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Dripping Rain
04-08-2009, 06:02 PM
i really like a lot of lrc and mises work but anarchy is one of the things where they lose me.
i feel for the suffering of the somalian people and i dont find it funny. but what i find funny is the anarchists like this one who see it as a utopia which is the impression i got out of this article. i love the mindset of seeing the glass half full. but this is just ludicrous
http://www.mises.org/story/2701

Were there such a category, Somalia would hold a place in Guinness World Records as the country with the longest absence of a functioning central government. When the Somalis dismantled their government in 1991 and returned to their precolonial political status, the expectation was that chaos would result — and that, of course, would be the politically correct thing to expect.

Imagine if it were otherwise. Imagine any part of the globe not being dominated by a central government and the people there surviving, even prospering. If such were to happen and the idea spread to other parts of Africa or other parts of the world, the mystique of the necessity of the state might be irreparably damaged, and many politicians and bureaucrats might find themselves walking about looking for work.

If the expectation was that Somalia would plunge into an abyss of chaos, what is the reality? A number of recent studies address this question, including one by economist Peter Leeson drawing on statistical data from the United Nations Development Project, World Bank, CIA, and World Health Organization.

edit: debunking freedomain radios somalia video
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=187867

RevolutionSD
04-08-2009, 06:05 PM
You're not getting it.

Here are the facts with Somalia, it's not even CLOSE to anarcho-capitalism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGkTRnocZI

Dripping Rain
04-08-2009, 06:09 PM
You're not getting it.

Here are the facts with Somalia, it's not even CLOSE to anarcho-capitalism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGkTRnocZI

im watching thanks. will reply after its over

angelatc
04-08-2009, 06:10 PM
Somalia is more war-lordism than anarchy.

ChaosControl
04-08-2009, 06:14 PM
Yeah, people bring up a lot of these places as what it'd be like with a small government or no government. They don't get that it is because of authoritarian rulers that the problems there exist to begin with.

The statists refuse to accept the fact that government causes the vast majority of suffering in the world, government is the anti-freedom, government is the greatest criminal in the history of mankind.

heavenlyboy34
04-08-2009, 06:16 PM
Yeah, people bring up a lot of these places as what it'd be like with a small government or no government. They don't get that it is because of authoritarian rulers that the problems there exist to begin with.

The statists refuse to accept the fact that government causes the vast majority of suffering in the world, government is the anti-freedom, government is the greatest criminal in the history of mankind.

+a zillion! You are exactly correct! :cool::D Well done!

Conza88
04-08-2009, 06:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGkTRnocZI

Await the rebuttal....... :rolleyes:

NOW ask yourself this:

- What is civilization based on?

Find out the answers and we'll go ahead and see where the state fits in that picture.

krazy kaju
04-08-2009, 06:17 PM
That article doesn't paint Somalia as an anarchist utopia - far from it. However, they do make the point that the more anarchist portions of Somalia have it much better off than their statist neighbors in Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Paulitician
04-08-2009, 06:31 PM
Somalia is more war-lordism than anarchy.
Agreed. I also hear they have small regional governments.

A society can't really prosper after a collapse of a central government, especially when it's an ingrained and important part (it takes time and work). Beside, part of the reason why Somalia is still crap is because, they were never really that rich to begin with, countries (like ours) are trying to conquer it, but despite this quality of life on net has improved for Somalians under such "anarchy." Anyway, my ideal for reaching an anarchistic society is by motivated individuals voluntary creating it from the bottom up. I mean, of course there is going to be difficulty in the transition when the way a society operates drastically changes, and that change is forced (whether naturally or artificially).

apropos
04-08-2009, 06:43 PM
I think that if this sort of social arrangement was something people really wanted, it would have already happened by now. And if such societies were formed in the past, where are those utopias now?

It all sounds very similar to the Marxian idea of the mythical "new man" who will populate a future world none of us will live to see.

Theocrat
04-08-2009, 06:48 PM
It's funny to me how anarchists write so many articles about how well things are going in the great anarchy of Somalia, yet they still choose to reside in nations with centralized governments. The writer of that article, Spencer Heath MacCallum, lives in Mexico, where the civil government there is worse than the U.S. Why hasn't he moved to Somalia yet, if it's so great? Become a pilgrim, and experience the liberty of anarchy you so desperately want.

