PDA

View Full Version : STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.




Pages : [1] 2

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 07:37 AM
[rph -edit, I have just gone through the thread with a chainsaw and did my best to clean out the offtopic, low value, insulting posts. My apologies if I cut too deeply in places]


STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.

Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.

When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me. I have opened her eyes to the bullshit between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind. After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing. Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.

We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
If the system was changed SO would the teaching.

THERE ARE A LOT of GOOD teachers and cops WE NEED their support to fight TYRANNY.

Truth Warrior
04-02-2009, 07:52 AM
STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.

Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.

When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me. I have opened her eyes to the bullshit between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind. After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing. Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.

We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
If the system was changed SO would the teaching.

THERE ARE A LOT of GOOD teachers and cops WE NEED their support to fight TYRANNY. The cops and teachers are willingly working WITHIN the current "system". That makes them PART of the TYRANNY problem.<IMHO>

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 07:56 AM
The cops and teachers are willingly working WITHIN the current "system". That makes them PART of the problem.

They too have been INDOCTRINATED.
How many cops and teachers are out there?
You can open their minds to the system they are in.
Don't you want people on the inside fighting the system?

AutoDas
04-02-2009, 07:57 AM
Not if you're a saboteur.


The cops and teachers are willingly working WITHIN the current "system". That makes them PART of the TYRANNY problem.<IMHO>

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 07:59 AM
Did you know the Teachers HERE are Required to uphold the constitution to get their licence?

Truth Warrior
04-02-2009, 08:00 AM
Not if you're a saboteur. Yep, there's TONS of those. :rolleyes:

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 08:02 AM
They too have been INDOCTRINATED.
How many cops and teachers are out there?
You can open their minds to the system they are in.
Don't you want people on the inside fighting the system?

Right. There just doing their jobs.

http://pro.corbis.com/images/AU002664.jpg?size=67&uid={70836eda-a4fd-4a15-9e6d-46cfe5fa0803}

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/t/9/krakow53.jpg

ChaosControl
04-02-2009, 08:08 AM
I agree with the OP.
Really too many here are intent on making everyone their enemy. If everyone is your enemy, you'll have no friends and one hell of a big army to fight against alone.

There are plenty of excellent teachers and plenty of cops who really care about their community and helping keep it safe. If anything I'd say the bad ones are the minority and the system is the problem. It is like a lot of things where the few bad things are the only things talked about while the good stuff is ignored, bad news seems to sell better than good news.

Kludge
04-02-2009, 08:17 AM
Eh, collectivism is alive and well here.

Teachers who follow absurd rules should be attacked, but how many really do? How many teachers would really call the authorities because Jon came to school with a few aspirin, less the three or four we trumpet on the news?

How many cops would really pull you over for having a Ron Paul bumper sticker??

They are street-level bureaucrats. They have orders. They can choose whether or not to follow those orders, depending on how/if they're being monitored.

Public schools get a bum rap here, too. Caveat emptor. No school is the same. They have different textbooks, standards, school boards, and teachers. There are multiple tools on the Internet to research a school, and if you don't research where your child will be educated for ~12 years, you are failing them.

I'm not saying that the NCLB Act and other federal mandates aren't hampering education, but it's really not as bad as it's often painted; that parents ought to be jailed for sending their kids to public school, and public high school graduates are unable to do basic math. It's absurd propaganda -- probably the same bullshit those parents will drill into their poor child's head if they home school (and I'm not saying that all home-schooling parents would do this). I have even read arguments here which suggest parents should indoctrinate their kids in the name of "liberty", justifying it because public schools supposedly indoctrinate kids to worship the State, which is complete bullshit.

Truth Warrior
04-02-2009, 08:19 AM
I agree with the OP.
Really too many here are intent on making everyone their enemy. If everyone is your enemy, you'll have no friends and one hell of a big army to fight against alone.

There are plenty of excellent teachers and plenty of cops who really care about their community and helping keep it safe. If anything I'd say the bad ones are the minority and the system is the problem. It is like a lot of things where the few bad things are the only things talked about while the good stuff is ignored, bad news seems to sell better than good news.


Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book download is NOW FREE TO ALL!!!
Right click and "Save Link As"
Click here to begin download
File is 6.75 MB (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf)

newbitech
04-02-2009, 08:23 AM
STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.

Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.

When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me. I have opened her eyes to the bullshit between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind. After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing. Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.

We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
If the system was changed SO would the teaching.

THERE ARE A LOT of GOOD teachers and cops WE NEED their support to fight TYRANNY.

I don't like the way you are shaping your argument. You need to give some specific example.

How about stop attacking supporters who speak the truth that your friends can't swallow?

Truth Warrior
04-02-2009, 08:32 AM
I don't like the way you are shaping your argument. You need to give some specific example.

How about stop attacking supporters who speak the truth that your friends can't swallow?

The Martial Law Mind-Set by William Norman Grigg (http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w84.html)

newbitech
04-02-2009, 08:33 AM
Did you know the Teachers HERE are Required to uphold the constitution to get their licence?


did you know that BHO was a constitutional law professor? Regarding your teachers, you say they are required to uphold the constitution. Required by whom? If they are required to uphold the constitution by your state reps, well what is your states record in upholding constitutional principles?

Republicans traditionally supported eliminating the Department of Education. This is not an attack on teachers. Republicans also traditionally support the second amendment and the law restricting the government from interfering with gun ownership.

Standing up for free market education and standing up for gun ownership is not an attack on teachers and cops. It is a defense of our inalienable right to seek knowledge, wisdom, and protection of the government's sometimes tyrannical authority that many find offensive. Unfortunately for those educators and law enforcement folks who fall on the wrong side of this debate, they will become a visible target of the freedom movement simply because their views are inconsistent with constitutional principles.

Each individual teacher and cop has choices to make. The attack is not on those folks personally, and if they take it personally its because their status quo views of government and their role of authority and control has been upset. This will be true regardless if someone holds them to the constitution and espcially true if the person who is requiring them to follow the constitution also does not hold the correct understanding or is completely ignorant of constitutional principles.

moostraks
04-02-2009, 08:41 AM
Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book download is NOW FREE TO ALL!!!
Right click and "Save Link As"
Click here to begin download
File is 6.75 MB (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf)

Hey THANKS!!! I had wanted to read this book...Looks like its published right around the corner from me.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 08:51 AM
Anyone here happy about the MIAC report?

Why would we profile people? I thought we were all here because we understood that we're all different?

Oh, yeah, there are tons of saboteurs, says TW, and rolls his eyes. How do we know there aren't? Do you think the ones dumb enough to advertise what they're doing to short-circuit the 'official message' are still employed?

Most Missouri cops are conservatives. Do we do better to demonize and so disaffect them and piss them off at us, or do we do better to tell them, hey, they're trying to get you to gig your own--don't listen to them?

All Bilderbergers and CFR members are the enemy? That I might believe. All cops and teachers are the enemy? All of them? Yer nuts.

Justinjj1
04-02-2009, 08:53 AM
I am a high school government teacher and a Ron Paul supporter. Glad to know that Truth Warrior considers me part of the tyranny.

RevolutionSD
04-02-2009, 08:56 AM
Teachers and cops are getting paid with stolen loot. If they realize this and continue with their occupation then they are a huge source of the problem.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 08:58 AM
I am a high school government teacher and a Ron Paul supporter. Glad to know that Truth Warrior considers me part of the tyranny.

Nice to have you here. I would be grateful if, when you have the time, you'd start a thread detailing some of the pressures you face to stick to the 'official line'. I think that would go a long way toward helping people here understand, one, how that works and, two, why we should be eternally grateful to those of you who work to buck it.

But not if it would endanger your position! Getting at least a few kids some proper education is more important that straightening this lot out, imo.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 09:03 AM
I agree with the OP.
Really too many here are intent on making everyone their enemy. If everyone is your enemy, you'll have no friends and one hell of a big army to fight against alone.

There are plenty of excellent teachers and plenty of cops who really care about their community and helping keep it safe. If anything I'd say the bad ones are the minority and the system is the problem. It is like a lot of things where the few bad things are the only things talked about while the good stuff is ignored, bad news seems to sell better than good news.

I have absolutely nothing against teachers in general, nearly all of them that I talk to are completely frustrated with the school system anyways. Cops on the other hand are complete assholes. I have one friend who is a cop and he agrees with me that they are all assholes, he doesn't hang out with any of his co-workers because he cannot stand how they act. He doesn't get offended because he agrees 100%. From his own mouth they are elitist jerks and see themselves as above citizens, they will not hang out with people who aren't cops or aren't cop familys. They are not the minority of cops, not in Texas. Now setting aside their jerk attitude, not everyone here submits to all the bullshit rules like many of you seem to do. Ron Paul calls it civil disobedience, and he finds this form of peaceful protest respectable as I do. Because I choose to do this, cops choose to deprive me of my liberty and use violence against me. For me ANY interaction with a cop could easily lead to the loss of my job once and if I make it through to the other end of the bullshit legal system. I do not harm or even inconvience anyone, yet they choose to do this because they are following orders.

So who is making who their enemy? They don't have to avoid me or risk being thrown in jail, I do.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 09:06 AM
I am a high school government teacher and a Ron Paul supporter. Glad to know that Truth Warrior considers me part of the tyranny.

Warrior Do you want this soldier for the fight of freedom to go away?

It's the system NOT the Individual we need to focus on!!!!!!
NEOCONS are doing enough to trash individual teachers.

YES there is intentional dumbing down of our students, but it is the system that advocates it NOT most of the individual teachers.

DO NOT CAST the first stone at teachers if you

EVER had a government job
EVER took a government back student loan
EVER use the post office
EVER went on unemployment
EVER used a public park
EVER bla bla bla........

Kludge
04-02-2009, 09:07 AM
I am a high school government teacher and a Ron Paul supporter. Glad to know that Truth Warrior considers me part of the tyranny.

Woot. I intend to say that in four years :)

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 09:15 AM
I have one friend who is a cop and he agrees with me that they are all assholes, he doesn't hang out with any of his co-workers...

:D

Never say never. Also never say 'all' or 'always'.

Your friend agrees with you that he's an asshole. Why do I doubt this? Could it be because instead of hanging around with his coworkers he hangs with you? ;)

Kraig
04-02-2009, 09:18 AM
:D

Never say never. Also never say 'all' or 'always'.

Your friend agrees with you that he's an asshole. Why do I doubt this? Could it be because instead of hanging around with his coworkers he hangs with you? ;)

We hardly hang out anymore, old friends from highschool but we do keep in touch. My shitty use of language aside, as far as he knows all of his co-workers fit the pig description. No of course not every single cop in Texas, I was just trying to say that the bad cops are NOT the minority, and their reputation precedes them.

I can forgive ignorance and apathy on a personal level up until the ignorant are using violence against me. That is what cops do, that is their job. I really don't think you comprehend what it is like to risk going to jail.

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 09:18 AM
Warrior Do you want this soldier for the fight of freedom to go away?

.
How can you identify the enemy if not by the uniform they wear?

How do I know that the enemy soldier is really a" nice guy" and concerned for my freedom?

YES there is intentional dumbing down of our students, but it is the system that advocates it NOT most of the individual teachers.

False. Most are perpetuating lies. A FEW may be on our side. But they are very few.

BillyDkid
04-02-2009, 09:26 AM
This issue is being confused. Most teachers as far as I know are very fine individuals and are typical of the cross section of America. Teachers are us and just as we are, they are compelled to work within the system. That doesn't mean that school system who set up ridiculous rules - no touching, zero tolerance and so on - and individual examples of a teacher exibiting that kind of thinking and behavior should not be highlighted. Likewise, there are very fine people working in law enforcement, but examples of individual officers abusing their power over the rest of us should be brought to light. How else can we hope to have this behavior changed across the board without highlights examples of bad police behavior. It's not an indictment of all police and all good police should be happy to see the bad apples exposed.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 09:28 AM
I don't like the precedent you're trying to start here. Very STATIST of you. :(:p Please rethink it. ~hugs~ HB34

was it the, its the system not the individuals line?

That's what is bothering me about this thread. I think this thread is baiting and divisive to be honest. Teachers like the one who posted in this thread have a lot of work to do to get their profession turned around in the eyes of liberty.

Certainly all teachers and schools aren't the worst. We need a fundamental change to the system that starts by getting big government the hell out of it. The people with the largest stake in this battle is held by parents. Schools aren't going to listen to teachers before they listen to their state reps who fund them. However schools would listen to the parents of the kids who fund the states who fund the schools.

So a school teacher in the revolution is not going to be so much concerned with educating the kids are they are going to be concerned with educating the parents. I am not a teacher, but my logic tells me that teachers don't have a big voice in this battle. Therefor, I would assume that it would be in the best interest of the freedom teacher to lay low while on the job, regardless of the criticism of the system and SOME PEOPLES perceived wrongful attack of ALL TEACHERS.

I wouldn't want to fight that as a teacher, and I also think defending an institution is not as important as defending the country.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 09:29 AM
I really don't think you comprehend what it is like to risk going to jail.

Oh, come on Kraig. In this day and age, the legal code is such a mess that ignorance of the law is the norm--because no one can remember and understand it all. The way they're passing laws, it's becoming nearly impossible to walk down the sidewalk without violating one or two. Don't think I don't know what those bars look like from the other side.

We're all in the same boat, Kraig. I'm just saying that your friend is proof that there's no such thing as 100%, and that the OP is correct in asserting that we must not discourage that wonderful two percent (or whatever) that are fighting for us!!

Justinjj1
04-02-2009, 09:29 AM
haha, jesus.

This is my 5th year teaching. I make $31,500 a year to teach kids about the Constitution and the founding fathers. I don't exactly go home and roll around in "stolen loot". I support Ron Paul's position on doing away with the Department of Education and NCLB, but I had no idea a lot of his supporters considered all public education tyrannical. In fact I'm pretty sure most of the founding fathers understood the importance of education to a free society.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 09:32 AM
I don't like the precedent you're trying to start here. Very STATIST of you. :(:p Please rethink it. ~hugs~ HB34

Lool STATIST :)

I would love to see the demise of the whole system.
I just don't want to make every individual a BOOGIEMAN.
How do you expect to bring in supporters if you make them as this evil creature?

Could you describe what precident you feel im trying to make?

VUK
04-02-2009, 09:33 AM
Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book download is NOW FREE TO ALL!!!
Right click and "Save Link As"
Click here to begin download
File is 6.75 MB (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf)

Thank you.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 09:37 AM
Ill stop criticizing teachers and cops when they stop behaving like communists and nazis.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 09:38 AM
We hardly hang out anymore, old friends from highschool but we do keep in touch. My shitty use of language aside, as far as he knows all of his co-workers fit the pig description. No of course not every single cop in Texas, I was just trying to say that the bad cops are NOT the minority, and their reputation precedes them.

I can forgive ignorance and apathy on a personal level up until the ignorant are using violence against me. That is what cops do, that is their job. I really don't think you comprehend what it is like to risk going to jail.


