Are Christianity and Libertarianism compatible?

[DeadheadForPaul]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

[ItsTime]

Sure why not?

[Liberty Star]

Yes, very much so.

But faux "christians" like these are not:

YouTube - Rapture Ready: The Christians United for Israel Tour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig) ...

[stag15]

Why not? A true Christian doesn't judge others, as that is God's job. As long as someone respects my life, liberty, and property, I will respect theirs.

[heavenlyboy34]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

Though I'm not "Christian", I am an admirer of Yeshua Al Yosif and his philosophy. :cool: I suggest you read articles geared toward Christians on LRC. Here are a few (http://www.google.com/custom?sa=Search&cof=LW%3A500%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.lewrockwell.co m%2Flewroc1a.gif%3BLH%3A93%3BAH%3Acenter%3BAWFID%3 A65dad07a461e3427%3B&domains=lewrockwell.com&q=Christian&sitesearch=lewrockwell.com). You'll get some ideas for structuring your arguments there. Good luck, and PLEASE be respectful! :)

[bucfish]

How can you be Christian and not Libertarian? That is the real question!!!

[Kludge]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism

Yes ;)

[Andrew-Austin]

I've seen it argued that Christianity is compatible with anarcho-capitalism.... Too lazy to digg up the .pdf file right now, but maybe someone else knows what I'm talking about.

[BKV]

I can predict some people will spit out

"Only those who believe in God can say that liberty is good and tyranny is bad, otherwise they have no absolute, objection standard to which they can say freedom is right, nor can they have a good reason to believe in morals. Without God, all bets are off and no opinions matter"

[jsu718]

It definitely advocates for the followers to neglect personal property for the sake of the needs of others, but it doesn't by any mean advocate allowing the government to do it for you. As an ordained minister and genuine believing Christian, I say... Compatible.

[BuddyRey]

From the lips of a self-avowed "Anarcho-Quaker", the answer to your question is absolutely yes! :)

[Working Poor]

How can you be Christian and not Libertarian? That is the real question!!!

That's what I'm talking about!!!!!

I am pretty sure Jesus said love your enemy not go out hunt them down and kill them and their families,,,

[Kludge]

From the lips of a self-avowed "Anarcho-Quaker", the answer to your question is absolutely yes! :)

Wait -- you're a Quaker?? :D

[bucfish]

That's what I'm talking about!!!!!

I am pretty sure Jesus said love your enemy not go out hunt them down and kill them and their families,,,


Where in the Bible did Christ force anyone to do anything other than route out the "money changers"?

[pcosmar]

How can you be Christian and not Libertarian? That is the real question!!!

There ya go.
Also observe Ron Paul as an example.
Chuck Baldwin makes some good points and is clear on the separation issue.

From my own perspective, I have discussed many of the issues with my Pastor and find he is in agreement with most. ( I am still working on the rest). :)

The Political "Christian" Right is another question. :(

[jsu718]

Where in the Bible did Christ force anyone to do anything other than route out the "money changers"?

You mean the FED of the day?

[idiom]

#1 Israel and Iraq are actually seperate countries.

#2 Zionism is getting a wee bit insidious. A lot of major pastors that took up Zionism ten years ago have progressed to rejecting Jesus as the messiah.

#3 Ask them if they will attend sacrifices at the Temple when it is rebuilt. People are actually gearing up to go slaughter actual cattle at an actually rebuilt Temple. Ask them why the Veil in the Temple was torn from top to bottom when Jesus died.

#4 Also be wary of theologies that deny free-will. Weird but they exist.

[He Who Pawns]

Generally speaking, libertarians are viewed as "republicans without religion," but all that really means is that libertarians do not try to impose their religious views on others through the power of government. so yes, religious people can be libertarians. the problem is, many religious people believe in using the government to spread their religious beliefs -- ie, laws against gambling, porn, prostitution and drugs.

[Slutter McGee]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

Support for Israel, as necessary for the return of Christ is common in many Christian Churches, especially the non-denominational mega-churches and a few of the more conservative denominations.

This idea is called dispensationalism. It has much to do with Christian belief concerning the new convenant. Dispensationalism argues that many of the prophesies of the Old Testament connect with the book of Revelation, among others. Basically those who believe that the New Covenant is not a abrogation of the Old Testament laws are much more likely to take a premillenial dispensationalist view of the end times, and therefore more likely to support Israel.

Without taking a non-literal interpretation of the Bible it is difficult to argue that such things such as drugs and homosexuality are consistent with Christianity. However, Libertarianism is not the belief that such things are moral, simply that assuming you are nor violating another's rights, I have no right to force my moral beliefs concerning such things on to you. Christianity is consistent with Libertarianism. The Practices of the Religious Right....not so much

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

[Liberty Star]

#4 Also be wary of theologies that deny free-will. Weird but they exist.


Generally speaking, theologies and "free will" don't mesh well together though.

"The Will of God be done" and God is often pretty certain about his dictates on how He wants humans to behave on this planet. It's not very democratic.

[bucfish]

You mean the FED of the day?

If only Jesus brought his bullwhip! Oh Well!

[jsu718]

Quick summary of the difference.

Religious Republican Neocons - These things are immoral, so they should be illegal
Religious Libertarian - These things are immoral, so I do not do them

For me personally on the Israel issue... I support Israel personally, but am against government assistance. They do have a constitutionally valid treaty/alliance with us but they can also take care of themselves, and often do better than we can.

[bucfish]

Quick summary of the difference.

Religious Republican Neocons - These things are immoral, so they should be illegal
Religious Libertarian - These things are immoral, so I do not do them
Neocons do do that. They are like children scared of the boogeyman under their bed yet they do the most immoral and heinous things. I am not perfect but at least I admit my flaws and when I am wrong. If only the neocons admitted when they are wrong.

[Conza88]

If you're to be a real Christian who follows the Bible i.e

Thou Shall not Steal

Remember - taxation is theft. ;)

[Liberty Star]

If you're to be a real Christian who follows the Bible i.e

Thou Shall not Steal

Remember - taxation is theft. ;)


:)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nvs2peDPH9Q/R-f08o9cb0I/AAAAAAAAACM/gUGJdGtpTc8/s320/ron+paul+dont+steal.desk+sign.jpg

[bucfish]

If you're to be a real Christian who follows the Bible i.e

Thou Shall not Steal

Remember - taxation is theft. ;)

The 10 commandments are so true.

There is love and marriage and it is like Christianity and liberty. You cannot have one without the other!!!

[BuddyRey]

Wait -- you're a Quaker?? :D

Yeppers!

http://tommcmahon.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/quakeroo2.gif

[Slutter McGee]

The 10 commandments are so true.

There is love and marriage and it is like Christianity and liberty. You cannot have one without the other!!!

Sure you can. I am a deist. A Libertarian. A cigarette smoking, cute girl boinking, occasionaly drug using jerk. And a Christian apologist in my spare time.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

[BKV]

There are many types of Christians, some are racists, some are very anti-gay, some are anti-Semitic, some are pro-Zionist.

But anybody who puts faith in front of reason, reality, science and humanism would probably have a problem being a libertarian.

[asimplegirl]

I always just say that as a Christian, it is my judgment that everything that happens God set into play.

If he is meant to come back, he will, no matter what we have to say about it.

BTW, BKV, I am Christian libertarian, it can work....the only way, though, is to figure out how to separate YOUR beliefs form everyone else's...to remember that our God is an understanding one, and he would not condone intolerance, hurt, and hatred towards others just because they believe differently...He would, instead, rather us to minster through our good deeds, walking the walk so to speak. Hopefully, our hearts open to His will will lead those we care for to do the right thing- in His time, and in His way, not ours.

[Working Poor]

Quick summary of the difference.

Religious Republican Neocons - These things are immoral, so they should be illegal
Religious Libertarian - These things are immoral, so I do not do them

I wonder which group trust the Lord the most?

[reduen]

Below is my reply to those that I have run into with the belief that you are talking about here. Interestingly enough, I have never gotten a response to this either. They usually just tell me "you are right, we should not be divided over such a thing as this anyway" or something similar. Some of the very blood thirsty never even respond....:)

In my opinion God does not need our help to protect Israel. Even if he did, our current foreign policy is doing just the opposite. Under Bush and Clinton both we have given more aid to Israel's enemies than we have to Israel .... How does that make any sense at all? Finally, we have borrowed more money than any nation in recorded history and we have borrowed most of it from China. Is communist China now a friend to liberty...? (When did that happen?) How can we help any other nation, including Israel if we are ourselves broke and/or our dollar crashes?

and/or

Iran's leader Ahmadinejad said that he wants to get rid of Israel as a State, and that it should not exist. He is not against all Jews, there are in fact many Jewish settlements in Iran and they get along just fine with the current leadership. Iran's beef with the U.S.A. is that we support Israel and it's existence as a state. They do not just hate us and hate our way of life...Your points about Iran hating Israel's/Jew's, and American's come from a common misunderstanding of the situation promulgated by our past leaders and mainstream media.. Now if Iran has been smuggling weapon into Iraq, which they may very well be, (we do not really know because our media and leaders lie to us so much..) it is more likely that they are doing it because they feel that we are a major threat to them over there. We should not be there in the first place.

Think about if China attacked Mexico because some Spaniards flew a few planes into some of their buildings. How would we react with Mexico being on our border...? Would we not wonder why China chose to attack Mexico instead of Spain?

To end here, I thought that the Iraqi people were oppressed also but I have come to understand that nothing could be farther from the truth. They may in fact enjoy more freedoms than us soon. (If not already...) Above all, we should not be promoting other Democracies around the world. Our founders hated Democracies with a passion and that is why they fought to form an Constitutional Republic for us here...

[DeadheadForPaul]

Are there any Bible verses about JUST WAR?

I'm not a pacifist, but I support DEFENSIVE wars. Does the bible say anything about how to conduct a war? I can't point to anything to support the Just War theory. Need verses that do not support offensive wars...

much thanks

[Njon]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

I'm technically a paleoconservative, but hopefully I can be of help. Sadly, most professing Christian in the United States don't understand the Biblical purpose of civil government. God has ordained civil governments to protect natural rights, not to establish a theocracy. Christ will establish a theocracy upon His return, but that is not our job to do via civil government. As Christians, our job is to promote the glory of God. In civil government, we must pursue the God-ordained purpose of civil government, i.e., protecting natural rights.

You also need to know that there are more schools of eschatological (end times) thought than simply premillennialism. A lot of evangelical Protestants don't believe in a rapture, a literal 7 year tribulation, etc. (check out Dr. R.C. Sproul for an example). There are also views like postmillennialism and amillennialism.

The New Testament does not say that Christians must unconditionally support the physical nation of Israel. God's ultimate plan has always revolved around His Church of Jew and Gentile alike; the nation of Israel was typographical for the Church.

YouTube - Gary DeMar - Are there one people of God or two? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITyptJ9aAXs)

And why is it that so many professing Christians are a-okay with endless foreign wars? How can someone consider themselves pro-life if they are supportive of slaughtering scores of civilians around the world as collateral damage in the expansion and maintenance of our global empire?

[DeadheadForPaul]

"Submission to the Authorities
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."


This is kind of concerning...

[bucfish]

Sure you can. I am a deist. A Libertarian. A cigarette smoking, cute girl boinking, occasionaly drug using jerk. And a Christian apologist in my spare time.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee


Any person that is a Christian is not perfect. The point is they try to do good after all if you are a Christian means you follow the teachings of Christ. And any Christian that thinks they are perfect is way off. Christ preached peace and volunteerism. Therefore any True Christian should be a Libertarian in the modern sense of the word.

[BKV]

I always just say that as a Christian, it is my judgment that everything that happens God set into play.


So you don't believe in free will and responsibility? You believe God is responsible for bad things happening to good people?




If he is meant to come back, he will, no matter what we have to say about it.


Agree, nor will it matter what we do, right?




BTW, BKV, I am Christian libertarian, it can work....the only way, though, is to figure out how to separate YOUR beliefs form everyone else's...to remember that our God is an understanding one, and he would not condone intolerance, hurt, and hatred towards others just because they believe differently


where do you draw the line between respecting faiths, or respecting a person's choice to obey laws and norms?



...He would, instead, rather us to minster through our good deeds, walking the walk so to speak. Hopefully, our hearts open to His will will lead those we care for to do the right thing- in His time, and in His way, not ours.

there is no "hopefully" if God set everything into play.

[Slutter McGee]

There are many types of Christians, some are racists, some are very anti-gay, some are anti-Semitic, some are pro-Zionist.

But anybody who puts faith in front of reason, reality, science and humanism would probably have a problem being a libertarian.

BKV. Anybody who puts faith in front of reason might have a problem with objectivisim, not libertarianism. There is a big difference.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

[heavenlyboy34]

"Submission to the Authorities
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."


This is kind of concerning...

Chuck Baldwin and others have written on this quite a bit. :D I'll dig up some articles for you sometime.

[Theocrat]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

You tell them that the Church is the New Israel, not a particular race of people inhabited in a land in the Middle East. In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, circumcised nor uncircumcised, but we are all one in Him (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11). The land of Israel today does not worship God through Christ, so how can they be His special people? Jesus doesn't have two brides, the Christian Church and the land of Israel. He only has one, and it is the Bride which has the indwelling of His Spirit. In Revelation, God did away with the Old Testament rituals of entry towards God by destroying the temple (as happened in 70 A.D. in Jerusalem).

If America is supposed to exist to support the nation of Israel, then what were we doing before Israel became a nation in 1948? The modern teaching of eschatology in American churches is false, and we all have seen its errors in our foreign policy and end-times hysteria. Israel is not the "holy land" for Christians. In Christ, His Church will inherit the entire earth (Matthew 5:5). Therefore, we live to make the world a better place for God's glory before Christ returns, and He promises He will be with us all the way (Matthew 28:19, 20). We take dominion from the bottom-up by serving others in love and truth, not by force of arms and intimidation, as is the doctrine of neoconservative politics. That is what your Christian friends need to understand.

[reduen]

Are there any Bible verses about JUST WAR?

I'm not a pacifist, but I support DEFENSIVE wars. Does the bible say anything about how to conduct a war? I can't point to anything to support the Just War theory. Need verses that do not support offensive wars...

much thanks

Not one time in the New Testament did Jesus ever say that we could do anything but love our enemies.... Study your scripture very hard my brother we as Christians should follow the red letter to the best of our abilities.

