Buchanan: Decline of the Anglos

[stu2002]

http://buchanan.org/blog/?p=853

PJB: The Decline of the Anglos

Posted By Linda On September 18, 2007 @ 1:18 am In PJB Columns | Comments Disabled

by Patrick J. Buchanan

In Russia’s Ulanovsk region, Sept. 12 is Conception Day.

Workers are given the day off and encouraged to go home and do their best to conceive a new Russian. The hope is to have a bumper crop of babies on Russia’s national holiday, nine months off.

Conception Day has occasioned much mirth and ribald humor. But for Mother Russia, the issue of her children is no laughing matter.

Two decades ago, the Soviet Union was three times the size of any of the other giant nation – the United States, Canada, China, Brazil – and the third most populous, with nearly 300 million people. Came then the great crack-up of 1990-91.

The Baltic republics – Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia – broke free first. Next were Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova in the west; Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan in the Caucasus; and Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan in Central Asia.

These amputations removed a third of the territory and half the population of the Soviet Union. Yet the remnant, Russia, remained twice as large as any other nation and still boasted a population of 150 million.

Since the 1990s, however, Russia has been losing population at a rate of 750,000 a year – not to emigration, but to death. By one count, the Russian population is down to 143 million. President Putin has predicted that only 124 million Russians will be alive in 2015. In 2000, the United Nations projected that, at its present birth rate, by 2050 Russia’s population would fall to 114 million.

In a 2005 study, the United Nations estimated that, together, Ukraine and Russia will lose 50 million people – 25 percent of their combined populations – by mid-century. The Slavs are dying out, and the geostrategic implications are enormous.

In a few decades, Turkey, which seeks entry into the European Union, will become Europe’s most populous nation. Like Xerxes’ bridge of boats across the Hellespont, Turkey will be the Asian land bridge into Europe, the Bridge of The Prophet into the homeland of the Christians.

As critical, the vast majority of Russians live west of the Urals, while east of Novosibirsk (New Siberia City), all the way to Kamchatka, the tiny Russian population is departing or dying out. Yet, in timber, oil and minerals, this is the most resource-rich region on earth. And south of Siberia lies the most populous and resource-hungry nation on earth.

American children born today may have Chinese for neighbors across the Bering Strait from Alaska.

Nor is it only the Slavic peoples who are expiring. So, too, are the native-born populations of Western and Southern Europe, as the empty nurseries of Europa fill with bawling Muslim babies.

Americans of European ancestry are also declining as a share of the U.S. population, down from near 90 percent into 1960 to 66 percent today. Anglos, as they are called now, are now minorities in our two largest states, Texas and California, and, by 2040, will be a minority in the nation that people of British and European stock built.

Last month, the Census Bureau projected the U.S. population would grow by 167 million by 2060, to 468 million.

And immigrants and their children will constitute 105 million of that 167 million. That would be triple the 37.5 million legal and illegal immigrants here today, which is itself the largest cohort of foreigners any nation has ever taken in.

With the 45 million Hispanics here to rise to 102 million by 2050, the Southwest is likely to look and sound more like Mexico than America. Indeed, culturally, linguistically and ethnically, it will be a part of Mexico.

Like Russians, Americans of European ancestry are failing to reproduce. Yet, a closer look reveals that population growth remains healthy among the religiously devout – evangelical Christians, Catholic traditionalists, Muslims and Mormons. Among the secularists, however, birth rates are far below Zero Population Growth – and the possibility of extinction looms.

One recent study found that the Jewish population in the United States fell by 6 percent in the 1990s, from 5.5 million to 5.2 million. Orthodox Jews, however, are known for families of five, eight or 10 children.

“And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and have dominion … over every living creature.” So reads Genesis. And so European Man once preached and practiced. But having lost his empires along with his faith, European Man no longer sees himself as commissioned by God.

Indeed, he no longer believes in God. Among our best and brightest are many whose purpose is to enjoy life to the fullest and to end it, when the time comes, as painlessly as possible.

Which seems to suit the rest of the world – China, India, Islam, Africa, Latin America – fine, as all look forward to a magnificent inheritance.

If demography is destiny, the West is finished. And, if so, does it really matter all that much who rules in Baghdad?
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Article printed from Patrick J. Buchanan - Official Website: http://buchanan.org/blog

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[johngr]

Those slated to replace "Anglos" (a slur) and other European peoples in their homelands aren't too interested in liberty or any of the values reflected in the Magna Carta, Common Law, Viking Law, the ancient Icelandic anarchic system, Declaration of Independence or US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

[Corydoras]

An interesting article coming at secularism from a completely different angle is this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/16/books/review/Goldstein-t.html

The claim is basically that secularism was the result a very unusual historical situation, and that throughout human history and in most of the world, religious values are an integral part of the way people understand life.

Perhaps secularism is a self-extinguishing phenomenon insofar as it is not welcoming toward children.

And yet indeed European cultures were the only ones to be really interested in rights. If European civilization is going to fall, it remains to the United States to uphold the concept of rights, coupled with the acknowedgement that religious values are a natural part of life.

[Dustancostine]

Get to having sex people.... :)

[Dustancostine]

Oh and on another note. It is hard to afford kids under socialism.

[drednot]

This is the area where I think Buchanon tends to lose the plot.

He says "Americans" may have "Chinese" as neighbors across the straight, conflating citizenship with race. A lot of Americans are Chinese.

Few people are more enamored with the critical Western tradition of liberty than asian and european immigrants to America. As Ayn Rand said to a heckler, "I chose to live here, what do you every do besides being born?".

I work in Silicon Valley, with folks originally from India, China, France, Korea, Iceland, you name it. Yet we all watch Lost, play Warcraft, and generally appreciate capitalism, secularism and freedom.

If you only look at race and ethnicity, you miss the fact that Western philosophy is increasingly dominating the world.

[johngr]

No nations other than European and European diaspora ones are required to take in people of other races. "Chinese", "Japanese", et. al. still refer to the the ethny of the people who founded and reside in those nations. It is all but impossible to for anyone but a Japanese "become" "Japanese". One is struck on visiting there with the unbrokeninto vending machines in residential areas selling relatively expensive items and the lack of graffiti and other social pathological symptoms of the non-existent 2nd generation ersatz Japanese.

[EvilEngineer]

Yeah... idiotocracy had it right. Smart and affluent people don't breed far enough, while conversely the stupid and poor breed out the wazoo.

[PaleoForPaul]

This is the area where I think Buchanon tends to lose the plot.

He says "Americans" may have "Chinese" as neighbors across the straight, conflating citizenship with race. A lot of Americans are Chinese.

What does that matter? What he means is CHINA IS GOING TO TAKE SIBERIA.


Few people are more enamored with the critical Western tradition of liberty than asian and european immigrants to America. As Ayn Rand said to a heckler, "I chose to live here, what do you every do besides being born?".

I work in Silicon Valley, with folks originally from India, China, France, Korea, Iceland, you name it. Yet we all watch Lost, play Warcraft, and generally appreciate capitalism, secularism and freedom.

The Chinese government appreciates secularism, and people there play warcraft too. That has nothing to do with how demographic changes will effect the world (which was the point of the article)



If you only look at race and ethnicity, you miss the fact that Western philosophy is increasingly dominating the world.

Western philosophy, or western culture? They are two different things.

It doesn't seem to me that western philosophy is dominating the world, other than former communist countries are putting on good imitations of capitalism.

[ChooseLiberty]

Devolution.

The more the third world comes to the US the more the US is like the third world.

Those cultures were never based on Democracy or Freedom. If they have Democracy it's just a show like in Mexico, to cover over the fact there are a few very rich Spanish or Lebanese families ruling over millions of mestizo peasants.



Yeah... idiotocracy had it right. Smart and affluent people don't breed far enough, while conversely the stupid and poor breed out the wazoo.

[hmurchison]

I'm concerned with "Anglos" and their relative numbers but rather keeping the ideology of Western Civ and as fair of a commerce framework as possible clean and unsullied.

The race of the progenitor has little correlation with how effective other people can embrace the progentors creation or ideology.

You don't have to be Karl Marx to understand his philosphy, you don't have to be Jewish to understand Jesus.

Those who attempt to insert racial supremacy laced with FUD as sound politiking are being disingenous at best.

[Nefertiti]

An interesting article coming at secularism from a completely different angle is this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/16/books/review/Goldstein-t.html

The claim is basically that secularism was the result a very unusual historical situation, and that throughout human history and in most of the world, religious values are an integral part of the way people understand life.


That is true. There was a time when atheism as we know it today didn't exist. I attended a lecture a couple months ago where the speaker argued that really before Judaism, and especially Christianity, the idea of religions didn't really exist in the sense that one people didn't believe their religion was right and those of others were wrong. People worshipped different gods but they didn't regard those different gods as not existing.

[Locke_rpr]

Well, I guess I'm part of the problem. I'm not Anglo nor Saxon, but of Welsh decent... a Briton, like Arthur and his round table. I guess that's close enough. I don't hold a grudge for them taking England away from us, that was a long time ago; although, the Welsh word for England does still translate as "The Lost Lands". Anyway, I'm sorry to say that I'm deliberately not having kids because I consider having children nowadays to be cruel. I don't look forward to what this country is going to be like in the next 30 years that I'll probably still be around. I sure don't want to have kids and make them suffer though what lies after that. Let the people who are keen on the direction this country have what they ordered.

[drednot]

....
The Chinese government appreciates secularism, and people there play warcraft too. That has nothing to do with how demographic changes will effect the world (which was the point of the article)

Western philosophy, or western culture? They are two different things.

It doesn't seem to me that western philosophy is dominating the world, other than former communist countries are putting on good imitations of capitalism.

Western Philosophy is dominating the world because it is superior.

Look at Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, Japan. Do you think these people want to go back to feudalism and emperor worship? What Western Philosophy are these people rejecting? Caucasianism? While Japan and Korea have work to do with regard to ethnic tolerance, I think progress is inevitable due to the nature of capitalism. The wealthier a people get, the more they need to import cheap labor to do things they are now overqualified to do.

Ironically immigration enhances western philosophy rather than diminishes it. Immigrants come here because they believe there's something good, not evil, about what we do. They find social mobility in the West where there was none at home. Sure some illegal proletariats coming in from Mexico are looking for free welfare (which I oppose), but most seek work.

You mention that "former communist countries are putting on good imitations of capitalism", but I'd say it's far more than a good show. Czechoslovakia, Poland, and especially the Baltic Republics are installing free market reforms that put ours to shame.

[apropos]

Anyway, I'm sorry to say that I'm deliberately not having kids because I consider having children nowadays to be cruel. Let the people who are keen on the direction this country have what they ordered.

Self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it?

I think a valid question to ask would be why our forefathers bothered having children when the world was a much more uncertain place. Disease was much more rampant. You had invading armies appear over the horizon, burning your town and enslaving your people. Even one's own government could throw you in jail for no reason. Historically, 'individual rights' have been the exception, not the rule, around the world. But in spite of all that people still had children.

Things have been much, much worse in the past. I think we need more Brits and Welsh in the world. They've brought so much good to the world overall (everything from the Magna Carta to Newton to personal hygiene) that the world will be a much dimmer place without you guys. That might sound weird, but I believe this is the case. The spirit of England and Wales is only going to last as long as there are Englishmen and Welshmen to keep it going.

I hope you'll reconsider.

[literatim]

Western Philosophy is dominating the world because it is superior.

