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View Full Version : Really Interesting debate about liberty activism




Chieftain1776
04-06-2009, 05:29 PM
Just read the lead (http://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/06/patri-friedman/beyond-folk-activism/) essay by Patri Friedman (founder of the Seasteading Institute) of this (http://www.cato-unbound.org/issues/from-scratch-libertarian-institutions-and-communities/) series at Cato Unbound.

The kickoff essay was not only thought provoking but really expressed some of the frustrations I have. I think many on this board probably share the same issues.

The upcoming commentators are some of the most credible people and it should be an informative exchange: Brian Doherty- author of Radicals for Capitalism pretty much THE tome of the libertarian movement, Jason Sorens- founder of The Free State Project, and Peter Thiel- cofounder of PayPal.

Here's the first paragraph:

"I deeply yearn to live in an actual free society, not just to imagine a theoretical future utopia or achieve small incremental gains in freedom. For many years, I enthusiastically advocated for liberty under the vague assumption that advocacy would help our cause. However, I recently began trying to create free societies as my full-time job, and this has given me a dramatic perspective shift from my days of armchair philosophizing.[1] My new perspective is that the advocacy approach which many libertarian individuals, groups, and think tanks follow (including me sometimes, sadly) is an utter waste of time."


http://www.cato-unbound.org/issues/from-scratch-libertarian-institutions-and-communities

Kludge
04-06-2009, 05:45 PM
I agree with much of the essay, but believe the differences between "folk activists" and other activists is simply the level of dedication. How many people would really move away from their life to live in another state or on the sea? It's sticking your neck out pretty far, as opposed to a low-risk armchair conversation or blog entry.

I'm leaning toward eventually moving post-college, but I'm not well-rooted, like many others are.

idiom
04-06-2009, 05:48 PM
LOL. He needs to join up with the Global Sedition and go into Solar Orbit or to Mars.

Sea-steading ROFL.

Or move to New Zealand :)

Chieftain1776
04-08-2009, 03:53 PM
Brian Doherty's essay is up. http://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/08/brian-doherty/the-many-paths-to-libertarianism/


I agree with much of the essay, but believe the differences between "folk activists" and other activists is simply the level of dedication.

Doherty pretty much makes the same point.


Sea-steading ROFL.

He takes jabs at it as well.

Chieftain1776
04-12-2009, 01:23 PM
bump.... Jason P. Sorens', founder of the Free State Project, essay is up.


Patri Friedman’s critique of “libertarian folk activism” is basically right. Free-market ideas have enjoyed near-dominance in academic economics for roughly thirty years at least. Libertarian think tanks are well funded and influential. Despite these encouraging developments, the overall size of government continues to grow. Both national parties in the United States are, in deed if not in word, manifestly committed to expanding government and shrinking freedom. Having the right ideas and communicating them effectively have not substantially changed politics for the better. We need the ideas and the proper communication of those ideas, but these strategies alone are not enough.
.....

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/10/jason-sorens/leveraging-institutional-change/

Flirple
04-13-2009, 01:46 AM
Yeah I am all about Patri's vision. In my mind the future of liberty is with Seasteading or at least something else in the same spirit.

Here's a short cato daily podcast talking with Patri about all this:
http://ne.edgecastcdn.net/000873/dailypodcast/patrifriedman_votingyourselfofftheisland_20090408. mp3

But also listen to him in this longer event podcast here:
http://ne.edgecastcdn.net/000873/archive-2009/cpfa-04-07-09.mp3

His thesis is absolutely game changing. There is no need to get hung up on if you agree or not with his assessment that "folk activism" is overrated. The more important issue is that he is offering a new approach that even if it fails spectacularly (I predict the opposite), we will at least learn a lot in the process.

Patri has just made a huge contribution to political theory and it piggy-backs so well on top of Hans-Hermann Hoppe's previous work (http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/?p=episode&name=2008-08-07_015_democracy_the_god_that_failed.mp3).

idiom
04-13-2009, 02:24 AM
If Sea-steading ever got going, it would take all of a week for the UN to regulate it.