Keep in mind that as Christians, we are not Jews and we are not Israelites. We are grafted in to the vine but never burdened with the "Mosaic" law. As Christian we are held to a higher standard because the spirit of Christ dwells with us.

Ex: Thou shalt not commit adultery was for the Jews = for us, if we even look upon another with lust we are doing wrong.... In this case the "law of Moses" is not only kept but even a higher standard is held... Do you see what I am saying?

Again, a Christian should be a follower of Christ Jesus and His teachings…. :)

[Njon]

"Submission to the Authorities
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."


This is kind of concerning...


Think about Romans 13 in the context of the United States. We don't have a king. Our 'king' is the U.S. Constitution established by our forefathers. The Constitution is supreme in this country, and every government official swears an oath to support it. So when they do something unconstitutional, they are the ones disobeying God because they are violating their covenant with the people.

In order for a law or command of government to morally require obedience from us, it must be:

1. Consistent with all higher-ranking laws. i.e, state laws must be compliant with the state and federal constitutions, and federal laws must be compliant with the federal Constitution.

2. Inherently just and be a just/equitable application of that law in the given situation. (Augustine once said that unjust law is no law at all)

3. Within the authority that God has delegated to civil government, which is to protect natural rights.


If a law/policy of government passes all three categories, you are morally obligated before God to obey it. Apart from all three, you are not morally obligated to obey it.

Listen to the interview at http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/Interview_Dixon.html and read http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2009/cbarchive_20090227.html

Also watch all four of these videos in order (numeric order is not listed order; go by numberic order in the titles): http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=transformnotconform&view=videos

[reduen]

You tell them that the Church is the New Israel, not a particular race of people inhabited in a land in the Middle East. In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, circumcised nor uncircumcised, but we are all one in Him (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11). The land of Israel today does not worship God through Christ, so how can they be His special people? Jesus doesn't have two brides, the Christian Church and the land of Israel. He only has one, and it is the Bride which has the indwelling of His Spirit. In Revelation, God did away with the Old Testament rituals of entry towards God by destroying the temple (as happened in 70 A.D. in Jerusalem).

If America is supposed to exist to support the nation of Israel, then what were we doing before Israel became a nation in 1948? The modern teaching of eschatology in American churches is false, and we all have seen its errors in our foreign policy and end-times hysteria. Israel is not the "holy land" for Christians. In Christ, His Church will inherit the entire earth (Matthew 5:5). Therefore, we live to make the world a better place for God's glory before Christ returns, and He promises He will be with us all the way (Matthew 28:19, 20). We take dominion from the bottom-up by serving others in love and truth, not by force of arms and intimidation, as is the doctrine of neoconservative politics. That is what your Christian friends need to understand.


God Bless you my brother....! :)

[DeadheadForPaul]

Wow thanks for all the posts so far.

I am AMAZED at the response from Christians and non-Christians alike

really great posts

thought my thread would fall off the earth :D

[bucfish]

Are there any Bible verses about JUST WAR?

I'm not a pacifist, but I support DEFENSIVE wars. Does the bible say anything about how to conduct a war? I can't point to anything to support the Just War theory. Need verses that do not support offensive wars...

much thanks


Augustines "Just War Theory"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war

[TonySutton]

People who believe they must perform certain actions for Jesus to return certainly can not be Christians. If God is truly all powerful their actions mean nothing. Things will happen according to God's plan not based on some neocon's or any other Christian's actions.

[Jeremy]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/yates/yates87.html

[DeadheadForPaul]

Not one time in the New Testament did Jesus ever say that we could do anything but love our enemies.... Study your scripture very hard my brother we as Christians should follow the red letter to the best of our abilities.

Keep in mind that as Christians, we are not Jews and we are not Israelites. We are grafted in to the vine but never burdened with the "Mosaic" law. As Christian we are held to a higher standard because the spirit of Christ dwells with us.

Ex: Thou shalt not commit adultery was for the Jews = for us, if we even look upon another with lust we are doing wrong.... In this case the "law of Moses" is not only kept but even a higher standard is held... Do you see what I am saying?

Again, a Christian should be a follower of Christ Jesus and His teachings…. :)

Quick question: I agree with you but if so, why do Christians follow the 10 Commandments

[TER]

You tell them that the Church is the New Israel, not a particular race of people inhabited in a land in the Middle East. In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, circumcised nor uncircumcised, but we are all one in Him (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11). The land of Israel today does not worship God through Christ, so how can they be His special people? Jesus doesn't have two brides, the Christian Church and the land of Israel. He only has one, and it is the Bride which has the indwelling of His Spirit. In Revelation, God did away with the Old Testament rituals of entry towards God by destroying the temple (as happened in 70 A.D. in Jerusalem).

If America is supposed to exist to support the nation of Israel, then what were we doing before Israel became a nation in 1948? The modern teaching of eschatology in American churches is false, and we all have seen its errors in our foreign policy and end-times hysteria. Israel is not the "holy land" for Christians. In Christ, His Church will inherit the entire earth (Matthew 5:5). Therefore, we live to make the world a better place for God's glory before Christ returns, and He promises He will be with us all the way (Matthew 28:19, 20). We take dominion from the bottom-up by serving others in love and truth, not by force of arms and intimidation, as is the doctrine of neoconservative politics. That is what your Christian friends need to understand.


Excellent post full of wisdom and truth! Thank you for this!

[reduen]

Wow thanks for all the posts so far.

I am AMAZED at the response from Christians and non-Christians alike

really great posts

thought my thread would fall off the earth :D

Stand strong my new brother! Your faith will certainly be tried but when you are at a loss to defend your new faith, do not grow weary but find a fellow Christian that you respect and seek council. If you stand in your faith, you are going to experience so much more in this life now!

I am excited for you, can you tell? :)

[reduen]

Quick question: I agree with you but if so, why do Christians follow the 10 Commandments

They have been lead to believe that way... Most of them just sit in a pew and listen to what they are fed. This is kinda like those who listen to the MSM to get their news....

[euphemia]

I would say that it's good for a Christian to be liberty minded. Christ died to set us free from the slavery of sin and death. Patriots died to set us free from the tyranny of others. Because you already know how to apply the objective truth of the Constitution, you will be able to see how the Biblical model of freedom makes all the pieces of the puzzle come together.

[pcosmar]

"Submission to the Authorities
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."


This is kind of concerning...

Chuck Baldwin has good take on it.
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20070810.html

[bucfish]

Quick question: I agree with you but if so, why do Christians follow the 10 Commandments

Do you feel stealing is right?

Do you feel sleeping with your friends wife is an act of self preservation?

Should killing be a good thing?

So are the 10 commandments or the bill of rights(based on the ten commandments be ignored, Thou shall not, Congress shall not) irrelevant? I think not but rather they are completely relevant. Our lives are not granted at the permission of any entity made up by man such as the government but rather granted by the mere birth of us unto this world and therefore gauranteed to us by our creator.

[A. Havnes]

The only quotes Christians can use to back Israel unconditionally are in the Old Testament when God tells Abraham that he will make him a great nation and curse those who stand against it and bless those who do not. Somehow, this all got turned into, "We must support Israel 100% or be cursed by God!" I don't think God intends us to support a nation, even Isreal, when it's in the wrong.

Moreover, as Ron Paul once said in the debates, we also fund Israel's enemies as well, which is about as far from helping Israel as we can get! Libertarianism and non-intervention are the way to go.

As far as the Iraq War goes, most Christians would consider themselves to be conservative. The mean of conservative suddenly changed when Bush took office, so anything he does is automatically the true, conservative, and Godly (since we all know that Bush tried to pander to us Christians, kind of like Huckabee).

[Njon]

Are there any Bible verses about JUST WAR?

I'm not a pacifist, but I support DEFENSIVE wars. Does the bible say anything about how to conduct a war? I can't point to anything to support the Just War theory. Need verses that do not support offensive wars...

much thanks


Off the top of my head I can't think of any that oppose offensive wars, but I do think we can at least say that the fact God sent Old Testament Israel into offensive wars --- which He did do --- is not proof that governments today can justly conduct offensive wars. Old Testament Israel was a theocracy directly governed by God (though it had leaders, there were also prophets through whom God conveyed messages, and the leaders were commanded to govern by specific covenant laws of God as laid out in the Pentateuch/Torah), unlike any other civil government/nation in history; they were being used as His instrument when they went to offensive war. God does not directly command civil governments today in the sense that He did for Old Testament Israel; the Bible is our complete revelation and there are no true prophets alive today giving us inspired extra-Biblical revelation. The Bible alone is the Word of God. And as I pointed out earlier, the nation of Old Testament Israel was a typography of the Church, and the Church is not a civil government.

God has given the same duty to all civil governments regardless of who is leading them, and that is to protect natural rights; Romans 13 essentially tells us as much.

[reduen]

Do you feel stealing is right?

Do you feel sleeping with your friends wife is an act of self preservation?

Should killing be a good thing?

So are the 10 commandments or the bill of rights(based on the ten commandments be ignored, Thou shall not, Congress shall not) irrelevant? I think not but rather they are completely relevant. Our lives are not granted at the permission of any entity made up by man such as the government but rather granted by the mere birth of us unto this world and therefore gauranteed to us by our creator.


I think you may misunderstand what I was telling him.

I mean that as Christians we do more than keep The Ten Commandments. We do that and more, we have a more perfect covenant with God... :)

They are very relevant but they are milk to me instead of meat…

[BKV]

Do you feel stealing is right?


What I feel does not matter if there's a gun to my head.



Do you feel sleeping with your friends wife is an act of self preservation?


maybe not, nor is dying my hair and wearing blue.



Should killing be a good thing?


Under some conditions, YES.



So are the 10 commandments or the bill of rights(based on the ten commandments be ignored, Thou shall not, Congress shall not) irrelevant?


Yes, they're just paper unless we recognize it to be otherwise and enforce what we believe as business.



I think not but rather they are completely relevant.


How relevant? That lying and killing are equivalent in crime and punishment?



Our lives are not granted at the permission of any entity made up by man such as the government but rather granted by the mere birth of us unto this world and therefore gauranteed to us by our creator.

What makes you so sure 10 comm, bible, bill of rights are not made by man?

Can we check with God to make sure he gave you these rights? Or can we ask God to enforce these guarantees himself?

[TER]

In honor of 'Earth' Day:



http://www.monasterygreetings.com/productimages/item1983_creationstars_icon.jpghttp://www.monasterygreetings.com/productimages/item1911_animalkingdom_icon.jpg

[BKV]

The only quotes Christians can use to back Israel unconditionally are in the Old Testament when God tells Abraham that he will make him a great nation and curse those who stand against it and bless those who do not. Somehow, this all got turned into, "We must support Israel 100% or be cursed by God!" I don't think God intends us to support a nation, even Isreal, when it's in the wrong.

Moreover, as Ron Paul once said in the debates, we also fund Israel's enemies as well, which is about as far from helping Israel as we can get! Libertarianism and non-intervention are the way to go.

As far as the Iraq War goes, most Christians would consider themselves to be conservative. The mean of conservative suddenly changed when Bush took office, so anything he does is automatically the true, conservative, and Godly (since we all know that Bush tried to pander to us Christians, kind of like Huckabee).


Of course most Christians refuse to think of what "Israel" means in the Biblical context (descendants of Yakob), this is the same problem when Christians refuse to examine the historicity of their Bible (or ask God to explain it to them), which means they listen to whatever they want as comfortable interpretations, or worse yet, make their own.

Just as Fed Res is Federal in name only, the State of Israel is Israel in name only (same with Holy Roman Empire).

[reduen]

Off the top of my head I can't think of any that oppose offensive wars, but I do think we can at least say that the fact God sent Old Testament Israel into offensive wars --- which He did do --- is not proof that governments today can justly conduct offensive wars. Old Testament Israel was a theocracy directly governed by God (though it had leaders, there were also prophets through whom God conveyed messages, and the leaders were commanded to govern by specific covenant laws of God as laid out in the Pentateuch/Torah), unlike any other civil government/nation in history; they were being used as His instrument when they went to offensive war. God does not directly command civil governments today in the sense that He did for Old Testament Israel; the Bible is our complete revelation and there are no true prophets alive today giving us inspired extra-Biblical revelation. The Bible alone is the Word of God. As I pointed out earlier, the nation of Old Testament Israel was a typography of the Church, and the Church is not a civil government.

God has given the same duty to all civil governments regardless of who is leading them, and that is to protect natural rights; Romans 13 essentially tells us as much.

Pretty well spoken here...

I would just like to add that the wars of the old testament were fought by hand and there was no innocent blood spilled. This means that only those directly commanded to be killed were killed. This is most certainly not the case in todays wars...:(

[TER]

The only quotes Christians can use to back Israel unconditionally are in the Old Testament when God tells Abraham that he will make him a great nation and curse those who stand against it and bless those who do not.

In light of the coming of Christ, the 'great nation' which would be as numerous as the stars refers to the Church (the most populous faith in the world)

[reduen]

What I feel does not matter if there's a gun to my head.



maybe not, nor is dying my hair and wearing blue.



Under some conditions, YES.



Yes, they're just paper unless we recognize it to be otherwise and enforce what we believe as business.



How relevant? That lying and killing are equivalent in crime and punishment?



What makes you so sure 10 comm, bible, bill of rights are not made by man?

Can we check with God to make sure he gave you these rights? Or can we ask God to enforce these guarantees himself?

Could you hash out your beef with the existence of God in another thread? You are not helping Deadhead with these kinds of posts... Start a new one...

[BKV]

Could you hash out your beef with the existence of God in another thread? You are not helping Deadhead with these kinds of posts... Start a new one...

I'm not trying to help anybody.

It's not my beef with existence of God, it's my beef with people who make claims that they probably can't back up or defend (and bad arguments that shouldn't be used), especially if they're not willing to check with questions.

Nothing personal, but what I find necessary to say will be said.

[BKV]

In light of the coming of Christ, the 'great nation' which would be as numerous as the stars refers to the Church (the most populous faith in the world)

why would you oppose democracy or favor any nationalism if you believe your nation is God's church?

[Njon]

why would you oppose democracy or favor any nationalism if you believe your nation is God's church?