RevolutionSD
04-08-2009, 06:50 PM
Theocrat, you don't get it. You want to impose your way on others. Us anarchists do not want to impose anything on anyone. Watch the video that a couple of us linked to if you want to know the truth about Somalia.

idiom
04-08-2009, 06:51 PM
You're not getting it.

Here are the facts with Somalia, it's not even CLOSE to anarcho-capitalism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGkTRnocZI

Its a good video. The religious tribalism is better than the worst forms of communism? Colour me suprised. :P

Oddly enough, Cambodia rebounded heavily from a similar government. It is doing better than Somalia, though under a central government, so we won't talk about that.

Dripping Rain
04-08-2009, 06:52 PM
It's funny to me how anarchists write so many articles about how well things are going in the great anarchy of Somalia, yet they still choose to reside in nations with centralized governments. The writer of that article, Spencer Heath MacCallum, lives in Mexico, where the civil government there is worse than the U.S. Why hasn't he moved to Somalia yet, if it's so great? Become a pilgrim, and experience the liberty of anarchy you so desperately want.

lol

Dripping Rain
04-08-2009, 06:53 PM
Theocrat, you don't get it. You want to impose your way on others. Us anarchists do not want to impose anything on anyone. Watch the video that a couple of us linked to if you want to know the truth about Somalia.

revolution in finished half the video. im working on another thread to debunk some of what i see wrong with the vid

Theocrat
04-08-2009, 06:58 PM
Theocrat, you don't get it. You want to impose your way on others. Us anarchists do not want to impose anything on anyone. Watch the video that a couple of us linked to if you want to know the truth about Somalia.

Can you link me one article written from a resident of Somalia, praising the success of their so-called anarchical society? I have yet to read such an article with that perspective.

idiom
04-08-2009, 07:04 PM
Can you link me one article written from a resident of Somalia, praising the success of their so-called anarchical society? I have yet to read such an article with that perspective.

I know a lot of Somailis that moved to New Zealand... Oh.

nate895
04-08-2009, 07:12 PM
What Somalia has is a combination of warlords, regional governments, and minarchic tribal bands. It isn't really anarchy in its true form. That being said, it is important to note that the living conditions for the average Somalian have gone up. Just look at airlines and telecommunications alone. Where there was one state-run airline with one flying tin can, there are now six competitors flying to a variety of domestic and foreign route, and telecommunications companies offer speedy, cheap services better than any other country on the continent. Education has proliferated throughout the country, electricity has done the same. Quite frankly, I think if you are looking to invest in a foreign market, Somalia is that market.

Chosen
04-08-2009, 07:14 PM
It's funny to me how anarchists write so many articles about how well things are going in the great anarchy of Somalia, yet they still choose to reside in nations with centralized governments. The writer of that article, Spencer Heath MacCallum, lives in Mexico, where the civil government there is worse than the U.S. Why hasn't he moved to Somalia yet, if it's so great? Become a pilgrim, and experience the liberty of anarchy you so desperately want.+1

Somalia and the pirates that murder and steal are exactly what anarchy is all about. It should be referenced as a current real world example of what anarchy is truly all about.

The American version is also about rich white and jewish kids in their second year of college pretending they don't come from money. They have sex with their frat brothers and take an intro to philosophy course to deal with their guilt. That's the other type of anarchist one encounters.

"Mises bro, yeah totally bro. Let's take off our shirts and dance on the bed to the cure!" "Anarchy bro" "Yeah dude I'm so broke bro, huh?" "Yeah dude anarchy. Let's go have some Veal Cordon Bleu bro." "Anarchy man, yeah lets go." "Anarchy freedom."

Just a reminder of what anarchy is really all about:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,992843,00.html

General protest
http://rightwingerz.com/protest/protest_0060.JPG
Notice the America NO Lenin pic.
http://rightwingerz.com/protest/protest_0101.JPG

WTO rioters:
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,619269,00.jpg

http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/images/BB/photo11.jpg

nate895
04-08-2009, 07:19 PM
+1

Somalia and the pirates that murder and steal are exactly what anarchy is all about. It should be referenced as a current real world example of what anarchy is truly all about.

