Report states Pittsburgh officers were intentionally ambushed

[Reason]

Report states Pittsburgh officers were intentionally ambushed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxF0c8aSxLM

Original RP thread about this incident in the Bearing Arms section
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=187211

[torchbearer]

:rolleyes:
OOOooooooooooooook. The poor police were ambushed by one out gunned man.

[torchbearer]

If the guy had 20 militia buddies that hit the pigs from behind during the siege... that would be an ambush.

[Reason]

:rolleyes:
OOOooooooooooooook. The poor police were ambushed by one out gunned man.

If this report is correct and the man really did call in a domestic disturbance just to lure some cops into his yard for him to massacre then your comment is WAY OUT OF LINE.

Two cops responding to a domestic disturbance because they are doing their job to serve and protect and then getting shot in the head is PREMEDITATED MURDER. :mad:

[torchbearer]

If this report is correct and the man really did call in a domestic disturbance just to lure some cops into his yard for him to massacre then your comment is WAY OUT OF LINE.

Two cops responding to a domestic disturbance because they are doing their job to serve and protect and then getting shot in the head is PREMEDITATED MURDER. :mad:

You believe the shit you read in the news?
The media called my brother-in-law a drug ring leader. He is straight edge and hasn't touch any drugs in his life.
The media is calling my father's friend a mastermind behind a thieving ring. The guy is the most honest person I've ever met.
You haven't figured out the game yet? A guy wrote a book about it.. and someone made a movie about it called 1984.

[Athan]

That is true. The media no longer fact checks, researches, or investigates.

[pcosmar]

Let me offer another scenario, since this is speculation, both in the media and on this board.

There is an argument.
the mother , being a vengeful and selfish person, decides to call the cops. Makes up a story.
Then she tells him that the cops are coming for him. that they will take his guns (true, see Lautenberg)
Then she hides in the basement till the shooting is over.

Simple way to get someone killed.

Except he lived,. We will just have to see what his lawyer says next.

[ghengis86]

Report states Pittsburgh officers were intentionally ambushed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxF0c8aSxLM

Original RP thread about this incident in the Bearing Arms section
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=187211

as opposed to unintentionally ambushed?

[devil21]

(this is a bit off-topic but I think it makes sense given the subject)

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment (no pun intended), at what point does the next American Revolution start? When is the next "shot heard around the world"? Im in no way advocating or condoning what this guy did but if we are concerned about the constant creep of ever more invasive tyranny, when do things like this go from being despicable acts to being acts of patriotism? *Someone* will have to be that guy that takes the shot at the person they aren't supposed to shoot at. If we always condemn shooters that take down authority figures, why would anybody actually risk being that guy? Just wondering out loud.

[evilfunnystuff]

(this is a bit off-topic but I think it makes sense given the subject)

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment (no pun intended), at what point does the next American Revolution start? When is the next "shot heard around the world"? Im in no way advocating or condoning what this guy did but if we are concerned about the constant creep of ever more invasive tyranny, when do things like this go from being despicable acts to being acts of patriotism? *Someone* will have to be that guy that takes the shot at the person they aren't supposed to shoot at. If we always condemn shooters that take down authority figures, why would anybody actually risk being that guy? Just wondering out loud.

will probably go something like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPxyd3HC12I

[torchbearer]

(this is a bit off-topic but I think it makes sense given the subject)

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment (no pun intended), at what point does the next American Revolution start? When is the next "shot heard around the world"? Im in no way advocating or condoning what this guy did but if we are concerned about the constant creep of ever more invasive tyranny, when do things like this go from being despicable acts to being acts of patriotism? *Someone* will have to be that guy that takes the shot at the person they aren't supposed to shoot at. If we always condemn shooters that take down authority figures, why would anybody actually risk being that guy? Just wondering out loud.

Those thoughts did cross my mind.

[pcosmar]

(this is a bit off-topic but I think it makes sense given the subject)

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment (no pun intended), at what point does the next American Revolution start? When is the next "shot heard around the world"? Im in no way advocating or condoning what this guy did but if we are concerned about the constant creep of ever more invasive tyranny, when do things like this go from being despicable acts to being acts of patriotism? *Someone* will have to be that guy that takes the shot at the person they aren't supposed to shoot at. If we always condemn shooters that take down authority figures, why would anybody actually risk being that guy? Just wondering out loud.

