Off the rails

[braumstr]

I dont know if Ron Paul realizes it or not, but his position on social spending programs WAS NOT the reason he was so popular during the presidential campaign. It had to due with unjust war, empire building and his Libertarian view on social values. THAT is what the campaign for liberty should focus on because it is UNIFYING not DERISIVE. the MAJORITY of Americans WANT healthcare reform, even if they dont understand what it means. I dont know how they feel about high speed rail, but they are uninformed if they dont support it, true free markets in this country would have resulted in a massive efficient rail system. Majority WANT cheaper education, Majority WANT green power...the list of big spending Obama programs that enjoy OVERWHELMING support of the American people is long. In my view, it is ignorant to target these. The numbers are too small in the campaign for liberty to make a dent. No one is listening. No one likes taxes, but when you look at the facts you realize that Obama LOWERED taxes on the vast majority of Americans. The argument about taxes, although valid, is never going to get any traction.

I am not advocating do nothing, what I am saying is that you need to choose your battles carefully. Try selecting one you can win for a start so you can gain credibility. If we made Afghanistan the issue of the day, I would have climbed aboard. That is a STUPID STUPID war and throwing more troops into it is a colossialy stupid move....and one we cant afford. Rail against that why dont we?
What about warrantless wiretaping or refusal to prosecute senior bush officials for violations of the Constitution? I thought we cared about constitutional law and privacy in this movement? What about ending the war on drugs? Sign me up. The list of things that has potential to garner BROAD POPULIST support is just as long as the list of things Obama is doing that we cant begin to make a dent in.

I dont know who is making decisions, but it smacks of following the Republican Party lead. Anytime your starting to sound a little too much like Faux news analyst, it might be time to pause, look in the mirror and ask if your doing the right thing. Right now, the campaign for liberty mailers and phone calls sound just like Sean Hannity, and that, to me anyhow, does not work. If someone even begins to sound like Hanity or Limbaugh, I want nothing to do with them. In fact, if your towing the Republican party line....count me out.

I appologize if this has been well plowed, I have been absent from these boards for some time for the reasons listed in this post.

[acptulsa]

Yeah, pretty well covered. The only promise Obama hasn't broken is lowering taxes--but he didn't do that by changing the tax code, he did that by continuing to trash the economy and pursue policies that devalue the dollar. When you're unemployed, payroll taxes are the last thing you have to worry about...

And some of us have been talking about how Medicare makes health care prices spiral and about how the ICC killed private enterprise passenger travel for some time now. Not to mention how stupid people are to say electric this and electric that are actually 'green' even when they live in an area served by a coal-fired power plant. And, no, none of us have come out in favor of any foreign entanglements lately, despite the brainwashing pouring out of certain media outlets.

So, instead of preaching to the choir, why not look around? And welcome back.

[Kraig]

I think you are way off, it seems to me that his foreign policy was actually his weak point. I have heard many republicans say they like his economic principles but think his foreign policy is too dangerous. To me that was really the "cliche" republican opinion of him when he was running: "good ideas but his old fashioned foreign policy will get us killed". That said, neither of us can really speak for what the "majority" wants.

You need to clarify what you personally support him for, and why you think the majority would support him.

[acptulsa]

I think you are way off, it seems to me that his foreign policy was actually his weak point. I have heard many republicans say they like his economic principles but think his foreign policy is too dangerous. To me that was really the "cliche" republican opinion of him when he was running: "good ideas but his old fashioned foreign policy will get us killed". That said, neither of us can really speak for what the "majority" wants.

He has obviously been talking to liberals. Doesn't it show? Different set of brainwashing to counter.

[Sandra]

The GOP is fervently trying to find chummy middle ground with Libertarians .... then they divert, or attempt to.

[acptulsa]

The GOP is fervently trying to find chummy middle ground with Libertarians .... then they divert, or attempt to.

Their idea of 'chummy middle ground' is we become imperialistic warhawks. Ain't happening.

[Kraig]

He has obviously been talking to liberals. Doesn't it show? Different set of brainwashing to counter.

Yeah that makes sense, I guess I am too distant from that mindset.

[AuH20]

End the warfare/welfare state. Take down the Fed. There can be no compromise.

[AuH20]

I dont know if Ron Paul realizes it or not, but his position on social spending programs WAS NOT the reason he was so popular during the presidential campaign. It had to due with unjust war, empire building and his Libertarian view on social values. THAT is what the campaign for liberty should focus on because it is UNIFYING not DERISIVE. the MAJORITY of Americans WANT healthcare reform, even if they dont understand what it means. I dont know how they feel about high speed rail, but they are uninformed if they dont support it, true free markets in this country would have resulted in a massive efficient rail system. Majority WANT cheaper education, Majority WANT green power...the list of big spending Obama programs that enjoy OVERWHELMING support of the American people is long. In my view, it is ignorant to target these. The numbers are too small in the campaign for liberty to make a dent. No one is listening. No one likes taxes, but when you look at the facts you realize that Obama LOWERED taxes on the vast majority of Americans. The argument about taxes, although valid, is never going to get any traction.

I am not advocating do nothing, what I am saying is that you need to choose your battles carefully. Try selecting one you can win for a start so you can gain credibility. If we made Afghanistan the issue of the day, I would have climbed aboard. That is a STUPID STUPID war and throwing more troops into it is a colossialy stupid move....and one we cant afford. Rail against that why dont we?
What about warrantless wiretaping or refusal to prosecute senior bush officials for violations of the Constitution? I thought we cared about constitutional law and privacy in this movement? What about ending the war on drugs? Sign me up. The list of things that has potential to garner BROAD POPULIST support is just as long as the list of things Obama is doing that we cant begin to make a dent in.