The American version is also about rich white and jewish kids in their second year of college pretending they don't come from money. They have sex with their frat brothers and take an intro to philosophy course to deal with their guilt. That's the other type of anarchist one encounters.

"Mises bro, yeah totally bro. Let's take off our shirts and dance on the bed to the cure!" "Anarchy bro" "Yeah dude I'm so broke bro, huh?" "Yeah dude anarchy. Let's go have some Veal Cordon Bleu bro." "Anarchy man, yeah lets go." "Anarchy freedom."

Just a reminder of what anarchy is really all about:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,992843,00.html

General protest
http://rightwingerz.com/protest/protest_0060.JPG
Notice the America NO Lenin pic.
http://rightwingerz.com/protest/protest_0101.JPG

WTO rioters:
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,619269,00.jpg

http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/images/BB/photo11.jpg

The reason why the Somali pirates are there isn't because there is anarchy in Somalia, it is because the dumbasses who regulate and own ships don't have guns. If you are a thief in near-anarchic Somalia, it is much easier to go after the cheap target, dumbass Westerners who don't have guns because otherwise it would turn into the "Wild West," rather than the heavily armed banks in Mogadishu.

Nate
04-08-2009, 07:28 PM
Great. More straw men attacks and collectivist dogmatism that doesn’t do anything except create division among those who strive for individualism and liberty. Why don't we all spend our time attacking and working against the big government instead of bickering and attacking each other?
Face the facts everybody. This is a movement filled with free thinking individuals and we will never all coalesce into a single ideological movement. Forcing this to become a small tent will only make this into yet another marginal movement with minimal support. If this liberty and freedom thing is going to take hold amongst the masses we are going to need minarchists, constitutionalists, anarcho-capitalists, classical liberals, libertarians, objectivists, paleo-conservatives, anti-imperialists and many, many more groups to all temporarily put away their minor political differences (at this point in time our differences are minor compared to the totalitarians destroying this country) and present a unified front on the simple premise of getting the government out of our daily lives. Start concentrating on your similarities instead of fighting about the differences.
Ron Paul has figured this out. This is why he reaches out to people like Kucinich, Nader, McKinney and yes even Barney Frank. Kill them with kindness and slowly CHANGE THEIR MINDS. This is how he gets more accomplished than any other small government advocate in the country. If we are going to win this fight we must keep slicing away at the beast until in dies from all the bloodletting. Find those who agree with you on a certain issue and work with them on that issue. I just finished working for a Green Party candidate because he was anti-bailout, anti-war, pro-civil liberties and pro-personal privacy. He is a good guy who has his heart in the right place but just needs a lesson or two or 50 in economics. He now loves Ron Paul and has a much more positive view of libertarians and small government conservatives than he did before I worked with him. This is how you build alliances that will return the control of this country to the people and rip it away from the global elite. If you are always attacking your allies they will not stay allies for very long. Then we are right back to where we started which is a tyrannical government that has conquered us because we divided ourselves for their benefit. Stop doing the statist's job for them. Work together.
"Freedom brings us together. It doesn’t divide us." Ron Paul

nate895
04-08-2009, 07:36 PM
Great. More straw men attacks and collectivist dogmatism that doesn’t do anything except create division among those who strive for individualism and liberty. Why don't we all spend our time attacking and working against the big government instead of bickering and attacking each other?
Face the facts everybody. This is a movement filled with free thinking individuals and we will never all coalesce into a single ideological movement. Forcing this to become a small tent will only make this into yet another marginal movement with minimal support. If this liberty and freedom thing is going to take hold amongst the masses we are going to need minarchists, constitutionalists, anarcho-capitalists, classical liberals, libertarians, objectivists, paleo-conservatives, anti-imperialists and many, many more groups to all temporarily put away their minor political differences (at this point in time our differences are minor compared to the totalitarians destroying this country) and present a unified front on the simple premise of getting the government out of our daily lives. Start concentrating on your similarities instead of fighting about the differences.
Ron Paul has figured this out. This is why he reaches out to people like Kucinich, Nader, McKinney and yes even Barney Frank. Kill them with kindness and slowly CHANGE THEIR MINDS. This is how he gets more accomplished than any other small government advocate in the country. If we are going to win this fight we must keep slicing away at the beast until in dies from all the bloodletting. Find those who agree with you on a certain issue and work with them on that issue. I just finished working for a Green Party candidate because he was anti-bailout, anti-war, pro-civil liberties and pro-personal privacy. He is a good guy who has his heart in the right place but just needs a lesson or two or 50 in economics. He now loves Ron Paul and has a much more positive view of libertarians and small government conservatives than he did before I worked with him. This is how you build alliances that will return the control of this country to the people and rip it away from the global elite. If you are always attacking your allies they will not stay allies for very long. Then we are right back to where we started which is a tyrannical government that has conquered us because we divided ourselves for their benefit. Stop doing the statist's job for them. Work together.
"Freedom brings us together. It doesn’t divide us." Ron Paul

