View Full Version : Waterboarding prevented second 9/11 attack in L.A.
Catatonic
04-22-2009, 11:03 AM
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949
Behold, latest neocon/neolib fap material.
Waterboarding(and by extension, torture) works!
If the CIA says it, it must be true!
He Who Pawns
04-22-2009, 11:27 AM
Well it probably does! If you waterboard a guy 150 times in one month, chances are, yes, he will spill the beans - whatever beans he has. But at what cost to our principles?
Maybe if we minded our own fucking business and didn't keep invading and meddling in other countries, there would be no need for this type of thing in the first place?
FindLiberty
04-22-2009, 11:30 AM
... it only gets UNRELIABLE information, and maybe a good story or two offered up to end the waterboarding and replace it with the peace offered by death/execution.
If they did this to Bill Gates, he'd prbly offer up a wild story about a planned cyber attack on Apple Computer Corp.
And the insanity continues to build...
He Who Pawns
04-22-2009, 11:31 AM
Yeah but if you do it to KSM, that dude actually knows stuff.
rpfan2008
04-22-2009, 11:33 AM
If I were waterboarded I'd have accepted anything that could make it stop, even being an alien.
He Who Pawns
04-22-2009, 11:36 AM
As to whether torture works or not is irrelevant; it ignores the moral issue.
I guarantee if Mr So-And-So knows about X, if I torture his ass long enough, he will more than likely spill the beans on X sooner or later. Assuming has actually has info I want.
Catatonic
04-22-2009, 11:37 AM
If you see neocons faping to this on other boards, just point out that you can easily use their same logic and find a case where gun control saved someone's life, and use the same argument to justify gun grabbing. They'll stfu, at least temporarily.
AuH20
04-22-2009, 11:40 AM
I think there is a place for torture in a Jack Bauer scenario. But the problem here is that there are no clear parameters for its usage. The CIA could deem every plot as catastrophic & break out the most cruel tactics.
JK/SEA
04-22-2009, 11:52 AM
The debate should be framed as..why would you need to torture?...and go from there.
HE WHO PAWNS has it right. In essence, if you torture, you become that what you despise.
its all BS, and none of its good for you...
---George Carlin
why weren't these guys water boarded? Hmmmmmmmm?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html
Brooklyn Red Leg
04-22-2009, 01:52 PM
If you waterboard a guy 150 times in one month, chances are, yes, he will spill the beans - whatever beans he has.
He'll probably admit to killing Jesus Christ himself, being the assassin on the grassy knoll, pissing in Mother Teresa's tea and shitting in Gandhi's hat. Its amazing the information you get out of someone if you torture the shit out of them enough.
BuddyRey
04-22-2009, 01:57 PM
"I don't give a rat's ass if it [torture] helps. We are America...we do not fucking torture!!!"
---Shephard Smith, earlier this afternoon on Freedom Watch! :D
paulim
04-22-2009, 02:31 PM
why weren't these guys water boarded?
Because they had no time. Someone must execute the torture.
itshappening
04-22-2009, 02:35 PM
Beck is defending torture, the information keeps us safe!
he does realize that they will say anything under duress? it's crazy
itshappening
04-22-2009, 02:36 PM
haha Glenn now playing 24.. TORTURE WORKS!
Mini-Me
04-22-2009, 02:47 PM
Beck is defending torture, the information keeps us safe!
he does realize that they will say anything under duress? it's crazy
Sometimes, I wonder if the CIA and the torture memo authors will ALSO say anything under duress. On top of the fact that torture gives faulty information in general and the moral issue makes that irrelevant anyway (thank you, Shephard Smith), I wouldn't doubt it if the entire story was fabricated to cover the torture memo authors' asses...you know, considering they've been under a lot of fire recently, particularly by the ACLU. Sorry, but if you guys are willing to torture, I wouldn't put it past you to lie about torture's "successes" to save your own skins.
He Who Pawns
04-22-2009, 03:00 PM
You guys who are saying "torture doesn't work" are using the wrong argument. Because, actually, it might in some cases. So you are basing your argument on thin ice.