I dont know who is making decisions, but it smacks of following the Republican Party lead. Anytime your starting to sound a little too much like Faux news analyst, it might be time to pause, look in the mirror and ask if your doing the right thing. Right now, the campaign for liberty mailers and phone calls sound just like Sean Hannity, and that, to me anyhow, does not work. If someone even begins to sound like Hanity or Limbaugh, I want nothing to do with them. In fact, if your towing the Republican party line....count me out.

I appologize if this has been well plowed, I have been absent from these boards for some time for the reasons listed in this post.

I don't mean to sound offensive, but do you know where this money for said social spending/entitlement programs largely comes from? It doesn't come from this country. People have to get this notion out of their head, that they're getting something for free. This money has strings attached to it.

[acptulsa]

I don't mean to sound offensive, but do you know where this money for said social spending/entitlement programs largely comes from? It doesn't come from this country. People have to get this notion out of their head, that they're getting something for free. This money has strings attached to it.

A certain European think tank believes the Chinese are about to dump all of that debt of ours that they're holding--at a discount. When that happens, no one will loan us enough money to buy Obama a used Yugo. And since our currency is based on our 'credit rating', so to speak, that will be a severe blow to the FRN. And we'll be hurting.

[hugolp]

A certain European think tank believes the Chinese are about to dump all of that debt of ours that they're holding--at a discount. When that happens, no one will loan us enough money to buy Obama a used Yugo. And since our currency is based on our 'credit rating', so to speak, that will be a severe blow to the FRN. And we'll be hurting.

Not only a european think tank. And btw that european think tank (GEP I guess you are talking about) its quite good.

[Elwar]

Obama LOWERED taxes on the vast majority of Americans.

When was this? I don't recall anything like this. Do you mean the extra $13 for half a year?

As far as what you think Ron Paul's strengths were...these are his strengths in your view.

Lots of people from the left liked his anti-war, non-neocon stances. Lots of people from the right liked his end the fed, anti-big government stances.

Lots of people from the libertarian side liked him for both.

As government grows we will get a lot more people questioning their love for big government. We might have current liberals down the road saying "Hey, I was all for universal health care and free puppies for everyone but I draw the line at equal pay for everyone...I'm going to check this Ron Paul guy who at least I know what I'm getting from him".

[acptulsa]

Not only a european think tank. And btw that european think tank (GEP I guess you are talking about) its quite good.

The GEAB. First heard of it here yesterday.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=188905

Terrible translation (undoubtedly done by a computer) but worth deciphering.

[braumstr]

I do not need to justify to myself or anyone else why or why not I value Ron Paul. Of course, everything I write is my own opinion, but it is backed by careful research and some honest skepticism.

I honestly expected more hate filled responses for the Hanity reference, so thanks for listening.

I think allot of people misunderstand where money comes from in the first place. I understand it is quite complex and few can grasp the complexities. I don't claim to be an expert. I have studied the issue some, both on the web and in college. I am not a trained economist....(neither are some other people) but I think I have an informed opinion.

(I think) The first thing you need to do to understand modern economics is to realize that money created by the fed out of thin air is what is being spent by the government. It is not necessary to borrow this money from China or anyone else for that matter, when it can be created..yes, out of thin air. I mash the button and the wire transfer happens. How many zeroes would you like? Many economist believe fixing currency to a commodity, as advocated by many, is dangerous. Of course the libertarian view is different.

China's threat to stop investing in the dollar is hollow. First, who cares if they do? Let them go to the Euro or whatever...(the exchange fees for the goods we buy would be terrifying to them, and the fees would likely flow into American banks costing them even more than simply leaving their treasury notes all alone). They can moan and suggest "another currency" but then they will put down the hash pipe and realize they are married to us with no divorce options. We are their largest consumer customer and no one else, last I checked, is stepping in to replace us. As goes america and the dollar so goes China.

The more I read about it all, the more I become convinced that the entire idea of abolishing the fed would be dangerous. Yes, it fosters mal-investment, yes its a private bank, yes yes yes etc. but what do you think all the little homers will do when it is realized they are not needed because what they were doing before is now considered "mal-investment" ? Homer will quickly become "McVeigh" is my fear. Better to "create money out of thin air" and put Homer to work than allow for too many idle hands. I dont see how you can do this with a commodity based currency. The simple issue as I see it, is that modern technology allows for all human needs to be met through automation. Basically, not everyone needs to work...but we have not figured out what to do with all the manpower and at the same time we are breeding more and more of it.........but I digress....my original point, its not going away..(the fed).and as for borrowing from China? See the point above. Folks, the Fed don't play by the same rules as the average citizen, its more a "wizard of oz" type operation, and I am starting to think keeping the wizard going might be our only option.

What backs the currency then? What about the other shoe...the so-called "falling dollar" catastrophe predicted by some? It might happen. There is risk when too many dollars are "created" that the currency will be devalued. I think this is still unlikely though because.....our money is backed by the point of a gun. No one else can challenge us. That too can change, and it might, but right now its just not the case and based on what I know its not likely.

I bring all this up because it is at the root of some of the criticism of my remarks and goes to many of your rationale arguing against investment in social and infrastructure programs. As for what American want, I cant say, this is correct, but I can read polling data and so can everyone else. I can also observe election results.

At some point, I have to be honest to myself about what is realistic and whats not (thinking out loud a bit)

I still argue that ending foriegn intervention was Dr. Paul's strongest selling point, but maybe that was only my interpretation. For argument sake, was there a candidate who wanted the empire yet shared Dr. Paul's views on economics in the last Presidential election?