A Christian supporting Paul, and my thoughts on the VV debate

[jmarinara]

At first glance, I had absolutely no interest whatsoever in watching the debate. Why? Well because other than Phyllis Schlafly, I as an ultra-conservative Christian have zero respect for any of the people involved with the thing.

Take Janet Folger for instance, one of the most shameless snakes that parades around conservative Christianity. This is the woman who crammed George Bush down our throats in 2004 after watching him destroy our constitution, drag us into a needless undeclared war, stump for public education, cater to false religions by participating in their worship, cater to the homosexual lobby with appointments and speeches, rub our noses in his immorality by stumping with the likes of Arlen Spector and inviting the likes of Ozzy Osbourne into the White house, and most importantly DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO END THE KILLING OF INNOCENT PRE-BORN CHILDREN.

And this woman, Folger, told us he was a wonderful christian man and we should all rally behind him. Then there's the AFA which is a republican neo-con loving organization designed to do nothing but distract us Christians from the real issues and instead keep us focused on the little ones, all the while telling us they know best, they're smarter than us, and we should do what they say. Snakes, I tell you, SNAKES.

I say I still respect Phyllis Schlafly because at least in part, she's been willing to call the GOP out on the carpet for the complete undermining of our constitution and the hypocracy of saying you have Godly values and then acting worldly in policy. Schlafly is a good woman.

But the big reason why I had no interest in seeing the debate is because I knew what was going to happen. Ron Paul was going to go to the debate, do the right thing and stand up for the Christian Just War theory, the Bible based document of the Constitution, and the Godly idea of small government. . . and no one would care, or notice. I know this because I've been around Christians for a long time now, talking to them about Dr. Paul's ideas, either mentioning him or not mentioning him, and have discovered one thing: Most Christians think that being a Christian is summed up in two basic ideas.


1. Christianity is a special moose club we attend on Sunday's, and that club will continue even after we die. They hold to an intellectual vacant idea of Christianity. When faced with having to think about their faith, and it's implications on every day life, 90% of this group would rather abandon their "faith" than change their ideals.

2. Because of the moronic philosophy in point 1, most Christians care more about what Rush Limbaugh says than what the Bible says. They care more about their own understanding of history, than to actually understand history, and care more about how they'll look to their friends, neighbors and family, then how they'll look to God.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm glad Dr. Paul did well, as usual, but don't expect it to really help him amongst Christians. Two people will rule this arena:

Mike Huckabee (see he's a babtist minister and never fails to remind you of that. He can't be bad, because we've never known a minister to be bad or wrong. . . . right??)

and sadly . .

Mitt Romney (He's spiritual, see!!!! He's a mormon, and I know that we all thought that was cult last year, but this guy has charisma, and as we all know, people in cults have no charisma).

Don't get me wrong, not all Christians are stupid, some actually do think (many of them post on these forums) so not all is lost. But even though Dr. Paul went in with the ideas most resembling Biblical government, 80% of the people listening won't recognize that, and 70% wouldn't care even if they did recognize it.

[barcop]

Even though we disagree on religion and the role our founding fathers meant for it to play within the constitution...

We are both here for the exact same reasons.

Nice post.

[trispear]

Hi, welcome aboard. I'm Gnostic Christian myself -- which differs slightly from mainstream Christianity although most of the concepts are the same.

I think the thing most wrong with the base today is basically a vocal few are allowed to speak for the more moderate majority.

I wonder if the radicalization of segments of American Christianity correlates at all with Islamic Fundamentalism at all - some common root somewhere.

[Prez4TheNet]

Ron Paul was the only person on the stage who was not pandering to the crowd. My respect for the man just went up beyond infinity when I saw his lone NO votes on the ridiculous speed round. You could put a gun to the guys forhead and he still wouldn't surrender his principles.

America has a gift right now, it will be foolish if we ignore Ron Paul. I doubt that I will see a man like Ron Paul in my life time again.

[trispear]

My respect for the man just went up beyond infinity when I saw his lone NO votes on the ridiculous speed round.I wonder how many people's curiosity got piqued or just anger enough that they go check him out on google or something. It may actually help him that he stood out of the crowd - even this one.

Afterall, McCain has been trying to pander to this crowd a lot lately with 0 success because they can see his BS moves for what they are.

[LibertyEagle]

I ran into this today and thought it relevant to this discussion.