It's not that a nation is the Church; the Church is a 'nation' of sorts, though not civil. It is a spiritual community, the collective Body and Bride of Christ, and the family of God. Civil government is a separate matter.

[euphemia]

If one looks at the ways in which the US government hinders the desired objectives in so many areas, is it possible that we are hampering Israel rather than helping? God rules in the affairs of men and Israel is the apple of His eye, so maybe it's a little arrogant to suggest He "needs" the United States to do anything. Certainly from a diplomatic point of view we should be the ally of Israel, but what does God really want that to look like?

[TER]

why would you oppose democracy or favor any nationalism if you believe your nation is God's church?

Christians are are firstly and lastly sojourners in this world. 'Nation' is a wordly term. Our kingdom is not of this world.

[BKV]

Christians are are firstly and lastly sojourners in this world. 'Nation' is a wordly term. Our kingdom is not of this world.

So even though I just used that word I don't really mean it.

[BKV]

It's not that a nation is the Church; the Church is a 'nation' of sorts, though not civil. It is a spiritual community, the collective Body and Bride of Christ, and the family of God. Civil government is a separate matter.

simple question, do you follow God's law before you follow the law of the United States?

Yes, no , not always?

[TER]

So even though I just used that word I don't really mean it.

Good night BKV. I read some beautiful and Spirit-filled word in this thread, but seeing it sadly become contentious, I'm off to pray and then rest until tomorrow.

[reduen]

I'm not trying to help anybody.

It's not my beef with existence of God, it's my beef with people who make claims that they probably can't back up or defend (and bad arguments that shouldn't be used), especially if they're not willing to check with questions.

Nothing personal, but what I find necessary to say will be said.

If you are not trying to help anybody then why do you post here? There are many places you could go to do what you are doing...

[Njon]

simple question, do you follow God's law before you follow the law of the United States?

Yes, no , not always?


All Christians still have sin in their lives, so I can't claim to always perfectly follow God's law, but yes: God's law does trump man's law in authority. God is the sovereign Ruler of the universe; His will is always superior to what any man says. God ordained civil government and He is therefore superior to it. No one is obligated to obey an unjust/immoral law.

[reduen]

Good night BKV. I read some beautiful and Spirit-filled word in this thread, but seeing it sadly become contentious, I'm off to pray and then rest until tomorrow.

I agree, hope you got information that was helpful to you Deadhead...

God Bless...! :)

[BKV]

All Christians still have sin in their lives, so I can't claim to always perfectly follow God's law, but yes: God's law does trump man's law in authority. God is the sovereign ruler of the universe; His will is always superior to what any man says. God ordained civil government and is therefore superior to it. No one is obligated to obey an unjust/immoral law.

So whatever law you're capable of obeying you do it.

Whatever law you dislike, it's injust and immortal.

Whatever you're not capable of, is excused with sin.

Sound right?

Is there a law you can name in US that you proudly disobey in the name of God?

[Njon]

So whatever law you're capable of obeying you do it.

Whatever law you dislike, it's injust and immortal.

Whatever you're not capable of, is excused with sin.

Sound right?

Is there a law you can name in US that you proudly disobey in the name of God?


No, it doesn't sound right; it sounds like you're an antagonistic troll who doesn't care about truth, but only cares about justifying his unbelief. I'm with the others; there's no reason to keep going on with this. Farewell.

[BKV]

No, it doesn't sound right; it sounds like you're an antagonistic troll who doesn't care about truth, but only cares about justifying his unbelief. I'm with the others; there's no reason to keep going on with this. Farewell.

I don't need to justify my unbelief, I just wanted to know how people like you believe.

You say you put God's law in front of man's law, yet you don't know how to answer an example of you actually doing it.

I don't care about what you believe, but it's sad you can answer a question to show your consistency.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Oh this is a great thread! I am a Christian Libertarian..and I struggle with morality (or the lack thereof) and my faith. I have been a Christian without a church and I finally googled Christians against zionism..and I found the answer just last night..I have been excited ever since. I made a thread about it..but I will post this link here. This is how dispensationalism came to be..it is only 179 years old and it is due to a crook named Schofield ..I will post this link so you can watch the documentary. It will answer your questions about Christian zionism...and how it took over the churches. It was an agenda. There ARE churches that are not zionist...Church of Christ is one of them. Matter of fact, I attended a Church of Christ tonight ..first time I have been to church in over a year...and I have agonized over it. If you pray hard enough and long enough eventually God will lead you where you need to be. Please visit this website and watch this video..Tones

http://whtt.org/show/

[malkusm]

http://libertarianchristians.com/

[asimplegirl]

I will answer your question, BKV, as you claim to truly be looking for an answer.

I will always follow God's law before man's law, but the bible tells us that mans law should be followed, also, if the two do not conflict.

There are no laws in the US that I can think of right of hand at this moment that conflict, but say if we were in China:

Supposedly, they force you to abort any second child you may be pregnant with? Or is that just a rumor?

Anyway.. if it were true, that would be something that I could not follow if I were a citizen, and also a Christian, as God tells us not to murder, it it is my interpretation that abortion is murder....also, I believe that birth control is an abortificant, which equals murder,a lso, in my eyes.

In that situation, I would do what God has led my heart to believe, and take whatever punishments I had to take if I could not get out of that craphole.

(I do not want this to turn into an abortion thing...but was merely using it as an example. Though I believe it to be wrong, I see no reason to make a law for it, placing some kind of unrealistic cap on free will, and not leaving room for interpretation..not everyone is led the same as I. )

I hope that thins clears it up for you. If not, I hope you can find your answers soon.

[Freedom 4 all]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism

Yes ;)

Leo Tolstoy is fucking awesome. Read The Kingdom of God is Within yOu.

[Njon]

I don't need to justify my unbelief, I just wanted to know how people like you believe.

You say you put God's law in front of man's law, yet you don't know how to answer an example of you actually doing it.

I don't care about what you believe, but it's sad you can answer a question to show your consistency.


I can answer the question and I could give you plenty of examples. But you don't seem to be genuinely interested in discussion; based on your snarky attitude, you seem interested in stirring up controversy. So why should I waste my time if that is the case?

[TurtleBurger]

Dispensationalist Christianity and Libertarianism are completely incompatible. That is because the dispensationalists are the Wahabi jihadists of Christianity. If the church you are attending is preaching dispensationalism, you may want to consider another church.
If you read Jesus' Sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7) you will find a lot of proto-libertarian ideas there. I'm a libertarian precisely because I am a Christian; no other political philosophy that I've found so completely matches orthodox scriptural Christianity as libertarianism does.

[ChaosControl]

Of course they are. Why wouldn't they be?
You can encourage others not to "sin", yet still not support the government using force to prevent such. There is a thing called free will, we're supposed to make these decisions for ourselves. If we were meant to ban all these things, why have free will anyway?

If anything I'd say authoritarianism is anti-Christian. Of course I'm not Christian so what do I know.

[DeadheadForPaul]

I agree, hope you got information that was helpful to you Deadhead...

God Bless...! :)

I did and appreciate you all

[BKV]

I can answer the question and I could give you plenty of examples. But you don't seem to be genuinely interested in discussion; based on your snarky attitude, you seem interested in stirring up controversy. So why should I waste my time if that is the case?

I apologize for my attitude.

But I AM genuinely interested in your answer.

[nate895]

The Bible is a libertarian manifesto with a religious slant.

[Vessol]

Why wouldn't any religion be compatible with Libertarianism?

And no :rolleyes: for converting. I hope that you find happiness in your new faith. I'm an agnostic myself and don't see why people get on people for being religious, it's called freedom of religion.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Jesus liberated us from the law...He was a liberty spirit. tones

[Old Ducker]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

A lot of conservative christians are religious whackjobs. They stand opposed to God himself by seeking to destroy rights and empower the government to impose their social conventions and prejudices. They have been manipulated and suckered by the Zionist lobbies.

It is against libertarian principles to seize assets from americans to bequeath to foreign governments. It is against libertarian principles to view the State of Israel as different than any other foreign government.

Christianity is NOT incompatible with libertarianism. From where do you derive your rights, government? NO, God!

A lot of christians are just full of shit and if Jesus really IS god, they'll find that out in a few decades...

[asimplegirl]

I apologize for my attitude.

But I AM genuinely interested in your answer.

I answered your question to the best of my abilities, but don't know if you saw it...for some reason, by the time it posted it had like 4 other posts under it.

[tonesforjonesbones]

Yes I'm sure that there are many christian libertarians...tones

[Njon]

I apologize for my attitude.

Accepted. Thank you.


But I AM genuinely interested in your answer.


First off, Christians should never excuse their sin. To do so is sin in and of itself. And yes, I have been guilty of that.

I don't decide what laws to obey and what not based on what I 'like.' My likes and dislikes do not define morality. At http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2091063&postcount=42 I explained how I determine what obligates obedience. In general, the criteria involves Constitutionality (in the United States), justness and equity, and the God-ordained purpose of government. Here are some examples:


1. A federal gun control law. Okay, it's unconstitutional, therefore I am not morally required to obey because the Constitution trumps federal law. I might obey it to avoid an unjust prosecution, but I am not morally required before God to obey it. Just like I am not required to obey federal criminal laws that are not crimes explicitly enumerated in the Constitution, because the 10th amendment prohibits the legality of such federal criminal statutes. Most federal laws are clearly unconstitutional, and those that are warrant no obedience from anyone.

2. (Leading in from 1) And even if there was no 2nd amendment, my right to bear arms is given to me by God, and government can't just choose to infringe on that (unless I am a convicted violent criminal who uses his right to deprive others of their rights), so I might also be able to disobey federal gun control laws --- and state/local gun control laws --- on a moral principle.

3. A moral example from the past: fugitive slave law. It may have been legal, but because it is immoral I would not obey.

4. And an example of equity. Speed limits, for example, are Constitutional so long as they are set by state/local government under the 10th amendment. They are just laws because they are there to protect people. But let's say I have a friend in my car who is dying and I need to race them to the hospital. The speed limits laws are good, but to obey them in this case would not be a good application of those laws. I would be justified in speeding, running some stop signs, etc. in order to rush to the hospital so my friend could receive treatment (though of course, with caution so as to not harm others while driving).

5. The purpose of government. God has not given government the authority to dictate how a parent raises their child, therefore laws about how you must educate your children require no moral obedience.


Those are just a few examples that cover the general spectrum. Christians ought to desire to be able to live peacefully with their government without disobeying, but that generally requires a government that respects its limits as set by government's covenant with the people (in our case, the Constitution), the principles of justice and equity, and government's God-ordained purpose.

The government in the United States today is so rogue, so criminal, the potential for civil disobedience tragically abounds. I don't like disobeying government; I'd much rather have a government that respected the Constitution, justice and equity, and its God-ordained purpose. But when it doesn't, we are not under obligation to obey.

[robert9712000]

What i think is sad is the average non beliver sees what Bush did and his profesion of faith and other neocons and then assumes that, thats what christianity belives (ie:premptive war,always back isreal blindly).They dont realise that there just using the guise of calling themselves christian to hide behind so they can give the illusion they prescribe to a moral reasoning when in actuallity there allegiance isnt to God but to wealth and power.Some christians even get caught up in it and confuse a false feel good patriotism as some kind of morality.

The same i think is true for the leaders of isreal.I think the jews are Gods chosen people,but i think even the jews have been hijacked by people who misrepresent themselves as jews(ie:zionists) whos goal isnt to follow God but to try to use the plight of the jews to there advantage to further there agenda

[Slutter McGee]

Dispensationalist Christianity and Libertarianism are completely incompatible. That is because the dispensationalists are the Wahabi jihadists of Christianity. If the church you are attending is preaching dispensationalism, you may want to consider another church.
If you read Jesus' Sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7) you will find a lot of proto-libertarian ideas there. I'm a libertarian precisely because I am a Christian; no other political philosophy that I've found so completely matches orthodox scriptural Christianity as libertarianism does.


Exactly. Spot On. Dispensationalism has been around since Darby, but lately it seems to be taking a on new life in a lot of congregations.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

[Don't Tread on Mike]

I am living proof of one.

[Bman]

The only outstanding probelm with most christians to truly be libertarian is abortion.

Here's a good article on it.

http://harrybrowne.org/articles/Abortion.htm

[Pennsylvania]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism

Yes ;)

I'll raise you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

[asimplegirl]

Well, I don't agree with abortion, and I am libertarian.

I just don't see anybody else doing it as my business. The only person I need to be all in the business of is me. Right?

[Njon]

The only outstanding probelm with most christians to truly be libertarian is abortion.


Not really, because a libertarian should believe that government must protect peoples' natural rights, and that's what outlawing abortion does: protects the life of unborn babies.

[Theocrat]

The only outstanding probelm with most christians to truly be libertarian is abortion.

Here's a good article on it.

http://harrybrowne.org/articles/Abortion.htm

Have you ever heard of "Libertarians for Life" (http://www.libertariansforlife.org/)?

[Bman]

Have you ever heard of "Libertarians for Life" (http://www.libertariansforlife.org/)?

Never said libertarians couldn't be for life. It depends on whether or not you think Government should be involved at all with the process. So if you go around advocating politicains to be either pro-life or pro-abortion you are not being very libertarian. As a matter of fact you are being opposite.

[Bman]

Not really, because a libertarian should believe that government must protect peoples' natural rights, and that's what outlawing abortion does: protects the life of unborn babies.

But it also has to protect the life of the woman carrying the baby. Someones going to lose. Should the government be making that decision?

If you think it should that is not a libertarian stance at all.

[Njon]

But it also has to protect the life of the woman carrying the baby. Someones going to lose. Should the government be making that decision?

If you think it should that is not a libertarian stance at all.


Yes, government should be making that decision. A baby's right to not be killed trumps a woman's desire to not want a baby. The gravity of the two consequences are not even comparable.

[asimplegirl]

I don't think it is the government's business...I think it is wrong, but not their business.

[Bman]

I don't think it is the government's business...I think it is wrong, but not their business.

Then I think you've anwered the question. A christian can be a libertarian. Being libertarian has nothing to do with your own beliefs. It has to do with whether or not you will use government to force your beliefs on others.