Look at Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, Japan. Do you think these people want to go back to feudalism and emperor worship? What Western Philosophy are these people rejecting? Caucasianism? While Japan and Korea have work to do with regard to ethnic tolerance, I think progress is inevitable due to the nature of capitalism. The wealthier a people get, the more they need to import cheap labor to do things they are now overqualified to do.

Ironically immigration enhances western philosophy rather than diminishes it. Immigrants come here because they believe there's something good, not evil, about what we do. They find social mobility in the West where there was none at home. Sure some illegal proletariats coming in from Mexico are looking for free welfare (which I oppose), but most seek work.

They come here because we are wealthy and they are not. Not because they have some great dream of being apart of the republic or democracy. They decided that it was easier to come here an leech off the civilization our ancestor's built up instead of changing their own country. Then they whine about why we aren't dumping our wealth into repairing their homeland.

It is self destructing for us to let these people in. We are having a clash of cultures in our own neighborhoods. Multiculturalism does not work and will not work. You can't force a bunch of people with opposing outlooks on the world to get along. One side will die off and that side is those of the Western people. It is like a parasite that slowly kills off its host.

[drednot]

They come here because we are wealthy and they are not. Not because they have some great dream of being apart of the republic or democracy. They decided that it was easier to come here an leech off the civilization our ancestor's built up instead of changing their own country. Then they whine about why we aren't dumping our wealth into repairing their homeland.

It is self destructing for us to let these people in. We are having a clash of cultures in our own neighborhoods. Multiculturalism does not work and will not work. You can't force a bunch of people with opposing outlooks on the world to get along. One side will die off and that side is those of the Western people. It is like a parasite that slowly kills off its host.

I've got one guy telling me our culture is winning but that that doesn't matter, and now you saying our culture isn't winning.

Which "opposing outlooks" are you talking about?

Are you talking about illegals or legal immigrants?

I agree that we want americans that value liberty, capitalism and tolerance. But frankly the legal immigrants I work with exemplify these values a lot more than some of the birthright americans in the Democratic and Republican party.

Even with illegals, sure, we all see first generation types speaking broken english, watching Telemundo, and hanging on to various aspects of their home culture. But I think when you examine second generation types, they speak decent english, watch the NFL, and generally immerse themselves with the dominant culture.

I agree that spending tax dollars on trying to support "multiculturism" is counter-productive. The melting pot works on its own.

[cjhowe]

They come here because we are wealthy and they are not. Not because they have some great dream of being apart of the republic or democracy. They decided that it was easier to come here an leech off the civilization our ancestor's built up instead of changing their own country. Then they whine about why we aren't dumping our wealth into repairing their homeland.

It is self destructing for us to let these people in. We are having a clash of cultures in our own neighborhoods. Multiculturalism does not work and will not work. You can't force a bunch of people with opposing outlooks on the world to get along. One side will die off and that side is those of the Western people. It is like a parasite that slowly kills off its host.

How short sighted our view of history is.

[apropos]

But I think when you examine second generation types, they speak decent english, watch the NFL, and generally immerse themselves with the dominant culture.

That's not the case in France.

http://sixmeatbuffet.com/images/carburn1.jpg

Norway is also learning the joys of multiculturalism.

Oslo rape statistics shock


Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.


Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

[Tsoman]

of course, this is assuming that there won't be some sort of mass starvation, extreme scarcity of drinking water, killer plague, or a world war.

[Stealth4]

Self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it?

I think a valid question to ask would be why our forefathers bothered having children when the world was a much more uncertain place. Disease was much more rampant. You had invading armies appear over the horizon, burning your town and enslaving your people. Even one's own government could throw you in jail for no reason. Historically, 'individual rights' have been the exception, not the rule, around the world. But in spite of all that people still had children.

Things have been much, much worse in the past. I think we need more Brits and Welsh in the world. They've brought so much good to the world overall (everything from the Magna Carta to Newton to personal hygiene) that the world will be a much dimmer place without you guys. That might sound weird, but I believe this is the case. The spirit of England and Wales is only going to last as long as there are Englishmen and Welshmen to keep it going.

I hope you'll reconsider.

Huge 2nd.

You have to have HOPE!

[saku39]

This is the area where I think Buchanon tends to lose the plot.

He says "Americans" may have "Chinese" as neighbors across the straight, conflating citizenship with race. A lot of Americans are Chinese.

Few people are more enamored with the critical Western tradition of liberty than asian and european immigrants to America. As Ayn Rand said to a heckler, "I chose to live here, what do you every do besides being born?".

I work in Silicon Valley, with folks originally from India, China, France, Korea, Iceland, you name it. Yet we all watch Lost, play Warcraft, and generally appreciate capitalism, secularism and freedom.

If you only look at race and ethnicity, you miss the fact that Western philosophy is increasingly dominating the world.

I agree.

Blacks? Anglos? Chinese? Mexicans? Puerto Ricans? Filipinos? Who cares what ethnicity or nationality has a majority? I know I don't. Because I know in the long run it doesn't matter. The concept of races, ethnicities and nationalities are the problem. It's divisive and useless.

What matters are the ideals of personal liberty, free speech, democratic republic, free trade and capitalism. Without question, they work the best.

My father was born in Mexico. My mother's grand parents were from Poland. Neither side of my ancestors spoke english or knew the customs, but they learned and their children learned even more. As it is now, you cannot tell their grandchildren from the "native-born" americans.

They came here because this place was better. They wanted a better future for themselves and their children. The ideas of personal liberty and capitalism are huge to immigrants. In the end, no matter what race or what nationality, they all end up AMERICANS.

I agree also, article like that make me think Buchanan has lost it.

[literatim]

I've got one guy telling me our culture is winning but that that doesn't matter, and now you saying our culture isn't winning.

Which "opposing outlooks" are you talking about?

Are you talking about illegals or legal immigrants?

I agree that we want americans that value liberty, capitalism and tolerance. But frankly the legal immigrants I work with exemplify these values a lot more than some of the birthright americans in the Democratic and Republican party.

Even with illegals, sure, we all see first generation types speaking broken english, watching Telemundo, and hanging on to various aspects of their home culture. But I think when you examine second generation types, they speak decent english, watch the NFL, and generally immerse themselves with the dominant culture.

I agree that spending tax dollars on trying to support "multiculturism" is counter-productive. The melting pot works on its own.

Take a good look at our country as it stands now. It is crumbling. The values that built this country to its height were replaced. The culture isn't dying--the culture is dead. Only a remnant of its former self and glory exists today. Turn on TV, that isn't Western culture, that is the result of foreign cultures added to our own. You may call it a melting pot, but I call it a cesspool of filth that is slowly killing us like a poison. It is simply so slow that no one bothers to notice, but if you look hard you will see the effects.

The birthrates of people European ancestry, around the world, is dropping like a rock. You need an average birthrate of 2.1 to maintain the present population. In Europe, the average is 1.4. In America, the average is 1.25. All this while other peoples are multiplying rapidly.

The world population growing in leaps and bounds and none of its growth is coming from those of European ancestry. In late 60s, those of European ancestry numbered 750 million, one-fourth of the 3 billion people alive. Since then, the world population has double and those of European ancestry became one-sixth of the earth's population. Another 3 billion will be added to the earth by 2050, but Europeans will be one-tenth.

The downfall of the West has only been slowed because of technological advancements. Our medical knowledge has reduced our deaths and increased our lives, but we are reaching critical levels. What happens when we become the minority and all those from Mexico become the majority? It is already happening in various south-western States. Do people really believe they will hold loyalty to what our ancestors built? The baby boomers can only lives so long and when they die off, so will America.

[saku39]

They come here because we are wealthy and they are not. Not because they have some great dream of being apart of the republic or democracy. They decided that it was easier to come here an leech off the civilization our ancestor's built up instead of changing their own country. Then they whine about why we aren't dumping our wealth into repairing their homeland.

It is self destructing for us to let these people in. We are having a clash of cultures in our own neighborhoods. Multiculturalism does not work and will not work. You can't force a bunch of people with opposing outlooks on the world to get along. One side will die off and that side is those of the Western people. It is like a parasite that slowly kills off its host.

You are so blantantly incorrect it is offensive to me.

ALL of the immigrants I have ever known are here because the environment for prosperity is better. I have not met ANY immigrant that was interested in "leeching" off the system. NONE.

Sometimes, changing your own country is whole a lot harder than going somewhere else. What if you were a Jew in Germany, 1939? Or a worker in the Soviet Union? Or a black man in 1970's South Africa? Or a law abiding Colombian struck in the drug wars of the 1980's and 1990's? Or a landowner or entrepenuer in Venezuela right now?

Also, Multi-culturalism works fine so long as people respect each other.

When I go into my Vietnamese friends' house, I know I will be served pho and they don't like it if I wear shoes in the house. Just like when they go to my grandmothers' they will know she has Telemundo blasting in the livingroom and serves up spicy mexican food. I have an atheist friend that is best friends with a very devout Baptist. Both respect each other and neither tries to preach to the other because both believe in free-will. (What brings them together? Comic books and action movies.)

In each case, neither side is trying to convert the other to their way of life. They are accepting of differences, but are brought together by similarities (anything from music, movies, sports, etc. The majority of which are "american")

That's not to say there won't be disagreements or problems. Nobody's perfect. But it's not nearly as bad as you say. Not even close. In fact, you make it sound like total war-- When it is most certainly not.

Every culture has its differences and its nuances, but the core of what matters in this country will stay the same: personal liberty, free speech, freedom of religion, free market and capitalism. It's what works.

It's why people come here. They can't get the same environment anywhere else.

[hmurchison]

.
It is self destructing for us to let these people in. We are having a clash of cultures in our own neighborhoods. Multiculturalism does not work and will not work. You can't force a bunch of people with opposing outlooks on the world to get along. One side will die off and that side is those of the Western people. It is like a parasite that slowly kills off its host.

BS. Athenians thought differently than Spartans and thus were two seperate cultures by many definitions yet they could unite to fight a common enemy (Persia). Europe, and its significance to this Planet, cannot be understated but let us fool no one Europe was the epicenter of many multicultural conflicts which resulted in innovation in military equipment and strategy and overall evolution if Western Philosphy. If one side of opposing views dies off then natural selection has once again proven to be one of the Masters of all theory.

[hmurchison]

Take a good look at our country as it stands now. It is crumbling. The values that built this country to its height were replaced. The culture isn't dying--the culture is dead. Only a remnant of its former self and glory exists today. Turn on TV, that isn't Western culture, that is the result of foreign cultures added to our own. You may call it a melting pot, but I call it a cesspool of filth that is slowly killing us like a poison. It is simply so slow that no one bothers to notice, but if you look hard you will see the effects.

The birthrates of people European ancestry, around the world, is dropping like a rock. You need an average birthrate of 2.1 to maintain the present population. In Europe, the average is 1.4. In America, the average is 1.25. All this while other peoples are multiplying rapidly.

The world population growing in leaps and bounds and none of its growth is coming from those of European ancestry. In late 60s, those of European ancestry numbered 750 million, one-fourth of the 3 billion people alive. Since then, the world population has double and those of European ancestry became one-sixth of the earth's population. Another 3 billion will be added to the earth by 2050, but Europeans will be one-tenth.

The downfall of the West has only been slowed because of technological advancements. Our medical knowledge has reduced our deaths and increased our lives, but we are reaching critical levels. What happens when we become the minority and all those from Mexico become the majority? It is already happening in various south-western States. Do people really believe they will hold loyalty to what our ancestors built? The baby boomers can only lives so long and when they die off, so will America.

