An EMP can put us back in the dark ages

[hotbrownsauce]

An electro magnetic pulse is a very real and serious threat. So much of our current life style here in the USA is based on electronics. If the right nuclear bomb is detonated at the center of the United States at the right altitude the lower 48 could be with out power within seconds and with out computer systems within seconds. Life as we know it destroyed (at the very least to at first troubling degree).

I am interested in your thoughts. Please add information and discuss the threat of an EMP on the USA.

Also you can check out
http://www.empcommission.org

and you can check out an EMP report here:
http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf

*EDITED TO ADD*
Even the Sun is a threat of EMP towards the USA.

**EDITED TO ADD**
HERE IS MORE INFORMATION

PDF http://nipp.org/Adobe/EMP%20Paper%20Final%20November07.pdf

1 hour video from cspan junkie where congressman Roscoe Bartlett gives a 60 minute speech on EMP.
http://cspanjunkie.org/?p=171

The two above links came from
http://smarteconomy.typepad.com/smart_economy/2008/07/electromagnetic.html

***EDITED TO ADD***
Article on EMP hardening
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2004-02/1076681126.Ph.r.html

[idiom]

Oh noes! I canna live without my electronic widgets!!

We would be plunged back into 1960!!

It might actually be a good idea...

[hotbrownsauce]

It seems to me more and more so that being self reliant should be an ability I have in case of an emergency. In fact I think many people should have that ability.

[sailor]

Yeah, but for how long?

[Agent CSL]

If it put us back to 1776 or 1913 I'd be fine with it. Like HBS said, this is just another reason to be self-reliant. Nothing to concern yourself over if you are ready to live off the land and know the basic facts of life.

[virgil47]

I must beg to differ with those that feel it would be no big deal to be plunged back to the 50's or early 60's. My reasoning is that we would not be be returned back to the 50's or 60's but we would be sent back to the late 1800's. If you stop to realize that not only would any equipment that is solid state in nature (TV's, autos, aircraft, communications networks,medical devices, etc.) cease to function instantaneously there would be no equipment from the 50's or 60's available to take its place. The U.S. would have to re manufacture all that was lost. Of course while we are doing that the rest of the world would continue as if nothing had occurred. Most Americans would die of either malnutrition or exposure within the first year or so. Those that survive the first year will be faced with the mass of dead or dying citizenry. Disease would run rampant and infighting amongst the survivors for the remaining resources would be unbelievably vicious. Of course this scenario assumes that no other country decides to invade our nation while we are virtually helpless. If you think things through you should realize that our country is in no position to survive an emp attack.

[torchbearer]

An EMP blast will remove the government control of people through media.
George Orwell was a genius in his writing, our technology makes it easier for us to be enslaved by the government.

[stag15]

This is what bullets and gold are for.

[emazur]

What virgil said.

Besides, think of all the precious stuff most everyone here would have on their computers that would be lost.

And of course your banking records would vanish along with all your cash - severely restricting your access to resources; we'd be living Mad Max in no time. Also I suspect a great many people in hospitals would die very quickly - not only those who rely on machines, but the cutoff of electricity would cut off climate control and make the hospitals unsuitable environments for the sick in short order. And who's to say if anyone working at the hospital would even stay there - they wouldn't be getting paid with the financial system in chaos and all the lights would be off.

That's probably just the tip of the iceburg - would everyone riding in an airplane die? Would nuclear power plants go haywire. I really don't think being hit with an EMP realistically would benefit us in any.

[sailor]

Jeez. The electricity would come back. EMP isn`t permanent. Most appliances would start to work again after the molecules settled and the electricity came back. Your TV wouldn`t suddenly explode, it would just loose power.

It is really only a mayor, mayor problem if you are on a plane when it happens because in that case you are going to die. (Which is why the Soviets never went for fly-by-wire.)

[Athan]

I wouldn't be crying over and EMP burst.

[Rael]

Good book (and free) http://www.giltweasel.com/stuff/LightsOut-Current.pdf

[tangent4ronpaul]

Jeez. The electricity would come back. EMP isn`t permanent. Most appliances would start to work again after the molecules settled and the electricity came back. Your TV wouldn`t suddenly explode, it would just loose power.