I understand your point.
I think there will be a lot of individual patriots go down, before a group stands together.

And how will the media paint it?

Scores Killed, Hundreds Injured as Para-military Extremists Riot


BOSTON, April 20 -National guard units seeking to confiscate a cache of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law enforcement sources estimate that 72 were killed and more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals," issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure law and order. The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed widespread refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and ammunition earlier in the week.

This decision followed a meeting in early April between government and military leaders at which the governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists obeyed the law and turned over their weapons voluntarily."

Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the :armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called, upon citizens to support the state/national joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and leading the attack against the government troops. Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

[donnay]

Here is the latest spin I am sure some of you will gleefully chuckle. I was wondering how long it would take these people to implicate Alex Jones. :rolleyes:

Suspect in officers' shooting was into conspiracy theories
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960750-53.stm

Sunday, April 05, 2009
By Dennis B. Roddy, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Richard Andrew Poplawski was a young man convinced the nation was secretly controlled by a cabal that would eradicate freedom of speech, take away his guns and use the military to enslave the citizenry.

His online profile suggests someone at once lonely and seething. He wrote of burning the backs of both of his hands, the first time with a cigarette, the second time for symmetry. He subscribed to conspiracy theories and, by January 2007, was posting photographs of his tattoos on white supremacist Web site Stormfront. Among his ambitions: "to accumulate enough 'I punched that [expletive] so hard' stories to match my old man."

"Crazy to me is going through the motions," he wrote on his MySpace profile three years ago. "Crazy to me is letting each day slip past you. Crazy is being insignificant. Crazy is being obscure, pointless."

No longer obscure, the 22-year-old is charged in the worst police shooting in the modern history of Pittsburgh. No one is calling his actions anything but pointless.

"He was really into politics and really into the First and Second amendment. One thing he feared was he feared the gun ban because he thought that was going to take away peoples' right to defend themselves. He never spoke of going out to murder or to kill," said Edward Perkovic, who described himself as Mr. Poplawski's lifelong best friend.

Mr. Poplawski's view of guns and personal freedom took a turn toward the fringes of American politics. With Mr. Perkovic, he appeared to share a belief that the government was controlled from unseen forces, that troops were being shipped home from the Mideast to police the citizenry here, and that Jews secretly ran the country.

"We recently discovered that 30 states had declared sovereignty," said Mr. Perkovic, who lives in Lawrenceville. "One of his concerns was why were these major events in America not being reported to the public."

Believing most media were covering up important events, Mr. Poplawski turned to a far-right conspiracy Web site run by Alex Jones, a self-described documentarian with roots going back to the extremist militia movement of the early 1990s.

Around the same time, he joined Florida-based Stormfront, which has long been a clearinghouse Web site for far-right groups. He posted photographs of his tattoo, an eagle spread across his chest.

"I was considering gettin' life runes on the outside of my calfs," he wrote. Life runes are a common symbol among white supremacists, notably followers of The National Alliance, a neo-Nazi group linked to an array of violent organizations.

"For some time now there has been a pretty good connection between being sucked into this conspiracy world and propagating violence," said Heidi Beirich, director of research at the Southern Poverty Law Center and an expert on political extremists. She called Mr. Poplawski's act, "a classic example of what happens when you start buying all this conspiracy stuff."

Mr. Perkovic said Mr. Poplawski's parents had split when he was young.

"His dad's totally out of the picture," said Mr. Perkovic.

According to his MySpace profile online, Mr. Poplawski lived in Stanton Heights, was an avid Penguins fan, considered Mario Lemieux his hero, and held his grandmother, Catherine Poplawski, whom he called "Cukie," in warm esteem.

Mr. Perkovic said his friend essentially dropped out of North Catholic High School. Officials there would only say he was asked to leave.

After the 9/11 terrorist attacks -- a day before Mr. Poplawski's birthday -- he decided to join the military, stopped going to classes and pursued a general educational development certificate.

"In boot camp he had missed his girlfriend so he had to make a decision ... he got himself dishonorably discharged so he could come back," Mr. Perkovic said.

According to Mr. Perkovic, Mr. Poplawski tossed a lunch tray at a drill instructor.