"“The real problem with the religious right is that, in the long run, its religious vehicle won’t carry it home. If it ever ended abortion, restored school prayer, outlawed sodomy and banned
pornography, I suspect, most of its followers would simply declare victory and retire. But having accomplished all of that, the Christian right would have done absolutely nothing to strip the federal government of the power it has seized throughout this century, restore a proper understanding and enforcement of the Constitution and of republican government, prevent the inundation of the country by anti-Western immigrants, stop the cultural and racial dispossession of the historic American people, or resist the absorption of the American nation into a multicultural and multiracialist globalist regime.”

That the Christian Right has little regard for federalism (or traditional conservatism), then, isn’t breaking news. What’s changed is that they’re now saying it out loud."

http://www.cdobs.com/our-columns/christian-right-group-likes-thompsonbut/

[crhoades]

I'm not sure if I've seen anyone post it this bluntly but we have to understand that the "Christian Right" is a lobbying group or special interest group like anyone else. They have traded their birthright for a mess of porridge. They have bought into the Statist lie that it is the State that is the messiah - the savior of the world whether it be through the gospel of democracy or education, or healthcare, or fill in the blank.

Paul was speaking truth to power in last nights debate just as much as he was on the floor of Congress during his neoconned speech.

I say this as a conservative Christian pastoral intern and seminary student.

[jmarinara]

Very nice addition Liberty Eagle,

See that is exactly what I mean, those ideas of Federalism, whether you think them Christian or not, are the exact ideas that we Christians should adhere too. Look, I don't mean to be a jerk here, but America is a blessing to Christians. We're free here (like all other religions) to do what we need to do.

We should remember that our brothers in Saudi Arabia and North Korea have considerably harder lives. It should be the goal of every American Christian to protect the American way of life so we don't have to practice our faith in secret as many of our brothers and sisters are forced to do.

[jmarinara]

Even though we disagree on religion and the role our founding fathers meant for it to play within the constitution...

We are both here for the exact same reasons.

Nice post.


Thank you! Nice to have a pleasant conversation. (really)

[Original_Intent]

The four front-runners didn't show because they knew the record would force them to cast some of those "No" votes and they didn't have the guts to go into the lions den and stand on principle.

Of the candidates that did show up - they either blatantly pandered to their questioners, or had no problem showing up because they knew all of their answers were going to be lauded.

Ron Paul knew some of his answers were not going to be popular, but he had the respect to go in and give the people the choice, to say "Look, I stand for this and if that is not what you want that's fine." Everyone else it was more "Oh, this is what you want? Then that's what I am!"

[SWATH]

I have listened to the audio of that debate over and over again (probably six or seven times). Something about it really piqued my interest but I just couldn't zero in on what it was. Then it hit me. Up there on that stage Ron Paul was a shepherd. He was scolding his flock for running astray into dangerous pastures. He was speaking from a position of wisdom and humbled authority while all the sheep were saying the same things over and over as they do. As someone else observed he may have the hand of God himself on his shoulder. THIS MAN MUST BE VICTORIOUS! We have no choice.

[johngr]

If Ron Paul is a shephard what does that make us? Baaa

[Original_Intent]

If Ron Paul is a shephard what does that make us? Baaa

co-shepherds? :D

[Wendi]

The problem with 99.9% of Christians today is they think the government is supposed to "protect" them by enforcing their ideals. They can't seem to comprehend that (a) that's God's job not man, and (b) if the gov't can enforce Christian ideals today, it can enforce another faith tomorrow.

[jmarinara]

if the gov't can enforce Christian ideals today, it can enforce another faith tomorrow.

Well said. . .

Not sure I entirely agree with where this is perhaps going (in that I think that lends itself to a secular society), but I have to admit, well said.

[ladyliberty]

Ron Paul was the only person on the stage who was not pandering to the crowd. My respect for the man just went up beyond infinity when I saw his lone NO votes on the ridiculous speed round. You could put a gun to the guys forehead and he still wouldn't surrender his principles.

America has a gift right now, it will be foolish if we ignore Ron Paul. I doubt that I will see a man like Ron Paul in my life time again.

My feelings exactly!!!

I was a delegate there - I drove 700 miles in my beat up unairconditioned jalopy just so I could be there and meet the man. He made me proud that he would not give in to the crowd! Dr. No stayed true to his convictions! He voted no 7 times when all of the other guys voted yes to make the crowd happy, with Tancredo "explaining" all of his answers anytime he felt any negative vibes. He did so much flip flopping I thought he was going to hurt himself!