Violence on the physical level = Cops
Violence on the philosophical level = Teachers
Violence on the psychological level = Cops + Teachers
Cops + Teachers = THE SYSTEM

Teacher teach us that the system (AKA authority) is here to help us
Cops prove teacher wrong. This is a vicious cycle that starts at the elementary level. As adults, our experience with Cops teach us one way or another that the teacher was right, even tho the evidence of our cognitive dissonance proves the teacher was wrong. Yet thru the pressures of society and this massive societal cognitive dissonance we continue to trust our kids in the hands of a tyrannical system and pay for it thru our hard work.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 09:38 AM
Oh, come on Kraig. In this day and age, the legal code is such a mess that ignorance of the law is the norm--because no one can remember and understand it all. The way they're passing laws, it's becoming nearly impossible to walk down the sidewalk without violating one or two. Don't think I don't know what those bars look like from the other side.

We're all in the same boat, Kraig. I'm just saying that your friend is proof that there's no such thing as 100%, and that the OP is correct in asserting that we must not discourage that wonderful two percent (or whatever) that are fighting for us!!

Well some laws are enforced more than others, I think you would agree. I agree that there is no such thing as 100% (with sterotypes on groups of people), but I still can't afford to trust them in most cases. If they do want my trust or respect, step one is convincing me that they see the violence and tyranny commited on a daily basis by cops and that they agree it is blantently obvious and blatently out of control. Step two is convincing me that they will take no part in it. At that point I can trust that they won't pull a gun on me and once we reach that point a rational and friendly relationship is possible.

As long as they wear the uniform, the ball is in the court and I will avoid them at all costs until they make the extra effort. It's not worth the risk.

Dr.3D
04-02-2009, 09:41 AM
haha, jesus.

This is my 5th year teaching. I make $31,500 a year to teach kids about the Constitution and the founding fathers. I don't exactly go home and roll around in "stolen loot". I support Ron Paul's position on doing away with the Department of Education and NCLB, but I had no idea a lot of his supporters considered all public education tyrannical. In fact I'm pretty sure most of the founding fathers understood the importance of education to a free society.

Well, there is a fine line between education and indoctrination. The instructor should be very careful to consider the motives of those who push the governments indoctrination agenda through the educational materials they provide.

I believe education and government should be as separate as church and state.

An instructor should be on the look out for indoctrination and exclude it from the education they are supposed to provide. They should also be aware of the indoctrination they were exposed to when they went through school to get their degree to teach.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 09:41 AM
Violence on the physical level = Cops
Violence on the philosophical level = Teachers
Violence on the psychological level = Cops + Teachers
Cops + Teachers = THE SYSTEM

Teacher teach us that the system (AKA authority) is here to help us
Cops prove teacher wrong. This is a vicious cycle that starts at the elementary level. As adults, our experience with Cops teach us one way or another that the teacher was right, even tho the evidence of our cognitive dissonance proves the teacher was wrong. Yet thru the pressures of society and this massive societal cognitive dissonance we continue to trust our kids in the hands of a tyrannical system and pay for it thru our hard work.

See I don't have kids and I didn't go through the public school system so teachers have done me no personal harm. If I did have kids and I sent them through the system, I would have to blame myself 100% for it's failings and not the teacher. I blame the government for taxing me to pay for schools I will never use, but once again it's not the teachers doing this.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 09:45 AM
haha, jesus.

This is my 5th year teaching. I make $31,500 a year to teach kids about the Constitution and the founding fathers. I don't exactly go home and roll around in "stolen loot". I support Ron Paul's position on doing away with the Department of Education and NCLB, but I had no idea a lot of his supporters considered all public education tyrannical. In fact I'm pretty sure most of the founding fathers understood the importance of education to a free society.


B.S. now they start coming out of the woodwork. I am so sick of the attacks. Why don't you try being honest in this debate.


Its not tyrannical its a waste of my frigging money and is so broken as to be completely unworthy of my support or even consideration thereof.

I respect Liberty lovers, I do not respect public educators in general, not because of any personal issue, but because of the CONTENT and premise under which they teach.

I don't think the liberty movement needs constitutional teachers. I think constitutional teacher need the liberty movement. If these so called teachers who pop up out of nowhere to defend the profession are really part of the liberty movement, I am going to need to see more posting by them in non divisive threads and in support of other efforts to back the movement.

This entire thread is ridiculous and the premise is completely weak and unsupported. Not worthy of further debate IMO.

heavenlyboy34
04-02-2009, 09:47 AM
Lool STATIST :)

I would love to see the demise of the whole system.
I just don't want to make every individual a BOOGIEMAN.
How do you expect to bring in supporters if you make them as this evil creature?

Could you describe what precident you feel im trying to make?


I was referring specifically to this-

"DO NOT CAST the first stone at teachers if you

EVER had a government job
EVER took a government back student loan
EVER use the post office
EVER went on unemployment
EVER used a public park
EVER bla bla bla........"

This argument automatically kills most attempts at "reform" that RP and his ilk desire because most "reformers" fit into these categories. It kind of reminds me of people who used to lecture me about how I shouldn't disagree with the government because they "keep me safe" and "provide for my general welfare". :rolleyes::p

You're basically spinning an "appeal to authority" fallacy (like a good little Statist would). :p

Deborah K
04-02-2009, 09:48 AM
I agree with the OP.
Really too many here are intent on making everyone their enemy. If everyone is your enemy, you'll have no friends and one hell of a big army to fight against alone.


I agree. A lot of people on this forum are way too paranoid and way too exclusive. If you don't fit their exact mold of what a Ron Paul supporter should be, then you are the enemy! We can't afford to be turning people with open minds away.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 09:51 AM
B.S. now they start coming out of the woodwork. I am so sick of the attacks. Why don't you try being honest in this debate.


Its not tyrannical its a waste of my frigging money and is so broken as to be completely unworthy of my support or even consideration thereof.

I respect Liberty lovers, I do not respect public educators in general, not because of any personal issue, but because of the CONTENT and premise under which they teach.

I don't think the liberty movement needs constitutional teachers. I think constitutional teacher need the liberty movement. If these so called teachers who pop up out of nowhere to defend the profession are really part of the liberty movement, I am going to need to see more posting by them in non divisive threads and in support of other efforts to back the movement.

This entire thread is ridiculous and the premise is completely weak and unsupported. Not worthy of further debate IMO.

You catch more flies with Honey.....
What premise do you feel is weak?

newbitech
04-02-2009, 09:53 AM
You catch more flies with Honey.....
What premise do you feel is weak?

That one.

If you didn't have stinking rotting garbage stacked up around your house, you wouldn't be worried about catching damn flies.

TAKE OUT THE TRASH!

Deborah K
04-02-2009, 09:55 AM
The "big tent" is a loony fantasy and it sucks.


Explain that comment. You are sounding like a collectivist now. Tell me TW, who is allowed in your ideal world?

Munier1
04-02-2009, 09:57 AM
I mostly agree with the OP on this. The only problem is that these kinds of professions seem to attract the most nefarious individuals. At the very least, they DISTRACT those individuals who could do the jobs with integrity. Academia attracts Marxists for college professors, K-12 attracts paternalists and low-brow socialists (those not smart enough to even get Marxism), and the police force attracts people with a criminal mindset (since thinking like a criminal supposedly helps you to be a better cop).

Thankfully, there are a few exceptions to these rules. We understand, as students of the Austrian School, that humans aren't meant to be generalized that much, that they are complex individuals who have many cross-cutting tendencies, experiences, and beliefs.

homah
04-02-2009, 10:00 AM
Yes, teachers are the equivalent of nazis. Or maybe, just maybe, they're regular people trying to educate kids on how to solve math and science problems, how to tell the difference between their, they're and there (you were absent that day, but trust me, they taught it) and how the American Revolution came to pass.

Truth Warrior and you seem to think teachers are trying to indoctrinate you. Someone should send them the memo, because they aren't aware of the plan.


Right. There just doing their jobs.

http://pro.corbis.com/images/AU002664.jpg?size=67&uid={70836eda-a4fd-4a15-9e6d-46cfe5fa0803}

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/t/9/krakow53.jpg

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 10:00 AM
That one.

If you didn't have stinking rotting garbage stacked up around your house, you wouldn't be worried about catching damn flies.

TAKE OUT THE TRASH!

TY I'm trying to be objective.

So you REJECT the OATHKEEPERS?
Do you REJECT all teachers?
Do you REJECT all EVERYONE WHO works in the Government

THEN YOU REJECT RON PAUL

Do you see the Argument you are giving?

newbitech
04-02-2009, 10:02 AM
TY I'm trying to be objective.

So you REJECT the OATHKEEPERS?
Do you REJECT all teachers?
Do you REJECT all EVERYONE WHO works in the Government

THEN YOU REJECT RON PAUL

Do you see the Argument you are giving?


pfftt.. strawman

I'll give you one chance to go back and re-read what I already said and respond to my argument. If you come back with some more blase rhetoric with words like ALL, EVERY, EVERYONE, then I will be confirmed to write off everything you say on this subject from here in.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 10:04 AM
pfftt.. strawman

No that was a gutpunch to your argument.

Our goal is to bring people into the movement not to chase them away.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 10:07 AM
No that was a gutpunch to your argument.

Our goal is to bring people into the movement not to chase them away.

You dont bring people to the movement by taking the movement to them. You bring people to the movement by getting them to see the error of their ways.

Honestly, if your teacher friend is that big a wuss that she cant see the crap in her own profession, then she wasnt worth having.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 10:12 AM
You dont bring people to the movement by taking the movement to them. You bring people to the movement by getting them to see the error of their ways.

Honestly, if your teacher friend is that big a wuss that she cant see the crap in her own profession, then she wasnt worth having.

I didn't see the s*** in the NEOCON movement back in my Hannity days.
It took a few patient logical Ron Paulers to point in the right direction.

christagious
04-02-2009, 10:12 AM
I don't like the way you are shaping your argument. You need to give some specific example.

How about stop attacking supporters who speak the truth that your friends can't swallow?

I agree with the OP. Here in a year I will be finished with school and I WILL BE a teacher. Sure there are always a few bad apples in the bunch but that goes with any group of people. There are good cops, there are bad cops. There are good teachers, there are bad teachers. There are good doctors, there are bad doctors. There are good Ron Paul supporters and there are bad Ron Paul supporters.

There's nothing that "friends can't swallow", the OP is simply saying that a teacher friend of his came to to an event with an open mind and very well could have been turned into a supporter, instead because of assholes who have to collectively put every person of a specific profession into a group and bash them, the potential supporter was turned off. People are turned off of this movement every single day because of the way some of you talk about certain groups of people or talk about certain issues.

And because I'm not too much of a wordsmith I will quote some posts from this thread that I wholeheartedly agree with.


Why would we profile people? I thought we were all here because we understood that we're all different?....

All Bilderbergers and CFR members are the enemy? That I might believe. All cops and teachers are the enemy? All of them? Yer nuts.


I am a high school government teacher and a Ron Paul supporter. Glad to know that Truth Warrior considers me part of the tyranny.

I hear ya Justin, not ALL teachers are part of the system, per se. Besides, don't they say the best way to change the system is from within?


[SIZE="5"]
DO NOT CAST the first stone at teachers if you

EVER had a government job
EVER took a government back student loan
EVER use the post office
EVER went on unemployment
EVER used a public park
EVER bla bla bla........

WHOO!!! that's what I'm talking about.


Yes, teachers are the equivalent of nazis. Or maybe, just maybe, they're regular people trying to educate kids on how to solve math and science problems, how to tell the difference between their, they're and there (you were absent that day, but trust me, they taught it) and how the American Revolution came to pass.

Truth Warrior and you seem to think teachers are trying to indoctrinate you. Someone should send them the memo, because they aren't aware of the plan.

+1


If you don't fit their exact mold of what a Ron Paul supporter should be, then you are the enemy! We can't afford to be turning people with open minds away.

Sadly people will continue to be turned away because of the way some people in this movement carry themselves. They expect people to have open minds when being introduced to this movement but they themselves are very close minded. And with that...


After reading through some more posts, I am done with this thread. The close-minded paranoia of some of you, Truth Warrior among a few others, disgusts me. I'm amazed that I have stuck around this long given some of the people we have to deal with on here.

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 10:12 AM
You catch more flies with Honey.....
What premise do you feel is weak?

Well lets just post some facts rather than emotional issues.
Since the Police State is too easy a target, let look at "education".
http://www.nea.org/home/IssuesAndAction.html
Lots here that is contrary to the freedom movement, but lets take one.
http://www.nea.org/home/16345.htm

Higher Education for Undocumented Immigrants


Current federal law prevents many talented undocumented immigrants who have lived much of their lives in the United States and have graduated from high school from pursuing higher education. Bipartisan legislation (the DREAM Act, H.R. 12754/S. 774) has been introduced in Congress to allow states to determine their own residency rules, thereby permitting them to offer in-state tuition and higher education benefits to undocumented students.
NEA supports this proposal.

Look around. This is the face of the enemy.
More here,
http://www.unionvoice.org/afteactivst/legislative_action_center3.html

Still more.

http://teachersunionexposed.com/

newbitech
04-02-2009, 10:13 AM
No that was a gutpunch to your argument.

Our goal is to bring people into the movement not to chase them away.


nothing in your OP was objective. I can't see thru all bullshit all the time, but I can see thru your bullshit.

You are the one who is doing the serious generalization. It almost sounds as if you are attempting to marginalize one of the base platforms of this movement which is free market education.

You are also trivializing or completely ignorant of some of our recent success like the MIAC report exposure. I think if you are serious about this argument, you ought to step back and think about what being objective really is.

The goal of CFL is to educate. Somehow you got a teacher there and couldn't make the connection. Don't blame the movement for that and don't try and paint people who dislike establishment teachers as anti-Ron Paul or anti freedom message.

Again go back and re-read my arguement and stop looking at my statements for a reason why your teacher friend got turned off. If I was there, I am sure things would have been different.

Anti Federalist
04-02-2009, 10:14 AM
There is no one single institution that has had a greater negative effect on individual liberty and intellectual ability than the state run school system.

Google Horace Mann and Prussian School Model.

Then get back to me.

How anybody could be part of that system and call themselves a "liberty lover" is beyond me.

And don't tell me it's "it's a job".

I turned down, 8 years ago, a six figure naval contract job, just because it was a "government job".

Time for people to start putting their money where their mouths are.

Deborah K
04-02-2009, 10:14 AM
I didn't see the s*** in the NEOCON movement back in my Hannity days.
It took a few patient logical Ron Paulers to point in the right direction.

I'm starting to think that the very people who are so hard-core about who can be in this movement and who can't, have probably never converted anyone. They're all talk and no action. If you think you can hit someone over the head with your logic and expect them to suddenly see the light, then you're a GD'd fool.

misterx
04-02-2009, 10:15 AM
STOP demonizing neocons and communists. We should be nice to them and maybe they'll join us.

