaginable apart from one another. All culture arises out of religion. When religious faith decays, culture must decline, though often seeming to flourish for a space after the religion which has nourished it has sunk into disbelief" - Russell Kirk
Without the foundations me thinks the West would not be what it is today. Destroying those foundations is also destroying the principles of liberty IMO.

[haaaylee]

Not saying we are a Christian nation....but what to make of this?



Without the foundations me thinks the West would not be what it is today. Destroying those foundations is also destroying the principles of liberty IMO.


I can trump that:


"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." - Thomas Jefferson

[Todd]

I can trump that:


"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." - Thomas Jefferson

I'm not tying to "trump" anything
I'm saying to deny Christian philosophy, religion, whatever, on the impact of Western Civilization is to be ignorant. Forgetting where you came from is a great way to end up in tyranny. Oh wait.....too late. :(

[ourlongroad]

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." - Thomas Jefferson
Let's go down the road that it is all mythology, as you are presenting in your post. Let's hold that assumption and say that that is an absolute truth for the sake of this post.

Given this assumption, I would then argue that there are mythologies that hurt humanity and then they're are mythologies that protect mythology. What I have understood recently is that our Founders were genius in the way they tied the concept of the God mythology to a concept of unalienable rights and absolute truths. So, what I am saying is that our Founder built a societal construct that is based on one of these mythologies, and they made it so that it protects the individual better than any other system previous to it. All one has to do is to subscribe to and practice some simple tenants and the foundations of the system remain strong across all of society.

So, why 'dis' a mythology if the mythology actually works to protect the individual better than any other system ever devised? That's my point. So what if it's a mythology. For about a 100 years that mythology was the pillars to the greatest freedoms and wealth generation humankind has ever seen. Why not maintain it? Can you really argue against it? And why would you?

P.S. You know, higher mathematics is a mythology as well. So is some science. They're theoretical hogwash wrapped-up in the religion-of-science, but the media have programmed the public that science is the new religion and God + Faith are no longer politically correct. And what do you think psychology is?

[idiom]

There is a huge difference between being a nation of Christians (which the founders were more or less) and a Christian Nation which certain sects are trying to rewrite history with.

[Xenophage]

Me too...but if electing a black president is an historic moment, electing an atheist will take a freaking miracle.

How ironic, indeed! LOL

[BlackTerrel]

Me too...but if electing a black president is an historic moment, electing an atheist will take a freaking miracle.

Won't happen. At least not for a long time. Americans like black people. Americans don't like atheists.

I'm speaking in generalities of course.

[CJLauderdale4]

This has already been decided by the U.S. Supreme Court:

By a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court of the United States, in Holy Trinity Church v. U.S., 143 U.S. 457 (1892) declared in the Opinion written for the Court by Mr. Justice Brewer, that "These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

You can replace "is" with "was" if you like. But in 1892, I guess we were....

[Yieu]

There is a huge difference between being a nation of Christians (which the founders were more or less) and a Christian Nation which certain sects are trying to rewrite history with.

This is the main point right here -- a Christian Nation is a government with a State Religion. Isn't that forbidden by the Constitution?

America never was, is not, and hopefully never will be a Christian Nation. I thought that was obvious enough to the folks here.

[diggronpaul]

This has already been decided by the U.S. Supreme Court:

By a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court of the United States, in Holy Trinity Church v. U.S., 143 U.S. 457 (1892) declared in the Opinion written for the Court by Mr. Justice Brewer, that "These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

You can replace "is" with "was" if you like. But in 1892, I guess we were....
Fascinating. I'm curious how you found this excerpt.

[Yieu]

I think I wanna cry, that's stuff is so beautiful. Thanks so much for posting.

This speech screams-out why they have been going after our souls for so long. They knew the strength of our foundation and they have been wanting to break it since we told them to F-off.

I started a thread called Here's your Godless Nation (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=190764), where I am attempting to show how they utilize some aspects of culture to slowly ponerize us (ie. in part, turn us away from faith and out foundations). This is a key goal for them, and they have had some success with it as so obviously displayed in these forums.

Thanks again, this speech clearly demonstrates the absolute importance of our foundations in order to remain free and prosperous. I hope more will see this as the attacks on our humanity and souls grow more ominous.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on there, just because someone is willing to admit that America is not a Christian Nation does not mean he is not religious. Also, Christianity is not the only religion, nor the only religion with morals.