The stronger argument is that morally we are opposed to torture and inhumane treatment. It's the Golden Rule - do unto others as you've have them do unto you. Plus it puts our own service members at risk of torture.
silverhawks
04-22-2009, 03:49 PM
Unbelievable...I cannot believe that I am reading this...its surreal.
CNSNews.com
Unresolved Debate: Does Torture Work?
(http://www.cnsnews.com/public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=47000)
UNRESOLVED DEBATE?
How about this for a resolved debate - torture is IMMORAL and EVIL, and does not belong in a free society that respects and defends rights of the individual!
Catatonic
04-22-2009, 03:52 PM
You guys who are saying "torture doesn't work" are using the wrong argument. Because, actually, it might in some cases. So you are basing your argument on thin ice.
The stronger argument is that morally we are opposed to torture and inhumane treatment. It's the Golden Rule - do unto others as you've have them do unto you. Plus it puts our own service members at risk of torture.
Well, all the neocons that have been touting this on other forums are eating crow as this has been exposed as a fraud.
Anyway, I disagree with you. It may work every once in a while, but for the most part its going to give unreliable information. I'm pretty sure CIA and/or military studies have proven this.
In what scenario can torture ever be reliable? You'll never know when the person is just saying whatever it takes to make the torture stop. You can't even be sure if the guy actually knows anything.
rpfan2008
04-22-2009, 03:52 PM
You guys who are saying "torture doesn't work" are using the wrong argument. Because, actually, it might in some cases.
Actually, carpet nuking Afghanistan and Pakistan will work, too.
silverhawks
04-22-2009, 03:56 PM
And this...
Obama Bans Waterboarding Terrorists, But Pentagon Won't Say If It Still Waterboards Military Trainees (http://www.cnsnews.com/public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=46974)
So we torture our OWN PEOPLE now?
Just when I think government has sunk to a new low, another black and lightless depth beckons.
The memo further stated that waterboarding had a “near 100 percent” effectiveness rate in extracting information from trainees, while no soldiers were harmed physically or psychologically by it.
Remember, this from the government that kicks veterans back to society on a regular basis with PTSD...and seriously suggested that waterboarding "did not cause suffering".
kathy88
04-22-2009, 04:14 PM
I just threw up in my mouth a little. It's a daily occurrence, usually while I'm reading RPF. Hmmmmmmm...... naaaaaa can't be.
Brooklyn Red Leg
04-22-2009, 05:31 PM
So we torture our OWN PEOPLE now?
IINM, its part the SERE training. Its considered necessary for Special Forces training. Been that way since the 70s IIRC.
chadhb
04-22-2009, 06:01 PM
Stop being whiney fing bitches, waterboarding OMG who gives a F. This is as about as relevent as the Abortion issue that has been crammed down our throats. If the left is telling us it's bad and the right telling us it's good, then I can assure you this isn't important.
Liberty Star
04-22-2009, 06:07 PM
Is that any better than terrorists claiming that 9/11 terrorism changed US policies towards Israeli occupation over Palestinians, got son of an African muslim man elected to White house and therefore Terrorism is a "tool" that works?
Cheney seems severly mentally retarted, there may have been some shocks when he used to climb up electric poles for a living before he got his halliburton gig.
mediahasyou
04-22-2009, 06:43 PM
Information is not the problem. People are forgetting that the government knew 911 was going to happen. The government failed to act.
The government is too inefficient to prevent a 911. A DRO would be much more efficient.
I don't have a problem with people in government using torture, violence, or breaking the Constitution, the only reason I'm against it is because they're not honest about it.
emazur
04-22-2009, 08:16 PM
another point of view:
"CIA Ludicrously Claims Torture Prevented Debunked L.A. Terror Plot"
http://www.prisonplanet.com/cia-ludicrously-claims-torture-prevented-debunked-la-terror-plot.html
Bruno
04-22-2009, 08:30 PM
Stop being whiney fing bitches, waterboarding OMG who gives a F. This is as about as relevent as the Abortion issue that has been crammed down our throats. If the left is telling us it's bad and the right telling us it's good, then I can assure you this isn't important.
Uh, but that logic, nothing is important. One side is always saying good, the other side always saying bad.
chadhb
04-22-2009, 09:19 PM
Uh, but that logic, nothing is important. One side is always saying good, the other side always saying bad.