[Bman]

Yes, government should be making that decision. A baby's right to not be killed trumps a woman's desire to not want a baby. The gravity of the two consequences are not even comparable.

What makes you the authority on the subject? Many, as a matter of fact the majority in this country would disagree.

[Theocrat]

Never said libertarians couldn't be for life. It depends on whether or not you think Government should be involved at all with the process. So if you go around advocating politicains to be either pro-life or pro-abortion you are not being very libertarian. As a matter of fact you are being opposite.

According to Congressman Paul (http://www.l4l.org/library/bepro-rp.html), being pro-life is essential to liberty. I agree with him. The protection of life in the womb is not peripheral to libertarianism. Those who would support a woman's choice to terminate her baby in the womb are the ones who are inconsistent with the principles of libertarianism.

[asimplegirl]

Then I think you've anwered the question. A christian can be a libertarian. Being libertarian has nothing to do with your own beliefs. It has to do with whether or not you will use government to force your beliefs on others.

Thanks. Glad to answer the question.

[DeadheadForPaul]

Even when I was pro-choice (and non-Christian), I never understood how someone who viewed abortion as murder could possibly want abortions to be legal...

If you think abortion is murder but believe women should be allowed to choose...why do you support laws against regular murder?

[Bman]

According to Congressman Paul (http://www.l4l.org/library/bepro-rp.html), being pro-life is essential to liberty. I agree with him. The protection of life in the womb is not peripheral to libertarianism. Those who would support a woman's choice to terminate her baby in the womb are the ones who are inconsistent with the principles of libertarianism.

That christian line is the biggest bunch of horse crap ever.

Here's a little insight what us non-chrsitians think of that line.

YouTube - George Carlin - Back In Town Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_0MVOUytU)

I dare you to find an actual libertarian work that says what you've said.

[Theocrat]

That christian line is the biggest bunch of horse crap ever.

Here's a little insight what us non-chrsitians think of that line.

YouTube - George Carlin - Back In Town Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX_0MVOUytU)

I dare you to find an actual libertarian work that says what you've said.

First of all, I really don't care what George Carlin has to say about the issue. He is in no position to give an authoritative critique of whether life in the womb should be protected or not, being the crass humanist he was. Abortion is murder, whether Carlin or any other non-Christian agrees with it or not.

Second of all, Dr. Paul discusses this entire subject of the correlation between abortion and libertarian philosophy in his book Abortion and Liberty (http://files.meetup.com/504095/Ron%20Paul-Abortion%20and%20Liberty.pdf). If you want a libertarian work that lays out what I've said, I suggest you start there.

[Bman]

First of all, I really don't care what George Carlin has to say about the issue. He is in no position to give an authoritative critique of whether life in the womb should be protected or not,

Neither do you.



Second of all, Dr. Paul discusses this entire subject of the correlation between abortion and libertarian philosophy in his book Abortion and Liberty (http://files.meetup.com/504095/Ron%20Paul-Abortion%20and%20Liberty.pdf). If you want a libertarian work that lays out what I've said, I suggest you start there.

And Dr. Pauls ideas on abortion are not Libertarian if he supports government control of it.

[Bman]

Even when I was pro-choice (and non-Christian), I never understood how someone who viewed abortion as murder could possibly want abortions to be legal...

If you think abortion is murder but believe women should be allowed to choose...why do you support laws against regular murder?

Well simply put. If a fetus removed from a womb could survive and it was killed that would be different. You can't force the woman to have something they do not want. Plus having a baby will not have no effect physically on the woman. It's not my choice, and it certainly is not the governments.

[BlackTerrel]

Christians are about 80% of the US population so you better be compatible with Christianity or you might as well give up.

And I'm not just saying that because I'm Baptist.

[BlackTerrel]

Support for Israel, as necessary for the return of Christ is common in many Christian Churches, especially the non-denominational mega-churches and a few of the more conservative denominations.

This idea is called dispensationalism. It has much to do with Christian belief concerning the new convenant. Dispensationalism argues that many of the prophesies of the Old Testament connect with the book of Revelation, among others. Basically those who believe that the New Covenant is not a abrogation of the Old Testament laws are much more likely to take a premillenial dispensationalist view of the end times, and therefore more likely to support Israel.

If you ask me, a lot of people on this forum pay way too much attention to Israel. There is a lot more talk about Israel on this forum than among the Christians I know.

[Njon]

What makes you the authority on the subject? Many, as a matter of fact the majority in this country would disagree.


Sorry; this isn't a democracy. Majority does not win. This is a republic, where the rights of one trump the opinion of many.

[DeadheadForPaul]

If you ask me, a lot of people on this forum pay way too much attention to Israel. There is a lot more talk about Israel on this forum than among the Christians I know.

I think it depends on which Christians you know

Growing up in my Church, we were never preached to about Israel - for or against it. Additionally, none of my Christian friends ever came out for or against Israel, so I guess their churches did not push it either. However, there are certainly millions of Christians in the U.S. who believe that support for Israel is more important than all others positions in political life. As a result of these evangelicals' hardcore support for Israel, others have taken note and have either joined, ignored, or fought against it

[Bman]

Sorry; this isn't a democracy. Majority does not win. This is a republic, where the rights of one trump the opinion of many.

One = life that can sustain itself.

[Bman]

Christians are about 80% of the US population so you better be compatible with Christianity or you might as well give up.

And I'm not just saying that because I'm Baptist.

You mean people who say they are christian.

[Njon]

One = life that can sustain itself.


You're just making up defintions to fit your view. If you have conjoined twins and one is dependant on the other, can you kill the dependant to satisfy the other?

Such a view is eugenicist trash.

[Bman]

You're just making up defintions to fit your view. If you have conjoined twins and one is dependant on the other, can you kill the dependant to satisfy the other?

Such a view is eugenicist trash.

Oh so you think you aren't making it up? Reality is only definable by perception. You're no more of an authority than I am. Only difference is that you think throwing women ages 15-24 in jail will some how solve people wanting to get abortion, or actually stop them from getting one.

Sorry, it just does not compute.

[asimplegirl]

I think it depends on which Christians you know

Growing up in my Church, we were never preached to about Israel - for or against it. Additionally, none of my Christian friends ever came out for or against Israel, so I guess their churches did not push it either. However, there are certainly millions of Christians in the U.S. who believe that support for Israel is more important than all others positions in political life. As a result of these evangelicals' hardcore support for Israel, others have taken note and have either joined, ignored, or fought against it

I was raised pentecostal, and every church I ever went to, including church camps and things like that ALL focused so much time focusing on Israel. I have heard about it since I was a small child. About how we had to protect it, no matter the cost....then when I got towards the age to age, we were told to always pick the guy who stands up for Israel, or else they could be the antichrist.

Ever since leaving that church, and visiting other religions, I haven't heard much about it at all.

[Njon]

Oh so you think you aren't making it up?

I'm not making up definitions, no. I'm simply applying logic and ethics to policy.



Reality is only definable by perception.

What kind of subjectivist nonsense is this? The Earth revolves around the sun; whether you believe that or not doesn't really matter. Facts are facts.



You're no more of an authority than I am. Only difference is that you think throwing women ages 15-24 in jail will some how solve people wanting to get abortion, or actually stop them from getting one.

I don't know where you're getting this age range from. Should we legalize murder just because laws against it have not completely wiped it out?

[Bman]

I'm not making up definitions, no. I'm simply applying logic and ethics to policy.

lol. What ever makes you sleep better at night.



What kind of subjectivist nonsense is this? The Earth revolves around the sun; whether you believe that or not doesn't really matter. Facts are facts.

Yes they are. What you said bore no relation to the argument you have just presented. The scary thing is that you cannot seperate the two.



I don't know where you're getting this age range from.

FACTS!



Should we legalize murder just because laws against it have been ineffective in wiping it out?

So if a pregnant woman trips and the pregnancy terminates should we charge her with involuntary manslaughter. I mean it would only seem correct if I were to support your theory on life.

[Njon]

Yes they are. What you said bore no relation to the argument you have just presented. The scary thing is that you cannot seperate the two.

What I did was use an example to demonstrate your flawed subjectivist philosophy about perception. Perception does not change reality regardless of how many people perceive something a certain way.



FACTS!

What facts? You aren't being very specific. You brought up a certain age range; why?




So if a pregnant woman trips and the pregnancy terminates should we charge her with involuntary manslaughter. I mean it would only seem correct if I were to support your theory on life.

Talk about a lame strawman argument.

I'm going to bed.

[Bman]

What I did was use an example to demonstrate your flawed subjectivist philosophy about perception. Perception does not change reality regardless of how many people perceive something a certain way.


No you took an idea and tried to relate it to a physical structure. Two totally different things.


What facts? You aren't being very specific. You brought up a certain age range; why?


Sheesh. It's simple look for census data on woman who have gotten abortions. 80% are between the ages of 15-24 (*edit sorry it's closer top 15-29 to get to 80%). If you don't believe me I don't care.

Here have some fun. (http://www.abortionfacts.com/Statistics/age.asp)



Talk about a lame strawman argument.

I'm going to bed.


I gather that you would know.

[BlackTerrel]

I think it depends on which Christians you know

Growing up in my Church, we were never preached to about Israel - for or against it. Additionally, none of my Christian friends ever came out for or against Israel, so I guess their churches did not push it either. However, there are certainly millions of Christians in the U.S. who believe that support for Israel is more important than all others positions in political life. As a result of these evangelicals' hardcore support for Israel, others have taken note and have either joined, ignored, or fought against it

There are Christians that care about Israel based on their interpretation of the Bible but that's it. A lot of people here are obsessed with Israel, everything in the world is Israel's fault. It's negative and it's not healthy for this movement.

You should be able to agree to disagree with evangelical Christians if you actually want to gain power. You could probably drop the Israel issue which is not nearly as important as some here make it out to be. I am far more concerned with my own life in this country than with what goes on in Israel.

[robert9712000]

bman the flaw in your argument for a womans right to choose is lost when the woman chooses to have sex.Thats a big problem in the world ,is people dont want to take responsibility for there actions.
If they didnt want to have a kid that bad they should practice abstenence.As crazy as it is it is posible to do.The only reason to abort is completely a selfish one

[max]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

Its a bullshit argument. You show me where in the NEW TESTAMENT that Jesus says its OK to murder Arabs on behalf of the "chosen people"

To the contrary, Jesus refuted the wh9le idea of "chosen people" and taught that "all can enter the kingdom"...

The jewish priests hated him and had him whacked by the Romans.

Zionists HATE Jesus and all Christians.....Show your fellow church members this brief video clip of Israeli HATRED for Jesus...This ought to wake em up.

http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=6595

[tonesforjonesbones]

Well, Israel is why we keep the carp going in the middle east..this perpetual war is a communist idea. The bolshevik jews started migrating here in 1831...connect the dots..oh guess what, those are the jews who were transplanted in "Israel". There never was a land called Israel...Israel was a man and his descendents were a tribe. The descendents were called "Israelites". It was never a land. Furthermore Jacob "Israel" was the grandson of Abraham...Abraham was about 500 years old before he ever had Issac...so it was a LONG time before the Israelites even showed up. The word "jew" didn't come about until WAYYY down the line...and were either folks from the tribe of Judah or those who came from Judea...Abraham wasn't even a jew and neither were the Israelites. tones

[acptulsa]

Revelations as an excuse for supporting Israel blindly. Meh. Revelations clearly states that we know not the hour, we have no clue, we will be surprised. To claim that we need to support this incarnation of Israel because it is incumbent upon us to bring Revelations to fruition when Israel has come and gone and come back again, and can do it again, is to say that Revelations lied to us when it said we have no clue. In other words, it's us acting like we think we're God.

Yes, you can be a libertarian and love your neighbor as yourself, treat others as you would be treated, judge not, and spread the good news. Why not? It's only when you begin to see yourself as Godly-wise and begin messing with the program that you can't be libertarian--and as far as I'm concerned, you can't do that and truly be Christian, either.

[ChaosControl]

Protecting life is essential to liberty since life is the most fundamental right there is.
Just like there should be laws against murdering a fully developed adult, there should be laws against murdering humans who aren't fully developed which includes teenagers, children, babies, and the unborn. It is all just different stages of development. If you think the unborn shouldn't be protected, then why should any group be protected. According to those who say "oh no government intervention, you statist", well the same can be said about you if you think there should be laws protecting private property, heck maybe we should just allow anyone to steal and murder whoever they want.

This is why I'll never consider myself an anarchist, there needs to be at least some rule of law. There needs to be some protection for those who cannot protect themselves otherwise you're just wanting a survival of the fittest might makes right type of society. I'll stick with a constitutional minarchy, where we have laws that protect our rights from being infringed upon by others.

Libertarianism is about freedom, it isn't about chaos, how you can be anything but pro-life and claim to be libertarian makes no sense since life is the most fundamental of all liberties that needs to be guaranteed.

[marc1888]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

Where in the bible does it say that Israel must be supported for the return of Jesus?

[ChaosControl]

On the Israel thing. If they really had any real faith they'd believe that it wouldn't need protecting, that their god would protect it. The fact that they feel it needs to be protected shows they don't have much faith in their god.

They would have sunk through the water on that boat... (if you don't get the reference then this isn't really targeted towards you).

[apropos]

Where in the bible does it say that Israel must be supported for the return of Jesus?

Revelations....but it does not really say Israel must be supported as much as it communicates the idea that Israel exists during that sequence of events. If I am not mistaken, everything starts when Iran, Russia, and some others attack Israel with overwhelming force, but God intervenes to save them. That signals the beginning of the end time prophecy.

As for the OP, I would say Christianity gave birth to libertarianism. Sanctity of the individual as a belief came from and was spread through Christianity. In its modern iteration of this sanctity of the individual is treated as "individual rights".

[V3n]

How can you be Christian and not Libertarian? That is the real question!!!

Amen to that! One of God's greatest gifts to us is free will - shame to those who wish legislate away God's gift!!

[BlackTerrel]

On the Israel thing. If they really had any real faith they'd believe that it wouldn't need protecting, that their god would protect it. The fact that they feel it needs to be protected shows they don't have much faith in their god.

I don't think you understand Christianity at all. That's like saying why should Christians care about the abortion issue since God will protect the unborn?

[acptulsa]

I don't think you understand Christianity at all. That's like saying why should Christians care about the abortion issue since God will protect the unborn?