[Yieu]

This has already been decided by the U.S. Supreme Court:

By a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court of the United States, in Holy Trinity Church v. U.S., 143 U.S. 457 (1892) declared in the Opinion written for the Court by Mr. Justice Brewer, that "These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

You can replace "is" with "was" if you like. But in 1892, I guess we were....

I think they were mistaken, if this is an accurate quote. They did not realize the graveness of what they said. A State Religion? That is extremely anti-liberty. There are a lot of Christians in America, and a lot of its founders were Christian -- but that is completely different than a 'Christian Nation'.

[CJLauderdale4]

I think they were mistaken, if this is an accurate quote. They did not realize the graveness of what they said. A State Religion? That is extremely anti-liberty. There are a lot of Christians in America, and a lot of its founders were Christian -- but that is completely different than a 'Christian Nation'.

This was truly a court case. However, when they said "nation", they meant the overwhelming majority of the "People". The nation is "We the People", not the government. Jsut like a Christian church is the group of Christian people, not the church building. More people in the late 1800's understood this as most of them were Protestant Christians. People today don't always understand this since not as many Americans are of this same faith.

The U.S. Supreme Court actually spent close to 10 years to make this decision and I do not think they meant a State religion.

However, keep in mind that many States had State religions through the early 1800's. Because the U.S. Consitution had only Federal jurisdiction prior to the 14th Amendment. All States now have Constitutions that prohibit a State religion.

[BeFranklin]

I think they were mistaken, if this is an accurate quote. They did not realize the graveness of what they said. A State Religion? That is extremely anti-liberty. There are a lot of Christians in America, and a lot of its founders were Christian -- but that is completely different than a 'Christian Nation'.

Same thing as above. Government is not always equivelent to the word "nation" or "country".

[BeFranklin]

I think I wanna cry, that's stuff is so beautiful. Thanks so much for posting.

This speech screams-out why they have been going after our souls for so long. They knew the strength of our foundation and they have been wanting to break it since we told them to F-off.

I started a thread called Here's your Godless Nation (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=190764), where I am attempting to show how they utilize some aspects of culture to slowly ponerize us (ie. in part, turn us away from faith and out foundations). This is a key goal for them, and they have had some success with it as so obviously displayed in these forums.

Thanks again, this speech clearly demonstrates the absolute importance of our foundations in order to remain free and prosperous. I hope more will see this as the attacks on our humanity and souls grow more ominous.

Besides the George Washington farewell speech, you might want to check out these very large threads:

Deists, The founders weren't.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173113

Atheists, The founders weren't.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173124

Thread on Revolution Era Sermons and the Black Milita
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=175054

Which isn't 1/10th of what is out there. The history has been rewritten, and the people who aren't saved find it comfortable to accept the falsehood.

[BeFranklin]

I can trump that:

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." - Thomas Jefferson

Hard to believe from a man that attended church every week and made the architectural designs for his local one.

Most Jefferson quotes are either made up or taken out of context. You'll need to read the actual source documents, and post a link to the whole thing to have a point.

[BeFranklin]

This has already been decided by the U.S. Supreme Court:

By a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court of the United States, in Holy Trinity Church v. U.S., 143 U.S. 457 (1892) declared in the Opinion written for the Court by Mr. Justice Brewer, that "These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

You can replace "is" with "was" if you like. But in 1892, I guess we were....

So in example, there is nothing unusual by saying In God We Trust or One Nation Under God.

[BeFranklin]

Washington General Orders

Head Quarters, New York, July 9, 1776.
Parole Manchester. Countersign Norfolk.
John Evans of Capt. Ledyards Company Col McDougall's Regiment--Hopkins Rice of Capt. Pierce's Company Col Ritzema's Regiment having been tried by a General Court Martial whereof Col. Read was President and found guilty of "Desertion," were sentenced to receive each Thirty-nine Lashes. The General approves the Sentences and orders them to be executed at the usual time and place.
Passes to go from the City are hereafter to be granted by John Berrien, Henry Wilmot and John Ray Junr. a Committee of the City appointed for that purpose--Officers of the Guards at the Ferries and Wharves, to be careful in making this regulation known to the Sentries, who are to see that the passes are signed by one of the above persons, and to be careful no Soldier goes over the Ferry without a pass from a General officer.