Hyperbole. Crime is actually down in the US as opposed to say 10-15 yrs ago. Americans still enjoy a standard of living that makes us very desirable to live. Frankly I do not care to address the rest of your idiotic post. Perhaps your Stormfront buddies would though.

[saku39]

I've got one guy telling me our culture is winning but that that doesn't matter, and now you saying our culture isn't winning.

Which "opposing outlooks" are you talking about?

Are you talking about illegals or legal immigrants?

I agree that we want americans that value liberty, capitalism and tolerance. But frankly the legal immigrants I work with exemplify these values a lot more than some of the birthright americans in the Democratic and Republican party.

Even with illegals, sure, we all see first generation types speaking broken english, watching Telemundo, and hanging on to various aspects of their home culture. But I think when you examine second generation types, they speak decent english, watch the NFL, and generally immerse themselves with the dominant culture.

I agree that spending tax dollars on trying to support "multiculturism" is counter-productive. The melting pot works on its own.

I second what you are saying about immigrants being absorbed into the US. There are actually statistics that support this.

First generations tend to be a half and half mix of cultures. Seconds are for the most part "americanized" but still carry some of the culture form the first generation. By third generation, it is extremely rare that they even can speak their grandparent's language. They are practically indistinguishable from your "average" american.

I am a example of this: I can speak no Polish that my great grand parents spoke and I can barely speak any spanish my grandmother speaks. I prefer BBQ chicken, pizza and hamburgers to tacos, barszcz soup, and kielbasa. I prefer NBA finals and the UFC to the world cup. I'd rather watch Saturday Night Live than Sabado Gigante. And the list can go on and on.

I also agree, tax-dollars for multi-culturalism is definitely a no-no.

[literatim]

You are so blantantly incorrect it is offensive to me.

of the immigrants I have ever known are here because the environment for prosperity is better. I have not met ANY[/SIZE] immigrant that was interested in "leeching" off the system. NONE.

Sometimes, changing your own country is whole a lot harder than going somewhere else. What if you were a Jew in Germany, 1939? Or a worker in the Soviet Union? Or a black man in 1970's South Africa? Or a law abiding Colombian struck in the drug wars of the 1980's and 1990's? Or a landowner or entrepenuer in Venezuela right now?


Be offended all you want, I do not care. Reality is harsh and the effects are clear. Living in deluded visions of rainbows and unicorns does not fix the problem.

Leeching off our system? They are leeching off our prosperity. It isn't just about coming here and hopping on the welfare bandwagon. It is about coming here and bringing their culture with them. The same culture that has kept their homelands in disparity for generations.


Also, Multi-culturalism works fine so long as people respect each other.

When I go into my Vietnamese friends' house, I know I will be served pho and they don't like it if I wear shoes in the house. Just like when they go to my grandmothers' they will know she has Telemundo blasting in the livingroom and serves up spicy mexican food. I have an atheist friend that is best friends with a very devout Baptist. Both respect each other and neither tries to preach to the other because both believe in free-will. (What brings them together? Comic books and action movies.)

In each case, neither side is trying to convert the other to their way of life. They are accepting of differences, but are brought together by similarities (anything from music, movies, sports, etc. The majority of which are "american")

It is naivety to believe that one culture will respect another for long. The only thing keeping the minority cultures from dominating over the others is the strength of the majority culture. How far do we go to accommodate? How much do we tolerate?

Culture goes beyond taking ones shoes off when entering someones house. Culture is the fundamental outlook and way of life of the people. The Republic itself is apart of our culture.


That's not to say there won't be disagreements or problems. Nobody's perfect. But it's not nearly as bad as you say. Not even close. In fact, you make it sound like total war-- When it is most certainly not.

Every culture has its differences and its nuances, but the core of what matters in this country will stay the same: personal liberty, free speech, freedom of religion, free market and capitalism. It's what works.

It's why people come here. They can't get the same environment anywhere else.[/COLOR]

It isn't nearly as bad as I say? Was I just hallucinating when two giant airliners flew into the World Trade Center? Am I imagining the Aztlan movement among Mexicans coming across our borders? How about the repeated call for Sharia Law in Canada and various other countries with a high Muslim population? What do you think will happen when they become the majority?


BS. Athenians thought differently than Spartans and thus were two seperate cultures by many definitions yet they could unite to fight a common enemy (Persia). Europe, and its significance to this Planet, cannot be understated but let us fool no one Europe was the epicenter of many multicultural conflicts which resulted in innovation in military equipment and strategy and overall evolution if Western Philosphy. If one side of opposing views dies off then natural selection has once again proven to be one of the Masters of all theory.

We are talking about destruction from within ala Trojan Horse.

[Dustancostine]

What happens when we become the minority and all those from Mexico become the majority? It is already happening in various south-western States. Do people really believe they will hold loyalty to what our ancestors built? The baby boomers can only lives so long and when they die off, so will America.

I'm not sure what you are afraid of, but the Hispanics trace their ancestry to the same WEST that Anglo's do, just a different country (Spain instead of the UK/Germany/Italy). I live in Texas and I have seen no affect on the politics of Texas with the increase of the Hispanic Population. I also lived in South Florida and if wasn't for the Cuban's, Miami would be 10 times more liberal than it is.

Also there is a problem with the way statistics are being compiled. Statisticians act like only "pure blooded" anglo's are considered caucasian. Any mixing what so ever makes that person another race.

For instance, I am caucasian, my wife is hispanic from Santo Domingo, DR. We have two daughters that would be considered hispanic because my wife is hispanic, even though they are 50% caucasian. Thus showing that I as a caucasian had a 0% reproductive rate because my children hispanic.

But what if you looked further. My wife's father was 25% Dutch. That would make my children 56.25 "white" but they are still considered hispanic. My wife also has African genes, Taino Indian genes and Spanish genes. From my side of the family there are remote native american genes as well from both sides of my family.

While my wife can pass as African American my youngest daughter is pale and has blond hair.

These statistics are usless, utterly useless!!!!!


--Dustan

[saku39]

Be offended all you want, I do not care. Reality is harsh and the effects are clear. Living in deluded visions of rainbows and unicorns does not fix the problem.

Leeching off our system? They are leeching off our prosperity. It isn't just about coming here and hopping on the welfare bandwagon. It is about coming here and bringing their culture with them. The same culture that has kept their homelands in disparity for generations.

Sir, you have it so wrong it is disturbing. Immigrants have added to the prosperity of the country. This goes back to the Italian, German, Irish, Chinese in the 1800's to the Jewish of the 1930's to the Vietnamese and Koreans of the 1970's, to the Mexican, Indian, Filipino immigrants of today. They bring new ideas, new workers, new businesses to the economy.


It is naivety to believe that one culture will respect another for long. The only thing keeping the minority cultures from dominating over the others is the strength of the majority culture. How far do we go to accommodate? How much do we tolerate?

Culture goes beyond taking ones shoes off when entering someones house. Culture is the fundamental outlook and way of life of the people. The Republic itself is apart of our culture.

You sound like a neo-con that relies only on fear to make argument. I am not naive and neither is anybody else when they believe in personal freedom, a democratic republic and free market capitalism. This is what ties us all together, including the immigrants. I believe in personal freedom as do everyone else I know, including the immigrants.

Sure, culture is more than food, entertainment and dress. I apologize for not making it more clear. You are correct that outlook is part of culture. But know this: They come here because they share the same outlook on freedom and free market capitalism.


It isn't nearly as bad as I say? Was I just hallucinating when two giant airliners flew into the World Trade Center? Am I imagining the Aztlan movement among Mexicans coming across our borders? How about the repeated call for Sharia Law in Canada and various other countries with a high Muslim population? What do you think will happen when they become the majority?

Now you're talking complete nonsense.

A terrorist attack is because of our culture? "They hate us because we're free?"

Do you realize you sound like a neo-con hack right now?

If I recall, that attack happened because of our militrary presence in the arabian peninsula, our economic sanctions and bombing of Iraq, and our financial and military support of Israel.

The Aztlan movement, the Sharia Law idiots, etc are marginal fools that will NEVER be the majority. Why? Because of personal freedom, because of free market capitalism, because of republic. It is a better way and a better system. After having all these rights for their entire lives, how will people feel if their rights are taken away?

[literatim]

I'm not sure what you are afraid of, but the Hispanics trace their ancestry to the same WEST that Anglo's do, just a different country (Spain instead of the UK/Germany/Italy). I live in Texas and I have seen no affect on the politics of Texas with the increase of the Hispanic Population. I also lived in South Florida and if wasn't for the Cuban's, Miami would be 10 times more liberal than it is.

Mestizos align themselves with the Aztecs, not Spaniards. That is why there is a large Aztlan movement within the Mexican and south-western US populace.


Also there is a problem with the way statistics are being compiled. Statisticians act like only "pure blooded" anglo's are considered caucasian. Any mixing what so ever makes that person another race.
Isn't that natural when attempting classification? When a Tiger and a Lion mix, it is neither one nor the other but is an entirely different grouping of Liger.


For instance, I am caucasian, my wife is hispanic from Santo Domingo, DR. We have two daughters that would be considered hispanic because my wife is hispanic, even though they are 50% caucasian. Thus showing that I as a caucasian had a 0% reproductive rate because my children hispanic.

But what if you looked further. My wife's father was 25% Dutch. That would make my children 56.25 "white" but they are still considered hispanic. My wife also has African genes, Taino Indian genes and Spanish genes. From my side of the family there are remote native american genes as well from both sides of my family.

While my wife can pass as African American my youngest daughter is pale and has blond hair.

These statistics are usless, utterly useless!!!!!


--Dustan


Hispanic is not a racial group. It is a classification by language, it covers a broad base. Someone from Spain is a Hispanic, but so is a Mestizo or a white from Mexico.

People cry out when a sub-species of animal become endangered, but not only do they not care that such a thing is happening to a group of people, they argue for it. I am not sure I can't count how many times I have heard "I can't wait till everyone has a permanent tan."

They don't want diversity, they want extinction.



Sir, you have it so wrong it is disturbing. Immigrants have added to the prosperity of the country. This goes back to the Italian, German, Irish, Chinese in the 1800's to the Jewish of the 1930's to the Vietnamese and Koreans of the 1970's, to the Mexican, Indian, Filipino immigrants of today. They bring new ideas, new workers, new businesses to the economy.

Then please show me what we have gained. More population? You can look at the state we are today and tell me that our entire culture hasn't been beaten down to utter ruin? Every problem we have today is a symptom of all the conflicting cultures we have allowed into our country and their absorption.


Sure, culture is more than food, entertainment and dress. I apologize for not making it more clear. You are correct that outlook is part of culture. But know this: They come here because they share the same outlook on freedom and free market capitalism.

They come here because they want an easier life instead of fighting for a better life in their own lands.


Now you're talking complete nonsense.

Do you realize you sound like a neo-con hack right now?

You sound like a neo-con that relies only on fear to make argument. I am not naive and neither is anybody else when they believe in personal freedom, a democratic republic and free market capitalism. This is what ties us all together, including the immigrants. I believe in personal freedom as do everyone else I know, including the immigrants.


If I recall, that attack happened because of our militrary presence in the arabian peninsula, our economic sanctions and bombing of Iraq, and our financial and military support of Israel.