The relationship with his girlfriend, Melissa Gladish, went sour after Mr. Poplawski returned to Pittsburgh.

Court records show that on Sept. 14, 2005, Mr. Poplawski attacked Miss Gladish outside 1016 Fairfield St., the same address at which he would later be accused of killing the three police officers.

Miss Gladish said she had gone to Mr. Poplawski's house "and he began to argue with me and call me names. When I argued back he grabbed me by my hair and said, 'Do you think I'm going to let you talk to me like that? I don't let anyone talk to me like that."'

He threatened to kill her, the records show. In a form asking Miss Gladish to list all weapons Mr. Poplawski had used, she listed "gun that the defendant says is buried in the park near his house."

Less than a month later, police sought Mr. Poplawski for violating a protection-from-abuse order after he went to Miss Gladish's workplace, a King's Restaurant, and asked her to marry him. He then moved to the West Palm Beach, Fla., area. Mr. Perkovic said he worked there as a glazier for two years.

Two years later, back in Pittsburgh, Mr. Poplawski wrote on MySpace of the episode: "She's lucky I didn't kill that broad myself. Hahaha."
Dennis Roddy can be reached at droddy@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1965.
First published on April 5, 2009 at 12:00 am

[torchbearer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7983894.stm


Mr Harper said the emergency call had been made by the gunman's mother, who had apparently stayed in the basement of the house during the whole incident

Looks like the mother called the cops, the son finds out and then prepares for the assault.
They were not shot until they entered the house.
Doesn't say if they broke down the door or they were let in...

I don't think he let them in, I don't see how he could shot both in the head without at least one them getting their weapon out too... assuming they didn't walk into his house with him opening the door holding a weapon out in the open.

[pcosmar]

"For some time now there has been a pretty good connection between being sucked into this conspiracy world and propagating violence," said Heidi Beirich, director of research at the Southern Poverty Law Center and an expert on political extremists. She called Mr. Poplawski's act, "a classic example of what happens when you start buying all this conspiracy stuff."

Well the SPLC.
Isn't that nice. I guess they have time now that they aren't compiling Fussion Center reports. :rolleyes:

Where is the interview with "Mom"?
or is she keeping her mouth shut on the advice of her lawyer?

[TheConstitutionLives]

You believe the shit you read in the news?
You haven't figured out the game yet? A guy wrote a book about it.. and someone made a movie about it called 1984.

- Just b/c you may have experienced some false reporting doesn't mean every single report is propaganda. We weren't there so we don't know the whole story but if was smacking around his girl then the cops' duty is to come to her aid. Cops protecting someone's rights is not government oppression.

[devil21]

LOL we should have known the SPLC would pop up somehow. The tidbit about how the shooter feared the zionist agenda probably had them scrambling for the phone to call the AP. They're always ready to paint anti-zionists as nutjobs.

[torchbearer]

- Just b/c you may have experienced some false reporting doesn't mean every single report is propaganda. We weren't there so we don't know the whole story but if smacking around his girl then the cops' duty is to come to her aid. Cops protecting someone's rights is not government oppression.

I don't say all reports are false, in fact, most are true, just distorted.
Notice that every report on this event is different? That should tell you something.

[TheConstitutionLives]

Notice that every report on this event is different? That should tell you something.

- Well, more information comes out as more investigations are done. That's every story. They didn't know much right after the event. The reporter in the CNN piece said there were rumors about him being a worried about 2nd Amendment encroachment. That wasn't spin. He even said that it's not been confirmed yet. Then, as time goes by, reporters and investigators research his history and see that he's not a respector of women and has a strong distaste for skin pigment that's a color other than his own. I'm not seeing how the story is changing as you're suggesting.

[torchbearer]

- Well, more information comes out as more investigations are done. That's every story. They didn't know much right after the event. The reporter in the CNN piece said there were rumors about him being a worried about 2nd Amendment encroachment. That wasn't spin. He even said that it's not been confirmed yet. Then, as time goes by, reporters and investigators research his history and see that he's not a respector of women and has a strong distaste for skin pigment that's a color other than his own. I'm not seeing how the story is changing as you're suggesting.