It is really only a mayor, mayor problem if you are on a plane when it happens because in that case you are going to die. (Which is why the Soviets never went for fly-by-wire.)

actually EMP *FRIES* electronics. You might be able to repair some things, but they won't come back on their own.

-t

[Time for Change]

I don't want to play into fearmongering here...but the most important electronic item everyone takes for granted is the automobile.

Every aspect of your modern cars is now controlled to some extent by a computer...most importantly...the ignition system.
Whether or not the concern is realistic... the rammifications are significant if that single machine goes dead.

On the bright side...Lots of weight loss will result if this happens...

[hotbrownsauce]

Imagine all the sewer waste left uncleaned that might cause a problem if/when it starts leaking into streams.

I guess the real point with an EMP, nuclear war, or solar flares, is that it seems with each step up makes the floor that much further away. Go too many steps up when our lives get easier and we become more reliable on electronics and electricity, then the harder you'll hit the ground and get hurt or die.

You don't have to be a "crazy nut" to learn how to be self reliant, just a plan. Many other scenarios can play out in which would lead to the same thing of you being self reliant.

[Rael]

I don't want to play into fearmongering here...but the most important electronic item everyone takes for granted is the automobile.

Every aspect of your modern cars is now controlled to some extent by a computer...most importantly...the ignition system.
Whether or not the concern is realistic... the rammifications are significant if that single machine goes dead.

On the bright side...Lots of weight loss will result if this happens...

Yeah, but think about how cheap gas will be.

[Uriel999]

I don't want to play into fearmongering here...but the most important electronic item everyone takes for granted is the automobile.

Every aspect of your modern cars is now controlled to some extent by a computer...most importantly...the ignition system.
Whether or not the concern is realistic... the rammifications are significant if that single machine goes dead.

On the bright side...Lots of weight loss will result if this happens...

That's right, my 67 dodge dart will still be on the road then! Vroom baby!

[idiom]

Most industrial things, Nuclear power plants, and underground things, like sewer systems, and 90% of the internet infrastructure are EMP hardened.

If you are really awesome you can EMP harden your skull with a neat little hat made out of tinfoil....

[GunnyFreedom]

Jeez. The electricity would come back. EMP isn`t permanent. Most appliances would start to work again after the molecules settled and the electricity came back. Your TV wouldn`t suddenly explode, it would just loose power.

It is really only a mayor, mayor problem if you are on a plane when it happens because in that case you are going to die. (Which is why the Soviets never went for fly-by-wire.)


actually EMP *FRIES* electronics. You might be able to repair some things, but they won't come back on their own.

-t

The reality is somewhere in between these two.

A lot of consumer electronics will still work, a lot won't. Most cars with a computer control unit will not. This also depends on nearness/intensity of EMP.

The "one bomb scenario" would realistically only take down the US power grid for X time and maybe fry 1-2 cities. If you wanted to flash the lower 48 back to the 19th century you'd need about a bakers dozen.

The source of an operation that big would be obvious; and that place would become a nuclear parking lot. EMP is not magical, hardening devices against it is relatively easy, but expensive. (crap-tons of copper)

All sensitive US facilities and most sensitive US systems are EMP hardened; likewise I believe there are EMP hardened data repositories but I have no source material on that. It would not greatly affect military facilities or equipment at all, actually. A lot of hand held stuff would be toast, and the NVG's may have to go back a generation to get the ones out of storage.

All that is required to harden a device from EMP is a faraday cage. a web of copper coils of wire composing a shell/sphere X-Y-Z thick to disperse A-B-C strong EMP burst radiation; and then grounded.

You can harden a small device pretty cheap/easy. Just wrap a gob of car speaker wire around it until you have 2" thick, and attach to wire to the ground of a 3-prong outlet plug, and plug in. Now if an EMP bursts, whatever you wrapped up will be 100% safe.

Not really useful though. You don't know when an EMP is coming to toss something into the faraday cage before it hits. SO

this is why EMP hardening is so expensive. Best practice has the entire room hardened against EMP (LOTS of copper) or your equipment must be specifically engineered to contain said faraday cage and still be useful. As lots of military equipment already is.

A cheap faraday can be useful though. Toss your cellphone into it when you go to sleep, and you will have zero signal, even if you live under the tower.