Do you know why we are in the Middle East? It isn't our interests. You mention our support for Israel as a point of your argument, yet it is the essence of my argument. We let in a foreign people and we are suffering the consequences. The government is no longer a representation of us, but of another people.


The Aztlan movement, the Sharia Law idiots, etc are marginal fools that will NEVER be the majority. Why? Because of personal freedom, because of free market capitalism, because of republic. It is a better way and a better system. After having all these rights for their entire lives, how will people feel if their rights are taken away?

Sticking your head in the sand only continues to leave you ignorant of the threat.

You keep repeating "because of personal freedom, etc", but how can you look at the state we are in TODAY and say that? We are living in the result of this "melting pot".

[fsk]

The best explanation I read for declining birthrates was: "Mammals don't breed well in captivity."

[saku39]

Then please show me what we have gained. More population? You can look at the state we are today and tell me that our entire culture hasn't been beaten down to utter ruin? Every problem we have today is a symptom of all the conflicting cultures we have allowed into our country and their absorption.

You are truly nuts.

We have more and better workers, more shops, and new ideas. I'm happy as hell there's an acupuncture clinic near where I live. I'm happy that men from Brazil took jiu-jitsu made a new martial art, and started charging for lessons here in the US. Sushi, Mexican, Italian and Chinese restaurants would not exist here if not for immigrants.

Patrick Ewing is from Jamaica, Yao Ming is from China, Bela Karolyi is form Romania, Ayn Rand was from Russia, Einstein was from Germany, IM Pei is from China, Carlos Santana is form Mexico, Ludwig von Mises is from Austria, Mario Andretti is from Italy. . . Intel was run by Andy Grove from Hungary. Google and Paypal were started by immigrants. That's just the top of my head, but the list can go on.


They come here because they want an easier life instead of fighting for a better life in their own lands.

If you had a choice between fighting and possibly dying in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, Facist Italy, Apathied South Africa, Communist Cuba and Socialist Venezuela, or moving to a place all that crap ceased to exist and you could live your life the way you want, would what you choose?



Do you know why we are in the Middle East?

Mostly for oil.


You mention our support for Israel as a point of your argument, yet it is the essence of my argument. We let in a foreign people and we are suffering the consequences.

Our government supports them because they are under the impression that we must control the region and they believe that part of the key to controlling the region is Israel. The real issue is this notion that the US has to "control" the middle east.


The government is no longer a representation of us, but of another people.

You've actually spoken truth. Yes, our government is no longer a presentation of us-- it is representative of neo-con interests.


Sticking your head in the sand only continues to leave you ignorant of the threat.

Waving your arms about screaming that the sky is falling doesn't make you any less ignorant. And I don't have my head in the sand at all. If I did, I might be going on about racial extinction and other nonsense.


You keep repeating "because of personal freedom, etc", but how can you look at the state we are in TODAY and say that? We are living in the result of this "melting pot".

You are incorrect. We are in the state we are today because we've stupid people with a stupid agenda gain control of a too powerful federal government.

[saku39]

Mestizos align themselves with the Aztecs, not Spaniards. That is why there is a large Aztlan movement within the Mexican and south-western US populace.

The majority of my family is hispanic, from Mexico. They align themselves with the United States, not the Aztecs-- a centuries dead civilization. They think the Aztlan movement is foolish idiocy that ex-gang members and brainwashed latino studies students will eventually grow out of.


People cry out when a sub-species of animal become endangered, but not only do they not care that such a thing is happening to a group of people, they argue for it.

This sounds nuts. Equating animals with humans makes no sense.


I am not sure I can't count how many times I have heard "I can't wait till everyone has a permanent tan."

Really, I've never heard that. The only person I've ever heard that from are people that are advocating this notion of racial extinction and armageddon-- like yourself.


They don't want diversity, they want extinction.

Nonsense. This is just more fear-mongering.

[Dustancostine]

Literatim, You understand you are being extremely collectivist, right?

[literatim]

You are truly nuts.

We have more and better workers, more shops, and new ideas. I'm happy as hell there's an acupuncture clinic near where I live. I'm happy that men from Brazil took jiu-jitsu made a new martial art, and started charging for lessons here in the US. Sushi, Mexican, Italian and Chinese restaurants would not exist here if not for immigrants.

Patrick Ewing is from Jamaica, Yao Ming is from China, Bela Karolyi is form Romania, Ayn Rand was from Russia, Einstein was from Germany, IM Pei is from China, Carlos Santana is form Mexico, Ludwig von Mises is from Austria, Mario Andretti is from Italy. . . Intel was run by Andy Grove from Hungary. Google and Paypal were started by immigrants. That's just the top of my head, but the list can go on.

I think we could have done just fine without any of it.


If you had a choice between fighting and possibly dying in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, Facist Italy, Apathied South Africa, Communist Cuba and Socialist Venezuela, or moving to a place all that crap ceased to exist and you could live your life the way you want, would what you choose?

When the United States falls under a dictatorship. Are you just going to flee? Do you expect the West to take in every single person of the 6 billion people in the world and the 3 billion thats its expected to grow by over the next 50 years?


Mostly for oil.

Our government supports them because they are under the impression that we must control the region and they believe that part of the key to controlling the region is Israel. The real issue is this notion that the US has to "control" the middle east.

You've actually spoken truth. Yes, our government is no longer a presentation of us-- it is representative of neo-con interests.

Waving your arms about screaming that the sky is falling doesn't make you any less ignorant. And I don't have my head in the sand at all. If I did, I might be going on about racial extinction and other nonsense.

You are incorrect. We are in the state we are today because we've stupid people with a stupid agenda gain control of a too powerful federal government.


You seem to be ignorant of the influence that AIPAC and the various other foreigner organizations have within our government. You think its neocon interests when the neocon movement is a reflection of this foreign influence. The neocon movement are ex-Trotskyites. The idea of socialism and communism is not an American invention nor even Western. It is completely foreign to us and it has corrupted us to a point that we bleed for foreigners and give our inheritance away.

The United States is going to crumble, you all see it or you wouldn't be pushing for Ron Paul as President. Yet you see only the impending disaster and not what has caused it to begin with.

I think you need to take a closer look at the entire situation. It goes beyond mere foreign relations, but to the very core of our government and laws.

Jewish Law Cited in Death Penalty Case (http://www.jewishjournal.com/old/deathpenalty.1.7.0.htm)


This sounds nuts. Equating animals with humans makes no sense.

Humans aren't mammals?


Literatim, You understand you are being extremely collectivist, right?

So? Everyone is collectivist, even if you try to state otherwise. The idea of "Ron Paul Revolution" is collectivist. Identifying yourselves with your surname and family is being collectivist.

Humans are naturally collectivist. Removing our natural need of identifying ourselves in a collective is similar to how communism tries to remove our natural need to be an individual. You can't deny natural human tendencies without some form of consequences.

[Dustancostine]

I'm sorry I am not collectivist. I don't stick with my family under any conditions, I don't stick with this revolution under any circumstances.

[drednot]

...
You seem to be ignorant of the influence that AIPAC and the various other foreigner organizations have within our government. You think its neocon interests when the neocon movement is a reflection of this foreign influence. The neocon movement are ex-Trotskyites. The idea of socialism and communism is not an American invention nor even Western. It is completely foreign to us and it has corrupted us to a point that we bleed for foreigners and give our inheritance away.
....

Perle and Wolfowitz may be Jews (which is obviously what you are driving at), but so were Milton Friedman, Murray Rothbard and Ayn Rand.

You seem to suggest that ideas are genetically handed down from generation to generation. That if EITHER of your parents was not a full-blooded descendant of... Great Britain(?), he must be a socialist barbarian by nature.

Doesn't that sound scientifically dubious to you?

Do you really think that "Ligers" can't inherit the "Liberty gene"?

BTW, the earliest american colonists at Jamestown attempted communism, and most starved to death. Maybe we're not so pure after all.

[literatim]

I'm sorry I am not collectivist. I don't stick with my family under any conditions, I don't stick with this revolution under any circumstances.

Who says under any conditions? I define myself as a Christian, but just because someone calls himself a Christian, doesn't mean that I am going to align myself with them. Although I believe the words "collectivist" and "collectivism" in such a context as we are talking is fundamentally wrong because collectivism is the idea of centralized socio and economic control.


Perle and Wolfowitz may be Jews (which is obviously what you are driving at), but so were Milton Friedman, Murray Rothbard and Ayn Rand.

You seem to suggest that ideas are genetically handed down from generation to generation. That if EITHER of your parents was not a full-blooded descendant of... Great Britain(?), he must be a socialist barbarian by nature.

Doesn't that sound scientifically dubious to you?

Do you really think that "Ligers" can't inherit the "Liberty gene"?

BTW, the earliest american colonists at Jamestown attempted communism, and most starved to death. Maybe we're not so pure after all.

It is the people that create the culture, not the culture that creates the people. Pure? Hardly, but it does not discard that it is was our ancestors that created our way of life for their descendants. One is more likely to fight for something that their ancestors fought to create than a foreigner that moved in at a later time.

[Dustancostine]

I disagree with you.

From Wikipedia.

Collectivism is a term used to describe any moral, political, or social outlook, that stresses human interdependence and the importance of a collective, rather than the importance of separate individuals. Collectivists focus on community and society, and seek to give priority to group goals over individual goals.[1] The philosophical underpinnings of collectivism are for some related to holism or organicism - the view that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Specifically, a society as a whole can be seen as having more meaning or value than the separate individuals that make up that society. [2] Collectivism is widely seen as the antipole of individualism.

[Locke_rpr]

We are borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile!

[saku39]

I think we could have done just fine without any of it.

How can you not recognize the contributions of any of the people I mentioned?

Writers, Architects, computer programmers, economists, sports figures, not to mention the thousands of small business, restaurant and shop owners. To say they have ruined America is just wacko when it's not even close to the case.


When the United States falls under a dictatorship. Are you just going to flee? Do you expect the West to take in every single person of the 6 billion people in the world and the 3 billion thats its expected to grow by over the next 50 years?

First off, stop being so paranoid. Things are bad, but the US under dictatorship? I don't see it happening. (Although I'm sure there are some on this board that will state we're already at that point.)

To answer your question-- yes, I probably will leave if I feel I can't live the way I choose.

And no, I don't expect the west to take everybody and they won't. They don't have to, when did I ever say that? What I am arguing is that immigration is not this racial and cultural armageddon you're talking about.


You seem to be ignorant of the influence that AIPAC and the various other foreigner organizations have within our government. You think its neocon interests when the neocon movement is a reflection of this foreign influence. The neocon movement are ex-Trotskyites. The idea of socialism and communism is not an American invention nor even Western. It is completely foreign to us and it has corrupted us to a point that we bleed for foreigners and give our inheritance away.

You seem to be ignorant, period. You refuse to aknowledge that immigrants have contributed to this country.

Secondly, AIPAC and the neo-cons just act in concert due to a confluence of interests. Acting as if AIPAC runs the government is foolish.

Third, what does it matter where communism came from? It's an evil system irregardless of origin. Your argument that foreign influences and different cultures are harmful is wrong.

By your logic, I can deduce "because it's foreign it's bad." For example, Japan makes cheap fuel efficient cars. They are foreign, are they evil? Why? Because they're providing a product our own companies can't match? Or consider their production system. People around the world try to copy their extremely efficient system of manufacturing, called the Toyota Production System. But, oh no, because it's a foreign idea-- It must be bad and they are evil for providing well made products at a cheaper price.