Well, you have a point. But my question is, did the land of Israel not exist when it was called Palestine, or did it exist regardless of the name that was hung on it at the time?

I firmly believe that to support the crimes of that government is to play God, and is not to do God's will.

[Bman]

Libertarianism is about freedom, it isn't about chaos, how you can be anything but pro-life and claim to be libertarian makes no sense since life is the most fundamental of all liberties that needs to be guaranteed.

Sure. We just disagree at what point something is considered to have a guarantee on life.

I mean your philosophy isn't as tight as you would like it to be. If it were you would also be a vegan. The whole notion that you think you can't draw lines on human life is ridiculous and it is proven on your choices with animals as if they were inferior or necassary for food.

If you were/are a vegan who is pro-life you have an argument and are one of the most noble creatures to walk on the planet. If you are not you are nothing short of a hypocrite.

BTW, just so all of you Christians get in line with what is the truth and what is not. Jesus was a Vegetarian and stated also not to eat anything but raw vegetables.

Some of you make this stuff up as you go along, and want to criticize me for the same? It's just simply retarded. You are no authority over me. Never will be.

[Njon]

I mean your philosophy isn't as tight as you would like it to be. If it were you would also be a vegan. The whole notion that you think you can't draw lines on human life is ridiculous and it is proven on your choices with animals as if they were inferior or necassary for food.

If you were/are a vegan who is pro-life you have an argument and are one of the most noble creatures to walk on the planet. If you are not you are nothing short of a hypocrite.

Uh, no. People are made in the image of God; animals aren't. People are superior to and have dominion over animals (Genesis 1:26). Animals were used for sacrifice, but human sacrifice was declared to be an abomination to God (Deuteronomy 12:31).



BTW, just so all of you Christians get in line with what is the truth and what is not. Jesus was a Vegetarian and stated also not to eat anything but raw vegetables.

How peculiar, seeing as how Jesus multiplied bread and fish to feed people (Matthew 14:19).



Some of you make this stuff up as you go along, and want to criticize me for the same?

I think it's pretty obvious that you are the one who is clueless here.

[Bman]

Uh, no. People are made in the image of God; animals aren't. People are superior to and have dominion over animals (Genesis 1:26). Animals were used for sacrifice, but human sacrifice was declared to be an abomination to God (Deuteronomy 12:31).

Thank god we don't live in a theocracy. Mind telling some other things that are said in Deuteronomy? Maybe some versus on punishment or such.

Oh yeah or how about some scripture in Genisis about how a dead sons wife should be given to another brother to try and produce offspring. Or how a prostitute should be killed, unless you were the one who got her pregnant.



How peculiar, seeing as how Jesus multiplied bread and fish to feed people (Matthew 14:19).

/facepalm

Maybe you should learn how to read Greek. Then you would realize the word tranlated to fish, actually means fish weed.

You have no clue what you are reading.



I think it's pretty obvious that you are the one who is clueless here.


It's pretty obvious that clueless is better than ignorant.

[andrewh817]

I don't see how an evangelical Christian could consider themselves libertarians if they preach to other people about what they should do.....

[acptulsa]

I don't see how an evangelical Christian could consider themselves libertarians if they preach to other people about what they should do.....

Honestly, there are more than a few people in the world who make me wonder how on earth they can call themselves Christians at all. But they still manage to do it--and often.

Read Matthew Chapter Six some time, and decide for yourself how many modern American Christians are in violation of it. It might teach a goodly number of people not to judge the faith itself by some of its alleged practitioners.

[Njon]

I don't see how an evangelical Christian could consider themselves libertarians if they preach to other people about what they should do.....


Telling people what they should do, and forcing them to do it, are two different things.

[ChaosControl]

I don't think you understand Christianity at all. That's like saying why should Christians care about the abortion issue since God will protect the unborn?

Okay, honest question, does the bible outright say that the nations of the world must protect Israel? If it does, then okay fine my original statement is invalid. If not it holds true as there is specifically a commandment saying Thou Shall Not Murder.

[Njon]

Thank god we don't live in a theocracy. Mind telling some other things that are said in Deuteronomy? Maybe some versus on punishment or such.

Oh yeah or how about some scripture in Genisis about how a dead sons wife should be given to another brother to try and produce offspring. Or how a prostitute should be killed, unless you were the one who got her pregnant.


You really have no idea how a logical argument works, do you? You're trying to use argument from outrage, which is fallacious. Just because you are offended by something doesn't make it untrue.



/facepalm

Maybe you should learn how to read Greek. Then you would realize the word tranlated to fish, actually means fish weed.

You have no clue what you are reading.

I just happen to have some Bible exegesis software on my computer. Let's take a look, shall we? The word in Matthew 14:19 is ἰχθύς (ichthus), defined as "Of uncertain affinity; a fish: - fish." (Cited from Strong's. e-Sword software, version 7.8.5 by Rick Meyers)

Hmm. The word for 'fish' being translated as 'fish.' Why ever would they have done that? But this 'fish weed' of which you speak is conspicuously absent.

And you know the symbol that is sometimes called the 'Jesus fish?' That's called an ichthus. Take a guess why.



It's pretty obvious that clueless is better than ignorant.

Those words are essentially synonyms, thus making your comment moot.

[ChaosControl]

Sure. We just disagree at what point something is considered to have a guarantee on life.

I mean your philosophy isn't as tight as you would like it to be. If it were you would also be a vegan. The whole notion that you think you can't draw lines on human life is ridiculous and it is proven on your choices with animals as if they were inferior or necassary for food.

If you were/are a vegan who is pro-life you have an argument and are one of the most noble creatures to walk on the planet. If you are not you are nothing short of a hypocrite.

BTW, just so all of you Christians get in line with what is the truth and what is not. Jesus was a Vegetarian and stated also not to eat anything but raw vegetables.

Some of you make this stuff up as you go along, and want to criticize me for the same? It's just simply retarded. You are no authority over me. Never will be.

I am a Vegetarian, so...

[DeadheadForPaul]

Where did Jesus say to only eat raw vegetables...?

[RoyalShock]

Where did Jesus say to only eat raw vegetables...?

Considering Jesus ate fish and lamb, I doubt he said anything of the sort.

http://www.jameswatkins.com/wwjd.htm

[Njon]

Where did Jesus say to only eat raw vegetables...?


He didn't. Bman has no clue what he's talking about, as I explained at http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2092334&postcount=141 and http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2092426&postcount=147

[tonesforjonesbones]

Jesus said everything comes from God therefore nothing is "unclean". tones

[tonesforjonesbones]

Actually He said what comes OUT of the mouth is what is important...not what goes into it. tones

[Njon]

DeadheadForPaul, you're a new Christian so let me advise you that you're going to hear all kinds of silly claims involving incorrect information (e.g., Bman), bad doctrine, etc. You need to be on guard for this kind of thing by reading the Bible daily so you can discern truth from error. Make sure you join a local church that believes at least the following:

1. There is only one God eternally-existent in three co-equal Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit

2. Jesus Christ incarnated as a human, fully God and fully man.

3. Jesus Christ literally and physically rose from the dead with the same body that was crucified, though now glorified.

4. Salvation is by grace thru faith in the work of Jesus Christ alone.

5. The 66 books of the Bible are the inspired, infallible Word of God, and are the sole final authority on all matters that they address.


There's probably more things I could list, but that's what comes to mind right now. You may want to check http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/blackregiment.php to help you find a church, if you don't already have one. I also suggest you go to http://www.e-sword.net/ and download the free Bible study software (it has lots of free add-ons that need to be downloaded separately. You have to pay for some of the add-ons, but you can just not get those ones; the free add-ons are plentiful enough).


Here's other resources:

APOLOGETICS (defending the faith):

1. http://www.carm.org/
2. http://www.tektonics.org/
3. http://www.leestrobel.com/
4. http://www.christian-thinktank.com/
5. http://www.str.org/


Apologetics scholars and authors/speakers:

1. Dr. Gary Habermas
2. Dr. William Lane Craig
3. Lee Strobel
4. Josh McDowell
5. Dr. Ben Witherington III
6. Dr. J.P. Moreland
7. Dr. Greg Bahnsen (deceased)


DOCTRINE:

1. http://www.spurgeon.org/
2. http://www.monergism.com/
3. http://www.gty.org/
4. http://www.ligonier.org/
5. http://www.desiringGod.org/
6. http://www.ccel.org/
7. http://www.gracegems.org/
8. http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/


Theologians, Bible teachers and preachers:

1. Charles Spurgeon (deceased)
2. The Puritans (deceased)
3. Dr. R.C. Sproul
4. Dr. John Piper
5. Dr. John MacArthur
6. A.W. Pink (deceased)
7. Dr. D.A. Carson
8. Dr. Sinclair Ferguson
9. Dr. Wayne Grudem

There are many more solid resources out there, but I just wanted to give you a list you can consult to help you grow in Christ. And not all of the resources I listed above always agree with one another, either. Godly people do disagree on various minor points, but they all align on the major points of doctrine (like those I listed earlier).

This may also be of help: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/hallmap.htm

[heavenlyboy34]

Protecting life is essential to liberty since life is the most fundamental right there is.
Just like there should be laws against murdering a fully developed adult, there should be laws against murdering humans who aren't fully developed which includes teenagers, children, babies, and the unborn. It is all just different stages of development. If you think the unborn shouldn't be protected, then why should any group be protected. According to those who say "oh no government intervention, you statist", well the same can be said about you if you think there should be laws protecting private property, heck maybe we should just allow anyone to steal and murder whoever they want.

This is why I'll never consider myself an anarchist, there needs to be at least some rule of law. There needs to be some protection for those who cannot protect themselves otherwise you're just wanting a survival of the fittest might makes right type of society. I'll stick with a constitutional minarchy, where we have laws that protect our rights from being infringed upon by others.

Libertarianism is about freedom, it isn't about chaos, how you can be anything but pro-life and claim to be libertarian makes no sense since life is the most fundamental of all liberties that needs to be guaranteed.

There is a problem with your reasoning. You equate State law and "law enforcement" with crime prevention. Laws and government police do not prevent crime. They in fact CREATE far more criminals than they stop. (for example, drug laws and the FAILED drug war) You also reason that the State can guarantee liberties. It cannot-and in fact regularly violates liberties. :p:mad: In short, private laws and law enforcement(security) are the only logical way to go.

/hijack...we'll talk more about this in another thread sometime. ~hugs~ ttyl!

[DeadheadForPaul]

DeadheadForPaul, you're a new Christian so let me advise you that you're going to hear all kinds of silly claims involving incorrect information (e.g., Bman), bad doctrine, etc. You need to be on guard for this kind of thing by reading the Bible daily so you can discern truth from error. Make sure you join a local church that believes at least the following:

1. There is only one God eternally-existent in three co-equal Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit

2. Jesus Christ incarnated as a human, fully God and fully man.

3. Jesus Christ literally and physically rose from the dead with the same body that was crucified, though now glorified.

4. Salvation is by grace thru faith in the work of Jesus Christ alone.

5. The 66 books of the Bible are the inspired, infallible Word of God, and are the sole final authority on all matters that they address.


There's probably more things I could list, but that's what comes to mind right now. You may want to check http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/blackregiment.php to help you find a church, if you don't already have one. I also suggest you go to http://www.e-sword.net/ and download the free Bible study software (it has lots of free add-ons that need to be downloaded separately. You have to pay for some of the add-ons, but you can just not get those ones; the free add-ons are plentiful enough).


Here's other resources:

APOLOGETICS (defending the faith):

1. http://www.carm.org/
2. http://www.tektonics.org/
3. http://www.leestrobel.com/
4. http://www.christian-thinktank.com/
5. http://www.str.org/


Apologetics scholars and authors/speakers:

1. Dr. Gary Habermas
2. Dr. William Lane Craig
3. Lee Strobel
4. Josh McDowell
5. Dr. Ben Witherington III
6. Dr. J.P. Moreland
7. Dr. Greg Bahnsen (deceased)


DOCTRINE:

1. http://www.spurgeon.org/
2. http://www.monergism.com/
3. http://www.gty.org/
4. http://www.ligonier.org/
5. http://www.desiringGod.org/
6. http://www.ccel.org/
7. http://www.gracegems.org/
8. http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/


Theologians, Bible teachers and preachers:

1. Charles Spurgeon (deceased)
2. The Puritans (deceased)
3. Dr. R.C. Sproul
4. Dr. John Piper
5. Dr. John MacArthur
6. A.W. Pink (deceased)
7. Dr. D.A. Carson
8. Dr. Sinclair Ferguson
9. Dr. Wayne Grudem

There are many more solid resources out there, but I just wanted to give you a list you can consult to help you grow in Christ. And not all of the resources I listed above always agree with one another, either. Godly people do disagree on various minor points, but they all align on the major points of doctrine (like those I listed earlier).

This may also be of help: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/hallmap.htm

Thanks for the links, friend!

I noticed that you said infallible rather than inerrant...I'm in the infallible but not inerrant camp right now. Wondering if you purposefully did that or mean inerrant

[nickcoons]

The Christian Argument for Libertarianism (http://www.nickcoonsforcongress.com/blog/view.php?id=13)

Gandhi once said: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." The intention behind the comment was to highlight how many Christians, whose professed goal in life is to live like Christ, do not resemble him in any way. From a political standpoint, many Christians advocate government attempts to impose their morals on society, such as banning gay marriage, outlawing drugs and prostitution, or stealing from their neighbors through taxation in order to fund unjust wars around the globe.

The Eighth Commandment reads, "Thou Shalt Not Steal." Taking something that does not belong to you is wrong. We learn this from an early age, and it has been a commonly accepted belief for thousands of years. So how does a Christian justify voting for a candidate or supporting anything that is funded by taxation? Is it a numbers game? Is it okay for two people to rob you because they are the "majority"? That justification simply won't do.

There is a big difference between living a moral life, and imposing your morals on others. Jesus spent a good portion of his life preaching his ideas and attempting to persuade people of their virtues. In his travels, he encountered many that did not agree with him, and he used persuasion in an attempt to convince them to change their ways. But at no point did he initiate force against them as a way of imposing his morals on others. In fact, he was adamantly opposed to the initiation of force. Ironically, many Christians have no problem with promoting candidates that will use the force of government to impose their morals on the rest of society. Promoting the use of force is a complete rejection of the teachings of Christ.