"They didn't know" yet the reported as if they did... not everyone follows the news like we do.
The info they get is disinfo and maybe later they might get a revised version if they see it again on fox news the next day.
But never is it the real story. It is suppositions paraded as facts.
Police can't comment because its an ongoing investigation.
The family can't talk because their lawyers won't let them.
So the reporter takes the words of neighbors who probably don't know what happened, but tell the reporter's their theories.
Viola.. you have news.

[nate895]

If the reports are true, this guy sounds like a scumbag. Get ready to be painted as someone just like this guy if the government actually does come for your guns. You will be a racist, misogynist, terrorist, and an extremist.

[tangent4ronpaul]

somehow I'm reminded of this...

In 1985, 13-year-old Birdie Africa, as Ward was then called, ran naked from
the burning MOVE complex in West Philadelphia ...

Ward, who will turn 34 next week, still bears burn scars on his abdomen,
arms and face. But he acknowledged that he had long ago moved past the
day - May 13 - when police dropped a satchel of explosives on the radical
group's fortified rowhouse headquarters. City officials allowed the resulting
fire to burn, destroying 61 houses. (actually it was supposed to be a firebomb - also they were enforcing nanny state health and child welfare regulations... Good reasons to murder 7 people and burn down 10 city blocks - right?)

Or that 14 year girl that was assasinated by DEA agents who had her dad under serveilence. She was pulling arround the car to the back of the house.

or all the people (many due to wrong addresses) who have been murdered by SWAT teams...

and on and on...

-t

[ramallamamama]

The media spin points to COINTELPRO involvement, demonizing those that are 'awake' and in the 'truth' movement. Linking Jones who is non-violent excepting in matters of self defense with stormfront is absurd. Now sheep seeing people that are pro 2a, prep and speak of an out of control government are suspect.

Batten down the hatches...

[GunnyFreedom]

That is true. The media no longer fact checks, researches, or investigates.

Sure they do -- it's just that nowadays they toss the TRUE stories into the memory hole instead of the UNTRUE ones.

[Minarchy4Sale]

Brace yourselves. The tighter the clamps get, the more people are going to snap, and the tighter the clamps will get... ... ...

Youd think someone would figure this out.

[donnay]

The media spin points to COINTELPRO involvement, demonizing those that are 'awake' and in the 'truth' movement. Linking Jones who is non-violent excepting in matters of self defense with stormfront is absurd. Now sheep seeing people that are pro 2a, prep and speak of an out of control government are suspect.

Batten down the hatches...

You know I wondered how long it was going to take before Jones was implemented in a conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:

[ramallamamama]

You know I wondered how long it was going to take before Jones was implemented in a conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:
You mean the official story isn't that he's a Zionist troll, Vatican apologist, CIA/Mossad operative? ;)

[sailor]

(this is a bit off-topic but I think it makes sense given the subject)

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment (no pun intended), at what point does the next American Revolution start? When is the next "shot heard around the world"? Im in no way advocating or condoning what this guy did but if we are concerned about the constant creep of ever more invasive tyranny, when do things like this go from being despicable acts to being acts of patriotism? *Someone* will have to be that guy that takes the shot at the person they aren't supposed to shoot at. If we always condemn shooters that take down authority figures, why would anybody actually risk being that guy? Just wondering out loud.

Usually it happens after they fire on peacuful protesters.

[GunnyFreedom]

Usually it happens after they fire on peacuful protesters.

I don't think it's gonna be that clear cut.

I think it's gonna start getting hairy after the dollar collapses. Now the narco-gangs will have an even more crucial commodity to black-market: food.

in the midst of ordinary neighborhoods banding together to protect their food stores, now we will have mercenaries coming in allegedly to fight gangs and black market food, but just shooting up anything in sight.

Now, the neighborhoods start fighting off gangs AND mercenaries, and what's left of government troops come in to protect the mercenaries.

then, of course, it just gets all kinds of ugly.

So no, I really don't think it'll be all that clear cut.

[donnay]

You mean the official story isn't that he's a Zionist troll, Vatican apologist, CIA/Mossad operative? ;)

No, now the official story is he is a far-right, conspiracy extremist in a militia movement and a self-described documentarian. :rolleyes:

[ramallamamama]

No, now the official story is he is a far-right, conspiracy extremist in a militia movement and a self-described documentarian. :rolleyes:
Well I'm sure glad that's been cleared up.