Sergey Brin, an immigrant, founded Google-- that company has re-invented the way we look at search and internet technology. But he's foreign-- He and his ideas must be bad, huh?

Frederick Hayek, a foreigner, was a nobel prize winning free market economist. His book, Road to Serfdom influenced a young doctor in named Ron Paul. But he's foreign-- He and his ideas must be bad, huh?

The list can go on. . .


The United States is going to crumble, you all see it or you wouldn't be pushing for Ron Paul as President. Yet you see only the impending disaster and not what has caused it to begin with.

What? Multi-culturalism and immigration are the source of our problems? I thought it was the way too big federal government, the federal reserve and the idea of empire and our country's intervention in other countries?


I think you need to take a closer look at the entire situation. It goes beyond mere foreign relations, but to the very core of our government and laws.

I've looked at the entire situation and it's not the holocaust you're sqawking about.

Also, in regards to the talmudic argument in a death penalty case you cited-- it just said they were going to file a brief. So what? You can file briefs and argue all you want, but that doesn't guarantee jack. The court will do its job in the end. Last I checked, the guy you're talking about was executed and the jewish lobbyists lost.


Humans aren't mammals?

Wow, that's a stretch. Gee, with that kind of logic, I don't know why anybody tries anymore.

Humans = mammals; therefore we can speak about individual human rights and forest dwelling animals in the same context.

This just confirms to me that public education today is failing.


So? Everyone is collectivist, even if you try to state otherwise. The idea of "Ron Paul Revolution" is collectivist. Identifying yourselves with your surname and family is being collectivist.

Seeing yourself as a part of a family and being part of a movement is much different than what you're talking about.

You are advancing this idea of cultural elitism and societal decay. Right now, you are using the argument "collectivism exists everywhere" to justify it.

The bottom line is that your point of view is divisive, wasteful, inefficient, and completely wrong.

[saku39]

Perle and Wolfowitz may be Jews (which is obviously what you are driving at), but so were Milton Friedman, Murray Rothbard and Ayn Rand.

You seem to suggest that ideas are genetically handed down from generation to generation. That if EITHER of your parents was not a full-blooded descendant of... Great Britain(?), he must be a socialist barbarian by nature.

Doesn't that sound scientifically dubious to you?

Do you really think that "Ligers" can't inherit the "Liberty gene"?

BTW, the earliest american colonists at Jamestown attempted communism, and most starved to death. Maybe we're not so pure after all.

This is true. And what literatim is arguing isn't just dubious, it's unequivocally wrong.

[drednot]

...
It is the people that create the culture, not the culture that creates the people. Pure? Hardly, but it does not discard that it is was our ancestors that created our way of life for their descendants. One is more likely to fight for something that their ancestors fought to create than a foreigner that moved in at a later time.

Your point has some merit.

But when I look around at anglo-americans since the founding, I see a lot of antipathy toward the founding values. I see labor leaders clamoring for socialism, I see executives seeking protectionism and corporate welfare. I see religious traditionalists urging military adventurism. I see investors demanding bailouts. And worst of all I see large-scale apathy toward these trends.

If we are depending entirely on anglo-americans to preserve the uniquely american ideals, then I think we are certainly in trouble. Immigrants come here for opportunity, sure, but I think most understand that that opportunity didn't arise by chance alone. And they at least have seen how alternate civilizations have failed.

[Dustancostine]

Another problem I see is that even though anglo's are pretty much responsible for our ideals, they are also responsible for Socialist ideals, Tyrannical ideals, and Aristocratic ideals and Fascist ideals as well.

--Dustan

[ChooseLiberty]

Sorry, but changing the the type size doesn't make your argument any better.

LOL. ;)

Here's a question - why is it 99.9% "mexican-americans" that are always arguing on message boards for more immigration and getting offended when people don't agree with them.

I've never seen, heard or read these people make a similar argument - Chinese, East Indian, Russian or other Eastern European, etc. - you get the idea.

It would probably be too politically incorrect to say the actual reason.

Even on the Ron Paul board - lots of "mexican-americans" showing up lately getting excited about stopping illegal immigration.

Maybe you're on the wrong board.

Have an illegally day. :D





You are so blantantly incorrect it is offensive to me.

ALL of the immigrants I have ever known are here because the environment for prosperity is better. I have not met ANY immigrant that was interested in "leeching" off the system. NONE.

[katao]

Then please show me what we have gained. More population? You can look at the state we are today and tell me that our entire culture hasn't been beaten down to utter ruin? Every problem we have today is a symptom of all the conflicting cultures we have allowed into our country and their absorption.What have we gained? How about you and me and every other non-Native American. WE ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS!

This is exactly what Ron Paul talks about that Immigrants become scapegoats for everything wrong in this country. OUR GOVERNMENT IS TO BLAME, not the immigrants. WE CHOOSE to give them welfare.

Yes, we need to stop illegal immigration. But legal immigration in order to work is good, as long as there is no welfare state. And believe me, my profession has been hurt tremendously by cheaper immigrant and foreign labor. The benefits of the free trade of labor are exactly the same as the free trade of goods.


Here's a question - why is it 99.9% "mexican-americans" that are always arguing on message boards for more immigration and getting offended when people don't agree with them.
I am 100% Caucasian [EDIT: perhaps better said, not "mexican-american", in rebuttal to your stereotype of supporters of immigration], and it saddens me that most of the fear mongering over immigration has it's root cause in protectionism (the fear of free markets) and racism (the fear of other cultures).

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Get to having sex people.... :)

Maybe they'll invite me to go over there? I don't mind boosting up their population for them lol

[ChooseLiberty]

Some "mexicans" are Spanish, aren't they "caucasian".

That really proves nothing.



I am 100% Caucasian through and through, and it saddens me that most of the fear mongering over immigration has it's root cause in protectionism (the fear of free markets) and racism (the fear of other cultures).

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Some "mexicans" are Spanish, aren't they "caucasian".

That really proves nothing.

What? Spanish is just relating to the romance language, and to people from Spainish descent. Yes, they're "caucasian."

[Dustancostine]

The biggest problem I have with illegal immigration is concerns over American sovereignty and security.

The United States of American has the sole authority to decide who can come into this country, not the people who want to come, it doesn't matter their reasons. This is what concerns me, that certain people believe they have a right to come here without permission.

--Dustan

[mikelovesgod]

Unfortunately many of you are attacking liberatim without thinking of what this country used to be. You cannot tell me that you could watch a 40's or 50's classic movie and tell me the culture took a huge step backwards with our mesh of cultures becomes a non-culture of barbarism. It is a religion without God, a country without it's Christianity, a secularism which preaches against religion while forming it's own creeds of intolerance. The culture of the 40's and 50's is what helped get us in this mess and people lack the common sense to understand common decency in society.

Am I happy we have Yao Ming and Will Smith as successful in this country? Sure, but not at the price we are paying. The terms "yo" "later" and other ridiculous ways of expressions are the tip of the iceberg of undignified speech that is passed off as justifiable without realizing that culture is meant to form dignity of the individual person. The clothes we wear, the words we speak, and the manners that we express ourselves reflect a loss of dignity for ourselves. Abortion and the increase of parental responsibility along with the explosion of depression, suicide, and parental abuse are all tied together. When we do not understand our dignity from God we see ourselves as animals who fight for ourselves and not the good of others.

Can Chinese, blacks, whites, etc. be dignified? Sure, but not in today's version of cultural mixing. It never worked and to imagine that a melting pot has resulting a bettering of society one would need to be blind. There is nothing wrong with a Pole being a Pole, with a Mexican upholding family tradition, etc. as long as it is dignified for the bettering of society. Anyone who thinks the blending of rap, rock, etc. have been beneficial to our society does not realize how far this country has lost its soul.

This country is so lost it would take more than a politician to fix it, it would take the re-examination of conscience of what makes us best as a people, our heritage of a Christian nation, and a re-evaluation if we are living up to that heritage. If not all the pandering of "collectivism" and "intolerance" rings hollow because the supposed ideals that are masqueraded as virtuous are nothing more than a blind following of nothingness without goals or ideals.

[max]

putting the European man out of business is part of the globalist zionist agends. The Zionists view European man as the chief competitor of their race

[JosephTheLibertarian]

putting the European man out of business is part of the globalist zionist agends. The Zionists view European man as the chief competitor of their race

lol. Yeah, that's why jews control their money supply.

[katao]

Unfortunately many of you are attacking liberatim without thinking of what this country used to be. You cannot tell me that you could watch a 40's or 50's classic movie and tell me the culture took a huge step backwards with our mesh of cultures becomes a non-culture of barbarism. It is a religion without God, a country without it's Christianity, a secularism which preaches against religion while forming it's own creeds of intolerance. The culture of the 40's and 50's is what helped get us in this mess and people lack the common sense to understand common decency in society.

Am I happy we have Yao Ming and Will Smith as successful in this country? Sure, but not at the price we are paying. The terms "yo" "later" and other ridiculous ways of expressions are the tip of the iceberg of undignified speech that is passed off as justifiable without realizing that culture is meant to form dignity of the individual person. The clothes we wear, the words we speak, and the manners that we express ourselves reflect a loss of dignity for ourselves. Abortion and the increase of parental responsibility along with the explosion of depression, suicide, and parental abuse are all tied together. When we do not understand our dignity from God we see ourselves as animals who fight for ourselves and not the good of others.

Can Chinese, blacks, whites, etc. be dignified? Sure, but not in today's version of cultural mixing. It never worked and to imagine that a melting pot has resulting a bettering of society one would need to be blind. There is nothing wrong with a Pole being a Pole, with a Mexican upholding family tradition, etc. as long as it is dignified for the bettering of society. Anyone who thinks the blending of rap, rock, etc. have been beneficial to our society does not realize how far this country has lost its soul.

This country is so lost it would take more than a politician to fix it, it would take the re-examination of conscience of what makes us best as a people, our heritage of a Christian nation, and a re-evaluation if we are living up to that heritage. If not all the pandering of "collectivism" and "intolerance" rings hollow because the supposed ideals that are masqueraded as virtuous are nothing more than a blind following of nothingness without goals or ideals.


But can you see that these are the exact same arguments that every generation of Americans has used to complain about legal immigration - from Poland, from Germany, and so forth.

The America of the 40's you revere was already a melting pot. And the America of the 1800's was a melting pot. And the American at the time of the founding was a melting pot. There was no pure American culture to be ruined! (except perhaps, the Native American culture)

And please don't blame immigration for the secularization of our society. Hispanics, in general, are more Christian than the U.S. population they are joining. Secularization is a worldwide trend that has far different roots.

Don't be afraid.

[katao]

The biggest problem I have with illegal immigration is concerns over American sovereignty and security.



That is something I think we can all agree on.

[saku39]

Sorry, but changing the the type size doesn't make your argument any better.

LOL. ;)

Here's a question - why is it 99.9% "mexican-americans" that are always arguing on message boards for more immigration and getting offended when people don't agree with them.

You are confused. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm not arguing for more immigration. What I am arguing is that immigration and multi-culturalism are not the cause of our problems.

My argument is sound. The argument is that immigrants have made this country better.

Where did you get the 99.9% figure? Do you have a source?


I've never seen, heard or read these people make a similar argument - Chinese, East Indian, Russian or other Eastern European, etc. - you get the idea.