Danke
04-02-2009, 10:17 AM
Woot. I intend to say that in four years :)

I thought you'd be bear food by then.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 10:17 AM
Well lets just post some facts rather than emotional issues.
Since the Police State is too easy a target, let look at "education".
http://www.nea.org/home/IssuesAndAction.html
Lots here that is contrary to the freedom movement, but lets take one.
http://www.nea.org/home/16345.htm


Look around. This is the face of the enemy.
More here,
http://www.unionvoice.org/afteactivst/legislative_action_center3.html

Still more.

http://teachersunionexposed.com/

Your pointing at the system and I agree with all the arguments.
Focus on what I'm saying about the Individuals.

I'M BEGGING to open your mind !!!
I'M BEGGING for you guys to stop the HATE !!!

PLEASE !!!!!

heavenlyboy34
04-02-2009, 10:19 AM
I'm starting to think that the very people who are so hard-core about who can be in this movement and who can't, have probably never converted anyone. They're all talk and no action. If you think you can hit someone over the head with your logic and expect them to suddenly see the light, then you're a GD'd fool.

I converted a left liberal during the presidential campaign. :cool::D;):)

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 10:21 AM
There is no one single institution that has had a greater negative effect on individual liberty and intellectual ability than the state run school system.

Google Horace Mann and Prussian School Model.

Then get back to me.

How anybody could be part of that system and call themselves a "liberty lover" is beyond me.

And don't tell me it's "it's a job".

I turned down, 8 years ago, a six figure naval contract job, just because it was a "government job".

Time for people to start putting their money where their mouths are.

While I agree with you in sentiment and you know I do, there are a lot of people out there that have much weaker personalities and constitutions than many of us do. Remember that personality poll someone ran awhile back? There are a lot of followers out there and people who just lived their lives in a fog. It doesn't mean they are bad people. No, I wouldn't want to hang out with them, because one of my bad traits is that I don't suffer stupidity well, but they're not the people who have engineered this deal we're watching. Yes, they allowed it to happen. But then again, so did we.

Some of these people are starting to wake up now. Yeah, it took a steam shovel to hit them over the head, but they ARE waking up. So, we can either embrace them and teach them, or we can insult the hell out of them and make them join up with the very same people engineering our collapse.

C'mon guys, you know which one will further our goals and which one won't.

Feenix566
04-02-2009, 10:21 AM
There are plenty of good teachers and cops out there. The unions and the beurocrats are the problem. The unions prevent bad teachers from being fired and they prevent good teachers from being promoted. The beurocrats impose their agendas on the teachers without regard to how it impacts that students' educations. If we had a policy of school choice, unions and beurocrats would be removed from the system in a short period of time, and our education system would become dramatically more efficient.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 10:21 AM
I converted a left liberal during the presidential campaign. :cool::D;):)

YEAAAA !!!

Was it with hate ?

or

Was it with rational thought?

specsaregood
04-02-2009, 10:21 AM
THERE ARE A LOT of GOOD teachers and cops WE NEED their support to fight TYRANNY.

I have my doubts about most cops; but in regards to teachers, I couldn't agree more.



The cops and teachers are willingly working WITHIN the current "system". That makes them PART of the TYRANNY problem.<IMHO>

Many teachers just want to actually teach and like working with children. It isn't generally a career you get into to get rich. There aren't that many ways to be involved in teaching children other than to "work within the system."

Todd
04-02-2009, 10:21 AM
I don't like the way you are shaping your argument. You need to give some specific example.

How about stop attacking supporters who speak the truth that your friends can't swallow?

He's got a point. You don't build coalitions to change things if you make it about this or that group as THE problem. In my several years as a TA in the school system, I can count very few who did not seriously desire to educate children. It was the administration and regulations that were the problems. Attacking the system is the right method. We lost alot of support during and leading up to the primaries for just this reason.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 10:22 AM
I'm starting to think that the very people who are so hard-core about who can be in this movement and who can't, have probably never converted anyone. They're all talk and no action. If you think you can hit someone over the head with your logic and expect them to suddenly see the light, then you're a GD'd fool.

With all due respect, how can you tell that from the internet? To be fair, there are some people who I easily converted because of their crap experience with the law enforcement.

I am working on an educator right now and the biggest hang up is not the people in the movement, not even close. If I have a bad idea about something, a really good teacher is going to want to help me correct that.

No the biggest hangup is the indoctrination by far. The old school memes the blind respect that people in this country have for authority. That's the biggest hang up I have in getting this educator to change political affiliation.

Deborah K
04-02-2009, 10:22 AM
I converted a left liberal during the presidential campaign. :cool::D;):)

I bet you didn't do it by insulting his intelligence, did you?:)

heavenlyboy34
04-02-2009, 10:26 AM
YEAAAA !!!

Was it with hate ?

or

Was it with rational thought?

Rational thought-discussing RP's opinions. I hope it turned out to be permanent, but I haven't checked in with him since the campaign. (The fellow was a registered democrat and student at Phoenix College at the time. He even asked me how to register Republican to vote for RP in the primary, and I gave him info about that)

newbitech
04-02-2009, 10:26 AM
He's got a point. You don't build coalitions to change things if you make it about this or that group as THE problem. In my several years as a TA in the school system, I can count very few who did not seriously desire to educate children. It was the administration and regulations that were the problems. Attacking the system is the right method. We lost alot of support during and leading up to the primaries for just this reason.


I am more than willing to be corrected when I am wrong. I am also completely opened minded to challenging my own personal dogmas. I just need a sliver of evidence that suggests what I "should" attack. If it's not the people who buy into the system, then please explain to me where this system is that I should attack?

Should I protest schools? Should I ask my city council to ban schools? If its the curriculum, should I ask the state re-write all of the books and tests?

What's the plan teacher? How can I help you change the system?

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 10:26 AM
STOP demonizing neocons and communists. We should be nice to them and maybe they'll join us.

^ This +1 NOT

Originally Posted by bossman068410
No that was a gutpunch to your argument.

Our goal is to bring people into the movement not to chase them away.

I for one have no interest in "bringing people into the movement". I want them to wake the Frak up.
Once they are awake they will be in the "movement".

Feenix566
04-02-2009, 10:28 AM
After reading through some more posts, I am done with this thread. The close-minded paranoia of some of you, Truth Warrior among a few others, disgusts me. I'm amazed that I have stuck around this long given some of the people we have to deal with on here.

Just block him. You'll enjoy this forum much more that way :)

Kraig
04-02-2009, 10:28 AM
^ This +1


I for one have no interest in "bringing people into the movement". I want them to wake the Frak up.
Once they are awake they will be in the "movement".

I agree. This is not something someone takes part in because everyone is so friendly. You either get it or you don't.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 10:28 AM
Rational thought-discussing RP's opinions. I hope it turned out to be permanent, but I haven't checked in with him since the campaign. (The fellow was a registered democrat and student at Phoenix College at the time. He even asked me how to register Republican to vote for RP in the primary, and I gave him info about that)


very similar experience here. Although I have followed up. The teacher is telling me that the challenge has not been teaching the kids, but getting the parents to change their attitudes about education in general.

For whatever reason (i think I touched on this earlier) parents (in general don't freak out I know NOT ALL PARENTS ARE LIKE THIS, I AM NOT ATTACKING PARENTS) leave the authority completely up to the schools. Parents WILL NOT CHALLENGE that authority.

homah
04-02-2009, 10:29 AM
I for one have no interest in "bringing people into the movement". I want them to wake the Frak up.
Once they are awake they will be in the "movement".

You think you're going to "wake up" teachers and cops up by comparing them to fucking nazis?

Anti Federalist
04-02-2009, 10:29 AM
Your pointing at the system and I agree with all the arguments.
Focus on what I'm saying about the Individuals.

I'M BEGGING to open your mind !!!
I'M BEGGING for you guys to stop the HATE !!!

PLEASE !!!!!

I understand your frustration, I really do.

But look, I can't speak for all that, generally, think the way I do, only for myself.

I've been at this a long time, and frankly, I'm tired. Tired of continually playing nice nice with people who should know better.

The ship is sinking and I've spent my time running around the decks telling everybody the ship is sinking, all the while getting mocked and scorned: "the ship's not sinking, that's a conspiracy theory, the captain says everything is fine, shut up and go away, your doom and gloom is ruining our good time".

In my mind's eye, I've now gone to lifeboats, I'm rowing away with a select few family and friends who also had the good sense to realize the ship was sinking.

But the vast majority, still in denial, won't acknowledge the ship is going down until the cold waters of death are their ankles.

By then it will be too late for them, and too late for me to help, even if I could.

Point being, the time for polite cajoling is over, whether anybody wants to admit it or not.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 10:31 AM
^ This +1 NOT


I for one have no interest in "bringing people into the movement". I want them to wake the Frak up.
Once they are awake they will be in the "movement".

So, by your logic, insult them, blame them, and they will come is that it?

by the by, my wife is a 4th grade teacher, and supports Ron Paul,
and evidently a masochist.

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 10:31 AM
You think you're going to "wake up" teachers and cops up by comparing them to fucking nazis?

Nope. I don't expect much from most of them.
Only the very few with a functioning brain. ;)

homah
04-02-2009, 10:32 AM
Nope.
Only the very few with a functioning brain. ;)

So is your goal to wake people up or not? You have me confused.

Those with a brain are not going to respond to you calling them nazis.

Justinjj1
04-02-2009, 10:35 AM
I don't think the liberty movement needs constitutional teachers.

I think you're wrong. If the liberty movement is going to be successful then then the young people need to know something about liberty and its origins, because not everyone learns it at home.

Anti Federalist
04-02-2009, 10:35 AM
I love these arguments, I really do, only because they give me a chance to "whoop and holler".

But what I don't understand is why there has to be the argument in the first place.

There is room for and a role for, both types of people and personalities.

Prags and Three Percenters both have a role to play.

Sam Adams / John Adams...

Patrick Henry / William Otis...

You get the idea...;)


While I agree with you in sentiment and you know I do, there are a lot of people out there that have much weaker personalities and constitutions than many of us do. Remember that personality poll someone ran awhile back? There are a lot of followers out there and people who just lived their lives in a fog. It doesn't mean they are bad people. No, I wouldn't want to hang out with them, because one of my bad traits is that I don't suffer stupidity well, but they're not the people who have engineered this deal we're watching. Yes, they allowed it to happen. But then again, so did we.

Some of these people are starting to wake up now. Yeah, it took a steam shovel to hit them over the head, but they ARE waking up. So, we can either embrace them and teach them, or we can insult the hell out of them and make them join up with the very same people engineering our collapse.

C'mon guys, you know which one will further our goals and which one won't.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 10:37 AM
I understand your frustration, I really do.

But look, I can't speak for all that, generally, think the way I do, only for myself.

I've been at this a long time, and frankly, I'm tired. Tired of continually playing nice nice with people who should know better.

The ship is sinking and I've spent my time running around the decks telling everybody the ship is sinking, all the while getting mocked and scorned: "the ship's not sinking, that's a conspiracy theory, the captain says everything is fine, shut up and go away, your doom and gloom is ruining our good time".

In my mind's eye, I've now gone to lifeboats, I'm rowing away with a select few family and friends who also had the good sense to realize the ship was sinking.

But the vast majority, still in denial, won't acknowledge the ship is going down until the cold waters of death are their ankles.

By then it will be too late for them, and too late for me to help, even if I could.

Point being, the time for polite cajoling is over, whether anybody wants to admit it or not.

I can see how you feel too !!!!!!!

Every time i here about the Global Warming people I just want to punch every environmentalist in the head !!!!! It is tiring to talk about the Genocide that is being perpetrated by the banning of DDT Tens of Millions in Africa have died from these policies. All I get are eye rolls. Frustrating as hell.

Truth Warrior
04-02-2009, 10:38 AM
Many teachers just want to actually teach and like working with children. It isn't generally a career you get into to get rich. There aren't that many ways to be involved in teaching children other than to "work within the system."

I understand that. The "system" just grinds them up, grinds them down, burns them out, chews and spits them out over time, by design.

Next "idealistic" crop, usually dumber than the last BTW. :rolleyes:

newbitech
04-02-2009, 10:39 AM
I think you're wrong. If the liberty movement is going to be successful then then the young people need to know something about liberty and its origins, because not everyone learns it at home.

if we don't resolve our issues soon, their won't be a constitution to teach. Even then history won't be kind to our beloved document. Read the whole post, not just selective pieces, please.

Edit: Think about it, the vast majority of folks attached, associated to, or deeply involved in this movement didn't get their ideas or learn about what is going on in school. The "system" as it is being referred to is currently set up to actively deny those young people the kind of information that would allow this movement to return the rule of law to this country. Actively denying! How does a Liberty Lover (aka RP supporter) deal with that? I have much respect for those folks, but not because they are teachers. Because they are Liberty Lovers. I cannot state my point more succinctly than that.

Danke
04-02-2009, 10:40 AM
I don't agree with government run schools, but am a product of public schools. I was always conservative leaning toward Libertarianism, with the Libertarianism persuasion gaining strength as I got older. A lot of our younger RP supporters are a products of government schools too.

So even though I want to eliminate them, I don't think they are as influential as we are giving them credit for.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 10:40 AM
another thing. we have 'SO CALLED' Ron Paul people demonizing gays by trying to legislate gay marriage in Washington State. I wonder how many gay people we could have got on board with 'the message' of liberty. Sadly, i'm afraid this movement is heading to the crapper because of self interests, and lack of reigning in our personal demons.

I'm close to moving on away from this CURRENT revolution, but i want to bitch slap a few people first before my computer gets taken away.

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 10:41 AM
So, by your logic, insult them, blame them, and they will come is that it?

by the by, my wife is a 4th grade teacher, and supports Ron Paul,
and evidently a masochist.

I don't know your wife. Does she have a functioning brain?
As I said there are a few, but certainly not "most".
Does your wife teach from distorted text books or does she teach kids the truth?

Most that "get it" go to private schools or home school environments.
I know that I could not in clear conscience remain in a system that distorts and deliberately dumbs down education.

Fr3shjive
04-02-2009, 10:45 AM
I agree with TS. We need to fix the system to weed out the bad cops and teachers.

Personally teachers should be paid on some sort of performance based pay. Cops on the other hand should be monitored by an outside agency with cameras in their cars that they cant touch. Internal Affairs hardly ever weeds out the bad cops.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 10:53 AM
I don't know your wife. Does she have a functioning brain?
As I said there are a few, but certainly not "most".
Does your wife teach from distorted text books or does she teach kids the truth?

Most that "get it" go to private schools or home school environments.
I know that I could not in clear conscience remain in a system that distorts and deliberately dumbs down education.

Math, reading, no history per district rules. She does teach critical thinking.
Point is, if you want to use blankets to cover your opinion on teachers, then may i say, you should be a little more 'open minded' and not buy into the BS your eating.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 10:58 AM
another thing. we have 'SO CALLED' Ron Paul people demonizing gays by trying to legislate gay marriage in Washington State. I wonder how many gay people we could have got on board with 'the message' of liberty. Sadly, i'm afraid this movement is heading to the crapper because of self interests, and lack of reigning in our personal demons.