[sailor]

Is anybody else concerned this person was in the military? He passed all their pyscho tests. How many people like him are in the Corps? Many I think. I think a lot of the rank and file are hung go, trigger happy, perpetual teenager types that just want to "blow shit up". And I think the military just loves them that way.

[GunnyFreedom]

Is anybody else concerned this person was in the military? He passed all their pyscho tests. How many people like him are in the Corps? Many I think. I think a lot of the rank and file are hung go, trigger happy, perpetual teenager types that just want to "blow shit up". And I think the military just loves them that way.

Hell no, this guy was a MARINE? do you have a source on that? I figured him for Army from the story. But then, Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine, so who knows.

I dunno about the Army, but I can speak from experience that "hung go, trigger happy, perpetual teenager types that just want to "blow shit up"" are decidedly not what the USMC is looking for.

[Bman]

Is anybody else concerned this person was in the military? He passed all their pyscho tests. How many people like him are in the Corps? Many I think. I think a lot of the rank and file are hung go, trigger happy, perpetual teenager types that just want to "blow shit up". And I think the military just loves them that way.

Concerned? I think being trained to point and shoot a weapon on order without any questions is pyschotic.

[donnay]

Hell no, this guy was a MARINE? do you have a source on that? I figured him for Army from the story. But then, Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine, so who knows.

I dunno about the Army, but I can speak from experience that "hung go, trigger happy, perpetual teenager types that just want to "blow shit up"" are decidedly not what the USMC is looking for.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09094/960660-100.stm


"Poplawski had once tried to join the Marines, but was kicked out of boot camp after throwing a food tray at a drill sergeant, Perkovic said.""

[GunnyFreedom]

Concerned? I think being trained to point and shoot a weapon on order without any questions is pyschotic.

Whereas the Marines bend over backwards (in my admittedly limited experience in the Corps) to encourage Marines to throw the "bullshit flag" if given inappropriate orders. We even had Military Law classes in Boot Camp regarding the UCMJ to learn how and when to question orders, and to determine when orders were proper or improper.

[sailor]

Hell no, this guy was a MARINE? do you have a source on that? I figured him for Army from the story. But then, Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine, so who knows.

It is on Wikipedia. They reference an AP article.


I dunno about the Army, but I can speak from experience that "hung go, trigger happy, perpetual teenager types that just want to "blow shit up"" are decidedly not what the USMC is looking for.

I`m sure you`d know more about it than me. But it was the impression I got from my admitedly limited exposure to military people...

[ramallamamama]

Is anybody else concerned this person was in the military? He passed all their pyscho tests. How many people like him are in the Corps? Many I think. I think a lot of the rank and file are hung go, trigger happy, perpetual teenager types that just want to "blow shit up". And I think the military just loves them that way.

He wasn't the .mil type. He probably wasn't supposed to have guns because he abused his gf, etc and had a line in the sand that the cops crossed when he perceived his 2a right was going to be violated. Tragic.


"In boot camp he had missed his girlfriend so he had to make a decision ... he got himself dishonorably discharged so he could come back," Mr. Perkovic said.

According to Mr. Perkovic, Mr. Poplawski tossed a lunch tray at a drill instructor.

The relationship with his girlfriend, Melissa Gladish, went sour after Mr. Poplawski returned to Pittsburgh.

[GunnyFreedom]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09094/960660-100.stm


"Poplawski had once tried to join the Marines, but was kicked out of boot camp after throwing a food tray at a drill sergeant, Perkovic said.""

I see that he supported John McCain; but I read every word of that article, and no mention of his branch of Service was made. I even did a text-search for "Marine" and "Army," but neither term existed in the article.

I just caught the quote above that I saw in a different article - TRIED TO JOIN the Marines but was KICKED OUT of Boot Camp.

Hell no this guy wasn't a Marine!

In Boot Camp, they do everything in their power to forcibly separate the racists etc.

I'm willing to bet that he probably had some white supremacist tattoo somewhere that was vague enough to pass the enlistment requirement; but then when he got to MCRD, the Drill Instructors provoked him into exposing his supremacist leanings; whereupon they began to unleash hell on him until he finally threw the tray at the DI in frustration, thus earning him a bus ride home.

[GunnyFreedom]

It is on Wikipedia. They reference an AP article.



I`m sure you`d know more about it than me. But it was the impression I got from my admitedly limited exposure to military people...