The North River Guard to be removed to the Market House near the Ferry-Stairs, as soon as it is fitted up.

The Hon. Continental Congress having been pleased to allow a Chaplain to each Regiment, with the pay of Thirty-three Dollars and one third pr month--The Colonels or commanding officers of each regiment are directed to procure Chaplains accordingly; persons of good Characters and exemplary lives--To see that all inferior officers and soldiers pay them a suitable respect and attend carefully upon religious exercises. The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger--The General hopes and trusts, that every officer and man, will endeavour so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country.

The Hon. The Continental Congress, impelled by the dictates of duty, policy and necessity, having been pleased to dissolve the Connection which subsisted between this Country, and Great Britain, and to declare the United Colonies of North America, free and independent States: The several brigades are to be drawn up this evening on their respective Parades, at Six OClock, when the declaration of Congress, shewing the grounds and reasons of this measure, is to be read with an audible voice.

The General hopes this important Event will serve as a fresh incentive to every officer, and soldier, to act with Fidelity and Courage, as knowing that now the peace and safety of his Country depends (under God) solely on the success of our arms: And that he is now in the service of a State, possessed of sufficient power to reward his merit, and advance him to the highest Honors of a free Country.
The Brigade Majors are to receive, at the Adjutant Generals Office, several of the Declarations to be delivered to the Brigadiers General, and the Colonels of Regiments.

The Brigade Majors are to be excused from farther attendance at Head Quarters, except to receive the Orders of the day, that their time and attention may be withdrawn as little as possible, from the duties of their respective brigades.

In the above Obama quote, any importance to being a Christian seems to be negated while being propagated by the leader of the country. Here is the important difference with George Washington.

[Yieu]

So in example, there is nothing unusual by saying In God We Trust or One Nation Under God.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with In God We Trust or One Nation Under God, because those statements are about God and a religious people, not a specific religion. Christianity is not the only religion which worships God.

I think you are confusing every other religion with atheists... Just because someone admits there is no State Sponsored religion ('Christian Nation'), does not mean they are atheist. A Christian could also believe this.

There is no reason to feel as though you are a part of an elite collective due to your religion, otherwise why else is there a desire to feel as though this is a Christian Nation? It is certainly a fact that there are and have been more Christians than people of other religions in this nation, and that many of the founders were Christian, and it is good and admirable that they are/were religious, but that they are/were Christian in particular (in contrast with other religions) is not a point of superiority.

[ProBlue33]

And where does Ron Paul get his values from?

It's just that in his case he doesn't believe in forcing people to abide by them.
But if he was governor of a state it would be very interesting to see how he would run things because he always says it's up to each state to decide on the tough issues. So now he would have to make those tough choices

Would he allow the following under his Judao christian belief structure.

Drugs-Yes he views it like alcohol

Abortion- No, only under the mothers life being in danger

Capital Punishment- Yes

Gay Marriage-No, he might allow civil unions, in the name of freedom and equality, but traditional marriage is reserved for a man and a woman

If you don't think that Ron Paul personal morality and goodness and honesty aren't driven in part by his beleif structure as a christian, you have totally misread him.

[Yieu]

I would certainly hope that he gets his values from religion!

I know he does, and that is good. More politicians should. That it is from the Christian religion is not the issue -- that it is from religion is important, though.

[BeFranklin]

I think you are confusing every other religion with atheists... Just because someone admits there is no State Sponsored religion ('Christian Nation'), does not mean they are atheist. A Christian could also believe this.
.

I doubt I am confusing anything.

When America was founded it was a Christian nation, and most of the state constitutions created in 1776 during the revolution required you to be a Christian to hold office.

All the way until maybe 40-60 years ago, America remained a Christian nation. Nation here should not be confused with the word government.

[braumstr]

It does not matter what the founders religion was, it is quite irrelevant.

Someone needs to google Libertarianism.

If Obama had actually advocated any religion over another, THAT would be a problem.

[BeFranklin]

It does not matter what the founders religion was, it is quite irrelevant.

Someone needs to google Libertarianism.