We were having an intellectual discussion, we were not at each other's throats over anarchy in Somalia. I am a pro-life, constitutionalist libertarian which isn't exactly in favor of anarchy, but I can still point out the good that the lack of centralized government has done for Somalia, even if I may argue that the society is more of a radical minarchy.

RevolutionSD
04-08-2009, 07:42 PM
Can you link me one article written from a resident of Somalia, praising the success of their so-called anarchical society? I have yet to read such an article with that perspective.

1) It's not by any means an anarcho-capitalist society
2) Nobody here is claiming Somalia is an anarchist paradise
3) You want to impose your views on everyone else, while we don't want to impose our views on anyone.

In your ideal government, my rights would be violated. In my ideal government (lack of government) you would be free to do as you please, as long as you don't harm or steal from me.

Which would you rather have?

idiom
04-08-2009, 08:04 PM
We were having an intellectual discussion, we were not at each other's throats over anarchy in Somalia. I am a pro-life, constitutionalist libertarian which isn't exactly in favor of anarchy, but I can still point out the good that the lack of centralized government has done for Somalia, even if I may argue that the society is more of a radical minarchy.

Its not the lack of any government, it is the lack of a massively oppresive and incredibly poorly run and corrupt 'communist' government.

Not really that hard to improve on.

Dripping Rain
04-08-2009, 08:07 PM
my debunking of the freedomain somalia video. please read and comment
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=187867

RedStripe
04-08-2009, 08:09 PM
1. Somalia is better off without a central government than it was with a central government.

2. Most Somali people are against the creation of a central government that the West and our African puppet governments have been pushing for.

3. Some parts of Somalia are anarchist - the regions where voluntary tribal communities are the only major social institutions.

4. Somalia has a rich history of local tribal/customary law akin to the English common law system that is very anarchist in nature (meaning law not enforced or created by a state)

5. Somalia is a relatively free country, and is relatively peaceful apart from attempts to establish central governments based in Mogadishu and the ensuring battles for control.

6. The Union of Islamic Courts was about as limited government as you could get, although they did impose a few religious-based restrictions (likely not very strictly enforced).

7. The Somali pirates treat the captured crews very nicely, even going so far as to hire catering services and professional chefs to feed them. They are 100000% more gentlemanly than any government, and don't pretend as if they are doing anything but extorting money. They also let the crew go and don't follow them around pretending to be their "rulers."

8. I'd rather live in Somalia than North Korea any day. In fact, I'd rather live in the "worst" anarchist society than the "worst" statist society under any circumstances.

And no shit I'm not going to move to Somalia - it's an underdeveloped nation on a continent that has been exploited for hundreds of years. But just like Somalia is better off without a central government, so is the United States and every other society. That's the point.

nate895
04-08-2009, 08:09 PM
Its not the lack of any government, it is the lack of a massively oppresive and incredibly poorly run and corrupt 'communist' government.

Not really that hard to improve on.

Very true, but Somalia still stands out as how capitalism can quite rapidly improve the lives of common people.

nate895
04-08-2009, 08:15 PM
1. Somalia is better off without a central government than it was with a central government.

2. Most Somali people are against the creation of a central government that the West and our African puppet governments have been pushing for.