Apparently he TRIED to join the Marines but got kicked out of Boot Camp. Now THAT I can believe. Very very rarely do extremist nutters make it past USMC Boot Camp, and if for some strange reason they do, they are usually given irrelevant and non-violent duties - like mess hall duty.

[Bman]

Whereas the Marines bend over backwards (in my admittedly limited experience in the Corps) to encourage Marines to throw the "bullshit flag" if given inappropriate orders. We even had Military Law classes in Boot Camp regarding the UCMJ to learn how and when to question orders, and to determine when orders were proper or improper.

You'll have to excuse me Gunny. Being raised a conscientious objector I find it confusing why anyone would join the war machine this government has advocated over my lifetime.

It is good to hear at least that they are teaching that questioning orders is allowed.

[GunnyFreedom]

PS - for the record, being kicked out of Marine Corps Boot Camp does NOT make one a "Marine" :rolleyes:

[sailor]

I'm willing to bet that he probably had some white supremacist tattoo somewhere that was vague enough to pass the enlistment requirement; but then when he got to MCRD, the Drill Instructors provoked him into exposing his supremacist leanings; whereupon they began to unleash hell on him until he finally threw the tray at the DI in frustration, thus earning him a bus ride home.

If that were the case however then they would have been bullies and in the wrong.

[GunnyFreedom]

You'll have to excuse me Gunny. Being raised a conscientious objector I find it confusing why anyone would join the war machine this government has advocated over my lifetime.

It is good to hear at least that they are teaching that questioning orders is allowed.

I was raised a Constitutionalist Patriot; despising the way the powers that be trampled on the Constitution, but also desiring to serve my country. So I picked the service that 1) was the most challenging, and 2) was the most likely to actually UPHOLD that oath to "support and defend the US Constitution against all enemies..."

I have no problem with conscientious objectors; we certainly ought all be free to beieve as we like; and I am willing to bet that Buddhists are even MORE conscientious than you... which group I respect

But I will make the point, that if all we ever had in the US were conscientious objectors, then we'd still be a British Colony under royal governance....

[Bman]

If that were the case however then they would have been bullies and in the wrong.

One of my uncle's was given a dishonerable discharge from the Marines for slapping his drill seargant who was trying to make him get in deep water, when he could not swim.

[Bman]

I was raised a Constitutionalist Patriot; despising the way the powers that be trampled on the Constitution, but also desiring to serve my country. So I picked the service that 1) was the most challenging, and 2) was the most likely to actually UPHOLD that oath to "support and defend the US Constitution against all enemies..."

I have no problem with conscientious objectors; we certainly ought all be free to beieve as we like; and I am willing to bet that Buddhists are even MORE conscientious than you... which group I respect

But I will make the point, that if all we ever had in the US were conscientious objectors, then we'd still be a British Colony under royal governance....

It's not disrespect that I feel. Just confusion. I certainly have no problem with one who wants to serve in defense.

I don't have any problem with who you are Gunny. I know your a good person.

[GunnyFreedom]

If that were the case however then they would have been bullies and in the wrong.

LOL no way! I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!

the last thing I need on my left or my right in combat is a liability. Do I have to watch Joe because he may take the opportunity to "friendly fire" Jamal?

If I am in combat, then I don't have time for that crap. Better to shake all the nutters out in Boot Camp so's you don't have to worry about them going off all half-cocked in a personal mission "to kill all the brownies" when the heat of battle is on.

LOL, calling that 'wrong' reminds me of the idea of being politically correct. NO WAY do I want the Drill Instructors to pass on a nutter that may become a serious liability in combat!

Wow man, what you are saying here is as dead wrong as wrong can get.

It's the DI's SWORN DUTY, in addition to making sure the recruits pass, to make sure that the people who don't belong, don't make it.

I am no longer in the service, but I will tell you if I ever had to go to combat with an active Service, it will ONLY be the Marines, and specifically BECAUSE they weed out the nutters in Boot Camp.

[sailor]

PS - for the record, being kicked out of Marine Corps Boot Camp does NOT make one a "Marine" :rolleyes:

However that begs the question... If he was not a marine, why the need to discharge him?

[GunnyFreedom]

It's not disrespect that I feel. Just confusion. I certainly have no problem with one who wants to serve in defense.