If Obama had actually advocated any religion over another, THAT would be a problem.

Well, you've got a problem with George Washington and most of the founders then. And that is basically my point, a lot of people have nothing in common with the founders of our country (be they the well known leaders or the people in general). George Washington and the rest of the founders had no problems seeking publicly God.

[BeFranklin]

Main Entry: na·tion
Pronunciation: \ˈnā-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English nacioun, from Anglo-French naciun, from Latin nation-, natio birth, race, nation, from nasci to be born; akin to Latin gignere to beget — more at kin
Date: 14th century
1 a (1): nationality 5a (2): a politically organized nationality (3): a non-Jewish nationality <why do the nations conspire — Psalms 2:1 (Revised Standard Version)> b: a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government c: a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status
2archaic : group, aggregation
3: a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)

Nation is not the same word as governmnet. It tends to mean more generally the same as "people".

Also note its etymology which ties in to some other threads here. Its related to the word "to be born".

[HOLLYWOOD]

Not questioning your statements... just that more people have suffered and died because of religion over the past 2 millennium, than about any other cause. Well, maybe governments have caused 10's of millions of innocents suffering/deaths.

Do you think you can win or conquer a country through a religious war? Didin't the planet waste centuries with the "HOLY WARS / DARK AGES? How's things going in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Religion interlaced with government appears to be quite a problem over history.




I would certainly hope that he gets his values from religion!

I know he does, and that is good. More politicians should. That it is from the Christian religion is not the issue -- that it is from religion is important, though.

[BeFranklin]

Not questioning your statements... just that more people have suffered and died because of religion over the past 2 millennium, than about any other cause.

Actually, I believe athiest marxist countries and the ever loving anti jewish religion Nazis exceeded that number by quite a bit. The inquisitions were appaling. But athiests have certainly killed many.

The right way to have stated this was "government instituted state religions" have killed many. Then I'd agree.

Religions without government backed force can't kill anyone.

[haaaylee]

It does not matter what the founders religion was, it is quite irrelevant.

Someone needs to google Libertarianism.

If Obama had actually advocated any religion over another, THAT would be a problem.

You don't have to believe in a god to have morals, or great ideas on how to run a country. Maybe there were religious, maybe they weren't. IRRELEVANT. they were men with a vision. That is all. this whole discussion makes me think some of you believe those of us who do not believe would not be capable of their intelligence... a large majority of ron paul supporters are atheist/agnostic. and we seem to be on the same page as the rest of you. god or no god, who honestly cares? this is life as we know it -- we, as humans, take care of it. and we are in charge of protecting it.

[BeFranklin]

You don't have to believe in a god to have morals, or great ideas on how to run a country. Maybe there were religious, maybe they weren't. IRRELEVANT. they were men with a vision. That is all. this whole discussion makes me think some of you believe those of us who do not believe would not be capable of their intelligence... a large majority of ron paul supporters are atheist/agnostic. and we seem to be on the same page as the rest of you. god or no god, who honestly cares? this is life as we know it -- we, as humans, take care of it. and we are in charge of protecting it.

All opinion asserted as someone else has to believe them.

And I don't. Not only is it not irrelevant, but the country won't continue as a free county unless it gets back to God.

http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/american-independence-speech-by-samuel-adams-august-1-1776.html
Samuel Adams Speech, August 1st, 1776

COUNTRYMEN AND BRETHREN: I would gladly have declined an honor, to which I find myself unequal. I have not the calmness and impartiality which the infinite importance of this occasion demands. I will not deny the charge of my enemies, that resentment for the accumulated injuries of our country, and an ardor for her glory, rising to enthusiasm, may deprive me of that accuracy of judgment and expression which men of cooler passions may Possess. Let me beseech you, then, to hear me with caution, to examine without prejudice, and to correct the mistakes into which I may be hurried by my zeal.

Truth loves an appeal to the common-sense of mankind. Your unperverted understandings can best determine on subjects of a practical nature. The positions and plans which are said to be above the comprehension of the multitude may be always suspected to be visionary and fruitless. He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all.