PS - I have no doubt you can buy small cheap faraday cages int he form of a box online somewhere, I'll look and post

[Rael]

FYI...A tinfoil hat is a Faraday Cage =)

[GunnyFreedom]

Top of the line, $475

http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=STE2200


3.25"H x 6"W x 8.5"D
(Inside Dimensions)


Actually, these RF-block bags are super-awesome:

http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=STP1100



This prefab Faraday room looks super cool:

http://www.shieldingsystems.eu/index.php?p=Nieuws&id=159&Lang=2




These are probably better than the ones I posted up top:

http://www.lbagroup.com/technology/FaraCage.php

being faraday specific instead of just 'shielded'

[Rael]

Think about all those power transformers you see on light poles. There must be millions of them. What about when the EMP takes all those power transformers out? How many times have you seen or heard of one getting struck by lightning, knocking out power to a neighborhood, and it takes days just to replace ONE?

How are the companies that manufacture those transformers going to replace all the transformers in the country? They won't have power themselves, they would not even be able to function at normal capacity.

And of course transformers are just one of many components that will be fuxored. I imagine the power meter on the side of your house won't work. How are they even going to bill you? We have to replace millions of those too. I'm not an electricity expert but I bet there are God knows how many other important parts that will be fried.

Even if the parts were not a problem, how many power company workers are going to stay on the job when they are not getting paid and their family is starving? How are they going to GET to work when their cars are fried?

[GunnyFreedom]

FYI...A tinfoil hat is a Faraday Cage =)

lol sort of, and yes lol and I just thought the same thing:

I pictured myself walking into the store to buy a faraday cage for my office; (normally used for MRI rooms and corp/govt hush hush). Guy asks me why I want one and I laugh and say, "I need some place to take off my tinfoil hat."

[tangent4ronpaul]

More accurate would be that EMP burns out integrated circuits.

Have heard that a microwave oven, without it's power cord makes a good Faraday cage.

-t

[Rael]

More accurate would be that EMP burns out integrated circuits.

Have heard that a microwave oven, without it's power cord makes a good Faraday cage.

-t

Yep. And that's not the only extra use for a microwave:

YouTube - Gremlins (1984) Kitchen Scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zReX7OpfZXY)

[Reason]

Yes, EMP's would fck up a lot of infrastructure and cause a lot of chaos.

Anyone that doesn't already know this hasn't read enough books.

[virgil47]

A Faraday cage works great to protect personal equipment. However that equipment will be next to useless without electricity or cell towers. Also all telephone companies use solid state switches. These switching devices would be fried in the event of an emp attack. As for the military being protected against an emp attack that unfortunately is a false statement. I know this because I have spent the last 35+ years working in electronics for the military. Most of our equipment is so sensitive to static electricity that it must be shipped in special antistatic bags. By the way electronic equipment does NOT have to be energized in order for an emp pulse to destroy it. If you wish to have equipment on hand that will continue to function in the event of an emp attack you need to acquire electronics that operate with tubes as opposed to solid state devices(transistors, diodes, fets, etc.). Also if you want an automobile that will continue to function you will need to aquire an auto that has a generator instead of an alternator. Oh by the way Uriel999 your dodge dart will only run until the battery runs down as it has an alternator. One last point I'd like to make is that indeed one nuke going off at altitude just south of Chicago would completely wipe out the solid state devices in 99% of the country.

[Elwar]

I think that a lot of those who aren't worried about an EMP are forgetting the most important thing on our computers today. Porn.

No porn available conveniently on our computers would turn the US into a frenzied primitive deathfest where the new currency will be boob magazines.

[virgil47]

Elwar, perhaps you have hit upon the salvation of America. Just think a nation of pornographers. Of course all of the art work would have to be "hand" drawn. LOL.

[apropos]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Escape_From_LA.jpg

[Uriel999]

Oh by the way Uriel999 your dodge dart will only run until the battery runs down as it has an alternator.


Volkswagen Buggy it is then! Actually, I'm kinda thinking of once I get a bit more financially secure trying to find a cheap 1500 dune buggy anyways. Might be good to have in SHTF. Or it would just be fun to drive around offroad! :D

[Elwar]

One last point I'd like to make is that indeed one nuke going off at altitude just south of Chicago would completely wipe out the solid state devices in 99% of the country.