I don't have any problem with who you are Gunny. I know your a good person.

Oh I didn't take you for disrespect at all, and if I made it look that way I apologize.

The reality is that the further and further our government departs from the Constitution, the more and more appalling military service appears. It's a direct result of the failure of government and not the function of the services.

On another note, you might be surprised to learn that I agree with the Founders that having a standing army is a bad bad thing. Personally, I would like to see our force structure reduced to maybe 10%-20% of current size, tasking them with logistics preparation for a FULL SIZE army; training militia; and then funding the Constitutional volunteer militia to nearly the same degree that the DOD is currently funded. ie - setting up "volunteer militia posts" similar to volunteer fire departments etc.

[GunnyFreedom]

However that begs the question... If he was not a marine, why the need to discharge him?

lulz - he was a "recruit" not that I expect you to understand the difference. :)

[sailor]

LOL no way! I couldn't possibly disagree with you more!

the last thing I need on my left or my right in combat is a liability. Do I have to watch Joe because he may take the opportunity to "friendly fire" Jamal?

If I am in combat, then I don't have time for that crap. Better to shake all the nutters out in Boot Camp so's you don't have to worry about them going off all half-cocked in a personal mission "to kill all the brownies" when the heat of battle is on.

LOL, calling that 'wrong' reminds me of the idea of being politically correct. NO WAY do I want the Drill Instructors to pass on a nutter that may become a serious liability in combat!

Wow man, what you are saying here is as dead wrong as wrong can get.

It's the DI's SWORN DUTY, in addition to making sure the recruits pass, to make sure that the people who don't belong, don't make it.

I am no longer in the service, but I will tell you if I ever had to go to combat with an active Service, it will ONLY be the Marines, and specifically BECAUSE they weed out the nutters in Boot Camp.

Marine Corps is not a private club. It is a state buerocracy.

The drill instuctor is a government employee and a buerocrat.

Buerocracies should treat everyone the same and according to their formal rules.

If a white supremacist is a potential liability for the buerocracy called the marine corps then define what consitutes a white supremacist and formaly expell him for being one.

But for the buerocrat to sneakily decide the person he has power over is not fit (and not to his liking) albeit he is fit according to the formal rules of the buerocracy whose rules he is supposed to uphold and deciding to bully and frustrate him into breaking a rule with a view to expell him for that is something else entirely.

It is something that is usually thought of as corruption and abuse of power. If that becomes permissible, then why would it be any less permisible for a white supremacist DI in an earlier age to attempt to bully a black recruit into a breach of discipline in order to get a pretext to eject him?


And what if we were instead talking about, say a public school teacher bullying a white supremacist pupil in order to get a pretext to expell him??

[Bman]

Oh I didn't take you for disrespect at all, and if I made it look that way I apologize.

The reality is that the further and further our government departs from the Constitution, the more and more appalling military service appears. It's a direct result of the failure of government and not the function of the services.

On another note, you might be surprised to learn that I agree with the Founders that having a standing army is a bad bad thing. Personally, I would like to see our force structure reduced to maybe 10%-20% of current size, tasking them with logistics preparation for a FULL SIZE army; training militia; and then funding the Constitutional volunteer militia to nearly the same degree that the DOD is currently funded. ie - setting up "volunteer militia posts" similar to volunteer fire departments etc.

You didn't make it look that way. I just thought I should clarify before I possibly give the wrong idea.

I find the rest of the remarks agreeable.

My personal rejection of military service is 1/2 upbringing from my Mom's families religion (Christian-Church of the Brethren), 1/2 what I know of my fathers service in Vietnam.

[GunnyFreedom]

Marine Corps is not a private club. It is a state buerocracy.

The drill instuctor is a government employee and a buerocrat.

Buerocracies should treat everyone the same and according to their formal rules.

If a white supremacist is a potential liability for the buerocracy called the marine corps then define what consitutes a white supremacist and formaly expell him for being one.

But for the buerocrat to sneakily decide the person he has power over is not fit (and not to his liking) albeit he is fit according to the formal rules of the buerocracy whose rules he is supposed to uphold and deciding to bully and frustrate him into breaking a rule with a view to expell him for that is something else entirely.

It is something that is usually thought of as corruption and abuse of power. If that becomes permissible, then why would it be any less permisible for a white supremacist DI in an earlier age to attempt to bully a black recruit into a breach of discipline in order to get a pretext to eject him?