Our forefathers threw off the yoke of popery in religion: for you is reserved the honor of levelling the popery of politics. They opened the Bible to all, and maintained the capacity of every man to judge for himself in religion. Are we sufficient for the comprehension of the sublimest spiritual truths, and unequal to material and temporal ones? Heaven hath trusted us with the management of things for eternity, and man denies us ability to judge of the present, or to know from our feelings the experience that will make us happy. “You can discern,” say they, “objects distant and remote, but cannot perceive those within your grasp. Let us have the distribution of present goods, and cut out and manage as you please the interests of futurity.” This day, I trust the reign of political protestantism will commence. We have explored the temple of royalty, and found that the idol we have bowed down to, has eyes which see not, ears that hear not our prayers, and a heart like the nether millstone. We have this day restored the Sovereign, to whom alone men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and with a propitious eye beholds his subjects assuming that freedom of thought, and dignity of self-direction which He bestowed on them. From the rising to the setting sun, may His kingdom come.
....

[BeFranklin]

...

[idiom]

Well the founders were not seceding from and the pilgrims were not running from nations of atheists. If Christianity was providing such amazing freedom in Europe, why did everyone leave?

[BeFranklin]

Well the founders were not seceding from and the pilgrims were not running from nations of atheists. If Christianity was providing such amazing freedom in Europe, why did everyone leave?

Freedom of religion from state run ones is a hallmark of American thought.

However, government is not the same word as nation. Virtually every founder said that religion was necessary for a free government to operate.

Nation is below what a government is. It is the people operating freely in a territory. If the nation is corrupt, there is no hope for a free government.

[diggronpaul]

Nation is below what a government is.
I really enjoy you're comments, but I would argue in the American system that Gov't is subservient to its people and therefore nation is "above" gov't. Thoughts?

[idiom]

Freedom of religion from state run ones is a hallmark of American thought.

However, government is not the same word as nation. Virtually every founder said that religion was necessary for a free government to operate.

Nation is below what a government is. It is the people operating freely in a territory. If the nation is corrupt, there is no hope for a free government.

I guess I am missing your point then. America is a highly religious group of nations. Amazingly it has no corruption.

So maybe what you mean is that a people needs to be uncorrupt (by whatever definition) religious or not.

[BeFranklin]

I really enjoy you're comments, but I would argue in the American system that Gov't is subservient to its people and therefore nation is "above" gov't. Thoughts?

You may be right. I was just trying to order it and vaguely seeing flaws in arranging it. I meant it more like a foundation which you have to have first, which also doesn't quite work out. God should be the foundation.

[BeFranklin]

I guess I am missing your point then. America is a highly religious group of nations. Amazingly it has no corruption.

So maybe what you mean is that a people needs to be uncorrupt (by whatever definition) religious or not.

No, because God really works his will over nations.

I don't believe that just being "moral" is enough (which by itself is bound to fail when you reject Him who created morality), but you need God.

Nations also need prayer. God doesn't just answer individual prayers; his miracles, intervention, and providential care is what protects or may destroy a nation. Reject Him, and America has no hope. The idea that "God" is only a moral system, not Him who rules Heaven and Earth is an atheistic idea which quickly degenerates into "its just one idea among many".

I don't see America getting out of these problems on all sides without God. In fact, I believe God is punishing and warning America to repent.

Likewise, see this Benjamin Franklin quote about God similar to what I am saying:

Benjamin Franklin

Mr. President:

The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks close attendance & continual reasonings with each other -- our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own wont of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of government, and examined the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions suitable to our circumstances.

In this situation of this Assembly groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance.

I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.

[idiom]

Likewise, see this Benjamin Franklin quote about God similar to what I am saying:

Curious that he mentions Babel. A nation that God seems to think would have gotten on merrily without Him. Babel was not confounded due to natural infighting, but God deliberately breaking them up.

So you are saying then, that a nation could be free without God in principle, but God won't let that happen?

[BeFranklin]

Curious that he mentions Babel. A nation that God seems to think would have gotten on merrily without Him. Babel was not confounded due to natural infighting, but God deliberately breaking them up.

So you are saying then, that a nation could be free without God in principle, but God won't let that happen?

No.

[idiom]

Curious, because the Constitution, as reckoned by that quote, was inspired by God to stop an Empire forming, to keep all of the colonies small and mean, to avoid the centralisation of power. Which lines up with God's insertion of racism at Babel and Tribalism in Palestine.