I'm close to moving on away from this CURRENT revolution, but i want to bitch slap a few people first before my computer gets taken away.

JK, Id like to keep this civil.. But Im not sure I see the connection. Why do we need to pander go Gays or anyone for that matter? Gays have the same rights as everyone else. Everyone can marry a member of the opposite sex. Being opposed to Gay marriage doesnt make you a homophobe or anti-gay. It does make you someone who values the nuclear family.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 11:03 AM
Drop out of the system or you're feeding it.

Burrow from within.

The only way to cure the system is to let it fail and build a better one from the rubble.

Reform, if possible, will allow the system to be fixed without so many people getting hurt.

We need a new slate.

We just need to clean the slate.



I ain't God, and I don't know. But, in the meantime, I am grateful for the good apples. I'm glad the bad apples didn't spoil the whole barrel.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 11:04 AM
And don't tell me it's "it's a job".

I turned down, 8 years ago, a six figure naval contract job, just because it was a "government job".

Time for people to start putting their money where their mouths are.

Agreed. If I had decided to pursue money instead of liberty, my life would certainly be much easier.

Xenophage
04-02-2009, 11:04 AM
are you 12 years old? did your grade school teachers forget to give you a jelly belly for getting an 'A' on your clay project?

grow up.

Let me clarify: I hate PUBLIC teachers... and I hate cops.

You think this is immature of me? Are you enamored by these people? Are you enamored by slave owners and mobsters?

It is not the concept of a teacher, or even the concept of a police officer that I have a problem with. What I have a problem with is anybody who would be a police officer in full knowledge that a large part of his job will be to initiate violence against non-violent, innocent people. There is no person of any moral integrity that could ever even consider becoming a police officer. Only brutes and sociopaths are drawn to this 'profession.'

I have a problem with someone who believes it is their moral duty to monopolize the education of a child. Ignorant fuckheads that work in the public school system and have the most absurd notions about science and literature feel that they own the minds of our youth. I actually hate these people more than I hate cops, for they're the root cause of our society's disintegration. Public teachers, and public schools in general, are quite likely the primary cause of a vast majority of psychological ailments that afflict children in America. The public school system encourages a "Lord of the Flies" sociology in developing young minds, where they learn from an impressionable young age to victimize one another and become victims themselves - and nothing else, because they certainly don't learn any academia. At the heart of this system is the philosophy that the State owns your children, and if you don't like it then the aforementioned police will carry out violence against your family.

You're the one that needs to grow up.

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 11:07 AM
Math, reading, no history per district rules. She does teach critical thinking.
Point is, if you want to use blankets to cover your opinion on teachers, then may i say, you should be a little more 'open minded' and not buy into the BS your eating.

Ok, I have only my experience to go on, and since I was "Class of 75" that is a bit dated.
My 8 th grade graduated 18 students. Of those maybe 10 had reading ability above 4th grade level.
Except for rare exceptions, the young people I have met in later years show no improvement.
I see bright intelligent and imaginative kids put on drugs (Ritalin) rather than spending time to stimulate their brains.
I have seen College students that don't understand basic fundamentals.

There are people here that can not read the published works of our enemies and see what their plans are. :(

So yes, I am highly skeptical.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 11:08 AM
There are plenty of good teachers and cops out there. The unions and the beurocrats are the problem. .

If there were truly a significant number of good teachers and cops, there would be no bad teachers or cops. Good people simply dont stand by and let bad shit happen without doing something about it.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 11:08 AM
So extending your logic means that we should praise Hannity?

No I'm saying that it was NOT HATE that brought me to the movement.
It was Logic and Reason other Ron Paul supporters brought to the Hannity forums.

Xenophage
04-02-2009, 11:09 AM
Oh I didn't realize your wife was a teacher. I'm sorry. Actually, I LOVE teachers! REALLY! :D :D :D :D :D

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 11:12 AM
Ok, I have only my experience to go on, and since I was "Class of 75" that is a bit dated.
My 8 th grade graduated 18 students. Of those maybe 10 had reading ability above 4th grade level.
Except for rare exceptions, the young people I have met in later years show no improvement.
I see bright intelligent and imaginative kids put on drugs (Ritalin) rather than spending time to stimulate their brains.
I have seen College students that don't understand basic fundamentals.

There are people here that can not read the published works of our enemies and see what their plans are. :(

So yes, I am highly skeptical.

OMG don't even go there.. You know how pissed I am at BIG PHAMA and our government DESTROYING children for profit and self interest.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 11:12 AM
Damn, these posts are coming in so fast I wonder if I'm wasting my time typing--is anyone actually reading, or just yelling at each other?

Black and white, good and evil--damn. I blame the computers. The complexity of computers is deceptive. Zero or one, yes or no, on or off. Humans are a little more complex than that, and so are our interactions.

If you're burrowing from within, you're feeding the system? Maybe, but what are you feeding it? If you're feeding the system poison, whose side are you on? Is that flu bug in your body part of your system?

Stop and digest, people.

LibertyWorker
04-02-2009, 11:13 AM
To me it’s simple. We have no more time to coddle people that know they are doing wrong so they can hang onto a pay check. Teachers that teach year after year know that the curriculum they are teaching is social ideology set forth by government. Not reading writing and math. Police violate people’s rights every day they go to work. They prevent vary little crime. They just clean up the mess left behind after the fact. making them little more than glorified garbage men. Most of the police spend their time milking people to create revenue for the city and state.

The time for these people is running out.

Either you’re with us or you are with the terrorists

Xenophage
04-02-2009, 11:13 AM
No I'm saying that it was NOT HATE that brought me to the movement.
It was Logic and Reason other Ron Paul supporters brought to the Hannity forums.

You don't have to be bitter and resentful like me, but I think my bitterness and resentment is logically justifiable.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 11:14 AM
No I'm saying that it was NOT HATE that brought me to the movement.
It was Logic and Reason other Ron Paul supporters brought to the Hannity forums.

You do understand that there is a distinct difference between hate and criticism, right?

donnay
04-02-2009, 11:14 AM
The problem is this tyranny that is now at our threshold didn't happen over night and the clocks are ticking. There is no time to coddle and spoon feed people, they have to know that something is radically wrong and take the time and initiative to research for themselves. If you love liberty it is your duty to know the truth and prepare for it!

It is incumbent upon every individual to learn the founding of this country, learn the Declaration of Independence and Constitution--memorize them!

Know why founders feared standing armies and centralized bankers--this is key.

They are not teaching this in public schools!
They are not teaching this in police academies!

Police have become the standing armies our founders warned us about. Central banks have taken control and enslaved us all. Centralize government has taken over schools and put together curriculum that is indoctrinating our children to be good little servants. Schools are set up like minimum security prisons.

Read the 10 planks of the Communists Manifesto to get an idea where this country is going.

Plank 10. Free education for all children in public schools...

No where in the Constitution does it say that you have a right to an education.

If you do not pay your property taxes the standing armies comes.

That has nothing to do with liberty and that is why so many of us are angry at people who continue to acquiesce to this tyranny.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 11:18 AM
To me it’s simple. We have no more time to coddle people that know they are doing wrong so they can hang onto a pay check. Teachers that teach year after year know that the curriculum they are teaching is social ideology set forth by government. Not reading writing and math. Police violate people’s rights every day they go to work. They prevent vary little crime. They just clean up the mess left behind after the fact. making them little more than glorified garbage men. Most of the police spend their time milking people to create revenue for the city and state.

The time for these people is running out.

Either you’re with us or you are with the terrorists

So, you're quoting Dubya. Do you really believe you're a uniter, not a divider?

If you think this subject is simple, you're not looking at the whole picture.

No room for the teacher diligently trying to slide some truth into his or her classroom and hoping the superintendent doesn't find out? No room for the prosecutor trying to figure out who is and isn't really a threat? But how much worse would it be right now without them?

Time for these people is running out, and that's as it should be. But how much do we harm ourselves when we throw the wheat out with the chaff?

Think again about the MIAC report. Don't paint with the broad brush. Every newspaper wirephoto is a bunch of little white spots and little black spots. You must stand back to see the big picture they create.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 11:19 AM
Ok, I have only my experience to go on, and since I was "Class of 75" that is a bit dated.
My 8 th grade graduated 18 students. Of those maybe 10 had reading ability above 4th grade level.
Except for rare exceptions, the young people I have met in later years show no improvement.
I see bright intelligent and imaginative kids put on drugs (Ritalin) rather than spending time to stimulate their brains.
I have seen College students that don't understand basic fundamentals.

There are people here that can not read the published works of our enemies and see what their plans are. :(

So yes, I am highly skeptical.

Yes..ok..life is not black and white. For instance, my wife teaches in a TITLE ONE grade school, low income. Included in this is minority, and immigrant families. Lots of these kids can barely read and speak english, and have emotional and family problems, which makes it somewhat difficult to deal with, especially during test time. Teachers have only so much time to help these kids, and the parents are clueless as to why 'johnnie' is having problems, because USUALLY the parents don't know or won't help in educating their kids.

I'm pretty sure these problems have been around awhile, and until you can come up with a better plan, besides homeschooling, or brain transplants, i'm pretty sure this will continue to be a problem.

misterx
04-02-2009, 11:21 AM
Of course most teachers want to educate children. The question is, what do they want to educate them with? Is it math and science, or is it their socialist beliefs? You almost have to be a partisan leftist to tolerate teaching in the public schools. That is the problem with teachers.

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 11:21 AM
To me it’s simple. We have no more time to coddle people that know they are doing wrong so they can hang onto a pay check. Teachers that teach year after year know that the curriculum they are teaching is social ideology set forth by government. Not reading writing and math. Police violate people’s rights every day they go to work. They prevent vary little crime. They just clean up the mess left behind after the fact. making them little more than glorified garbage men. Most of the police spend their time milking people to create revenue for the city and state.

The time for these people is running out.

Either you’re with us or you are with the terrorists

Ok. Which approach do you figure would have the highest probability in getting a teacher to see the light? Attacking them for being a teacher, or showing them through fact and reason that the curriculum they are teaching and the government programs they are carrying out, have created a bunch of drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded? I am guessing, the latter.

LibertyWorker
04-02-2009, 11:25 AM
So, you're quoting Dubya. Do you really believe you're a uniter, not a divider?

If you think this subject is simple, you're not looking at the whole picture.

No room for the teacher diligently trying to slide some truth into his or her classroom and hoping the superintendent doesn't find out? No room for the prosecutor trying to figure out who is and isn't really a threat? But how much worse would it be right now without them?

Time for these people is running out, and that's as it should be. But how much do we harm ourselves when we throw the wheat out with the chaff?

We are at war.

I don’t keep a whole barrel of bad apples because there are few good one’s at the bottom.

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 11:25 AM
Yes..ok..life is not black and white. For instance, my wife teaches in a TITLE ONE grade school, low income. Included in this is minority, and immigrant families. Lots of these kids can barely read and speak english, and have emotional and family problems, which makes it somewhat difficult to deal with, especially during test time. Teachers have only so much time to help these kids, and the parents are clueless as to why 'johnnie' is having problems, because USUALLY the parents don't know or won't help in educating their kids.

I'm pretty sure these problems have been around awhile, and until you can come up with a better plan, besides homeschooling, or brain transplants, i'm pretty sure this will continue to be a problem.
Nope, It is coming to an end.
Our government can not continue, the paychecks will end.

I expect it to get ugly.

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 11:28 AM
We are at war.

I don’t keep a whole barrel of bad apples because there are few good one’s at the bottom.

Well, you know what, there aren't enough of US, so we're going to have to grow our ranks. If you think we're going to do that by running up to people and telling them they have shit for brains, you have another thing coming. TEACH them; don't alienate them.

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 11:31 AM
Disagree with a liberal OR a conservative and then just watch what happens. :p :rolleyes:


Yes, and why you insist on doing that every opportunity you get and driving people away from learning about our principles, is very strange indeed.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 11:31 AM
We are at war.

I don’t keep a whole barrel of bad apples because there are few good one’s at the bottom.

I hope this continues to be a land of sufficient plenty that we can afford to waste food this way, and can continue to throw wheat out with the chaff. But I'm not counting on it. Especially where the liberty minded are concerned.

This is war. Yup. And we are in desperate need of reinforcements.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 11:32 AM
So, you're quoting Dubya. Do you really believe you're a uniter, not a divider?

If you think this subject is simple, you're not looking at the whole picture.

No room for the teacher diligently trying to slide some truth into his or her classroom and hoping the superintendent doesn't find out? No room for the prosecutor trying to figure out who is and isn't really a threat? But how much worse would it be right now without them?

Time for these people is running out, and that's as it should be. But how much do we harm ourselves when we throw the wheat out with the chaff?

We don't harm ourselves because we act as individuals. This topic started because someone was offended by something a speaker said. Rather than going to that speaker or those speakers and asking for clarity and having this conversation in real time face to face, that person and the OP decided to turn up their nose and walk away from the very idea that brought them to the event in the first place. And then proceed to come here and vent and start divisive straw man threads that pit Liberty Lovers against teachers and act as if the entire movement is full of haters. This kind of crap needs to be called out for what it is.

No one threw that person out. That person walked out on their own. When you bring someone to this forum, it is up to you to work that relationship. I have not had one single person I know get turned off by the way I deliver the message. That being said, I won't bring people to this forum to try and convert them, not my style. No one I know posts here or at least they haven't told me they do. Most people are not going to be as activist as I am and I am ok with that. It doesn't take a majority to change this country. I am sure that many people I talk to would find something to turn them off in this forum. Those people aren't the hardcore support, and I'd be afraid to stand next to them in a protest. They won't challenge authority until the movement challenges as a whole.

However, those fringe supporters can be used successfully when the time is right. Thats why you keep them at an arms length. Thats why you don't expose baby supporters to the meat and potatoes. I can't speak to what happened at the CFL event to the OP and this teacher. BUt I highly doubt anything was said that should be taken as "Ron Paul supporters demonize teachers and cops". Some hurt feelings maybe, but you have to put that aside and look for truth. It hurts. I believe that if this teachers really is interested, he/she won't let what 1 or a few people said sidetrack her for the search for truth. Unless of course part of that truth is forcing her to rethink her career or goals in life. I know I experienced that cognative dissonance. I am sure alot of people have, unfortunatley that is what the "system" has caused and why I hate it and anyone who is involved with it THAT WOULD REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE FACTS AND THRUTH EVEN IF IT CHALLENGES THEIR LIFE.

We have to go after these individuals one at a time and by casting a wide net over that institution, just like we do with others such as congress, the bankers, etc.. we will feret out the good from the bad. When we shine the light, the bad ones go scurrying and the good ones will welcome and embrace the message.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 11:34 AM
You do understand that there is a distinct difference between hate and criticism, right?

YES...

But at the Campaign for liberty there was more HATE that criticism. That is why I posted this here. I wanted to let others know what the experience was like that I saw a possible problem in the movement. I wanted to see what other had to say about it.

This is what I'm seeing. If we attack the individuals then we will never succeed.
We can go all day with this with every profession and belief here.