I agree, but in this case I just feel it is pointless. I choose to fight the battles that matter, I can care less about 3 Camel Jockies.
Minarchy4Sale
04-22-2009, 10:38 PM
I think given the choice between being morally responsible for torture, and being dead... I choose being dead.
The question isnt about whether torture is effective or not, the question is WHO ARE WE? Im not very pleased with the answer lately.
Minarchy4Sale
04-22-2009, 10:38 PM
I agree, but in this case I just feel it is pointless. I choose to fight the battles that matter, I can care less about 3 Camel Jockies.
Will you care when they do it to you?
Minarchy4Sale
04-22-2009, 10:40 PM
If you see neocons faping to this on other boards, just point out that you can easily use their same logic and find a case where gun control saved someone's life, and use the same argument to justify gun grabbing. They'll stfu, at least temporarily.
I have found that NEOcons readily embrace hypocrisy.
Minarchy4Sale
04-22-2009, 10:42 PM
Beware. The reason the press is tolerating this debate is that they are contemplating its use on 'domestic' terror suspects.
silverhawks
04-22-2009, 11:10 PM
IINM, its part the SERE training. Its considered necessary for Special Forces training. Been that way since the 70s IIRC.
Yeah, I looked around and found this account (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23220). It's a bit of an eye-opener.
Water-boarding, like many other interrogation techniques, could be torture in the hands of a sadist. But -- as the following article demonstrates -- it can be an effective interrogation technique and an essential tool of training, as it has been for US Navy and Air Force pilots.
When captured you are brought to an initial holding facility. Hands and feet bound and hooded you are thrown into a barbed wire holding cell.
Carefully using a technique of grabbing your shirt at the pockets and wrapping his fists so that his knuckles pressed into the muscles of my breast plate, the instructor flung me across the room karate style and into a corrugated wall. No more questions; around and around the room I flew, a dance which while blind folded and hooded made me feel like “Raggedy Andy” in a tug of war with two bullying kids. Following the first interrogation we were loaded into trucks, bound and hooded, head to who knows were...for the first time real fear starts to set in and you look for inner strength in your heart, training and comrades.
Arriving at the POW Camp I was kept hooded and placed in a small box, 2 feet wide, 3 feet long and maybe 3 feet high. I was left the fetal position, sitting on my butt, stripped nearly naked (just week old BVD’s) and left sealed with your defecation can inside your box. Heat, cold, isolation, no communications, and constant noise, music, propaganda, coupled with verbal abuse by your captors is the norm, 24/7. Every twenty minutes or so the guards come by your box and rattle it, sneaking up and demanding to hear your War Criminal Number (thanks again, Jane, for the classification). No more name, rank or serial number, they want some real answers to real security questions. You agonize in your isolation as your hear other members of your group being pulled out for more “personal one on one interrogation”. Then it’s your turn. Pulled from your box you are again brought in for questioning. If unhappy with your answers or no answers, the “Raggedy Andy” dance began again with vigor in the cold night air.
Then it was time for the dreaded waterboard. What I didn’t know then, but I do now, is that as in all interrogations, both for real world hostile terrorists (non-uniformed combatants) and in S.E.R.E. a highly trained group of doctors, psychologists, interrogators, and strap-in and strap-out rescue teams are always present. My first experience on the “waterboard” was to be laying on my back, on a board with my body at a 30 degree slope, feet in the air, head down, face-up. The straps are all-confining, with the only movement of your body that of the ability to move your head. Slowly water is poured in your face, up your nose, and some in your mouth. The questions from interrogators and amounts of water increase with each unsuccessful response. Soon they have your complete attention as you begin to believe you are going to drown.
Scared, alone, cold and in total lack of control, you learn to “cooperate” to the best of your ability to protect your life. For each person that level of cooperation or resistance is different. You must be tested and trained to know how to respond in the real combat world. Escape was the key to freedom and reward.