Again you are under the impression that I am asking for open borders, open only to Mexicans-- which is completely incorrect. I'm not advocating open borders at all. I am saying immigrants and different cultures contribute to society.

I want to state that most the immigrants I know are asians from India, Taiwan, Hong Kong, the Philipines, and Thailand. Brazilians, mexicans and Colombians are the minority. There is one common thread-- they came here because they believed living here was way more condusive to being successful than in their country of origin. Probably half are citizens or will be citizens within a few years. They all speak english well, albeit with accents.


It would probably be too politically incorrect to say the actual reason.

Please humor us, what is the "real" reason?


Even on the Ron Paul board - lots of "mexican-americans" showing up lately getting excited about stopping illegal immigration.

Maybe you're on the wrong board.

Have an illegally day. :D

I am without a doubt on the right board.

My problem with illegal immigration are the anchor babies, medical care that is given away on my tax money, and the general lack of respect for the law. As Dr Paul said: "Do away with the welfare state, and this notion of illegals being a huge burden disappears." I agree with that. The end birth-right citizenship in addition to the end of the abuse of services meant for citizens will be an enourmous help.

Don't mis-construe what I wasn saying about the benefits of legal immigration and different cultures with the problems of illegal mexicans.

[mikelovesgod]

But can you see that these are the exact same arguments that every generation of Americans has used to complain about legal immigration - from Poland, from Germany, and so forth.

The America of the 40's you revere was already a melting pot. And the America of the 1800's was a melting pot. And the American at the time of the founding was a melting pot. There was no pure American culture to be ruined! (except perhaps, the Native American culture)

And please don't blame immigration for the secularization of our society. Hispanics, in general, are more Christian than the U.S. population they are joining. Secularization is a worldwide trend that has far different roots.

Don't be afraid.

Just a reality. People didn't fear Poles or Germans dressing immodestly, influencing youth with barbaric music, or any such non-sense. The arguments used back then were vastly different, and they were not on cultural grounds. The clothes, music, entertainment, education, and most social venues are not what they used to be. NYC was a safe place on a subway at midnight any day of the week back in the 40's (my grandparents were raised there).

Next, I said the 40's were part of the problem and I never revered them. My point was that watching a movie from the 40's shows how far south our culture is gone. I don't fear the future, I fear now. I fear a country when people live in terror of their neighbors because of the explosion of violence over the last 50 years. Schools and universities brainwash people into believing absolute falsehoods.

Here's an example (because I'm 30 now)... in the late 80's rap was introduced as an innocuous music that was funny and innocent (Will Smith) and then immediately turned into groups like NWA shortly it was considered mainstream. Bathing suits became bikinis, which became anything goes in public except nudity. This is just the nature of a fallen world that fails to grasp dignity. I know you don't understand it, but when the world completely collapses from within it will be too late for you to understand because I'm considered a dinosaur intellectually.

I never said there was uniformity in culture in the US, but there is an attempt to do so now at the expense of truth and dignity. Please read my previous post with more clarity. It seems you misunderstood what I said.

This is the reality we are living in. Either you don't see the problem (which may be true), or you are part of the problem which you don't see either. There is much to fear, as fear is healthy when it is integrated in the whole scheme of life.

[saku39]

Unfortunately many of you are attacking liberatim without thinking of what this country used to be. You cannot tell me that you could watch a 40's or 50's classic movie and tell me the culture took a huge step backwards with our mesh of cultures becomes a non-culture of barbarism.

This country used to be heaven, but immigrants, different cultures and new ideas ruined it? I disagree. If we were better off, it was because we hadn't become the controlling oil sucking global empire we are now.

Movies of 40's and 50's are hagiographic at best, just like the TV of that time. To assume that just because they've airbrushed out the courser elements of society doesn't mean it was a better time. Cursing, alcoholism, heroin addiction, marijuana, spousal violence, prostitution, street crime, gangs, lung cancer, government graft, child abuse, segregation, and any sexual activity didn't exist because it wasn't in the movies?

Call me a non-cultural barbarian, but I prefer more current music, television and movies. I don't think this is a step back-- I see it as a step forward.


It is a religion without God, a country without it's Christianity, a secularism which preaches against religion while forming it's own creeds of intolerance. The culture of the 40's and 50's is what helped get us in this mess and people lack the common sense to understand common decency in society.

Religion does not automatically equal decency, ethics or goodness. Because of that I don't see this as a religious problem.

But you are correct about secularism sometimes being intolerant. That is one of the flaws in the secular movement.

What do you mean common decency? I think it's safe to assume we all think murder, drug use, rioting, gang warfare, violence, pedophiles, street crime, casual sex, etc is a bad thing. You definition of what common decency is what I'm asking for because I don't understand what you mean.


Am I happy we have Yao Ming and Will Smith as successful in this country? Sure, but not at the price we are paying. The terms "yo" "later" and other ridiculous ways of expressions are the tip of the iceberg of undignified speech that is passed off as justifiable without realizing that culture is meant to form dignity of the individual person. The clothes we wear, the words we speak, and the manners that we express ourselves reflect a loss of dignity for ourselves.

Culture is not meant to form the dignity of anything. It is way of doing things, and a way of thinking about things, nothing more.

What you're talking about-- I don't think it matters much. So what people say "yo" or "later." That's their perogative. If a guy wants to wear tight leather jeans and a ripped shirt, so what?

It's been my experience that when you want to be sure most people will respect you and you want to be sure that you'll have a good high paying job: you get a haircut, shave, put on a pressed suit, have good handwriting, speak in complete sentences, and don't curse. If people don't want to do this, then that's their problem. But does that mean they don't have any dignity if they don't want to play dress up?


Abortion and the increase of parental responsibility along with the explosion of depression, suicide, and parental abuse are all tied together. When we do not understand our dignity from God we see ourselves as animals who fight for ourselves and not the good of others.

Abortion, the increase of parental responsibility, the explosion of depression, suicide, parental abuse, etc are all tied together. . Ok, I can see that. But am I to infer that your opinion is that we've gone down the drain and multi-culturalism is part of the cause?

I also have to repeat that I don't see this as a religious problem.


Can Chinese, blacks, whites, etc. be dignified? Sure, but not in today's version of cultural mixing. It never worked and to imagine that a melting pot has resulting a bettering of society one would need to be blind. There is nothing wrong with a Pole being a Pole, with a Mexican upholding family tradition, etc. as long as it is dignified for the bettering of society. Anyone who thinks the blending of rap, rock, etc. have been beneficial to our society does not realize how far this country has lost its soul.

By your definition, I am blind. I am not blind.

The concept of a melting pot works just fine so long as people accept/respect differences.

You are correct that there is nothing wrong with a Pole being a pole, a Thai being a Thai or whatever. But there is also nothing wrong with the blending of cultures. In fact, new ideas from different places only make us better as a people. For example, some of Dr Paul's economic principals come from an Austrian Jew named Ludwig von Mises, does this make him sullied or better? I think the latter.

I find culture that's mashed up and cross-pollinated is more interesting and better than the previous interation. I think it's important to remember in the end it's just a symbol or a tool for the times. It's never permanent. Cultures and people that stay the same and do not accept or adapt to change, die out.


This country is so lost it would take more than a politician to fix it, it would take the re-examination of conscience of what makes us best as a people, our heritage of a Christian nation, and a re-evaluation if we are living up to that heritage. If not all the pandering of "collectivism" and "intolerance" rings hollow because the supposed ideals that are masqueraded as virtuous are nothing more than a blind following of nothingness without goals or ideals.

I agree that it takes more than a politician to fix everything. That's why we're all important. Whatever happens with Dr Paul in the future, I will be committed to supporting, both financial and otherwise, the ideals of personal liberty and capitalism. I am sure I'm not the only one here that is going to stop after this campaign. There will be other organizations, other leaders, other political candidates. This is just a beginning.

Again, I don't believe this is a religious argument or problem. As for the blind following of nothingness without goals and ideals, who does this? I know no one that matches that description. Just because somebody else's goals and ideals don't match yours doesn't mean they're wrong. It just means they're different.

[ChooseLiberty]

Do you consider yourself "mexican-american"?





Where did you get the 99.9% figure? Do you have a source?

[ChooseLiberty]

SPAINISH? LOL


What? Spanish is just relating to the romance language, and to people from Spainish descent. Yes, they're "caucasian."

[apropos]

The concept of a melting pot works just fine so long as people accept/respect differences.

The problem is that the melting pot idea no longer exists in this country. Multiculturalism dictates that assimilation is an imperialistic and oppressive notion.

You can have a melting pot or multiculturalism...you can't have both.

[mikelovesgod]

[COLOR="Navy"]Movies of 40's and 50's are hagiographic at best, just like the TV of that time. To assume that just because they've airbrushed out the courser elements of society doesn't mean it was a better time. Cursing, alcoholism, heroin addiction, marijuana, spousal violence, prostitution, street crime, gangs, lung cancer, government graft, child abuse, segregation, and any sexual activity didn't exist because it wasn't in the movies?

Hagiographic is not accurate, but overly sweet and nice. My point was how people dressed, I have never once said the 40's were a time to emulate, but somehow that hasn't permeated your comprehension. I was talking about external dignified actions.


Call me a non-cultural barbarian, but I prefer more current music, television and movies. I don't think this is a step back-- I see it as a step forward.

You are because current music isn't anything more than barbarism.



Religion does not automatically equal decency, ethics or goodness. Because of that I don't see this as a religious problem.

I never said that, what I equated was Christianity as the grounds for decency, not watered down Christianity as most practice it, which appears to most as hypocrisy, but the actual teachings of Christ and His Church.


But you are correct about secularism sometimes being intolerant. That is one of the flaws in the secular movement.

Secularism as a whole is a flaw. It lacks its constituent grounds to make any statement about humanity. Man is not dignified by being a man, animals don't have rights like humans do, yet they basically equate the two.


What do you mean common decency? I think it's safe to assume we all think murder, drug use, rioting, gang warfare, violence, pedophiles, street crime, casual sex, etc is a bad thing. You definition of what common decency is what I'm asking for because I don't understand what you mean.

Immodest clothing, common use of blasphemy, lack of respect of neighbor, lack of teliological understanding of life, and how that relates to oneself and neighbor.



Culture is not meant to form the dignity of anything. It is way of doing things, and a way of thinking about things, nothing more.

What you're talking about-- I don't think it matters much. So what people say "yo" or "later." That's their perogative. If a guy wants to wear tight leather jeans and a ripped shirt, so what?

It means more than you realize and that's the problem between us. You don't understand the meaning of life. Culture forms or deforms society. It's just that simple. When you dress trashy you tend to think trashy, when you put on a suit or nice dress (depending on your sex) you act more dignified. When women and men dress in androgynous ways, act unbecoming of their nature as a child of God, it makes a big deal to the world, but yes, as you mention later you are blind to this connection.


It's been my experience that when you want to be sure most people will respect you and you want to be sure that you'll have a good high paying job: you get a haircut, shave, put on a pressed suit, have good handwriting, speak in complete sentences, and don't curse. If people don't want to do this, then that's their problem. But does that mean they don't have any dignity if they don't want to play dress up?

Do you see how you downplay this so quickly? It's a symptom of not realizing the effects of the non-culture of today, a pseudo-tribalism with barbarism as a creed.



Abortion, the increase of parental responsibility, the explosion of depression, suicide, parental abuse, etc are all tied together. . Ok, I can see that. But am I to infer that your opinion is that we've gone down the drain and multi-culturalism is part of the cause?