"A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim." -- L. Neil Smith

By the accounts of Jesus' actions, he was libertarian in how he lived his life.

[Njon]

Thanks for the links, friend!

I noticed that you said infallible rather than inerrant...I'm in the infallible but not inerrant camp right now. Wondering if you purposefully did that or mean inerrant


I would say that infallible is a stronger word than inerrant, and infallible implies inerrant. Inerrant simply means to be without error; infallible means absolutely and authoritatively unchallengable. But inerrant doesn't mean that any particular translation of the Bible is perfect.

You may want to take a look at the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy: http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

It's a wonderful document that explains things well, and the introduction on that website gives you the background to it. The exposition has a section called "Infallibility, Inerrancy, Interpretation."

[BlackTerrel]

Honestly, there are more than a few people in the world who make me wonder how on earth they can call themselves Christians at all. But they still manage to do it--and often.

Read Matthew Chapter Six some time, and decide for yourself how many modern American Christians are in violation of it. It might teach a goodly number of people not to judge the faith itself by some of its alleged practitioners.

Pretty much everyone I'm friends with is some form of Christian and with only one exception they've all had premarital sex. That's why I believe religion should be a private matter - it is for me. It's a pointless debate really, I consider myself a reasonable person and I'm open to discussion on most issues. I won't debate my religion and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. I don't care what "evidence" you bring. I'm a Christian and that's that - which is why they call it faith.

Most people I know (regardless of religion) are the same way. So instead of bashing Christianity, or trying to turn them away from their faith you better find a way to make your politics compatible with their religion - otherwise you're fucked (it's a simple numbers game). It shouldn't be that hard seeing as Ron Paul is a Christian.

[BlackTerrel]

Okay, honest question, does the bible outright say that the nations of the world must protect Israel? If it does, then okay fine my original statement is invalid. If not it holds true as there is specifically a commandment saying Thou Shall Not Murder.

I wasn't debating you on that. I'm a Christian who doesn't believe that Israel has anything to do with my religion.

I was arguing your "if God cares about it then God will do it" argument. I think that's a basic misunderstanding of Christianity.

[RiJiD-W1LL]

BlackTerrel I think that is just BLIND.

you say you have faith but then you say god will do it if he cares,.

well god is supposed to be fair & just oh wait but isn't he cruel as-well banishing you to hell if you do not see jesus as your savior.

I am just saying you seem smart open your eyes the world is older than 5,000 years isnt it?

[Njon]

No, God is not cruel. God is holy and righteous. As explained here:

YouTube - Christ The Only Way-R.C. Sproul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxX3kEJT88g)

[RiJiD-W1LL]

sorry, I wont watch that and yes god is cruel look at history! the bible is a story written by man for man debate over.

[ChaosControl]

I wasn't debating you on that. I'm a Christian who doesn't believe that Israel has anything to do with my religion.

I was arguing your "if God cares about it then God will do it" argument. I think that's a basic misunderstanding of Christianity.

I didn't mean as a whole, I meant regarding prophecy and Israel only.
If Israel is supposed to stand for X prophecy to be fulfilled, then I think that it should be able to stand without the US protecting it. If it doesn't, then the prophecy was never meant to be fulfilled.

[RiJiD-W1LL]

I didn't mean as a whole, I meant regarding prophecy and Israel only.
If Israel is supposed to stand for X prophecy to be fulfilled, then I think that it should be able to stand without the US protecting it. If it doesn't, then the prophecy was never meant to be fulfilled.



that says it all Prophecy is written throughout the entire bible and what prophecy literally word for word has ever come to be.

[asimplegirl]

I don't think God is cruel. I think PEOPLE that follow what they THINK God is telling them are cruel..or atleast have little to no compassion compass.

IMO, God is a peaceful, loving, forgiving being. I will not believe that God as horrible as some "christians" make him out to be.

[RiJiD-W1LL]

you need to read the bible a couple more times then because all christians believe it is gods word and there is some really fuked up shit in there. I dont quote the bible because I do not want to spread BS but I assure you I can start a megathread on the lack of ethics in the bible.

[asimplegirl]

Yes...BELIEVE being the key word.

I believe that the bible is a collection of things. The first being a recording of events that happened in history....note, I did not say that I believe all events in the bible happened, just that some of them did, and were recorded, so it should be looked at in part as a history book.

The second description I would give is a collection of stories with a moral to it, that are meant to show us by example how the hand of God may work in ways we cannot understand, or even see at the time they are happening, and to lead our hearts how to live in the correct way.

The thing to remember is that Jesus didn't WRITE the bible...In fact, much of the bible isn't even the story of Jesus, and instead is a recording of a vast collection of family trees.

We must take it all at face value. I have read the Bible, and what I have gotten from it is different than what other Christians may not have....but that is interpretation, and in my opinion, interpretations that are wrong in my, or your opinion, are what you are seeing as wrong...making God, to you, seem horrible at the very least.

I am sorry you see things this way, but maybe you have never met a joyful Christian, one that sees a loving God, and doesn't spend their time trying to turn people to their way of life, all while bashing them over the head with hatred, and instead spend their time loving, trying to lead by an example others would be proud to be part of?

Don't let the bad ones lead you to believe that ALL of us are that way. Trust me, we aren't.

[bunklocoempire]

A true Christian does not interpret the bible, a true Christian lets the bible interpret itself.

It is to easy to pick and choose those things that agree or disagree with ones views.

This should be familiar, think Constitution, Bill of Rights, intent, etc..

What happens when we pick and choose?

EDIT: Are Christianity and Libertarianism compatible? FULL ON!

Bunkloco (a joyful Christian) :)

[asimplegirl]

I agree with you completely, bunk. And the way I feel is how the bible interprets itself to me.

The people's interpretation is what I think causes alot of discourse between even Christians who believe in the same core things....much less what it looks like to anyone outside.

[mellamojuana]

The Scripture is written by many "indy-viddles" :D over many, many years. Essentially, it is a faith history of individuals, "clans," and an entire people. They wrote (or told their stories orally), and, like us, their stages of development/understanding are evident in their writing.

Someone who was unsure whether God was a "good" God or a "bad" God certainly left personal, spiritual questions right there in the text!

There really seems to be 'way more reference to hope and to the dominion of God, aka "kingdom of God" than there is to God's judgment. (I prefer the former term because we have made God exclusively male, and Scripture did not, although the male terms are certainly more numerous than the female ones used to describe God.) To get hung up on God's justice/correction/punishment is to miss the big picture. A loving Parent corrects offspring. A true Friend holds up a mirror. God "chastens" the ones God loves. Painful though that can be, that is not the whole story.

God did not make people puppets. Instead, we are in a world of choice. Godly people can disagree. I hope we can agree to be kind. None of us is outside God's circle. We proscribe; God does not.

[asimplegirl]

Well, and I think another thing that confuses people about the bible is that sometimes things they say are figures of speech..or even just names for things that they used during those times, or in those regions....and we take them literal..

Sometimes we take things much too seriously when reading the bible.

There are two examples that stand out in my mind that are related...

I will never forget hearing about "the eye of the needle" in Sunday school as a child, and even in sermons...I remember pastors and teachers saying.."Think of how hard it would be to get something through the eye of a needle", as they were taking it just as THEY understood it, with no research.

Later, while in High School and learning Latin, I started translating old writings, and it was common to come across this term. After doing a minute amount of research on the subject I found that "the eye of the needle", was not as I had been taught, and was instead, used to describe the gates of the city (for lack of a better word).

The second was hearing of how we could be anointed... put the olive oil on our forehead, and then we are anointed... that isn't exactly the way it goes. After doing some research I found that certain things had to be done, in order for ANYONE to be anointed during Jesus' times... and that was when they found a sudden enlightenment, an understanding of things, saw visions, etc...not only this, but the anointing oils used had crushed flowers and other ingredients in them, namely cannabis, something that many Christians today are opposed.... This spoke volumes to me.

Maybe these things would not mean much to someone else, but to me, it just gave me the first idea that MAYBE, just maybe, WE had it wrong...and that we were not letting Christ speak to us, through the bible, but were creating our own meanings, and our own relevance to certain topics.

[Bman]

I am a Vegetarian, so...

Well, then I think you are right to say what you say. You obviously practice what you preach.

[Bman]

You really have no idea how a logical argument works, do you? You're trying to use argument from outrage, which is fallacious. Just because you are offended by something doesn't make it untrue.

You have no idea what makes something true. Just because you think it is doesn't make it so.


I just happen to have some Bible exegesis software on my computer. Let's take a look, shall we? The word in Matthew 14:19 is ἰχθύς (ichthus), defined as "Of uncertain affinity; a fish: - fish." (Cited from Strong's. e-Sword software, version 7.8.5 by Rick Meyers)

Hmm. The word for 'fish' being translated as 'fish.' Why ever would they have done that? But this 'fish weed' of which you speak is conspicuously absent.


And you know the symbol that is sometimes called the 'Jesus fish?' That's called an ichthus. Take a guess why.



Wow. Bible stuff backing up bible stuff. Who could've figured that out.
Read up. (http://www.thenazareneway.com/biblical_%20vegetarianism_denis_giron.htm)



Those words are essentially synonyms, thus making your comment moot.

I must applaud you. I didn't think you'd be smart enough to figure that out. Congrats Mr. Obvious.

[Bman]

One last thing Njon.

Since you advocate the Government being involved with abortions I thought I'd bring you in on a secret. Currently it is. How's that working out for you?

Careful what you wish for you may not get what you want.

[InterestedParticipant]

I strongly urge that the OP read The Presence of the Kingdom by by Jacques Ellul (http://www.amazon.com/Presence-Kingdom-Jacques-Ellul/dp/0939443147), at it says that "the Christian should neither withdraw from the world, nor be lost in the midst of the world. Instead, the Christian should bring the reign of God and the world into collision."

Contrary to advocating withdrawal from the world or urging a lifeboat, Ellul challenges us to embrace and preserve the world. God alone will effect our separation in hi own time. This resolute engagement requires a dialectical and antagonistic style of life which remain very much in the world even as it rejects worldliness. To be in the world also requires us to understand it in both its material and spiritual aspects, a task Ellul has undertaken in his sociological and theological works and which he challenges us to better. By rejecting the twin perils of spiritualization (which neglect material realities) and capitulation (which simply adopts one of the world's many different options that appears to harmonize with Christianity), the Christian plays a truly creative role and gives meaning and direction to history, which otherwise has no logic or certitude.

Authentic Christian existence trusts in the power of the HolySpirit to give our "presence" a revolution and explosive force in history.

[Bman]

the Christian plays a truly creative role and gives meaning and direction to history, which otherwise has no logic or certitude.


Yep logic.
http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/salem/images/hibbins1.jpg

[asimplegirl]

Not all Christians feel that the above is right, Bman. Please don't make such generalizations.

[Bman]

Not all Christians feel that the above is right, Bman. Please don't make such generalizations.

What only christians can be antagonistic. That post deserved such a response.

[jsu718]

Pretty much everyone I'm friends with is some form of Christian and with only one exception they've all had premarital sex. That's why I believe religion should be a private matter - it is for me. It's a pointless debate really, I consider myself a reasonable person and I'm open to discussion on most issues. I won't debate my religion and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. I don't care what "evidence" you bring. I'm a Christian and that's that - which is why they call it faith.

Most people I know (regardless of religion) are the same way. So instead of bashing Christianity, or trying to turn them away from their faith you better find a way to make your politics compatible with their religion - otherwise you're fucked (it's a simple numbers game). It shouldn't be that hard seeing as Ron Paul is a Christian.

Well, most people would take your pre-marital sex example and say they aren't Christians at all, but that isn't how it works. 100% of people violate the tenets of Christianity, but some try to make amends for it. It's the same thing with politics. There is not a single person in government who is perfect and has never violated some strict sense of exact standards. Nobody can be a perfect libertarian (yes, even RP has some imperfect stances in their view), but instead of blasting them for their one of two differing views that might actually match those of their constituents we should focus on the parts that we all agree on, or at the very least the general idea of a smaller less intrusive government.

[asimplegirl]

What only christians can be antagonistic. That post deserved such a response.

Well, if you were responding to ONE PERSON to mirror their own response, then that is your business..I am sorry. I thought you were directing that comment and picture to ALL of us, when I didn't feel that that type of thing has anything to do with being a Christian.

[Bman]

Well, if you were responding to ONE PERSON to mirror their own response, then that is your business..I am sorry. I thought you were directing that comment and picture to ALL of us, when I didn't feel that that type of thing has anything to do with being a Christian.

I was raised in a very christian family. I also share a lot of values that are christian, even though at my current stage of life I consider myself agnostic.

Sometimes the way I comment is hard to understand in context. It's been a problem of mine since I can remember. I certainly did not mean to offend anyone for being christian.

[asimplegirl]

Oh, no offense taken here. :)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and feelings....There is no way we could no another person's path, or what got them where they are...

BTW, I think it is hard to understand context on the internet anyway, unless you use those damned smiley heads and such.

[Bman]

Oh, no offense taken here. :)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and feelings....There is no way we could no another person's path, or what got them where they are...

BTW, I think it is hard to understand context on the internet anyway, unless you use those damned smiley heads and such.

:D;):cool::eek::confused::(:mad::p:rolleyes:

[asimplegirl]

LOL. I have a really funny smiley, but I can't use it...it is REALLY offensive.

[Bman]

LOL. I have a really funny smiley, but I can't use it...it is REALLY offensive.

http://www.19.5degs.com/element/18165.php

[asimplegirl]

No...it's WAY more offensive than that. :D

[asimplegirl]

Hey, what do you think of the responses to the creationism thread in off topic?

How do you think it relates to libertarianism? Or does it?

[Theocrat]

I find it appalling that some members here would dare to question whether Christianity and libertarianism are compatible with each other. The precepts of libertarianism originated with our Founders, preceded by the Puritan Fathers who first came here. The idea that God has given us liberty to move and have our being (especially in freedom of worship) was a cornerstone of thinking and life in the lives of both the Puritans and Founding Fathers. However, I wish to address something which "atheistic" opponents of this thread may have not realized about their own worldview. How can "atheism" (not to be confused with "atheists") as a system of thought be compatible with liberty in the first place?