And what if we were instead talking about, say a public school teacher bullying a white supremacist pupil in order to get a pretext to expell him??

ROFL! A Drill Instructor as a "bureaucrat"
LOL! Demanding that Drill Instructors treat everybody the same

wow man, not only don't you get it, but I seriously doubt my ability to articulate it for you. And I pretty much NEVER admit that sort of defeat.

Never in my life have I heard a rational person argue that DI's should treat everybody equally, and never in my life have i ever heard ANYBODY argue that they are bureaucrats.

I'm bright enough to SEE your line of reason; but all it's provoking in me is fits of laughter.

Maybe when I'm able to stop laughing I'll be able to articulate something you can digest...but don't hold your breath. I may NEVER be able to stop laughing at th idea of Drill Instructors being government bureaucrats.

[GunnyFreedom]

You didn't make it look that way. I just thought I should clarify before I possibly give the wrong idea.

I find the rest of the remarks agreeable.

My personal rejection of military service is 1/2 upbringing from my Mom's families religion (Christian-Church of the Brethren), 1/2 what I know of my fathers service in Vietnam.

I can certainly understand that. Vietnam was another undeclared and unconstitutional war, and certainly subject to the same problems we see today.

WW2 was the last all-committed declared war we fought in America, and some even argue against that one.

Nevertheless, being at least a Constitutionally declared war, it was fought differently, and notice that even though we were facing MUCH tougher odds in WW2, it was over a lot quicker than Vietnam or Iraq...

[GunnyFreedom]

Marine Corps is not a private club. It is a state buerocracy.

The drill instuctor is a government employee and a buerocrat.

Buerocracies should treat everyone the same and according to their formal rules.

If a white supremacist is a potential liability for the buerocracy called the marine corps then define what consitutes a white supremacist and formaly expell him for being one.

But for the buerocrat to sneakily decide the person he has power over is not fit (and not to his liking) albeit he is fit according to the formal rules of the buerocracy whose rules he is supposed to uphold and deciding to bully and frustrate him into breaking a rule with a view to expell him for that is something else entirely.

It is something that is usually thought of as corruption and abuse of power. If that becomes permissible, then why would it be any less permisible for a white supremacist DI in an earlier age to attempt to bully a black recruit into a breach of discipline in order to get a pretext to eject him?


And what if we were instead talking about, say a public school teacher bullying a white supremacist pupil in order to get a pretext to expell him??

OK let me try, Drill Instructors are specifically and intentionally given the duty to weed out anybody who, according to their experience, would be a liability in combat. they have a variety of tools to use to do the weeding out.

My take on your series of questions here, is that you have never met the business end of a Drill Instructor...

[tangent4ronpaul]

mmmm... ok - almost 3 pages of USMC is GOD posts... could we refocus on the topic please?

-t

[sailor]

OK let me try, Drill Instructors are specifically and intentionally given the duty to weed out anybody who, according to their experience, would be a liability in combat. they have a variety of tools to use to do the weeding out.

My take on your series of questions here, is that you have never met the business end of a Drill Instructor...

I couldn`t care less about what "duty" the drill instructor is given. In the scenario you put forth the recruit would have been singled out and therefore treated unfairly.

Ideally there would be no buerocracies and therefore discrimination from and by anyone would be fine. But as long as we do have them, they should follow their own rules and treat everyone who complies with their rules fairly and alike.

Nothing less is permisable.


My take on your series of questions here, is that you have never met the business end of a Drill Instructor...

Entirely irrelevant. Buerocracy is a buerocracy is a buerocracy. What is next, the taxman being given some mystical duty to ensure the state gets its fair cut then harrassing you albeit your tax report is in perfect order because he just "knows" you are whitholding some cash? A social worker refusing to grant you welfare albeit your application is in perfect order because he just "knows" you don`t deserve it and he has been given the duty to weed out the fakes? You make it try to be an exceptional case, but there is nothing exceptional about it. Yes buerocracies are inefficient, inhumane and unrealistic in large part because they do things by the letter and do not allow for personal discretion but that is an argument to disband buerocracies. Not an argument to have corrupt buerocracies with state employees positioned as little emperors, deciding over matters with personal discretion from a position of power.