Kludge
04-13-2009, 02:42 AM
If Sea-steading ever got going, it would take all of a week for the UN to regulate it.

Prince Roy Bates and Princess Joan Bates of the Principality of Sealand disagree! :p

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Sealand_prince.jpeg

Chieftain1776
04-13-2009, 01:19 PM
bump...Peter Thiel, founder of PayPal and donor of $500,000 to the Patri Friedman's Seasteading Institute is up. http://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/the-education-of-a-libertarian/


Yeah I am all about Patri's vision. In my mind the future of liberty is with Seasteading or at least something else in the same spirit.

Here's a short cato daily podcast talking with Patri about all this:
http://ne.edgecastcdn.net/000873/dailypodcast/patrifriedman_votingyourselfofftheisland_20090408. mp3

But also listen to him in this longer event podcast here:
http://ne.edgecastcdn.net/000873/archive-2009/cpfa-04-07-09.mp3

His thesis is absolutely game changing. There is no need to get hung up on if you agree or not with his assessment that "folk activism" is overrated. The more important issue is that he is offering a new approach that even if it fails spectacularly (I predict the opposite), we will at least learn a lot in the process.

Patri has just made a huge contribution to political theory and it piggy-backs so well on top of Hans-Hermann Hoppe's previous work (http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/?p=episode&name=2008-08-07_015_democracy_the_god_that_failed.mp3).

Thanks for the links. They prompted me to recall that Cato recently had a symposium with Friedman on Seasteading and they now put the video up.
I'm watching it now and I'll chime about it's prospects after I'm done. http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=5747

For now I'll just say that I too think if it fails we'll learn a great deal. I mean look at Peter Thiel and his essay...I'm surprised to learn PayPal was a consciously libertarian project. Look at the technical and financial benefits that have accrued to him personally and society generally. He hasn't achieved complete demolition of fiat money but he sure made a powerful alternative that still bears fruit.

As skeptical as I am of this project when someone like Thiel throws his financial support and insight into technology behind it I think we should all take a second look...

idiom
04-13-2009, 02:27 PM
Prince Roy Bates and Princess Joan Bates of the Principality of Sealand disagree! :p

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Sealand_prince.jpeg

Population 27? You could hide 27 people in a free state in the middle of New York.

Chieftain1776
04-13-2009, 02:57 PM
I'm watching it now and I'll chime about it's prospects after I'm done.

So I watched the Cato event and podcast. I'm pretty interested and will actually do the reading. I'm really impressed by Patri Friedman's amazing grasp of the knowledge and how well he addresses objections. It seems scores more feasible than I originally thought. That's still not saying a great deal :p. Definitely watch the video (http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=5747) though.

It's definitely worth following. I added the Seasteading.org (http://www.seasteading.org/)feed to my RSS Reader and Friedman blogs at the Distributed Republic (http://distributedrepublic.net/) blog which I've had on my reader for a long time.

Flirple
04-15-2009, 12:59 AM
So I watched the Cato event and podcast. I'm pretty interested and will actually do the reading. I'm really impressed by Patri Friedman's amazing grasp of the knowledge and how well he addresses objections. It seems scores more feasible than I originally thought. That's still not saying a great deal :p. Definitely watch the video (http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=5747) though.

Yeah I love how he is the antithesis of a utopian. Most big ideas fail because the "idea man" becomes emotionally attached to their own big idea and fails to do the hard work of working through the nitty gritty details. They often insulate their ideas from criticisms from themselves as well as from their colleagues.

What I find most compelling about Patri is that he seems to have done the necessary due-diligence. He's not a pie-in-the-sky day-dreaming crank. His idea isn't utopian like previous attempts of colonizing the sea, Ron Paulville, etc. have been.
He's an economist rationally addressing the fundamental economic and political incentive structures. His critique of the Free State project for example is ruthlessly logical.

Chieftain1776
04-16-2009, 05:13 PM
bump...the "Conversation" is up http://www.cato-unbound.org