On an "atheist" worldview, there is only matter and energy. Those things which are tangible and made real by the five senses are the only things which can be judged as real. Inherently, the "atheist" worldview is reduced to the motion of atoms within human anatomy, since we're nothing but biological bags of chemicals with electricity running through us. It then becomes evident that our very being is only subject to what the electrochemical processes in our bodies make us do, being subject to physical laws themselves. Thus, we have no control or "free will" to make right choices, since our bodies only do what the chemicals in us make us do. There can be no such thing as "liberty" in a worldview of just material objects and impersonal forces of nature. Liberty itself is not made of matter, being conceptual in nature.

So, then on this worldview, liberty only becomes based on relative perceptions from the human brain, which is guided by neurological processes itself. For some people, liberty could be getting what you can by any means possible. For others, liberty can be ensuring everyone has equal wealth. Yet, for others, liberty is living for the highest pleasure in life, whether it's sexual or material in nature. Each of these standards of liberty is ultimately based on the movement of atoms within an individual's body. Obama has his standards of liberty based on the electrochemicals of his body just as Ron Paul does. Neither one has any control over what his body computes for himself about the nature of liberty, for they are both on equal ground.

That is what you're left with in an "atheist" worldview of liberty. Essentially, if "atheism" is true, then liberty cannot exist in all the ways we think of in our human experience, as an objective, universal, and invariant right which all humans are entitled to. So, "atheism" and libertarianism cannot be compatible at all, given the precepts of its own philosophical implications as a worldview.

[Bman]

Hey, what do you think of the responses to the creationism thread in off topic?

How do you think it relates to libertarianism? Or does it?

How one thinks everything began I see as a non-topic as far as a persons politics go.

Personally I'm not going to think much of someone who views science as rubbish. But I have no problem with anyone coming up with any theory and making an attempt to refute the current understanding. It's just hard/more than likely impossible refuting a theory on how everything began. It isn't hard refuting how long ago some of the theories say things began.

[asimplegirl]

How is it appalling for someone to wonder how something would work? It is a question worth answering.

Maybe if we spent more time answering questions like the good hearted Christians we should be, instead of being appalled at everything that question what we believe, we would have more people join our side, don't you think?

After all, I am secure enough in what I believe that I welcome ANY questions, and will give as much info as I can on any topic, in order to maybe lead by example.

[Bman]

I find it appalling that some members here would dare to question whether Christianity and libertarianism are compatible with each other. The precepts of libertarianism originated with our Founders, preceded by the Puritan Fathers who first came here. The idea that God has given us liberty to move and have our being (especially in freedom of worship) was a cornerstone of thinking and life in the lives of both the Puritans and Founding Fathers. However, I wish to address something which "atheistic" opponents of this thread may have not realized about their own worldview. How can "atheism" (not to be confused with "atheists") as a system of thought be compatible with liberty in the first place?

On an "atheist" worldview, there is only matter and energy. Those things which are tangible and made real by the five senses are the only things which can be judged as real. Inherently, the "atheist" worldview is reduced to the motion of atoms within human anatomy, since we're nothing but biological bags of chemicals with electricity running through us. It then becomes evident that our very being is only subject to what the electrochemical processes in our bodies make us do, being subject to physical laws themselves. Thus, we have no control or "free will" to make right choices, since our bodies only do what the chemicals in us make us do. There can be no such thing as "liberty" in a worldview of just material objects and impersonal forces of nature. Liberty itself is not made of matter, being conceptual in nature.

So, then on this worldview, liberty only becomes based on relative perceptions from the human brain, which is guided by neurological processes itself. For some people, liberty could be getting what you can by any means possible. For others, liberty can be ensuring everyone has equal wealth. Yet, for others, liberty is living for the highest pleasure in life, whether it's sexual or material in nature. Each of these standards of liberty is ultimately based on the movement of atoms within an individual's body. Obama has his standards of liberty based on the electrochemicals of his body just as Ron Paul does. Neither one has any control over what his body computes for himself about the nature of liberty, for they are both on equal ground.

That is what you're left with in an "atheist" worldview of liberty. Essentially, if "atheism" is true, then liberty cannot exist in all the ways we think of in our human experience, as an objective, universal, and invariant right which all humans are entitled to. So, "atheism" and libertarianism cannot be compatible at all, given the precepts of its own philosophical implications as a worldview.

Theo. You understand very little about an atheist.

I will tell you something that is funny however.

If you take the census data of atheist vs christians living in a state, the trend is that the states with more atheists have less crime. Some how they seem to do quite well respecting each other with out a god.

[asimplegirl]

How one thinks everything began I see as a non-topic as far as a persons politics go.

Personally I'm not going to think much of someone who views science as rubbish. But I have no problem with anyone coming up with any theory and making an attempt to refute the current understanding. It's just hard/more than likely impossible refuting a theory on how everything began. It isn't hard refuting how long ago some of the theories say things began.

I agree...I think that PERSONAL beliefs and politics have nothing in common. We know what is right, and that is what we should stand up for, not what we BELIEVE is right.

Also, I tend to think little of someone who is close minded, even if they believe the exact same thing as me.

[Theocrat]

How is it appalling for someone to wonder how something would work? It is a question worth answering.

Maybe if we spent more time answering questions like the good hearted Christians we should be, instead of being appalled at everything that question what we believe, we would have more people join our side, don't you think?

After all, I am secure enough in what I believe that I welcome ANY questions, and will give as much info as I can on any topic, in order to maybe lead by example.

I'm simply calling those who oppose Christianity as having compatibility with libertarianism to stand in their own worldview and be consistent, rather than stand in ours and try to bash our beliefs using our assumptions of what the nature of liberty is.

[jsu718]

Theo. You understand very little about an atheist.

I will tell you something that is funny however.

If you take the census data of atheist vs christians living in a state, the trend is that the states with more atheists have less crime. Some how they seem to do quite well respecting each other with out a god.

That isn't much of a correlation considering how very low the atheist percentage is in any given state. Note that "not religious" is different than "atheist". Those that claimed to be atheist in the US are about 0.4%

[Bman]

I'm simply calling those who oppose Christianity as having compatibility with libertarianism to stand in their own worldview and be consistent, rather than stand in ours and try to bash our beliefs using our assumptions of what the nature of liberty is.

I think it started out as an honest question. The bible says a lot of things and has given us a lot of different beliefs as to what exactly christianity is. There are certainly people who call themselves christian who could not be libertarian because of their beliefs, and their are some who could again because of their beliefs.

In the end it is a silly question. Personal beliefs do not make you libertarian. Your view towards others is more in line of whether or not you are libertarian.

[asimplegirl]

Your view towards others is more in line of whether or not you are libertarian.

qtf

[Bman]

That isn't much of a correlation considering how very low the atheist percentage is in any given state. Note that "not religious" is different than "atheist". Those that claimed to be atheist in the US are about 0.4%

Sure all the data is not exact on what it means when someone says they are not any of the religions they were asked about. But the data was on people who said they had no religion. Kinda leans more towards the idea of Atheism but it does not mean they refuse to believe that their is a god or such.

But for instance 34% of the people in Vermont say they have no religion.

[Theocrat]

I think it started out as an honest question. The bible says a lot of things and has given us a lot of different beliefs as to what exactly christianity is. There are certainly people who call themselves christian who could not be libertarian because of their beliefs, and their are some who could again because of their beliefs.

In the end it is a silly question. Personal beliefs do not make you libertarian. Your view towards others is more in line of whether or not you are libertarian.

All I'm saying is that you're not consistent as an "atheist", and I've shown from your own worldview that you can have no basis for liberty whatsoever. However, I know many "atheists" are libertarian in their political beliefs, and that is because they live in a society which has been influenced by Christian thinking. Essentially, "atheists" want the fruits of Christianity but not the roots thereof. Liberty can only make sense in a Christian paradigm of reality, civics, and morality.

The alternative is that we're all just randomly evolved bags of meat and bones with electricity running through us, like a machine. However, machines do not have liberty to do anything but what they are programmed to do. That is my point. "Atheists" have to step outside of their own worldview to make sense of liberty by borrowing from Christianity's ideals of liberty. "Atheists" beliefs on the concept of libertarianism betray the weakness of their own "atheistic" worldview.

[asimplegirl]

"Atheists" have to step outside of their own worldview to make sense of liberty by borrowing from Christianity's ideals of liberty.


And I think the point atheists make is that Christians have to step outside of THEIR worldview sometimes...if for nothing else than compassion...something this faith was built on.

[jsu718]

Sure all the data is not exact on what it means when someone says they are not any of the religions they were asked about. But the data was on people who said they had no religion. Kinda leans more towards the idea of Atheism but it does not mean they refuse to believe that their is a god or such.

But for instance 34% of the people in Vermont say they have no religion.

As I said, the term "no religion" doesn't mean atheist since it includes a variety of groups including agnostics, atheists, those who have rejected organized religion but keep their personal beliefs, and "others"... usually just those religions that weren't included in the survey.

Edit: In the 2008 ARIS study they found 15% of people in the US reported "no religion", but the combined number for agnostic and atheist was 1.6%

[Theocrat]

And I think the point atheists make is that Christians have to step outside of THEIR worldview sometimes...if for nothing else than compassion...something this faith was built on.

I disagree. The only worldview that can justify compassion is Christianity. Otherwise, we're just a conglomerate of molecules crashing together for no reason. It's impossible to derive a concept of "compassion" in a worldview such as that of naturalism. It's not so much that Christians step outside of their worldview, but rather, it's that they sometimes fall short of that worldview. That's why we have a Mediator to set us straight on the path when we fall. ;)

[asimplegirl]

I am sorry, I also MUST add that in response to this:



All I'm saying is that you're not consistent as an "atheist"

you have shown that you are not a very consistent Christian. You cannot follow only the rules you want. Do not judge. Do not hinder another's spirit. Love your neighbor. Lead by example.

Also:


and I've shown from your own worldview that you can have no basis for liberty whatsoever.

There is NO BASIS for liberty. It is given, no matter who you are, no matter what you believe, no matter who you are descended from...atleast in this country.

[Bman]

All I'm saying is that you're not consistent as an "atheist", and I've shown from your own worldview that you can have no basis for liberty whatsoever. However, I know many "atheists" are libertarian in their political beliefs, and that is because they live in a society which has been influenced by Christian thinking. Essentially, "atheists" want the fruits of Christianity but not the roots thereof. Liberty can only make sense in a Christian paradigm of reality, civics, and morality.

The alternative is that we're all just randomly evolved bags of meat and bones with electricity running through us, like a machine. However, machines do not have liberty to do anything but what they are programmed to do. That is my point. "Atheists" have to step outside of their own worldview to make sense of liberty by borrowing from Christianity's ideals of liberty. "Atheists" beliefs on the concept of libertarianism betray the weakness of their own "atheistic" worldview.

I won't argue where some of the roots of most atheists originated. I mean heck it's kind of hard for anyone of European decent to not have been influenced by christianity. Whether they like it or not.

But to say liberty can only make sense in a Christian paradigm is just flat out false. Liberty exists where ever people have freedom and respect for each other. It may be hard to swallow but you don't need a god to achieve that thought process. And the reason I know is self-evident that people who do not believe in god hold those principles.

Claim credit all you want for where an idea originated. But don't live in denial of what occurs right in front of you.

[Vessol]

Stop feeding the troll people. Jeez

[asimplegirl]

I disagree. The only worldview that can justify compassion is Christianity. Otherwise, we're just a conglomerate of molecules crashing together for no reason. It's impossible to derive a concept of "compassion" in a worldview such as that of naturalism. It's not so much that Christians step outside of their worldview, but rather, it's that they sometimes fall short of that worldview. That's why we have a Mediator to set us straight on the path when we fall. ;)

No, before there were Christians, there was humanity. You are showing the holes in YOUR belief system. Being molecules for no reason, and being compassionate are not related...even animals sometimes do things for each other..it is naturally occurring, no matter who is right.

[jsu718]

I won't argue where some of the roots of most atheists originated. I mean heck it's kind of hard for anyone of European decent to not have been influenced by christianity. Whether they like it or not.

But to say liberty can only make sense in a Christian paradigm is just flat out false. Liberty exists where ever people have freedom and respect for each other. It may be hard to swallow but you don't need a god to achieve that thought process. And the reason I know is self-evident that people who do not believe in god hold those principles.

Claim credit all you want for where an idea originated. But don't live in denial of what occurs right in front of you.

It would be easier to claim that Christianity entirely conflicts with the concept of capitalism and property ownership than it would be to claim that Christianity is required for liberty. I agree that the god-given unalienable rights do not depend on a belief in said God, but they are harder to argue for in the absence of that belief.

[Vessol]

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z174/rubberpoultry/dont_feed_the_trolls.jpg?t=1240561346

[Bman]

Stop feeding the troll people. Jeez

Troll people? Not here.

Here we have...
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachments/month_0808/crabpeople_KLi2PhzYtbg7.jpg

[Fox McCloud]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all


I'd say that, yes, yes it is...and as a matter of fact, I'd say the Bible is more supportive of liberty than many here realize.

For example, if your fellow brothers and sister in Christ cite Romans 13, come back and them and tell them it wasn't properly translated in the KJV (likely for political reasons or fear of their lives....doesn't make it right on their part, just saying the likely reason). The actual word used is "exousia" which means "Freedom" or "power of choice"...therefore, a more accurate translation of Romans 13, may be: “Let every soul be subject unto the higher liberty. For there is no liberty but of God: the liberties that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the liberty, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the liberty? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same.” Romans 13: 1-3

In any event, it's always an awesome thing to meet a follower of Christ, especially if they're a libertarian. :P

edit: one thing I used to (attempt) to shut up the staunch supporters of Israel is this (who want the US to 'protect' them or attack other countries for them): If the present Israel really is God's Israel, then we need not lift a finger for them, as God will protect them. If they are utterly destroyed, it's likely either God's judgment of Israel (after all, look at the Old Testament and how often he crushed them for disobedience) or it's not really God's Israel and perhaps man's pseudo-Israel (there's the Valley of the Dry Bones thing to consider).

just my 2 cents.

To whom it's concerned: No, I'm not back, I just thought this *really* needed to be addressed.