3. Some parts of Somalia are anarchist - the regions where voluntary tribal communities are the only major social institutions.

4. Somalia has a rich history of local tribal/customary law akin to the English common law system that is very anarchist in nature (meaning law not enforced or created by a state)

5. Somalia is a relatively free country, and is relatively peaceful apart from attempts to establish central governments based in Mogadishu and the ensuring battles for control.

6. The Union of Islamic Courts was about as limited government as you could get, although they did impose a few religious-based restrictions (likely not very strictly enforced).

7. The Somali pirates treat the captured crews very nicely, even going so far as to hire catering services and professional chefs to feed them. They are 100000% more gentlemanly than any government, and don't pretend as if they are doing anything but extorting money. They also let the crew go and don't follow them around pretending to be their "rulers."

8. I'd rather live in Somalia than North Korea any day. In fact, I'd rather live in the "worst" anarchist society than the "worst" statist society under any circumstances.

And no shit I'm not going to move to Somalia - it's an underdeveloped nation on a continent that has been exploited for hundreds of years. But just like Somalia is better off without a central government, so is the United States and every other society. That's the point.

Yeah, the reason I would not want to move to Somalia, apart from the fact that I kind of like my family and want to stay in my home country, is because there is so little economic potential beyond industrial manufacturing. Also, if Somalia got too successful (as in, so successful you could hardly argue its success), I have a feeling Western governments will mobilize after faking some sort of terror threat from Somalia, and I am not much of a conspiracy theorist.

RedStripe
04-08-2009, 08:34 PM
Yeah, the reason I would not want to move to Somalia, apart from the fact that I kind of like my family and want to stay in my home country, is because there is so little economic potential beyond industrial manufacturing. Also, if Somalia got too successful (as in, so successful you could hardly argue its success), I have a feeling Western governments will mobilize after faking some sort of terror threat from Somalia, and I am not much of a conspiracy theorist.

Our criminal rulers have already declared Somalia a "terrorist" breeding/training ground. Of course the reason that there are Islamic militants in Somalia is because they are defending their society from Western-backed attempts to control them. Even still, the "terrorist" allegations are pretty trumped up.

The real reason the US and other large nations don't like the idea of a stateless society in Somalia is that it might set a bad example for other nations (ie: things are better when you get rid of your Western puppet government and replace it with local government/anarchy (a fine-line distinction)).

heavenlyboy34
04-08-2009, 08:43 PM
It's funny to me how anarchists write so many articles about how well things are going in the great anarchy of Somalia, yet they still choose to reside in nations with centralized governments. The writer of that article, Spencer Heath MacCallum, lives in Mexico, where the civil government there is worse than the U.S. Why hasn't he moved to Somalia yet, if it's so great? Become a pilgrim, and experience the liberty of anarchy you so desperately want.

It's also funny how archists proclaim the virtues of their contrived system one moment and complain about corruption and evil therein the next moment. Why do so many people commit "crimes" and get sent to prison if archy is so great? :eek: You'd think people would enjoy being told what to do by a central planner. ;)

Imperial
04-08-2009, 08:55 PM
I got mad when I argued for minarchism and my socialist(by his own want, not a label I've thrown around) opponent informed me that the slippery slope fallacy always leads to Taliban era Afghanistan, Somalia, or the Congo.

heavenlyboy34
04-08-2009, 09:27 PM
I got mad when I argued for minarchism and my socialist(by his own want, not a label I've thrown around) opponent informed me that the slippery slope fallacy always leads to Taliban era Afghanistan, Somalia, or the Congo.

You should retaliate with points about the imperialism of the Soviets in Afghanistan and the French/Brits/Americans in Africa ;):cool::D

idiom
04-08-2009, 09:35 PM
I got mad when I argued for minarchism and my socialist(by his own want, not a label I've thrown around) opponent informed me that the slippery slope fallacy always leads to Taliban era Afghanistan, Somalia, or the Congo.

Didn't the slippery slope lead to America today?

Unspun
04-08-2009, 09:43 PM
Didn't the slippery slope lead to America today?

You mean a gigantic state that bails out banks by the trillions and sends it's young men and woman to die in "Taliban era Afghanistan"?