From what I read, it would take 3 EMPs across the US to hit the full lower 48.

Of course, it's not like a country is going to EMP us and then sit back and let us rebuild...they'd likely march right into Washington and take over, there would be little to be done to stop them.

Speaking of pre-emptively EMPing a country...has Mark Sanford called for destroying any other countries lately?

[virgil47]

Buggies are fun but you would still have the problem of acquiring fuel unless of course you had a large supply stored somewhere. For survival purposes an auto with doors and windows would be superior to a buggy as it would offer protection from the elements. A Baha bug would be ideal as it has the advantage of protection from the elements and has the ground clearance required for off road travel. Remember the paved surfaces will be thoroughly cluttered with inoperable autos of a more modern vintage.

[Meatwasp]

My son is not here at the monent so can't ask him, but would it effect a small home water plant?

[Meatwasp]

My son is not here at the monent so can't ask him, but would it effect a small home water plant?

we have pelton wheels and our own generator

[Meatwasp]

I guess no one can answer that.

[virgil47]

Meatwasp, sorry for the delay in answering as I was away from my computer. The generator is probably not safe as it uses diodes to rectify the voltage it creates. I'm not familiar with pelton wheels but I can check for you.

[Meatwasp]

Meatwasp, sorry for the delay in answering as I was away from my computer. The generator is probably not safe as it uses diodes to rectify the voltage it creates. I'm not familiar with pelton wheels but I can check for you.

Virg it is an old halburton SP generator. I am dunb as a door nob on electronics. LOL

[virgil47]

Meatwasp, the pelton wheel power generator produces direct current electricity. In order for this electricity to be useful for powering household appliances a D.C. to A.C. converter of some sort must be employed and therein lies the rub. Most inverters available today are solid state devices. These would no longer function after an emp attack. If you were able to utilize a multi stage vibrator (chopper) of a mechanical design you would be able to produce usable A.C. electricity (square wave as opposed to sine wave). Another alternative is to have appliances that run on D.C. and do not require solid state devices to function. I hope this answers your questions.

[Meatwasp]

Meatwasp, the pelton wheel power generator produces direct current electricity. In order for this electricity to be useful for powering household appliances a D.C. to A.C. converter of some sort must be employed and therein lies the rub. Most inverters available today are solid state devices. These would no longer function after an emp attack. If you were able to utilize a multi stage vibrator (chopper) of a mechanical design you would be able to produce usable A.C. electricity (square wave as opposed to sine wave). Another alternative is to have appliances that run on D.C. and do not require solid state devices to function. I hope this answers your questions.

We run 2 households with ours. My two sons even cast the cups in the wheel out of brass. I wish he was here now and he could explain what we have, but I certainly thank you. I was hoping we would be safe .

[andrewh817]

Just shows you how pathetic this "empire" really is when it comes down to it. To tell you the truth if everything was wiped out except the internet things might be better than they are now.

[brandon]

//

[hotbrownsauce]

HERE IS MORE INFORMATION

PDF http://nipp.org/Adobe/EMP%20Paper%20Final%20November07.pdf

1 hour video from cspan junkie where congressman Roscoe Bartlett gives a 60 minute speech on EMP.
http://cspanjunkie.org/?p=171

The two above links came from
http://smarteconomy.typepad.com/smart_economy/2008/07/electromagnetic.html

Article on EMP hardening
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2004-02/1076681126.Ph.r.html

[hotbrownsauce]

The Roscoe Bartlett speech was put together very well.

Again, here is a link.... http://cspanjunkie.org/?p=171

It seems that 95% of all EMP effected devices in the USA still have a potential to be hurt by an EMP. Only 5% is shielded enough. Even underground electronics can be reached even though it IS harder. Estimates of 90% of the USA's population would be gone within a year..... there is more in the speech.

[Uriel999]

Buggies are fun but you would still have the problem of acquiring fuel unless of course you had a large supply stored somewhere. For survival purposes an auto with doors and windows would be superior to a buggy as it would offer protection from the elements. A Baha bug would be ideal as it has the advantage of protection from the elements and has the ground clearance required for off road travel. Remember the paved surfaces will be thoroughly cluttered with inoperable autos of a more modern vintage.

I live in Florida, the elements are year round great weather except for winter which is cold! Brrrr! Freezing sucks!