Precisely the opposite. We are not multi-cultural, we are becoming devoid of culture into a melting pot of culture. I want blacks to have black culture (and rap isn't part of it), I want Poles to have Polish culture, I want Mexicans to have dia de los mortos, and all that fun stuff. That lack of culture is the cause, and the blending of cultures into lowest common denominator is the problem.


I also have to repeat that I don't see this as a religious problem.

That's because you don't understand what a religion is. You confuse institutionalized religion with religion itself. This is the systematic of modern education. Anytime a group of people have a view of how society should be run it is a religion. This is the philological and etymological meaning of religion.



By your definition, I am blind. I am not blind.

That's the problem friend, I doubt you seriously have studied teliological principles in minor and major logic and metaphysics. Most people consider themselves logical without knowing any principles of logic (e.g. that universal negations do not increase knowledge, but are only extensions of premises in individuals), that man has a soul created by God which is easily demonstrative and factual, and that people who say such things like I did can't "prove it". Unless you answer "what is man" you cannot answer how man is to live, how to act, and why he exists.


The concept of a melting pot works just fine so long as people accept/respect differences.

Can you show a melting pot that worked in history? What makes you think this one will when it's never happened?


You are correct that there is nothing wrong with a Pole being a pole, a Thai being a Thai or whatever. But there is also nothing wrong with the blending of cultures.

Then you lack a true anthropological understanding of history. It's never happened, and in this country it's not working either.


In fact, new ideas from different places only make us better as a people. For example, some of Dr Paul's economic principals come from an Austrian Jew named Ludwig von Mises, does this make him sullied or better? I think the latter.

Ideas do not make a culture, although they can form it. I doubt a southern protestant like Paul could sit through Passover at a Mises residence and actually enjoy himself and vice versa. Tolerate yes, but mix and blend no.


I find culture that's mashed up and cross-pollinated is more interesting and better than the previous interation. I think it's important to remember in the end it's just a symbol or a tool for the times. It's never permanent. Cultures and people that stay the same and do not accept or adapt to change, die out.

That's not true. What dies is soul of the country, not the culture. I'm Italian and we have traditions that stem from 1,000's of years back. Cultures do not need to change or die, that's really an economic, political and military statement, not a cultural one. This probably won't shock you coming from myself but the idea that a Holy Roman Emperor starting with Charlemagne to the last Austrian Holy Roman Emperor 70 years ago with Church-State relations was a much better time economically and culturally for the most part in relation to what we have today. They upheld culture and tradition for over a 1,000 years and it didn't die off, it was fought off with aggression and greed.

Also, look at Europe when it was prospering 80 years ago before the world wars. They all had distinct cultures but they understood you couldn't blend them without destroying their own. They lived in relative peace, and they understood this because they have been existing for a 1,000 years, not 200 like this country. The US experiment is over, it failed. It's only a matter of time before you'll wish you lived somewhere else.


I agree that it takes more than a politician to fix everything. That's why we're all important. Whatever happens with Dr Paul in the future, I will be committed to supporting, both financial and otherwise, the ideals of personal liberty and capitalism.

And so will I! :)


I am sure I'm not the only one here that is going to stop after this campaign. There will be other organizations, other leaders, other political candidates. This is just a beginning.

I agree, but our principles are different fundamentally. I support Ron Paul because he allows me to be free under the federal government, but I can tell you that the Constitution is fundamentally flawed and so will this country remain.


Again, I don't believe this is a religious argument or problem. As for the blind following of nothingness without goals and ideals, who does this? I know no one that matches that description. Just because somebody else's goals and ideals don't match yours doesn't mean they're wrong. It just means they're different.

Sometimes different must be understood in it's own context of right and wrong. That's all I'm saying. God bless

[apropos]

studied teliological principles in minor and major logic and metaphysics.

Some fascinating posts in this thread.

Do you have any recommended reading on this subject?

[mikelovesgod]

The best books on the subject is Msgr. Paul Glenn (deceased) because they are very easy to read. He makes difficult subjects very easy. It's very much like reading something you already knew but didn't know how to articulate it because logic is logical, and it's explanations are easy to understand. He wrote a series, but the pertinent books to his series are:

Ontology (specialized Metaphysics)
Dialectics (minor logic i.e. laws of thinking logically broken down in the traditional A/E/I/O form of universal affirmation-A, specific affirmation-E, universal negation-I, specific negation-O)
Criteriology (major logic or how we apprehend and reason)

The books are out of print and may be difficult to find, but well worth finding. There is more to the series but those are the pertinent books.

My overall point is that people do not understand transcendental properties associated with "being", and how good and evil relate to society as objective facts. A simple point is that evil has no positive principles to life, it is simple the negation of good. One cannot learn from evil as its contrary "good" is the affirmation of being. An example would be murder.

I hope that helps.

[stevedasbach]

Elect Ron Paul, re-establish America's commitment to our founding principles, and we'll see immigrants embracing those principles. We can't expect newcomers to embrace those principles as long as they are virtually invisible in our government.

[hmurchison]

Elect Ron Paul, re-establish America's commitment to our founding principles, and we'll see immigrants embracing those principles. We can't expect newcomers to embrace those principles as long as they are virtually invisible in our government.

+1

How the hell are Immigrants supposed to understand the laws when we don't even make use of the BoR and Constitution appropriately. Excellent point.

[ChooseLiberty]

Nicely put.

:D





Do you see how you downplay this so quickly? It's a symptom of not realizing the effects of the non-culture of today, a pseudo-tribalism with barbarism as a creed.

[drednot]

....
Here's a question - why is it 99.9% "mexican-americans" that are always arguing on message boards for more immigration and getting offended when people don't agree with them.

I've never seen, heard or read these people make a similar argument - Chinese, East Indian, Russian or other Eastern European, etc. - you get the idea.
....

How long have your ancestors been in America?

I can trace my (anglo) ancestry back to pre-Revolutionary days on both sides of my family.

[drednot]

putting the European man out of business is part of the globalist zionist agends. The Zionists view European man as the chief competitor of their race

Good thing we have European Men in the Clinton and Bush family to save us from the race of Mises, Rothbard, Freidman, Rand and most of the Austrian School of Economics. :rolleyes:

[ChooseLiberty]

Wow. Congratulations. That's a fine achievement.

Do you have a point?

LOL.

(Is it Ron Paul forum day at Mrs. Smith's 6th grade class?)



to pre-Revolutionary days on both sides of my family.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

SPAINISH? LOL

Spanish*. What, no one can make a typo? Asshole.

[drednot]

Wow. Congratulations. That's a fine achievement.

Do you have a point?
....

Yeah, my point is about your point.



... - why is it 99.9% "mexican-americans" that are always arguing on message boards for more immigration....

[ChooseLiberty]

You can't make a typo when you want to play grammar police.

Asshat.

LOL.


Spanish*. What, no one can make a typo? Asshole.

[Dinomyte]

I'm going to have to say my thoughts echo Saku's on this issue. I'm not a great writer/speaker but here's my opinions anyway.

I'm Canadian, but of Korean descent. 2nd generation. I speak English fluently, and my Korean is so bad that I probably embarrass my parents a bit when I try to speak my broken Korean to my grandparents.

Do I feel that liberatim is arguing that my parents somehow helped contribute to the downfall of Canadian society/values? And that they're at fault for wanting to come to Canada for the opportunity to raise their children in a more free society? Yes, I do.

I could be totally misinterpreting what he said, but he is coming across as someone who is blaming the decline of society on people such as my parents. Would he argue against the Irish as well? I know that they were once discriminated against in the U.S, but I'd wonder if liberatim considers them beneficial to the US as they are Caucasian?

A few of you are coming across as... for the lack of a better word (and avoiding another word), isolationist. Just because you hate rap, doesn't mean that it's the other cultures have made things become more "barbaric".

What is the lack of "American" culture that brought in the fall of the suit and dress, and brought in the wave of hedonistic debauchery of the mini-skirt and lo-rise jeans?

I'm probably taking your words and exaggerating them a bit, but seriously multiculturalism isn't the cause of this "downfall" of society. Maybe it's societies lack of effort/caring to adhere to the old values of yesteryear, but to put the blame on other societies is a cop-out in my opinion.

Blah... I probably made little sense to you people as I tend to ramble...

I'll end my post on a happier note. I wish there were more politicians like Ron Paul. While I may not agree with all his ideas, I admire him for his honesty and his genuine goals to make his country a better place. If more Canadian politicians were like him, I'd probably be interested in Canadian politics.

[saku39]

Hagiographic is not accurate, but overly sweet and nice. My point was how people dressed, I have never once said the 40's were a time to emulate, but somehow that hasn't permeated your comprehension. I was talking about external dignified actions.

Dignified actions? Please explain.


You are because current music isn't anything more than barbarism.

What you see as barbarism is just entertainment in progress. You only want to see it as barbarism because you find it objectionable. Ask yourself, why don't these acts seem to last more than a couple years? They tend to die off in popularity. Because people grow up and the next generation wants something unique to themselves.


I never said that, what I equated was Christianity as the grounds for decency, not watered down Christianity as most practice it, which appears to most as hypocrisy, but the actual teachings of Christ and His Church.

Christianity is not grounds for decency anymore than any other religion.

Also, I have found that if there are christian people out there that are committing indecent acts, suddenly the flock will be quick to say, "well, they weren't real christians."

I have been snubbed by as many people claiming to be Christians as people that weren't. On the same token, I've been treated well by many people claiming to be Christians as people that weren't. What this means is that Christians don't have the market cornered on goodness or evil.


Secularism as a whole is a flaw. It lacks its constituent grounds to make any statement about humanity. Man is not dignified by being a man, animals don't have rights like humans do, yet they basically equate the two.

Secularism is not perfect, just like christianity is not perfect. And secularism has its flaws, sure, but as a whole is not flawed. I don't see Christianity as a whole flawed either.

Part of the problem is this idea that somehow people can't be ethical or moral without christianity. That's completely untrue. You may consider it heresy, but that doesn't make what I'm saying any less correct. Mohandas Gandhi, with all his flaws, was ethically and morally correct when he lead a non-violent moment for freedom and equality. But he wasn't Christian, he was Hindu. By your words he must be morally bankrupt because he wasn't Christian.

Most scientists are secularists. Most of the technology and advances in the past 100 years have come from these secular scientists. Cars, VCRs, laser surgery, artificial hearts, organ transplants, cancer treaments, airplanes, computers, and the internet have all been advanced through secular means.

I am not and have never equated animals and humans. No one with any sense would do that. Are you referring to the environmentalist lunatics that believe all life, regardless of form is equal?


Immodest clothing, common use of blasphemy, lack of respect of neighbor, lack of teliological understanding of life, and how that relates to oneself and neighbor.

You're only speaking about youth culture. Most of the behavior you're describing disappears after people reach adulthood. I've never seen adults act the way you're describing. (Unless they are on the TV show COPS, of course.)

I had friends that did drugs, drank, and cursed. When they grew up they realized it was a waste of time. They don't go around wearing Black Flag Tshirts and spiked wristbands, yelling about authority nowadays because they know it was just a stupid game, interesting only to immature kids. If you check in on them now, they are married, have houses, have children, and are responsible members of society.


It means more than you realize and that's the problem between us. You don't understand the meaning of life.

I understand the meaning of life. You might not agree with my conclusions, but that doesn't make me stupid or wrong.