I HATE

Doctors because of big pharma
Environmentalist because of The Global Warming SCAM
Bankers because of the Monopoly of our money system
Soldiers because they fight in meaningless wars
Farmers because of Big Agra
Stock brokers because of Stock Manipulators
Teachers because of NEA and Government mandates
Cops because they are the Goons hired by the Government
Lawyers because they are scum sucking pigs
Animal rights activist because they are
Civil rights activist because it's not about civil rights It's about promoting Marxism

WHO IS LEFT?
NO ONE

That is why I feel we need to focus on the system. Not the individual.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 11:34 AM
hysterical thread. so full of mis-inforned people, but hey...everyone has an opinion, but facts are facts. life is not BLACK AND WHITE.

kill all the cops and teachers. ok, now what?

Justinjj1
04-02-2009, 11:38 AM
[QUOTE=donnay;2054811]
It is incumbent upon every individual to learn the founding of this country, learn the Declaration of Independence and Constitution--memorize them!

Know why founders feared standing armies and centralized bankers--this is key.

They are not teaching this in public schools!

QUOTE]


Yes it is taught in public schools, it is part of the basic curriculum. I teach it every year. But not only that I teach a wide degree of important things that are not in the textbook because most teachers have a pretty wide degree of freedom in shaping the curriculum.

A lot of you think that teachers are just day in and day out indocrinating students with state sponsored propaganda, that is just not the case.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 11:40 AM
YES...

But at the Campaign for liberty there was more HATE that criticism. That is why I posted this here. I wanted to let others know what the experience was like that I saw a possible problem in the movement. I wanted to see what other had to say about it.

This is what I'm seeing. If we attack the individuals then we will never succeed.
We can go all day with this with every profession and belief here.

I HATE

Doctors because of big pharma
Environmentalist because of The Global Warming SCAM
Bankers because of the Monopoly of our money system
Soldiers because they fight in meaningless wars
Farmers because of Big Agra
Stock brokers because of Stock Manipulators
Teachers because of NEA and Government mandates
Cops because they are the Goons hired by the Government
Lawyers because they are scum sucking pigs
Animal rights activist because they are
Civil rights activist because it's not about civil rights It's about promoting Marxism

WHO IS LEFT?
NO ONE

That is why I feel we need to focus on the system. Not the individual.

Damn truth man.

I'm finding the same conclusions. Has the movement imploded by self interests?

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 11:41 AM
All I know is, I'm an individual and so is everyone else. I'm not Will Rogers and I can't say I've never met a man I didn't like. But I do know people in education who are trying to do it right in spite of the system, and the more the system tries to pervert them the more determined they are to do it right. And I know people in law enforcement who are determined not to lose sight of the real goal--justice--no matter how hard the pressure comes from above to adopt a new goal. And I admire them greatly.

I ask again--yes they are feeding the system, but what are they feeding it?

Xenophage
04-02-2009, 11:44 AM
Ok. Which approach do you figure would have the highest probability in getting a teacher to see the light? Attacking them for being a teacher, or showing them through fact and reason that the curriculum they are teaching and the government programs they are carrying out, have created a bunch of drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded? I am guessing, the latter.

You fail to grasp that teachers, by and large, WANT kids to become little drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded. Their paychecks depend upon it.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 11:47 AM
You fail to grasp that teachers, by and large, WANT kids to become little drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded. Their paychecks depend upon it.

By and large. You want to be stuffed into a category because others who share some demographic traits with you are, by and large, this or that?

Damn, people. Are we a bunch of collectivists? Or are we individuals committed to the rights of individuals?

I think that people are individuals, myself--by and large...


Obama is the Messiah, that's what.


By and large, you're probably right. By and large, these are not the ones I admire.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 11:49 AM
You fail to grasp that teachers, by and large, WANT kids to become little drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded. Their paychecks depend upon it.

YEA..and BY AND LARGE anyone wearing a turban is a terrorist, right.?

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 11:49 AM
No one threw that person out. That person walked out on their own. When you bring someone to this forum, it is up to you to work that relationship. I have not had one single person I know get turned off by the way I deliver the message. That being said, I won't bring people to this forum. No one I know posts here. Most people are not going to be as activist as I am and I am ok with that. It doesn't take a majority to change this country. I am sure that many people I talk to would find something to turn them off in this forum. Those people aren't the hardcore support. They won't challenge authority until the movement challenges as a whole.



2 speakers, and about 5 members either trashed or made fun of teachers or the NEA. She was pretty good about the whole thing. She did talk to the other teachers about the fed and how they are protected BY law from an audit. She also talked about how the "system" of influencing officials and how she did like Ron Paul and the Judges speech.

Has anyone knowtice that Ron Paul trys NOT to talk about the individual unless he has to and NOT to insult them but to argue with Knowlege and Wisdom?

Ty everyone for the heated disscussion. I really wanted to get this out.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 11:49 AM
[quote=donnay;2054811]
It is incumbent upon every individual to learn the founding of this country, learn the Declaration of Independence and Constitution--memorize them!

Know why founders feared standing armies and centralized bankers--this is key.

They are not teaching this in public schools!

QUOTE]


Yes it is taught in public schools, it is part of the basic curriculum. I teach it every year. But not only that I teach a wide degree of important things that are not in the textbook because most teachers have a pretty wide degree of freedom in shaping the curriculum.

A lot of you think that teachers are just day in and day out indocrinating students with state sponsored propaganda, that is just not the case.

I call BS right there.

I doubt you are teaching about fearing standing armies and centralized bankers. You might be hitting those points in a broader perspective, but the message is not getting thru if you still have your job and if your city or town is still funding your school.

Sorry to doubt you on this cause I don't know you, but you'll have a very hard time with this argument without some evidence.

Justinjj1
04-02-2009, 11:50 AM
You fail to grasp that teachers, by and large, WANT kids to become little drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded. Their paychecks depend upon it.

LOL
The primary motivation behind teachers is to maintain their fat paychecks by creating mindless drones.

This is the most idiotic thread I have ever read.

andrewh817
04-02-2009, 11:52 AM
They too have been INDOCTRINATED.
How many cops and teachers are out there?
You can open their minds to the system they are in.
Don't you want people on the inside fighting the system?

Actually the only way for them to fight the system would be to resign from their jobs....

newbitech
04-02-2009, 11:53 AM
2 speakers, and about 5 members either trashed or made fun of teachers or the NEA. She was pretty good about the whole thing. She did talk to the other teachers about the fed and how they are protected BY law from an audit. She also talked about how the "system" of influencing officials and how she did like Ron Paul and the Judges speech.

Has anyone knowtice that Ron Paul trys NOT to talk about the individual unless he has to and NOT to insult them but to argue with Knowlege and Wisdom?

Ty everyone for the heated disscussion. I really wanted to get this out.


did you confront those people? What exactly did the speakers say? How about some fact like where, who, when. etc.. have you contacted anyone about this issue in the leadership chain? It sounds like you are talking about the St. Louis regional.

Also, your thread title is saying teachers and cops? Why did you throw those two in together? If you are concerned about the hostility in this movement, you shouldn't be surprised. Take a look at what is happening in Europe. No they might not be showing a good message or inline with our beliefs, but believe me, this movement is still in a passive mode. The heat hasn't turned up here yet.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 11:54 AM
LOL
The primary motivation behind teachers is to maintain their fat paychecks by creating mindless drones.

This is the most idiotic thread I have ever read.

You guys that demonize teachers don't know what you're talking about.

And what makes this thread so idiotic is comments above in the quote box.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 11:56 AM
Actually the only way for them to fight the system would be to resign from their jobs....

Hear that, Dr. Paul? You aren't fighting the system by voting against everything with earmarks, everything wasteful, and everything unconstitutional. Resign, come home, sit on your narrow ass in Lake Victoria and clean your guns, sir. You are merely propigating the system and wasting your time and our hope for change. Give it up and stop feeding the beast.

[/sarcasm]

newbitech
04-02-2009, 11:57 AM
LOL
The primary motivation behind teachers is to maintain their fat paychecks by creating mindless drones.

This is the most idiotic thread I have ever read.

fat paychecks? you misquote and thus muddle your rebuttal. Ever here of FCAT? Show me an FCAT test that comes close to mentioning standing armies and the implications thereof or the Federal Reserve and Central banking control over the people vis a vis a fiat currency backed by the hot air that politicians spew daily.

I think you should check your motive in posting here, and maybe if you really do teach check your effectiveness in spreading anykind of liberty message to "your kids".

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 12:00 PM
did you confront those people? What exactly did the speakers say? How about some fact like where, who, when. etc.. have you contacted anyone about this issue in the leadership chain? It sounds like you are talking about the St. Louis regional.

Also, your thread title is saying teachers and cops? Why did you throw those two in together? If you are concerned about the hostility in this movement, you shouldn't be surprised. Take a look at what is happening in Europe. No they might not be showing a good message or inline with our beliefs, but believe me, this movement is still in a passive mode. The heat hasn't turned up here yet.

That's why I posted here. I wanted to get the feedback here first.
I wanted to dicuss this.

Yes i do worry. It might be WAY to late to slowly bring people around.

Ty Newbitech I do appreciate your opinion !!!!!

homah
04-02-2009, 12:00 PM
You fail to grasp that teachers, by and large, WANT kids to become little drones who understand very little of the principles upon which this country was founded. Their paychecks depend upon it.

This is bullshit. I have never met a single teacher who thought like this. Perhaps some are unaware that parts of the books they are using are propaganda, but I have never heard of a teacher purposely misguiding his/her students.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 12:02 PM
You guys that demonize teachers don't know what you're talking about.

And what makes this thread so idiotic is comments above in the quote box.

teachers and cops demonize themselves, Liberty Lovers simply point it out.

Main Entry:de·mon http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?demon001.wav=demon'))Variant(s):or dae·mon http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?demon001.wav=daemon')) \ˈdē-mən\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English demon, from Late Latin & Latin; Late Latin daemon evil spirit, from Latin, divinity, spirit, from Greek daimōn, probably from daiesthai to distribute — more at tide (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tide)Date:13th century 1 a: an evil spirit b: a source or agent of evil, harm, distress, or ruin2usually daemon : an attendant power or spirit : genius (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genius)3usually daemon : a supernatural being of Greek mythology intermediate between gods and men4: one that has exceptional enthusiasm, drive, or effectiveness <a demon for work>


Which part of that definition do you disagree with? And how does anyone here have anyway to turn a teacher into THAT type of teacher?

Justinjj1
04-02-2009, 12:03 PM
You guys that demonize teachers don't know what you're talking about.

And what makes this thread so idiotic is comments above in the quote box.


my above quote was sarcasm in case you didn't notice.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 12:04 PM
That's why I posted here. I wanted to get the feedback here first.
I wanted to dicuss this.

Yes i do worry. It might be WAY to late to slowly bring people around.

Ty Newbitech I do appreciate your opinion !!!!!


Alright, well this subject fired me up a little. I hope that you will confront this issue locally and report back the results. In the future, please have the confidence to nip these types of issues in the bud so they don't grow even if I and others think your concerns are unfounded.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 12:05 PM
kill all the cops and teachers. ok, now what?

Actually, I was mostly just thinking of firing them. Cops can go eat donuts and guard malls and Public school teachers will find work in new private schools or do something new.

homah
04-02-2009, 12:05 PM
teachers and cops demonize themselves, Liberty Lovers simply point it out.

Main Entry:de·mon http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?demon001.wav=demon'))Variant(s):or dae·mon http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?demon001.wav=daemon')) \ˈdē-mən\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English demon, from Late Latin & Latin; Late Latin daemon evil spirit, from Latin, divinity, spirit, from Greek daimōn, probably from daiesthai to distribute — more at tide (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tide)Date:13th century 1 a: an evil spirit b: a source or agent of evil, harm, distress, or ruin2usually daemon : an attendant power or spirit : genius (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genius)3usually daemon : a supernatural being of Greek mythology intermediate between gods and men4: one that has exceptional enthusiasm, drive, or effectiveness <a demon for work>


Which part of that definition do you disagree with? And how does anyone here have anyway to turn a teacher into THAT type of teacher?

Demonize doesn't mean the same thing as demon. One meaning of demonize is "to represent as evil or diabolic."

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 12:08 PM
LOL
The primary motivation behind teachers is to maintain their fat paychecks by creating mindless drones.

This is the most idiotic thread I have ever read.

No it is not. Public schools teach conformity. It is not the building that teaches this. The "system" does not interact with children. Teachers do.

How many teachers are teaching kids to question authority? How many teach the the Police ARE NOT your friend?
How many teach what is expressed in my sig line.???

Justinjj1
04-02-2009, 12:09 PM
fat paychecks? you misquote and thus muddle your rebuttal. Ever here of FCAT? Show me an FCAT test that comes close to mentioning standing armies and the implications thereof or the Federal Reserve and Central banking control over the people vis a vis a fiat currency backed by the hot air that politicians spew daily.

I think you should check your motive in posting here, and maybe if you really do teach check your effectiveness in spreading anykind of liberty message to "your kids".

I have a sticker on my door at school that says "The Federal Reserve: Looting the U.S Since 1913". I have shown "America: Freedom to Fascism" to my class, we have discussed in depth the founding fathers distrust of standing armies and Jackson's war with bank.

homah
04-02-2009, 12:11 PM
No it is not. Public schools teach conformity. It is not the building that teaches this. The "system" does not interact with children. Teachers do.

How many teachers are teaching kids to question authority? How many teach the the Police ARE NOT your friend?
How many teach what is expressed in my sig line.???

I don't know of any teachers who say not to question authority or that police are your friend.

Perhaps we should bring back civics classes so that people are more aware of their rights. Then, they can decide for themselves whether individual authority figures are good or bad.

bossman068410
04-02-2009, 12:11 PM
i have a sticker on my door at school that says "the federal reserve: Looting the u.s since 1913". I have shown "america: Freedom to fascism" to my class, we have discussed in depth the founding fathers distrust of standing armies and jackson's war with bank.

awesome

thank you !!!

newbitech
04-02-2009, 12:12 PM
Demonize doesn't mean the same thing as demon. One meaning of demonize is "to represent as evil or diabolic."

and the other two definitions are



To turn into or as if into a demon.
To possess by or as if by a demon.

So you are basically saying that we are putting out propaganda. I agree we are in a war. But I completely disagree that we are running the propaganda machine. You might want to take a look at the curriculum and what is required by the state of teachers and schools to see who is running the propaganda. Public school teachers thru the state curriculum simply prepare young minds to by highly susceptible to the propaganda. Thus it is the teachers and the state who seek to demonize (in you understanding of the word), third parties and constitutional principles. Including Ron Paul and his supporters, which apparently included you and I.

homah
04-02-2009, 12:16 PM
and the other two definitions are



To turn into or as if into a demon.
To possess by or as if by a demon.

So you are basically saying that we are putting out propaganda. I agree we are in a war. But I completely disagree that we are running the propaganda machine. You might want to take a look at the curriculum and what is required by the state of teachers and schools to see who is running the propaganda. Public school teachers thru the state curriculum simply prepare young minds to by highly susceptible to the propaganda. Thus it is the teachers and the state who seek to demonize (in you understanding of the word), third parties and constitutional principles. Including Ron Paul and his supporters, which apparently included you and I.