Huckabee was making statements about passing the plate and taking up an offering - absolutely no shame in the man!!!

[ladyliberty]

In the 2 hour church service before the meeting they kept comparing the debate to the Old Testament, when David was chosen to be king of Isreal and praying for God to help them to choose His David...

I found myself wondering why we were praying to pick a king instead of a President????????

[Corydoras]

I found myself wondering why we were praying to pick a king instead of a President????????

I thought God told the Israelites they were going to be real sorry if they had kings even if they thought they wanted it...
:confused:

[Wendi]

Well said. . .

Not sure I entirely agree with where this is perhaps going (in that I think that lends itself to a secular society), but I have to admit, well said.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a "secular" society, as long as the rights of all individuals to practice their faith are protected. I believe the best way to protect the rights of people of all faiths is to make sure the government isn't endorsing any particular faith at all.

EDITED TO ADD:

There are a couple of links in my signature that show why it's better that gov't doesn't get involved in religious affairs.

[nexalacer]

Well said. . .

Not sure I entirely agree with where this is perhaps going (in that I think that lends itself to a secular society), but I have to admit, well said.

If freedom leads to a secular society, maybe that should show you something about the true strength of religion in human society. That is to say, if society is not coerced through force into following religion, would it be as strong as it is today? If society is not coerced into believing in gods, would we have the thousands of years of history of murder and oppression that is a direct result of religious teachings? If you want to continue to believe an illogical fallacy (the existence of an all-knowing and AT THE SAME TIME all-powerful being), be my guest, but if you're worried that society isn't going to follow the same fallacy, you're severely misguided with your quest for individual liberty.

[nexalacer]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a "secular" society, as long as the rights of all individuals to practice their faith are protected. I believe the best way to protect the rights of people of all faiths is to make sure the government isn't endorsing any particular faith at all.

EDITED TO ADD:

There are a couple of links in my signature that show why it's better that gov't doesn't get involved in religious affairs.

This is how to have a faith and support individual rights. As a non-believer, I thank you.

[wgadget]

Here are some interesting poll data from the Values Voter Debate people. What do you make of it?

http://www.valuesvoterdebate.com/pollresults.cfm

[Captain Shays]

What a lot of Christians today fail to see about Ron Paul and the founding fathers is that our government/Constitution operated the way it was written would prevent the establishment of the one world government as prophesied in the bible. We all believe that the end times are near and we see prophesies being fullfilled every day. We see the groundwork for the one world government being laid down before our very eyes.
Ron Paul is the ONLY candidate, including the Christian Huckabee who has acknowledged the SPP providing for the North American Union. He's authored Bills that would get us out fo the UN and all the extra-national "trade agreements" and orginizations that were designed to lead to a one world government though progressive regionalization.
He's the ONLY one who stands up for the Christian just war principles, and the policies of armed neutrality and non interventionism. He stands fot he freedom that was authored by our Savior, Jesus Christ.

But Christians today, just like so many others, are caught up in being authoritarians, either right or left. Therefore, its unthinkable for them to consider even for a minute getting the federal government out of the drug war for instance. What? Legalize pot? Pot is evil! Huh? Well God made pot didn't He? Was pot the tree in the garden, the only plant that we couldn't touch? If no, then it should be legal for who is man to say that its evil if God made it and said its good? But to hear this burns off their ears.

Then there's the modern crusade pumped into our heads about Moslims being ready to cut off all of our heads if given a chance while raping our young daughters and eating camel popsickles.

We focus on abortion so much that it becomes a single issue for Christians to be a diversion from other issues that we deny and ignore just to save the unborn while forgetting about the living and soon to be living. Yes we should protect the unborn but not at the federal level for in doing so, it opens the door for more growth in size and power of the federal govt. and more unconstitutional practices.

[reduen]

At first glance, I had absolutely no interest whatsoever in watching the debate. Why? Well because other than Phyllis Schlafly, I as an ultra-conservative Christian have zero respect for any of the people involved with the thing.

Take Janet Folger for instance, one of the most shameless snakes that parades around conservative Christianity. This is the woman who crammed George Bush down our throats in 2004 after watching him destroy our constitution, drag us into a needless undeclared war, stump for public education, cater to false religions by participating in their worship, cater to the homosexual lobby with appointments and speeches, rub our noses in his immorality by stumping with the likes of Arlen Spector and inviting the likes of Ozzy Osbourne into the White house, and most importantly DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO END THE KILLING OF INNOCENT PRE-BORN CHILDREN.