Culture forms or deforms society. It's just that simple. When you dress trashy you tend to think trashy, when you put on a suit or nice dress (depending on your sex) you act more dignified. When women and men dress in androgynous ways, act unbecoming of their nature as a child of God, it makes a big deal to the world, but yes, as you mention later you are blind to this connection.

Dressing trashy makes you think trashy? I disagree. The clothes don't make the man.

If what you're saying is true, anybody that dressed nicely would be a good person. I know that's not true. Andrew Fastow, an evil destroyer of lives, dressed nicely-- is he a better person for it? Oliver O'Grady was a priest, he had to dress nice for his parishioners, by your logic he should have been beyond evil but he wasn't.

Based on facts and my personal experience, I don't agree with you. Bad people will be bad people not matter how you dress them up.

Men and women dress in androugynous ways? Where are you seeing this? I didn't see this when I lived in Ohio, when I lived in Texas, when I was in Michigan, and I don't see it now in California. . . Unless I somehow end up in West Hollywood. (That was a joke. Please laugh. :) )


Do you see how you downplay this so quickly? It's a symptom of not realizing the effects of the non-culture of today, a pseudo-tribalism with barbarism as a creed.

I am downplaying nothing. You are calling me barbaric and tribalistic. But I am giving you examples that you are not.


Precisely the opposite. We are not multi-cultural, we are becoming devoid of culture into a melting pot of culture. I want blacks to have black culture (and rap isn't part of it), I want Poles to have Polish culture, I want Mexicans to have dia de los mortos, and all that fun stuff. That lack of culture is the cause, and the blending of cultures into lowest common denominator is the problem.

You are under the impression that I am calling for some homogenous monoculture that has lots all it's uniqueness. I am not. But I also don't want blacks, poles, mexicans, chinese to be kept in separate little boxes. It limits them and it limits us. What I am arguing is that different cultures will and should mix, and there is no problem with that. In fact, better things come from mixing ideas, just look at history.

Also, there will never be a homogenous culture. The idea that this could happen is nonsense. Human beings are the most adaptable form of life on this planet. As both individuals and as groups we've had to change to survive. The idea that somehow all of this will stop and we'll all become the same won't happen. The world doesn't stop moving, people don't stop moving. Cultures mixing won't change a thing. The end result won't be a single mono-culture, but many many different hybrid cultures.

Lack of culture? There is no lack of culture. There's just a bunch of mixed hybrid cultures you find objectionable. and because you find it objectionable, you say it's not culture.


That's because you don't understand what a religion is. You confuse institutionalized religion with religion itself. This is the systematic of modern education. Anytime a group of people have a view of how society should be run it is a religion. This is the philological and etymological meaning of religion.

So that's your argument? Because I hold a set of beliefs it is religion, therefore religion is part of the problem? That's just semantics. No sir, let me define what I see as religion. Institutionalized or not, religion is systematized belief and the worship of a deity or deities.

I don't think bringing religion into an argument makes it somehow better. People have been arguing over deities since the beginning of time. If you can't answer a question using logic without bringing in a deity, I and a great many people see it as a failure.


That's the problem friend, I doubt you seriously have studied teliological principles in minor and major logic and metaphysics. Most people consider themselves logical without knowing any principles of logic (e.g. that universal negations do not increase knowledge, but are only extensions of premises in individuals), that man has a soul created by God which is easily demonstrative and factual, and that people who say such things like I did can't "prove it". Unless you answer "what is man" you cannot answer how man is to live, how to act, and why he exists.

I understand logic just fine, thank you.

Maybe I did not make myself clear. You can't prove or disprove God. But I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that using logic, you can give examples and evidence to give credit to your claims.

You shouldn't need God to articulate why my position of multi-culturalism is wrong.


Can you show a melting pot that worked in history? What makes you think this one will when it's never happened?

I realize you disagree but we're living in one right now and while it's not without problems, it works fine.

It would work even better without stupid polarizating political factions. Like say, democrats instituting racial quotas and affirmative action and republicans catering to oil companies and the mililtary industrial complex.

Please explain why you think we're not living in one now.


Then you lack a true anthropological understanding of history. It's never happened, and in this country it's not working either.

I understand history just fine. Your conclusions are just different than mine. My argument is sound.


Ideas do not make a culture, although they can form it.

Ideas and culture go hand and hand.


I doubt a southern protestant like Paul could sit through Passover at a Mises residence and actually enjoy himself and vice versa. Tolerate yes, but mix and blend no.

I used Dr Paul as an example because of his economic principles which came from Mises. As far as Dr Paul spending passover at the Mises, I couldn't imagine the situation because I don't know enough of about either to say what either could enjoy or tolerate.

The best example I can think of for a similar situation are 2 friends of mine. One is an white atheist, the other a very devout black baptist. Since both were teenagers, the baptist would invite the atheist to church functions. Over the years, the atheist has been there for several functions including baptisms and he's had a great time. They've been friends for over 16 years. There is no arguing/condemnations to hell/discussion of evolution, etc because both accept that they can't change the other's viewpoint. Instead they focus on what they have in common.

Does this mean that this should be the model for everybody? No. Does this mean that everyone must act the same way? No. What it means is that 2 people from 2 different "tribes" can co-exist, enjoy each other's company and maybe even learn from each other.


I'm Italian and we have traditions that stem from 1,000's of years back. Cultures do not need to change or die, that's really an economic, political and military statement, not a cultural one.

This is not true. Change is inevitable and as it is necessary. Look at the culture in Japan. Or China. They've had to change.


This probably won't shock you coming from myself but the idea that a Holy Roman Emperor starting with Charlemagne to the last Austrian Holy Roman Emperor 70 years ago with Church-State relations was a much better time economically and culturally for the most part in relation to what we have today. They upheld culture and tradition for over a 1,000 years and it didn't die off, it was fought off with aggression and greed.

Let me understand this: you are arguing for a return of monarchy and feudalism? Please explain.

And they did die off because they didn't adapt to change.


Also, look at Europe when it was prospering 80 years ago before the world wars. They all had distinct cultures but they understood you couldn't blend them without destroying their own. They lived in relative peace, and they understood this because they have been existing for a 1,000 years, not 200 like this country.

Europe did not live in peace. There were the crusades, the 100 years war, the Italian wars, the 30 years war, the Great North war, the Napoleonic wars, the Prussian wars.

This was why Washington had said, "No foreign entanglements and no alliances" He knew, through the historical record of Europe that was the pathway to war. (Just like alliances and entanglements like NATO, the UN, WTO, and IMF are today.)


The US experiment is over, it failed.

This sounds like something a islamofascist would say. I think I've heard this somewhere. The argument is that because the US is not based on Sharia law, it is a failure. I have to find a source for this. Maybe I have misunderstood you, because as it stands now, it bothers me that you would say this. Please tell me I've misunderstood because my conclusion about your words are disturbing to me.


I agree, but our principles are different fundamentally. I support Ron Paul because he allows me to be free under the federal government, but I can tell you that the Constitution is fundamentally flawed and so will this country remain.

How is the constitution flawed? I don't disagree with you, I just want your opinion.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

You can't make a typo when you want to play grammar police.

Asshat.

LOL.

Go suck off your CFR buddies, troll.

[literatim]

Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other. -John Adams


How can you not recognize the contributions of any of the people I mentioned? Writers, Architects, computer programmers, economists, sports figures, not to mention the thousands of small business, restaurant and shop owners. To say they have ruined America is just wacko when it's not even close to the case.

Why do I need to? The question always remains, does the contributions out weigh the detriments? You can't expect it to not have an effect. It is like a slow poison, slowly corrupting the culture.


To answer your question-- yes, I probably will leave if I feel I can't live the way I choose.

Reminds me of locusts. Move in when everything is good and leave after its been made desolate.


First off, stop being so paranoid. Things are bad, but the US under dictatorship? I don't see it happening. (Although I'm sure there are some on this board that will state we're already at that point.)

If you don't see the signs of an impending dictatorship, then you really do have your head in the sand.


Secondly, AIPAC and the neo-cons just act in concert due to a confluence of interests. Acting as if AIPAC runs the government is foolish.

AIPAC is the second largest PAC behind AARP and AARP has no interest in foreign affairs. It is a foreign entity in our country with a lot of political power. You are outright ignoring the obvious foreign threat.


Third, what does it matter where communism came from? It's an evil system irregardless of origin. Your argument that foreign influences and different cultures are harmful is wrong.

First you ask why does it matter where communism came from then you say that the idea that different cultures are harmful is wrong. Yet, communism in itself is a reflection of a foreign culture.


By your logic, I can deduce "because it's foreign it's bad." For example, Japan makes cheap fuel efficient cars. They are foreign, are they evil? Why? Because they're providing a product our own companies can't match? Or consider their production system. People around the world try to copy their extremely efficient system of manufacturing, called the Toyota Production System. But, oh no, because it's a foreign idea-- It must be bad and they are evil for providing well made products at a cheaper price.

There is a large difference between trading between two countries with different cultures and letting the foreign culture displace our original culture.


What? Multi-culturalism and immigration are the source of our problems? I thought it was the way too big federal government, the federal reserve and the idea of empire and our country's intervention in other countries?

The large federal government didn't just spontaneously appear. It is the people and only the people that create the government. Clearly there is something wrong in our society. The cultural degradation is so bad that we are now in this position. Can you believe that you will ever change the government without first changing the people?


Also, in regards to the talmudic argument in a death penalty case you cited-- it just said they were going to file a brief. So what? You can file briefs and argue all you want, but that doesn't guarantee jack. The court will do its job in the end. Last I checked, the guy you're talking about was executed and the jewish lobbyists lost.

It is one example of a foreign force within our society attempting to distort our culture and government.

Another one.

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=7074


What does the Talmud have to say about legal and moral controversies in modern America?

Plenty, according to the creators of the new Washington-based National Institute for Judaic Law, which opened with a lavish Supreme Court dinner last month.


Seeing yourself as a part of a family and being part of a movement is much different than what you're talking about.

You are advancing this idea of cultural elitism and societal decay. Right now, you are using the argument "collectivism exists everywhere" to justify it.

Collectivism is apart of human nature as is individualism. It isn't about justifying it, it is simply fact.


The bottom line is that your point of view is divisive, wasteful, inefficient, and completely wrong.

Let's all holds hands and sing Kumbya while the building is burning down around us.


Your point has some merit.

But when I look around at anglo-americans since the founding, I see a lot of antipathy toward the founding values. I see labor leaders clamoring for socialism, I see executives seeking protectionism and corporate welfare. I see religious traditionalists urging military adventurism. I see investors demanding bailouts. And worst of all I see large-scale apathy toward these trends.

If we are depending entirely on anglo-americans to preserve the uniquely american ideals, then I think we are certainly in trouble. Immigrants come here for opportunity, sure, but I think most understand that that opportunity didn't arise by chance alone. And they at least have seen how alternate civilizations have failed.

I see corruption on a cultural level from a foreign source.


Good thing we have European Men in the Clinton and Bush family to save us from the race of Mises, Rothbard, Freidman, Rand and most of the Austrian School of Economics. :rolleyes:

Some can always sell their souls to the devil to be successful in this world.

[Tsoman]

In a book I'm reading right now that was written in the 20's, the characters are complaining about how the Norwegians and Swedes were causing a decline in culture. Funny.

[Tsoman]

Oh, I would also like to add this.

People in a lot of other countries blame American influences for the decline of their own culture.

Take that into account.