I must have misunderstood your prior post. I was simply just trying to clarify what another poster meant by his usage of the word demonize.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 12:18 PM
I have a sticker on my door at school that says "The Federal Reserve: Looting the U.S Since 1913". I have shown "America: Freedom to Fascism" to my class, we have discussed in depth the founding fathers distrust of standing armies and Jackson's war with bank.

tell us more, has anyone at your school mentioned anything to you about the visibility of the sticker? Such as the principle, other teachers, etc?

Did you give a test about this movie to see what was retained? Did you test the children and develop their knowledge on these issues? Did you give them homework assignments related to this material to take home and study with their parents?

I'd really like to know how you think having a sticker on your door, watching a movie, and having in debt (lol Freudian slip i suppose, i won't edit it for the lulz) discussions is influencing these kids.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 12:19 PM
I must have misunderstood your prior post. I was simply just trying to clarify what another poster meant by his usage of the word demonize.


I know what he meant. And I completely disagree. That definition of the word is not applicable in this argument which is why I pointed it out. Thank you tho, this debate wouldn't be nearly as heated if the public school system was effective in teaching communication skills.:cool::p:o:D

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
04-02-2009, 12:21 PM
STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.

Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.

When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me. I have opened her eyes to the bullshit between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind. After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing. Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.

We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
If the system was changed SO would the teaching.

THERE ARE A LOT of GOOD teachers and cops WE NEED their support to fight TYRANNY.

Tyranny is a responsible thing. It is the family we flee back to any time our nation suffers an economic calamity. It then recovers some of us while pimping the rest of us as permanent whores when it was all of us who were born so helpless in calamity that we deserved no better than to be prostituted. Tyranny lathers itself up and makes a big show by pathetically giving to the pitiful.
Rather than pathetically giving away that which has been rightfully earned by the people, perhaps it would be better that government work at making someone feel less of a whore? This only takes tolerance.

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 12:27 PM
I don't know of any teachers who say not to question authority or that police are your friend.

Perhaps we should bring back civics classes so that people are more aware of their rights. Then, they can decide for themselves whether individual authority figures are good or bad.

OK, I guess I'm just full of shit. :confused:
Lets do just a quick google search.;)

http://ci.champaign.il.us/news/weekly-activity-reports/champaign-police-visit-st-joseph-schools/


Police Department Updates
On October 5, 2007, Risk Watch presentations were conducted at Booker T. Washington Elementary School located at 606 E. Grove Street in Champaign. School Resource...
Police Department Activities
On May 2, 2008, Risk Watch presentations were conducted at Booker T. Washington Elementary School in Champaign. School Resource Officers encouraged youth to make time...
Risk Watch Presentations At Elementary Schools
Risk Watch presentations were conducted at Robeson, Westview and Southside Elementary Schools on November 20, 24 and 25, 2008. The Risk Watch team provided curriculum...
Patrol Officer Participates in “I Love to Read Day”
A Patrol Officer participated in Kenwood Elementary School’s annual “I Love to Read Day” on March 6. The Officer read one of his favorite children’s...
Police Department Activities
A School Resource Officers served as an exhibitor at the High School of St. Thomas More Career Fair on February 12, 2008. Students received information...
Champaign Police Department Community Relations Activities
The Champaign Police Department’s School Resource Officers conducted a Drug and Alcohol Awareness presentation at The High School of Saint Thomas More on May 3,...
Police Department Community Services
On February 8, 2008, officers conducted a tour of the police station for members of Girl Scout Troop #2302. A presentation on the training and...
Police Department Activities
On September 11, 2008, the Champaign Police Department participated in the University of Illinois Public Safety Day. Local law enforcement officers kicked off the fall...
Risk Watch
On May 20, 2008, Risk Watch presentations were conducted at Vernon L. Barkstall Elementary School. School Resource Officers provided instruction on Firearm Injury Prevention and...
Police Department Updates
The Latino Partnership of Champaign County presented the Champaign Police Department with a Certificate of Excellence for outstanding performance, dedication and support in protecting the...

http://arvada.org/about-arvada/police-visit-arvada-schools



“The relationship between the police department and the school community is critical,” said Police Chief Don Wick. “It’s important students and parents know that the police department is involved with their school, and remains committed to school safety.”
http://www.sacbee.com/latest/story/1731033.html

Rancho Cordova police officers will be spending lunchtime with local elementary school students as part of a new program intended to bolster students' good behavior and increase campus safety.

Police officers and Sacramento County sheriff's deputies assigned to the sheriff's east division will be "adopting" 23 elementary schools and spending time with students, a police news release states.
http://www.app.com/article/20090319/NEWS01/903190423/1004/NEWS01

"A little extra something for the kids, to reward them," he said.

The State Police introduced Top Physical Challenge three years ago, as a way to introduce students to law enforcement, Muse said. Schools that participate in the program choose their most physically fit students to show off their sit-up, push-up, pull-up, broad jump and shuttle-run skills.

Now I could probably fill up pages with this.
Can you spell Indoctrination???

constituent
04-02-2009, 12:28 PM
I'm pretty sure these problems have been around awhile, and until you can come up with a better plan, besides homeschooling, or brain transplants, i'm pretty sure this will continue to be a problem.

Stop teaching reeeding, riting and 'rithmatick to kids that should be learnin' to swing a hammer.

There, problem solved.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 12:28 PM
Actually, I was mostly just thinking of firing them. Cops can go eat donuts and guard malls and Public school teachers will find work in new private schools or do something new.

Well its clear you don't have a grasp on how educating kids works, and whats really happening. Perhaps you should try and get a teaching degree, then comeback in 4 year to 5 years and tell everyone what YOU learned.

homah
04-02-2009, 12:29 PM
Stop teaching reeeding, riting and 'rithmatic to kids that should be learnin' to swing a hammer.

Problem solved.

I agree with this. Kids should be presented with more options and not looked upon as failures if they aren't "college bound." A lot of teachers agree with this as well.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 12:31 PM
Stop teaching reeeding, riting and 'rithmatick to kids that should be learnin' to swing a hammer.

There, problem solved.

??

i read a lot on blaming teachers in this thread. Is it really the teachers?..can we lay blame on anything else?

lets hear the plan. What have we got?...come on, i'm waiting.

thought so.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 12:32 PM
Expect a visit soon from your local NEA rep.


Can you spell Indoctrination???

Who's denying that the system sucks? Can't even say that's painting with too broad a brush, thanks to the Carter/Reagan Department of Education... :(

constituent
04-02-2009, 12:36 PM
I ask again--yes they are feeding the system, but what are they feeding it?

legitimacy.

but hey, maybe if they persevere long enough and are lucky enough, pres. obama will put them on a stage and shower them with adoration for a "tireless job well done."

nationally televised and all that.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 12:37 PM
LMFAO!! classic! ;)

i'm going to guess all you teacher critics couldn't get a teaching degree. Its easier to bitch ain't it?

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 12:46 PM
legitimacy.

Their legitimacy is buoyed by the cogs in the machine? I think not.

donnay
04-02-2009, 12:47 PM
i'm going to guess all you teacher critics couldn't get a teaching degree. Its easier to bitch ain't it?


My mother worked for the school system for 32 years and she is the biggest advocate for home schooling. And there is plenty of her colleagues who are with her. They know the take-over that happened in the 60s.

An education is not a right, it is a privilege and why should we citizens, at the barrel of a gun be forced to pay for it?

constituent
04-02-2009, 12:47 PM
??

i read a lot on blaming teachers in this thread. Is it really the teachers?..can we lay blame on anything else?

lets hear the plan. What have we got?...come on, i'm waiting.

thought so.

Where did I blame teachers?(sorry read "demonize" discussion earlier in the thread... end edit)


Also, I just provided you with the solution, you're just too angry to see it.

The entire system is broken beyond repair because of the intentions behind its design. The birth of the "public" "school" system is the ultimate tale of American corruption and systemic malevolence disguised as charity. The machine was programmed entirely to destroy individual identity and various cultural influences/identities that ran counter to the "happy worker" agenda of Rockefeller, et. al.

Stop teaching reeeding, riting and 'rhitmatic to kids that should be learning to swing a hammer.

Problem solved.

constituent
04-02-2009, 12:48 PM
Their legitimacy is buoyed by the cogs in the machine? I think not.

do what?

Deborah K
04-02-2009, 12:50 PM
Here's my thinking on all of this. And I'm going to use a radical example as an illustration to make my point: Take a child from the gaza, who's been indoctrinated into hating and killing, and he lives his whole life believing in hating and killing. How do you de-programme someone like that? And don't say it can't be done, because it's been done.

I'm pretty sure you DON'T do it by demoralizing him. That teacher was demoralized when she went in with an open mind and got lambasted (indirectly) for being a teacher. If you don't like the current situation with our school systems then do something about it. Attacking teachers who think they are doing the right thing because they themselves have been indoctrinated, is as stupid as attacking a gaza kid for what he has been indoctrinated into.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 12:50 PM
My mother worked for the school system for 32 years and she is the biggest advocate for home schooling. And there is plenty of her colleagues who are with her. They know the take-over that happened in the 60s.

An education is not a right, it is a privilege and why should we citizens, at the barrel of a gun be forced to pay for it?

Is homeschooling the 'be all' answer to this debate? I don't think so.

If anyone has a better answer or idea or plan, lets hear it.

constituent
04-02-2009, 12:54 PM
An education is not a right, it is a privilege and why should we citizens, at the barrel of a gun (and eternal threat of property confiscation) be forced to pay for it?

edit in bold

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 01:01 PM
Here's my thinking on all of this. And I'm going to use a radical example as an illustration to make my point: Take a child from the gaza, who's been indoctrinated into hating and killing, and he lives his whole life believing in hating and killing. How do you de-programme someone like that? And don't say it can't be done, because it's been done.

You don't. Arm him and teach him tactics.
While you're at it teach the kid in Jerusalem.
They both have the same enemy, they just don't know it. Their enemy has them fighting each other.
Their enemy is my enemy. Those here are just too pacified to fight. :(

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 01:01 PM
edit in bold

OK. Got it.

Now, how do we educate people. Or is it our problem?

hypothetical..

Public schools eliminated... so we have ...

homeschooling?..check. Not for everybody.
Wealthy people, private schools. check.. Not for everybody.

everyone else?..sorry, grab a hammer and goodluck.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 01:02 PM
Is homeschooling the 'be all' answer to this debate? I don't think so.

If anyone has a better answer or idea or plan, lets hear it.


first of all, teacher need to stop being the victim. Too often I hear of teachers complain about the symptoms of the problem. Lack of funding, too many students in the class, undisciplined children.

I think a great place to start is the PTA and PTSA. I don't think the system as it stands can be repaired. But, if there is to be any progress it must come from governing bodies. Teachers need to engage the parents more effectively. Teachers need to get together and work as a coalition and voting block or join a voting block like the freedom movement.

Teachers need to effect change locally and at the state levels. Joining national groups is not working.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 01:05 PM
Here's my thinking on all of this. And I'm going to use a radical example as an illustration to make my point: Take a child from the gaza, who's been indoctrinated into hating and killing, and he lives his whole life believing in hating and killing. How do you de-programme someone like that? And don't say it can't be done, because it's been done.

I'm pretty sure you DON'T do it by demoralizing him. That teacher was demoralized when she went in with an open mind and got lambasted (indirectly) for being a teacher. If you don't like the current situation with our school systems then do something about it. Attacking teachers who think they are doing the right thing because they themselves have been indoctrinated, is as stupid as attacking a gaza kid for what he has been indoctrinated into.

If they're killing Israeli soldiers they have the moral high ground, easily over cops and teachers here. I don't think that happens in Gaza often though, it's pretty much the children getting killed. Anyways the first step to de-program him would be to get him the hell out of that violent concentration camp so he can see what it is like to live in a more rational and free society. Teachers and cops don't have that excuse though, despite our oppressive government they still have 100% freedom to switch jobs. Really though, playing the ignorant card for an EDUCATOR is just really sad to me, their job is supposed reduce ignorance and they can't even do it for their own mind, let alone the minds of others. I think many teachers AND cops just take the job because it is easy.

Personally if someone said my entire profession was full of scumbags and they gave me a couple reasons to back it up, I would listen to them and look into it. After looking into it I would probably get the hell out.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 01:05 PM
Step one is to get rid of the Department of Education and step two is to get on your local school board.

Throwing all the teachers, good and bad together, out the door is way, way down my list. Sorry.

People are individuals and teachers are there for many, many different reasons. Some are paving their road to hell with good intentions, others, yes, were hell-bound from the start.

Can't we find more productive things to discuss?


Personally if someone said my entire profession was full of scumbags and they gave me a couple reasons to back it up, I would listen to them and look into it. After looking into it I would probably get the hell out.

Dr. Paul, your profession is full of scumbags. Get the hell out. [/sarcasm]

heavenlyboy34
04-02-2009, 01:06 PM
i'm going to guess all you teacher critics couldn't get a teaching degree. Its easier to bitch ain't it?

I wouldn't want one. I don't have the desire to be part of your corrupt little "system". If I wanted to teach, I would call myself a "tutor" and place an ad in the paper. ;):D

pcosmar
04-02-2009, 01:06 PM
OK. Got it.

Now, how do we educate people. Or is it our problem?

hypothetical..

Public schools eliminated... so we have ...

homeschooling?..check. Not for everybody.
Wealthy people, private schools. check.. Not for everybody.

everyone else?..sorry, grab a hammer and goodluck.

Yup, My high school education has done nothing for me.
But learning to knock dents out of cars has paid for my farm and land.
Useful skills should not be underestimated.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 01:06 PM
Well its clear you don't have a grasp on how educating kids works, and whats really happening. Perhaps you should try and get a teaching degree, then comeback in 4 year to 5 years and tell everyone what YOU learned.

You just had to go there.

Okay. I have a professional doctorate. It is pretty much common knowledge that 'education' programs as a course of study are about as intellectually challenging as underwater basketweaving or 'marketing'.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 01:07 PM
Dude, please dont go there...

Well, i'm sorry, but bitching is all i'm hearing. Nothing in the way of solutions. Just black and white rhetoric that gets no where, except alienating a group, and makes one 'feel' they are somehow possesed with an answer. Feels good, but really is pointless.

Whats your plan?

constituent
04-02-2009, 01:09 PM
OK. Got it.

Now, how do we educate people. Or is it our problem?

hypothetical..

Public schools eliminated... so we have ...

homeschooling?..check. Not for everybody.
Wealthy people, private schools. check.. Not for everybody.

everyone else?..sorry, grab a hammer and goodluck.


Start here (http://books.google.com/books?id=nfIZAAAAYAAJ) unless you're ready to shell out for a lesson or two.

(additionally, and in answer to your first question in the post quoted above, no it is not our problem)

Kraig
04-02-2009, 01:09 PM
Step one is to get rid of the Department of Education and step two is to get on your local school board.