[Theocrat]

I won't argue where some of the roots of most atheists originated. I mean heck it's kind of hard for anyone of European decent to not have been influenced by christianity. Whether they like it or not.

But to say liberty can only make sense in a Christian paradigm is just flat out false. Liberty exists where ever people have freedom and respect for each other. It may be hard to swallow but you don't need a god to achieve that thought process. And the reason I know is self-evident that people who do not believe in god hold those principles.

Claim credit all you want for where an idea originated. But don't live in denial of what occurs right in front of you.

You obviously didn't read what I posted because I already acknowledged that "atheists" believe in liberty. I said their worldview cannot account for liberty, given the precepts of their system. That is why they have to borrow from a Christian conception of liberty in order to make sense of liberty. In essence, "atheists" are acting like Christians whenever they appeal to liberty as an ideal or a right of "self-evident" truth. Based on their worldview, electrochemical processes in the brain cannot do such a thing.

[jsu718]

You obviously didn't read what I posted because I already acknowledged that "atheists" believe in liberty. I said their worldview cannot account for liberty, given the precepts of their system. That is why they have to borrow from a Christian conception of liberty in order to make sense of liberty. In essence, "atheists" are acting like Christians whenever they appeal to liberty as an ideal or a right of "self-evident" truth. Based on their worldview, electrochemical processes in the brain cannot do such a thing.

Not entirely true. They generally cite "natural law", as if something being true in nature isn't the same as God making it so.

[Theocrat]

Not entirely true. They generally cite "natural law", as if something being true in nature isn't the same as God making it so.

"Natural law" is self-refuting in their system. Law is not inherently made of natural elements, so I don't even see how they can make sense of law in their own worldview. The 16th century Scottish "atheist" philosopher David Hume showed persuasively that you cannot derive an "ought" (a right or law) from an "is" (nature or materials). Nature just is, and it does not grant anyone anything. Natural law comes from a Christian perspective of rights in the discipline of civics, even though I prefer not to use that term.

[BlackTerrel]

BlackTerrel I think that is just BLIND.

you say you have faith but then you say god will do it if he cares,.

well god is supposed to be fair & just oh wait but isn't he cruel as-well banishing you to hell if you do not see jesus as your savior.

I am just saying you seem smart open your eyes the world is older than 5,000 years isnt it?

You know what I can't even argue with you. When it comes to my faith I am blind. I'm a Christian and that's it. I have prayed to Christ and he has worked through me. There's no debate for me on this. I am open to debate on almost all issues, but on matters of faith I am a Christian and that is all.

I don't think I'm different than the majority of Christians on this, though I may just be more blunt and honest about my views. The answer to "are Christianity and libertarianism compatible?" is that "they better fucking be otherwise libertarians are screwed". You are not going to achieve any sort of success in this country without the support of Christians. As I said, it shouldn't be too hard seeing as Ron Paul is himself a Christian is he not?

[BlackTerrel]

you need to read the bible a couple more times then because all christians believe it is gods word and there is some really fuked up shit in there. I dont quote the bible because I do not want to spread BS but I assure you I can start a megathread on the lack of ethics in the bible.

But why would you? Why waste your time and effort in a futile argument? Just accept that others have different beliefs than you and move on to other things.

[BlackTerrel]

Sure all the data is not exact on what it means when someone says they are not any of the religions they were asked about. But the data was on people who said they had no religion. Kinda leans more towards the idea of Atheism but it does not mean they refuse to believe that their is a god or such.

But for instance 34% of the people in Vermont say they have no religion.

Correlation does not equal causation.

How many black people live in Vermont? I'm not being a dick but almost every issue in the United States has a racial component. Certainly this one does. Is crime in Vermont low because of the number of atheists, or because they are almost entirely white?

I've lived in black areas and I've lived in white areas and the incidence of crimes in these areas is shockingly different. As a black person even I am terrified of entering certain "black neighborhoods" (like the one I grew up in) and I am sure it would be even less safe for a white person. I don't blame black people for this, or at least don't think any race is more inherently prone to crime than another - I think it has to do with generations of oppression (which is perhaps an issue for another thread).

All that said, blacks are far more religious than whites. Hispanics are also far more religious than whites. So is the amount of crime in less religious states due to the religion or due to the racial issue with which religion correlates? I would argue that it is the latter.

[chickens]

I didn't see all of the posts. but this is who I voted for and this is who Ron Paul endorsed. http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2009/cbarchive_20090407.html

[JVParkour]

For me,

I feel that my Libertarianism is actually 'at home' and feels very...right and natural when paired with Christianity.

As a new believer, there are lots of things that are confusing and need to be thought out...
Here is how my beliefs mesh:

-God gave man free will, even free will to do the wrong, or sinful, thing.

-This freedom is touched upon in many verses...it is for freedom that Christ has set us free...also Paul talks about the 'believer's freedom'.

-As I look at Jesus, I realize that he did not judge or condemn people, though he did recognize sometimes that what they were doing was sinful. He ate with them, talked with them, and if they didn't want to follow him, he was ok with that.

-From this, I get my beliefs that homosexuality should not be illegal (or even federally mandated for that matter), because each person has been given the freedom to do what they want, even if it is wrong.

-I am able to say that homosexuality is wrong because of free speech. I can tell them to their face "I think you are wrong", but am not able to force them from being gay, that is the beauty of it. I think of it this way; if the majority of people in this country were athiests and gays, and decided to outlaw religion, would that be ok with most Christians? NO! Just because we are the majority does not mean we can force our beliefs on others, ie. this is a REPUBLIC and not a democracy.

-I support a stance of armed neutrality. There is a time for peace and a time for war, but only when there are severe threats to many many lives. We are one of the most militaristically advanced countries, scared to death about 'terrists'. As Ron Paul brings up, we didn't go crapping our pants when threatened with nukes...now we are running from imaginary foes. As Israel goes, Christ will come with or without them.
They are God's chosen people, (Paul says some tricky things in Romans about 'all of israel being saved'. But they technically shunned God's son, Jesus (according to the Christian perspective) and I see God big enough to work with or without our help.

I hope this helps explain a little of what I believe, or at least get ya thinking... PM me if ya have any more questions! Ill try my best to help out!

Good luck Following Christ, its the hardest but most rewarding thing ever!

[idiom]

Christianity presupposes Liberty not the other way around.

However what sort of definiton of Liberty rules out the existence of Free Will?

[JaylieWoW]

You know what I can't even argue with you. When it comes to my faith I am blind. I'm a Christian and that's it. I have prayed to Christ and he has worked through me. There's no debate for me on this. I am open to debate on almost all issues, but on matters of faith I am a Christian and that is all.

I don't think I'm different than the majority of Christians on this, though I may just be more blunt and honest about my views. The answer to "are Christianity and libertarianism compatible?" is that "they better fucking be otherwise libertarians are screwed". You are not going to achieve any sort of success in this country without the support of Christians. As I said, it shouldn't be too hard seeing as Ron Paul is himself a Christian is he not?

Ok I know this is going to be way to simplistic. I'm not all that great at discussing deep thinking philosophical kinds of things. The bolded statement above bothers me, though I've not put my finger on the reason why. Maybe because it seems a bit "collectivist" sounding to some extent. But, primarily I think because the goal is supposed to be about liberty of the individual. I know reaching that goal will take "groups/individuals" making a stand together, but in the context of we won't achieve our goal of individual liberty without the support of group "a", "c" & "b" it almost sounds threatening.

I know that isn't your intent but I wonder how often we gloss over and don't really think about the full implication of what we are saying and how that affects our ability to accept/tolerate others.

I see this quite often and wondered if anyone else had similar perhaps more insightful thoughts.

[asimplegirl]

I have. I also notice that those that make almost collectivist, intolerant statements tend to claim that no one wants to accept the group that they are in, and they are seen in a collective way.

That makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Theocrat]

Christianity presupposes Liberty not the other way around.

However what sort of definiton of Liberty rules out the existence of Free Will?

I disagree with that statement. Indeed, it is the other way around, for one needs an established worldview, first, before they can define what liberty is. Liberty does not justify itself without a belief system to make sense of it. Therefore, liberty presupposes Christianity in order to derive a proper definition of what liberty is. The first instance of liberty afforded to us is freedom from the power of sin through Christ. If man is enslaved to sin, he cannot enjoy liberty in a civil sense, nor can he rightly be self-governed, which is a precondition to true liberty.

[InterestedParticipant]

I love Theocrat. I only hope that someday I can have the same level of understanding that he/she has.

Reading Jacques Ellul helps, but there's much understanding to get through.

[dgr]

"the Truth shall set you free"

[heavenlyboy34]

I love Theocrat. I only hope that someday I can have the same level of understanding that he/she has.

Reading Jacques Ellul helps, but there's much understanding to get through.

Tho Theo is unfortunately still stuck in the statist mindset :(, I'm getting to like him more nowadays, too.:cool: :) ~hugs Theo~

[BeFranklin]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

Hi Brother in Christ :):)

FYI: That is a relatively recent belief in some Christian churches. The traditional belief is that the old testament prophecy was fulfilled in Christ, and prophecy in the new testamement is about New Jerusalem , His church and His bride he is coming back for. I'm not the only one on here that believes this. I'm kindof sick from a recent injury and slow, but I can point you to the passages in the New Testament if you have time.

Hebrews 12
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

Galatians 4
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


1 Peter 2
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Revelation 21
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

[idiom]

I disagree with that statement. Indeed, it is the other way around, for one needs an established worldview, first, before they can define what liberty is. Liberty does not justify itself without a belief system to make sense of it. Therefore, liberty presupposes Christianity in order to derive a proper definition of what liberty is. The first instance of liberty afforded to us is freedom from the power of sin through Christ. If man is enslaved to sin, he cannot enjoy liberty in a civil sense, nor can he rightly be self-governed, which is a precondition to true liberty.

Yeah, because if they haven't been selected by God for Salvation then what do they need Liberty for anyway? Its not like they would know what to do with it.

[LibertyEagle]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

Folks, please review the OP's FIRST post. He was quite specific that he wanted advice from Christian libertarians. That means, it is NOT a thread for those of you who like to bash Christians.

Please stay on-topic. Thanks.

[BeFranklin]

Are there any Bible verses about JUST WAR?

I'm not a pacifist, but I support DEFENSIVE wars. Does the bible say anything about how to conduct a war? I can't point to anything to support the Just War theory. Need verses that do not support offensive wars...

much thanks

I think about these verses sometimes:

Proverbs 24
17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: 18 Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him. 19 Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked: 20 For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.

[BlackTerrel]

Ok I know this is going to be way to simplistic. I'm not all that great at discussing deep thinking philosophical kinds of things. The bolded statement above bothers me, though I've not put my finger on the reason why. Maybe because it seems a bit "collectivist" sounding to some extent. But, primarily I think because the goal is supposed to be about liberty of the individual. I know reaching that goal will take "groups/individuals" making a stand together, but in the context of we won't achieve our goal of individual liberty without the support of group "a", "c" & "b" it almost sounds threatening.

The vast majority of this country is Christian. If Libertarianism and Christianity are not compatible then Libertarians are screwed. That may be blunt, but it's true.

Luckily for us the two are compatible. After all Ron Paul is a Christian. Which kind of makes the whole thread topic moot doesn't it?

[idiom]

The vast majority of this country is Christian. If Libertarianism and Christianity are not compatible then Libertarians are screwed. That may be blunt, but it's true.

Luckily for us the two are compatible. After all Ron Paul is a Christian. Which kind of makes the whole thread topic moot doesn't it?

There is, believe it or not, some depth to Christianity.

Some forms of Christianity are incompatible with libertarianism.

[Theocrat]

There is, believe it or not, some depth to Christianity.

Some forms of Christianity are incompatible with libertarianism.

If that's the case, then I would say that's a safe sign that those forms of Christianity are not truly Christianity.

[idiom]

If that's the case, then I would say that's a safe sign that those forms of Christianity are not truly Christianity.

I would be careful which forms of Christianity I was dennouncing if I were you Theo.

[heavenlyboy34]

There is, believe it or not, some depth to Christianity.

Some forms of Christianity are incompatible with libertarianism.

Care to name these denominations, sir? :eek::confused:

[Bman]

Care to name these denominations, sir? :eek::confused:

I'd imagine the Westboro Baptist Church would be one of those denominations.

[idiom]

Care to name these denominations, sir? :eek::confused:

Libertarianism has as a tenet that men (and if you are really progressive, women) can govern themselves.

A number of theologies state that geverments are required to govern men, or that perhaps priests are required, or an education at bible college is required to govern yourself correctly.

Others would define non-christians as immoral and unable to govern themselves.

[BlackTerrel]

There is, believe it or not, some depth to Christianity.

Some forms of Christianity are incompatible with libertarianism.

That's not what I'm arguing. I was arguing with the general thread title. Which I think is a moot point.


I'd imagine the Westboro Baptist Church would be one of those denominations.

Is that even a real Church? It's one guy and his extended family, basically. Of course not every Christian can be a Libertarian but of course many can and are. RP is a Christian so what's the problem?

[Brassmouth]

No. Statism is religion. How else do you think the state began as an institution?

Without religion, we'd be free.

[Theocrat]

No. Statism is religion. How else do you think the state began as an institution?

Without religion, we'd be free.

Statism is based on the religion that there is no invisible, transcendent, and eternal God. That is why the State essentially becomes a god over its people, giving them entitlements, security, and providing for all their economic and medical needs. It is the religion of humanism which brings about statism. People no longer look to God for their welfare, but they rely upon men for their daily needs, especially in government. That is where we're at in our current political culture.

[andrewh817]

Telling people what they should do, and forcing them to do it, are two different things.

Exactly, you're not forced to do anything even by the government, you just risk imprisonment and a fine if you don't abide by their rule.

[Objectivist]

I'm a recent convert to Christianity (yes I know...here come the :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: haha)

I'm looking for advice from fellow Christian Libertarians here...

Well I've been debating Christians on a Christian board about the Iraq War/Israel/foreign policy. They're blindly supportive of the Iraq War and believe that any Christian must support Israel through the government (because Israel is necessary for the return of Christ)

What do you say to the Israel argument? I take the libertarian position on this issue but am wondering if this is compatible with Christian views at all

No!

[Soca Taliban]

They are very much compatible and I honestly believe you can't be a christian unless you're a "libertarian".