Those students escaping would be rewarded with a meal (apple, and PB&J sandwich) was what we had been told by our instructors. On my next journey to interrogation I saw an opportunity to escape. I fled into the woods, naked and cold, and hid. My captors came searching with AK-47’s blazing, and calls to “kill the American War Criminal” in broken English. After an hour of successfully evading, the voices called out in perfect English. “O.K., problem’s over…you escaped, come in for your sandwich.” When I stood up and revealed my position I was met by a crowd of angry enemy guards, “stupid American Criminal”! Back to the Waterboard I went.
This time we went right to the water hose in the face, and a wet towel held tightly on my forehead so that I could not move my head. I had embarrassed my captors and they would now show me that they had total control. The most agonizing and frightful moments are when the wet towel is placed over your nose and mouth and the water hose is placed directly over your mouth. Holding your breath, bucking at the straps, straining to remain conscious, you believe with all your heart that, that, you are going to die.
S.E.R.E. training is not pleasant, but it is critical to properly prepare our most endangered combat forces for the reality of enemy capture. Was I “tortured” by the US military? No. Was I trained in an effort to protect my life and the lives of other American fighting men? Yes! Freedom is not Free, nor does it come without sacrifice. Every good American understands this basic principle of our country and prays for the young men and women who have sacrificed and are out on the front lines protecting us today.
Now, let’s see Congress: Maybe forty or so students per week, let’s say 100 minimum per month, 1,200 per year for over twenty or thirty years? It could be as many as 40,000 students trained in S.E.R.E. and “tortured” at the direction of, and under the watchful eye of the Congressional Majorities on both sides of the aisle. Be careful that the 40,000 of us who you have “tortured” don’t come after you today with tort claims. I heard it pays about $3 million per claim.
Now a question...this soldier says that he wasn't tortured.
Yet waterboarding clearly is torture, and is widely accepted as such (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding).
Read back through the bolded sections - can you agree with him?
I particularly want to point out this train of thought - as a result of being repeatedly waterboarded, and undergoing very similar conditions to what we've seen used at Abu Ghraib, he does not see waterboarding as torture.
Indy4Chng
04-22-2009, 11:38 PM
Well it probably does! If you waterboard a guy 150 times in one month, chances are, yes, he will spill the beans - whatever beans he has. But at what cost to our principles?
Maybe if we minded our own fucking business and didn't keep invading and meddling in other countries, there would be no need for this type of thing in the first place?
Amen to that... but since we do should we do nothing? It is like the immigration argument... technically we should have open borders but that is economic suicide with our welfare state.
Minarchy4Sale
04-23-2009, 12:01 AM
Amen to that... but since we do should we do nothing? It is like the immigration argument... technically we should have open borders but that is economic suicide with our welfare state.
No. We should not have open borders.
chadhb
04-23-2009, 06:14 PM
Will you care when they do it to you?
What does 3 Camel Jockies from Iraq have anything to do with me being Tortured. I mean this is really a stretch.
1000-points-of-fright
04-23-2009, 06:23 PM
Police brutality works too. So does searching people without a warrant. So do secret government death squads.
The effectiveness of torture should not be the issue.
ronpaulhawaii
04-23-2009, 06:47 PM
I've been in two debates on this in the last two day. Had great success on one, still working on the second. Here is the last post I sent:
...If I was an agent, and felt the need to get rough, I would take personal responsibility, in front of god and country. But will never sanction, in any way shape or form, the institutionalization of torture. If I was that agent, and got caught, I would depend on a jury of my peers, but I would never ask the innocent, and ignorant, to risk eternity for my actions.
I repeat, torture is immoral. History is full of similar opinions, to what I see here, being condemned throughout the ages... Torture is a tool of wimps and a bane of civilized society. Those who sanction it are sanctioning the destruction of American principles, hence the destruction of America...
Mark My Words
angelatc
04-23-2009, 07:11 PM
Yeah, I looked around and found this account (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23220). It's a bit of an eye-opener.
I don't think comparing SERE training to actually being tortured is quite an honest comparison.
The psychology behind it is much different.
silverhandorder
04-23-2009, 08:16 PM
I don't know I am not in the intelligence community. What if we have the wrong guy? What if we are given faulty information that leads us to make a mistake?
The other side has valid points. I don't think we are expert to be able to answer these questions. We can speculate.
I have an aversion to to torture. I don't want something like that to be done to me no matter who I am, because of that I would not wish that on some one else.
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