Throwing all the teachers, good and bad together, out the door is way, way down my list. Sorry.

People are individuals and teachers are there for many, many different reasons. Some are paving their road to hell with good intentions, others, yes, were hell-bound from the start.

Can't we find more productive things to discuss?

No step 2 is privatizing the schools and then getting on the board for the school your kids go to. Realistically though, step one is homeschooling your kids or send them to a good private school, and watch the public school system go to hell. It's a failed and dying system.

constituent
04-02-2009, 01:10 PM
Whats your plan?

What is yours?

That is really what is at issue here.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Dr. Paul, your profession is full of scumbags. Get the hell out. [/sarcasm]

See that right there defeats your whole argument, if you said this to him, he wouldn't get offended, he would agree with you. Why do you think he has the "Don't steal, government doesn't like competition" sign on his desk? OMG Ron Paul is collectively singling out everyone in government with that sign!

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 01:13 PM
See that right there defeats your whole argument, if you said this to him, he wouldn't get offended, he would agree with you. Why do you think he has the "Don't steal, government doesn't like competition" sign on his desk?

Yes, but not everyone is as far along as Dr. Paul, right? Again, why drive someone away by insulting them, when instead you can give them the information that they are lacking?

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 01:13 PM
Well, i'm sorry, but bitching is all i'm hearing. Nothing in the way of solutions. Just black and white rhetoric that gets no where, except alienating a group, and makes one 'feel' they are somehow possesed with an answer. Feels good, but really is pointless.

Whats your plan?

If we have to have universal tax funded education.?? Fine. Privatize the delivery systems. The state gives funding for each kid per year X number of dolars. Force schools to compete for students. Parents will choose the schools that they feel provide the best opportunities for their kids. Good teachers will make more, bad teachers will make less or leave the field. Rich kids will pay for better schools, poor kids will still get the best that is available on a budget.

No more NEA, no more 50% administrative overhead, no more wasting time on teaching kids to be communists... (although the rich schools might for a while).

Kraig
04-02-2009, 01:16 PM
Yes, but not everyone is as far along as Dr. Paul, right? Again, why drive someone away by insulting them, when instead you can give them the information that they are lacking?

The information they are lacking is that they are in a profession of scumbags.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 01:18 PM
If we have to have universal tax funded education.?? Fine. Privatize the delivery systems. The state gives funding for each kid per year X number of dolars. Force schools to compete for students. Parents will choose the schools that they feel provide the best opportunities for their kids. Good teachers will make more, bad teachers will make less or leave the field. Rich kids will pay for better schools, poor kids will still get the best that is available on a budget.

No more NEA, no more 50% administrative overhead, no more wasting time on teaching kids to be communists... (although the rich schools might for a while).

Fuck making me or anyone else pay for your kids education. The state does not give any money that they do not take from me or someone else. Stop promoting this theft. You don't have to force schools to do anything either, take away the tax funding and they have to compete for customers.

Justinjj1
04-02-2009, 01:22 PM
tell us more, has anyone at your school mentioned anything to you about the visibility of the sticker? Such as the principle, other teachers, etc?

Did you give a test about this movie to see what was retained? Did you test the children and develop their knowledge on these issues? Did you give them homework assignments related to this material to take home and study with their parents?

I'd really like to know how you think having a sticker on your door, watching a movie, and having in debt (lol Freudian slip i suppose, i won't edit it for the lulz) discussions is influencing these kids.


Those are just a few examples out of many and of course I check for understanding through assignments and tests.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 01:22 PM
Fuck making me or anyone else pay for your kids education. The state does not give any money that they do not take from me or someone else. Stop promoting this theft. You don't have to force schools to do anything either, take away the tax funding and they have to compete for customers.

The guy asked for a solution assuming universal delivery. You cant have universal delivery of any good without socializing at least some of the costs. Given those parameters, IMO, I have described the system that maximizes efficiency, and minimizes the potential for bureaucracies and teacher communism..

I never said I advocate public funding of education, but I think you'd be hard pressed to convince even 10% of people to turn that switch back... ever. Given that limitation, I think privatizing the schools themselves is about as far as can be accomplished, at least in my lifetime.

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 01:24 PM
Well, I'm a (substitute) teacher looking for a full time job. I substitute all around my public school district. Yet I consider myself a market anarchist.

It's not the fault of the teachers that the State has monopolized the education sector to such an extent that it's difficult to get a teaching job not in a public school, especially one that pays well. Must I handicap myself by limiting my job opportunities when the job in the public school would be occupied by someone else anyway? Do you all refuse to drive on the government's roads, pay for services with the government's dollars, or call on the government's emergency services?

Kraig
04-02-2009, 01:27 PM
The guy asked for a solution assuming universal delivery. You cant have universal delivery of any good without socializing at least some of the costs. Given those parameters, IMO, I have described the system that maximizes the efficiency.

I never said I advocate public funding of education, but I think you'd be hard pressed to convince even 10% of people to turn that switch back... ever. Given that limitation, I think privatizing the schools themselves is about as far as can be accomplished, at least in my lifetime.

You think I care about how many I can convince? It's MY money! It's MY labor! I do NOT want the government to spend it on schools. Period. Universal delivery is NOT needed or even good. Stop using everyone else as an excuse and take responsibility for what you are recommending. You never said you advocate public funding, you just wrote up a little blurb of how it should be done, that doesn't make any sense.

constituent
04-02-2009, 01:27 PM
Do you all refuse to drive on the government's roads, pay for services with the government's dollars, or call on the government's emergency services?

Wow, "the government's" you say?

Do "we" not pay out of pocket for the services listed above?

Kraig
04-02-2009, 01:28 PM
Well, I'm a (substitute) teacher looking for a full time job. I substitute all around my public school district. Yet I consider myself a market anarchist.

It's not the fault of the teachers that the State has monopolized the education sector to such an extent that it's difficult to get a teaching job not in a public school, especially one that pays well. Must I handicap myself by limiting my job opportunities when the job in the public school would be occupied by someone else anyway? Do you all refuse to drive on the government's roads, pay for services with the government's dollars, or call on the government's emergency services?

Absolutely whenever possible. Not taking a government job was the easy part.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 01:29 PM
What is yours?

That is really what is at issue here.

My wife is 4th grade teacher, and i see and hear things most have no clue about. Being somewhat in the loop is helpful into my base knowledge, rather than being an outsider who just hears snipets of things that have no relevance.

Homeschooling is a good idea, but not the entire answer on how one gains an education.

newbitech
04-02-2009, 01:31 PM
My wife is 4th grade teacher, and i see and hear things most have no clue about. Being somewhat in the loop is helpful into my base knowledge, rather than being an outsider who just hears snipets of things that have no relevance.

Homeschooling is a good idea, but not the entire answer on how one gains an education.


Why don't we just teach kids how to surf the net properly? Teach them how to properly source information. Teach them how to discern truth from commercials.

Then tell them to go play.

constituent
04-02-2009, 01:33 PM
My wife is 4th grade teacher, and i see and hear things most have no clue about. Being somewhat in the loop is helpful into my base knowledge, rather than being an outsider who just hears snipets of things that have no relevance.

I dated a fourth grade teacher for years, her mother was a fourth grade teacher... i'm pretty "in the loop." I also attended public schools, so i'm not exactly an "outsider" either.



Homeschooling is a good idea, but not the entire answer on how one gains an education.

So then continued extortion of money, property, etc. from others to pay for your wife's salary, all so almost no one gets educated, is your answer?


I think you need to check your priorities.

Truth Warrior
04-02-2009, 01:33 PM
Public-School Outrages by Anthony Gregory (http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory99.html)

What If Public Schools Were Abolished? by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/public-schools-abolished.html)

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 01:33 PM
Wow, "the government's" you say?

Do "we" not pay out of pocket for the services listed above?

They as much "the government's" as the schools are.

donnay
04-02-2009, 01:34 PM
Is homeschooling the 'be all' answer to this debate? I don't think so.

If anyone has a better answer or idea or plan, lets hear it.

I have a solution--get the federal government out of EVERY aspect of our lives!

Fire the Department of Education.

Give the states back their authority and let the education be given back to the parents and communities!

Get the feds out of 'law enforcement' -- period!

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 01:34 PM
Those other "services" ( so called ) are NOT "brainwashing" the next generation.

I have yet to be ordered to perform any action that would require "brainwashing the next generation."

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 01:35 PM
You think I care about how many I can convince? It's MY money! It's MY labor! I do NOT want the government to spend it on schools. Period. Universal delivery is NOT needed or even good. Stop using everyone else as an excuse and take responsibility for what you are recommending. You never said you advocate public funding, you just wrote up a little blurb of how it should be done, that doesn't make any sense.

I agree that universal delivery isnt necessary or even good. That being said, you have to live in the real world. When 90% (probably 98%) of society is behind an idea, and willing to kill you to enforce it, you can choose to fight and die (or waste your time) or find a way to maximize liberty in the short run with the hope that you can convince them later to see the error of their ways.

Private schools with public funding can be done in our lifetime. Destruction of public funding of schools will not happen short of a complete breakdown of society.

JK/SEA
04-02-2009, 01:36 PM
My idea is to just give a kid some books, a gas lantern for light and tell them good luck.
Abe Lincoln did it this way....HAH!

I haven't read any solutions that are based in reality yet. How do you go about educating children in today's society?

still waiting for a cogent and lucid answer.

Dr.3D
04-02-2009, 01:38 PM
I have yet to be ordered to perform any action that would require "brainwashing the next generation."

At least not that you would recognize as "brainwashing".

Have you ever had your class stand to perform the pledge of allegiance to the flag?

constituent
04-02-2009, 01:39 PM
My idea is to just give a kid some books, a gas lantern for light and tell them good luck.
Abe Lincoln did it this way....HAH!

I take this as an admission to the error of your ways.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 01:40 PM
My idea is to just give a kid some books, a gas lantern for light and tell them good luck.
Abe Lincoln did it this way....HAH!

There is something to be said for that, actually. I have no doubt that if taught to read and provided with books, the only real instruction I would have needed would have been math. The rest I could have done on my own.

Also, real work is great education. Most of the reason that kids in modern society are idiots is due to the fact that when they arent in the classroom they are acting like fucking monkeys or in front of the idiot box. Why not bring back apprenticeships?

donnay
04-02-2009, 01:41 PM
My idea is to just give a kid some books, a gas lantern for light and tell them good luck.
Abe Lincoln did it this way....HAH!

Most self-educated people have contributed a great deal to society.

My husband is a 10th grade drop out. He has an IQ of 141. Edit to add: In addition to being self-educated he has many skills. Lots of children, unfortunately, do not have skills coming out of public education, anymore.

I went all the way to college and I can tell you that I have learned more out of the system then I ever learned inside the system.

rockandrollsouls
04-02-2009, 01:42 PM
STOP Demonizing Teachers and Cops.

Let's go on the Ron Paul Blow back principal.

When at the Campaign for Liberty I brought a very smart history teacher with me. I have opened her eyes to the bullshit between the whole REP & DEM Hypocrisy thing and she came with an open mind. After several of the speakers trashed teachers then at the lunch a few of the members trashing teachers she closed her mind and had a bitter Taste about the whole thing. Next time when you are speaking in public or to others think about how you turned away a potential supporter.

We need to focus ON THE SYSTEM not the INDIVIDUALS !!!!!!
It is the system that keeps and maintains the Rotten Apples.
It is the system that is Dumbing down our kids.
If the system was changed SO would the teaching.

THERE ARE A LOT of GOOD teachers and cops WE NEED their support to fight TYRANNY.

Get lost. I don't demonize teachers or cops, nor do I lump them in one group and make generalizations but I can understand why people here have gripes with them and I think it's perfectly justified, so don't tell me or anyone else how to think.

constituent
04-02-2009, 01:42 PM
Also, real work is great education. Most of the reason that kids in modern society are idiots is due to the fact that when they arent in the classroom they are acting like fucking monkeys or in front of the idiot box. Why not bring back apprenticeships?

You mean actually teach someone something?

But then they might get ahead in life... What good is that for the collective?

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 01:42 PM
Wow, "the government's" you say?

Do "we" not pay out of pocket for the services listed above?

Yeah, I was kinda thinking that they were OUR damn roads. We paid for them!

Truth Warrior
04-02-2009, 01:46 PM
I have yet to be ordered to perform any action that would require "brainwashing the next generation." Of course you haven't the lame standardized "dumbed down" curriculum does the job for you. :p Remedial reading in high school, gimme a frickin' break.

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 01:46 PM
The information they are lacking is that they are in a profession of scumbags.

I disagree. Do you think the same of teachers in private schools? How about homeschoolers? Or, how about yourself, because if you have ever discussed what is going on with our government with someone else, you have been in a teaching capacity.

It's not the profession; it's the government indoctrination that is imposed on public schools, teachers and our kids.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 01:50 PM
I agree that universal delivery isnt necessary or even good. That being said, you have to live in the real world. When 90% (probably 98%) of society is behind an idea, and willing to kill you to enforce it, you can choose to fight and die (or waste your time) or find a way to maximize liberty in the short run with the hope that you can convince them later to see the error of their ways.

Private schools with public funding can be done in our lifetime. Destruction of public funding of schools will not happen short of a complete breakdown of society.

Private schools with public funding are still public schools. I makes no difference to me if your idea makes them better or more efficient, I am still paying for something I never want to use. If I am never going to use it, why would I care if it is improved?

Kraig
04-02-2009, 01:51 PM
I disagree. Do you think the same of teachers in private schools? How about homeschoolers? Or, how about yourself, because if you have ever discussed what is going on with our government with someone else, you have been in a teaching capacity.

It's not the profession; it's the government indoctrination that is imposed on public schools, teachers and our kids.

Sorry, by profession I was referring to public school teachers, not teachers in general. For the most part I think they either stay in either the public or private sector, I have not heard of many teachers that switch back and forth, and the public teaching jobs are FAR easier to get.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
04-02-2009, 01:52 PM
Fuck off. I don't demonize teachers or cops, nor do I lump them in one group and make generalizations but I can understand why people here have gripes with them and I think it's perfectly justified, so don't tell me or anyone else how to think.

If someone is born a midget and chooses to exploit the part in a circus, then they should be laughed at and belittled. To the contrary, if someone is born a man amongst boys and chooses to play the part of their servant, all for their betterment, then they should be respected.
Teaching is what it is today because Socrates, the founder of Western Civilization, considered the possibility of helping a slave's mind recollect by his serving it as a midwife philosopher (a serving teacher).
Without Socrates defining teaching in such a way, Civilization would have never been able to afford itself because no amount of money would have been sufficient to pay teachers what they deserve.

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 01:57 PM
Private schools with public funding are still public schools. I makes no difference to me if your idea makes them better or more efficient, I am still paying for something I never want to use. If I am never going to use it, why would I care if it is improved?

because it will turn out better thinkers who are less likely to be sheep and more likely to listen to you.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 01:58 PM
The information they are lacking is that they are in a profession of scumbags.