And this woman, Folger, told us he was a wonderful christian man and we should all rally behind him. Then there's the AFA which is a republican neo-con loving organization designed to do nothing but distract us Christians from the real issues and instead keep us focused on the little ones, all the while telling us they know best, they're smarter than us, and we should do what they say. Snakes, I tell you, SNAKES.

I say I still respect Phyllis Schlafly because at least in part, she's been willing to call the GOP out on the carpet for the complete undermining of our constitution and the hypocracy of saying you have Godly values and then acting worldly in policy. Schlafly is a good woman.

But the big reason why I had no interest in seeing the debate is because I knew what was going to happen. Ron Paul was going to go to the debate, do the right thing and stand up for the Christian Just War theory, the Bible based document of the Constitution, and the Godly idea of small government. . . and no one would care, or notice. I know this because I've been around Christians for a long time now, talking to them about Dr. Paul's ideas, either mentioning him or not mentioning him, and have discovered one thing: Most Christians think that being a Christian is summed up in two basic ideas.


1. Christianity is a special moose club we attend on Sunday's, and that club will continue even after we die. They hold to an intellectual vacant idea of Christianity. When faced with having to think about their faith, and it's implications on every day life, 90% of this group would rather abandon their "faith" than change their ideals.

2. Because of the moronic philosophy in point 1, most Christians care more about what Rush Limbaugh says than what the Bible says. They care more about their own understanding of history, than to actually understand history, and care more about how they'll look to their friends, neighbors and family, then how they'll look to God.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm glad Dr. Paul did well, as usual, but don't expect it to really help him amongst Christians. Two people will rule this arena:

Mike Huckabee (see he's a babtist minister and never fails to remind you of that. He can't be bad, because we've never known a minister to be bad or wrong. . . . right??)

and sadly . .

Mitt Romney (He's spiritual, see!!!! He's a mormon, and I know that we all thought that was cult last year, but this guy has charisma, and as we all know, people in cults have no charisma).

Don't get me wrong, not all Christians are stupid, some actually do think (many of them post on these forums) so not all is lost. But even though Dr. Paul went in with the ideas most resembling Biblical government, 80% of the people listening won't recognize that, and 70% wouldn't care even if they did recognize it.

Very well said jmarinara! Sad but true....

God Bless You,

Chris R.

[Captain Shays]

While I'm on it, another issue so many Christians today are caught up in is the pre-trib rapture position. Why is that so important to the modern political process? Because they believe the prophesies that fortell of extremely hard times, with major wars, famines, and the rise of a guy called the antichrist who will force everyone to were a mark on their forehead or their right hand with the number or numbers of 666. No one will be able to buy or sell anything unless they have that number on their hands.
This prophesy was at the heart of the anti socialist security debate during FDRs administration. The God fearing people in this country didn't want anything that would be a number assaigned to individuals or could some day be used as a national ID card because they understood that as leading up to the mark of the beast. But today, many Christians are supporting candidates and policies that are far worse and more dangerously threatening to our liberties and religious freedoms.
They also support authoritarianism in many forms especially if George Bush and other republicans or Democrats say it will protect us. Things like not allowing convicted criminals to vote or to keep and bear arms even after they have paid their debt to society. But they forget that we get our rights from God and not the government and if that right can be taken away for our entire life then ALL of our rights can be taken away at any time from anyone whether a felon or not.
If someone cannot be trusted with ALL of their Constitutional rights then we shouldn't let them out of jail in the first place.

But its so bad today that we can call ourselves "pro-life" and then support the killing of living and unborn babies via remote bombs or support some industry that spews toxins into our air and water that cause birth defects, mis carriages and cancer.

The left leaning Christians are just as bad if not worse. They try to use the government to become a god that hands out charity for them through government programs as if some day it will grant them favor with the real God because they voted for Robin Hood type theives who took from the rich and gave to the poor.
So Christians are being used and abused by the powers that be. The CFR scum who control our electoral process and also control the media.

Wanna get Christians on board with Ron Paul? Tell them about the CRR and the plans to form a one world government,.

But make sure to point out to them that the one world government as prophesied in the bible is not their God's plan for He would NEVER want a one world government to be run by sinfull men especially an antichrist who persecutes His children.

[Wendi]

Sometimes, I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I realize the things that some of my fellow believers are basing their political decisions upon. This is one of those moments.