And the point you are missing is just because he's in a profession of scumbags doesn't mean he's a scumbag.

Now, if he can avoid being a scumbag in Washington, Dastardly Cesspool, then why can't someone avoid being a scumbag in a public school? And if they do, do they deserve to be demonized, or given a freaking medal?

Individuals are individual individuals, and as soon as you start painting with a broad brush you're no better than the Missouri Information Analysis Center.

Truth Warrior
04-02-2009, 01:58 PM
About 20 years ago ~70% of the nation was functionally illiterate AND "government schooled". :rolleyes:

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 01:58 PM
people like you frighten me. fortunately, you seem to be highly concentrated in NY, just please don't both venturing out too much.

What are you talking about? The roads are "owned" by the govt in the same sense that the schools are, are they not? Maybe you don't think either is owned by the govt, but the point is that they are equivalent services monoplized by the govt. Some of you have said it's different with the roads because we paid for them. But you also paid for the schools. Perhaps all libertarian govt road workers should quit and let the roads fill with potholes.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 02:00 PM
If someone is born a midget and chooses to exploit the part in a circus, then they should be laughed at and belittled. To the contrary, if someone is born a man amongst boys and chooses to play the part of their servant, all for their betterment, then they should be respected.
Teaching is what it is today because Socrates, the founder of Western Civilization, considered the possibility of helping a slave's mind recollect by his serving it as a midwife philosopher (a serving teacher).
Without Socrates defining teaching in such a way, Civilization would have never been able to afford itself because no amount of money would have been sufficient to pay teachers what they deserve.

Socrates did not understand how free market prices are determined. Something is not worth some obscure or mystical value.

constituent
04-02-2009, 02:00 PM
because it will turn out better thinkers who are less likely to be sheep and more likely to listen to you.

which is why i disagree w/ minarchy.


imo, the best way to teach a student about life is through the living.

the current system is fail, let them learn this firsthand. let the rotten fruits be born before their eyes.

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 02:00 PM
Have you ever had your class stand to perform the pledge of allegiance to the flag?

No, I haven't. I will admit I stand there like an idiot, but do you even think I'd bother to yell at 25 teenagers to stand? I have better things to worry about.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
04-02-2009, 02:00 PM
Sorry, by profession I was referring to public school teachers, not teachers in general. For the most part I think they either stay in either the public or private sector, I have not heard of many teachers that switch back and forth, and the public teaching jobs are FAR easier to get.

Socrates was the public teacher serving the slave's mind as a midwife philosopher. It was Aristotle who chose to return to private teaching when he taught Alexander the Great not as a serving teacher but as his trainer. Such teachers always existed prior to Socrates in that they were needed to train the children of the ruling elite so that they could one day take up their rightful positions as rulers.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 02:00 PM
What are you talking about? The roads are "owned" by the govt in the same sense that the schools are, are they not? Maybe you don't think either is owned by the govt, but the point is that they are equivalent services monoplized by the govt. Some of you have said it's different with the roads because we paid for them. But you also paid for the schools. Perhaps all libertarian govt road workers should quit and let the roads fill with potholes.

This government of the people, by the people and for the people seems to have perished from the Earth...

*sigh*

I still say that doesn't mean everyone who works for the government has forgotten where they come from or who the whole goofy thing is supposed to be for, and it doesn't mean that none of them are trying.

Yes, kill the system. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 02:01 PM
Sorry, by profession I was referring to public school teachers, not teachers in general. For the most part I think they either stay in either the public or private sector, I have not heard of many teachers that switch back and forth, and the public teaching jobs are FAR easier to get.

My only point Kraig, and of course you can take it or leave it, is that some of those teachers, and maybe only SOME, are upset at what they're seeing. But, simply do not know enough to pinpoint what is really the problem. Do you ever remember feeling like that yourself? It is those people I think we can reach. After all, what do we really gain by wholesale insulting an entire profession, besides a little momentary satisfaction? We certainly don't forward the movement or make any converts. It's only my opinion, but I truly think that we will win many more people over if we use persuasion, reason and facts.

Maybe we're all just so damn frustrated at this point, that it's too hard to have patience with those who don't get it.

constituent
04-02-2009, 02:01 PM
What are you talking about? The roads are "owned" by the govt in the same sense that the schools are, are they not? Maybe you don't think either is owned by the govt, but the point is that they are equivalent services monoplized by the govt. Some of you have said it's different with the roads because we paid for them. But you also paid for the schools. Perhaps all libertarian govt road workers should quit and let the roads fill with potholes.

Strawman. I'm well aware that "we" pay for the schools as well.

Nice try though.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 02:02 PM
And the point you are missing is just because he's in a profession of scumbags doesn't mean he's a scumbag.

Now, if he can avoid being a scumbag in Washington, Dastardly Cesspool, then why can't someone avoid being a scumbag in a public school? And if they do, do they deserve to be demonized, or given a freaking medal?

Individuals are individual individuals, and as soon as you start painting with a broad brush you're no better than the Missouri Information Analysis Center.

You sure that's the point I'm missing? Or is that just the point you THINK I am missing? Or you want me to say something to make that clear to you? Do you really think that I think Ron Paul is a scumbag? Do you really think that I think my high school buddy turned cop is a scumbag?

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 02:04 PM
Of course you haven't the lame standardized "dumbed down" curriculum does the job for you. :p Remedial reading in high school, gimme a frickin' break.

I didn't design the curriculum. The schools, the curriculum, the mandates, all these things are a reality right now. Would you rather have the schools staffed by decent thinking people or brainwashed drones? That doesn't seem fair to the students. At least I know enough to be against the mindless Pledge ritual, the tests, the textbooks, the mandatory unionism, the nonsensical rules.

Would you rather have Ron Paul quit Congress along with the handful of other congressman who have a modicum of common sense once in while?

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 02:06 PM
This government of the people, by the people and for the people seems to have perished from the Earth...

*sigh*

I still say that doesn't mean everyone who works for the government has forgotten where they come from or who the whole goofy thing is supposed to be for, and it doesn't mean that none of them are trying.

Yes, kill the system. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

That's my point!

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 02:06 PM
You sure that's the point I'm missing? Or is that just the point you THINK I am missing? Or you want me to say something to make that clear to you? Do you really think that I think Ron Paul is a scumbag? Do you really think that I think my high school buddy turned cop is a scumbag?

Well, I don't know what to think. You say that's the information they're missing, but you don't sound as if your friend is missing the information. You make it sound like he's painfully aware of this information, gets reminded every day, and puts up with it at great personal pain and disgust because he wants the public to be served by someone who is human.

And I say bravo.


That's my point!

And to you I not only say bravo, but I got your back. Thank you for trying to get the job done despite the fact that you have to fight the system tooth and nail to do it right.

Truth Warrior
04-02-2009, 02:06 PM
Close the Government Schools by Vin Suprynowicz (http://www.lewrockwell.com/suprynowicz/suprynowicz92.html)


Public Education Fails by Charley Reese (http://www.lewrockwell.com/reese/reese21.html)

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 02:07 PM
What are you talking about? The roads are "owned" by the govt in the same sense that the schools are, are they not? Maybe you don't think either is owned by the govt, but the point is that they are equivalent services monoplized by the govt. Some of you have said it's different with the roads because we paid for them. But you also paid for the schools. Perhaps all libertarian govt road workers should quit and let the roads fill with potholes.

See, the thing is that the government itself owns nothing. WE are supposed to own the government and thus everything that the government funded with our tax dollars.

Now, about your statement about potholes. Are you saying that the only way a pothole could be filled is if a government worker fills it? Surely not.

Are we just missing each other on semantics?

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 02:09 PM
Strawman. I'm well aware that "we" pay for the schools as well.

Nice try though.

What's the strawman? The point is you use govt services. As long as the govt monopolizes those services, don't you want the run halfway decently? Would rather they be shitty just to make a point???

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
04-02-2009, 02:09 PM
Socrates did not understand how free market prices are determined. Something is not worth some obscure or mystical value.

No one understood the market like Socrates. While the Sophists were charging money to answer questions asked by the rich, Socrates was asking questions of the poor in the market place for free. At times, a question would burn so much in him that he would rush to put on his robe to race to the market on the ice while barefooted with his students following up hobbling after him.

rockandrollsouls
04-02-2009, 02:09 PM
If someone is born a midget and chooses to exploit the part in a circus, then they should be laughed at and belittled. To the contrary, if someone is born a man amongst boys and chooses to play the part of their servant, all for their betterment, then they should be respected.
Teaching is what it is today because Socrates, the founder of Western Civilization, considered the possibility of helping a slave's mind recollect by his serving it as a midwife philosopher (a serving teacher).
Without Socrates defining teaching in such a way, Civilization would have never been able to afford itself because no amount of money would have been sufficient to pay teachers what they deserve.

I don't need a western Civ lesson or a stupid metaphor.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 02:11 PM
Now, about your statement about potholes. Are you saying that the only way a pothole could be filled is if a government worker fills it? Surely not.

Are we just missing each other on semantics?

I think so. I think he's intimating that no roadworker but a libertarian is likely to do it right. ;)

rockandrollsouls
04-02-2009, 02:12 PM
No one understood the market like Socrates. While the Sophists were charging money to answer questions asked by the rich, Socrates was asking questions of the poor in the market place for free. At times, a question would burn so much in him that he would rush to put on his robe to race to the market on the ice while barefooted with his students following up hobbling after him.

Socrates was did not understand the marketplace. Don't try to twist it to make it sound like he did.

Truth Warrior
04-02-2009, 02:12 PM
I didn't design the curriculum. The schools, the curriculum, the mandates, all these things are a reality right now. Would you rather have the schools staffed by decent thinking people or brainwashed drones? That doesn't seem fair to the students. At least I know enough to be against the mindless Pledge ritual, the tests, the textbooks, the mandatory unionism, the nonsensical rules.

Would you rather have Ron Paul quit Congress along with the handful of other congressman who have a modicum of common sense once in while?

Ron Paul DOES NOT a COTUS make. :rolleyes:

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 02:13 PM
See, the thing is that the government itself owns nothing. WE are supposed to own the government and thus everything that the government funded with our tax dollars.

I understand that. The point is the govt controls them right now, legitimately or illegitimately


Now, about your statement about potholes. Are you saying that the only way a pothole could be filled is if a government worker fills it?

As long as the govt controls and monopolizes the road system only government-funded workers will fill them. As long as the schools are controlled by the govt only government-funded teachers will teach in them.

acptulsa
04-02-2009, 02:13 PM
What's the strawman? The point is you use govt services. As long as the govt monopolizes those services, don't you want the run halfway decently? Would rather they be shitty just to make a point???

Just as soon as we sabotage the systems, the liberals have someone to blame for their failures. And they just love that...

PrairieQueen
04-02-2009, 02:14 PM
I have lurked here for a long time and almost everyday I consider deleting my account because of threads like this.

So, I know it won't matter to some, but I would like to say WELCOME to any teachers or cops or anyone who is here to learn, like myself. I hope I won't delete my account tomorrow :(:mad:

constituent
04-02-2009, 02:14 PM
What's the strawman? The point is you use govt services. As long as the govt monopolizes those services, don't you want the run halfway decently? Would rather they be shitty just to make a point???

They are shitty. Your whole argument is non-sense b/c it is based on the assumption that the schools are run halfway decently, knowing that to be a lie.

Prove to me that schools are run halfway decently first, then you will have legs to stand on.

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 02:15 PM
And to you I not only say bravo, but I got your back. Thank you for trying to get the job done despite the fact that you have to fight the system tooth and nail to do it right.

Thank you. Unfortunately, some people around here seem to want to cut off their noses to spite their faces by pretending that, under the current system, living life without utilizing govt-controlled services on some level is a viable option for most.

constituent
04-02-2009, 02:15 PM
I guess you havent been reading your own work much.

my point stands, thanks.

besides, i have nothing to fear.

(nice threat btw, nice form for a 'minarchist')

constituent
04-02-2009, 02:17 PM
Thank you. Unfortunately, some people around here seem to want to cut off their noses to spite their faces by pretending that, under the current system, living life without utilizing govt-controlled services on some level is a viable option for most.

...and we should concern ourselves with "for most," why again?

Minarchy4Sale
04-02-2009, 02:17 PM
my point stands, thanks.

besides, i have nothing to fear.

except prison, unless of course you anarchs are all talk and no action, which I suspect is the case.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 02:18 PM
My only point Kraig, and of course you can take it or leave it, is that some of those teachers, and maybe only SOME, are upset at what they're seeing. But, simply do not know enough to pinpoint what is really the problem. Do you ever remember feeling like that yourself? It is those people I think we can reach. After all, what do we really gain by wholesale insulting an entire profession, besides a little momentary satisfaction? We certainly don't forward the movement or make any converts. It's only my opinion, but I truly think that we will win many more people over if we use persuasion, reason and facts.

Maybe we're all just so damn frustrated at this point, that it's too hard to have patience with those who don't get it.

Point taken man, I just think that those who are fed up with the system would be more likely to agree with me when I insult it, rather than get offended. I'm really very friendly in real life though, this is completely not a big deal. I think this thread has turned more into this and that side trying to get the other to admit they're wrong than anything else.

Also, there is much to gain by insulting an entire profession, depending on who you are talking to. Sure talk to a teacher and mouth off about the public school system and you might lose any chance at furthering the conversion. However, talk to a 21 year old who still has years of a horrible public school experience fresh in his mind, and the same mouthing off might get you enough respect for him to keep listening.

Trust me, when I am at the bar chatting up a random stranger about politics or whatever, I tread slowly and carefully, testing the waters to see how they respond to smaller things. The forums just don't work like that IMO, for the most part we are all saying what we want to say rather than having a conversation with someone individually, and often people are just more blunt and open than they would be face to face.

I really don't go running around offending people, more often than not it's ME who feels offended by their extreme non-interest or apathy, and then it's me who shuts up before they ever realized what I wanted to talk about.

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 02:20 PM
They are shitty. Your whole argument is non-sense b/c it is based on the assumption that the schools are run halfway decently, knowing that to be a lie.

Prove to me that schools are run halfway decently first, then you will have legs to stand on.

The roads are shitty too. But if you push out the only people willing to work on them, they'll be even shittier. If you tell all the thinking teachers to quit the schools and leave them to union bosses and morons, the schools will be even shittier. Same with the cops. Do you want to tell what good, honest cops there are to quit on a principle and leave only the thugs?

It's like term limits in Congress. When all congressmen who believe in term limits quit after three terms on the principle, they make it practically less likely term limits will actually ever pass.

constituent
04-02-2009, 02:20 PM
As long as the govt controls and monopolizes the road system only government-funded workers will fill them. As long as the schools are controlled by the govt only government-funded teachers will teach in them.

Exactly, and as long as "well-meaning teachers" continue to legitimize the government and its schools, the government will continue to control education and thru it the nation's future.

constituent
04-02-2009, 02:22 PM
except prison, unless of course you anarchs are all talk and no action, which I suspect is the case.

do what?

"you anarchs?"

"all talk?"

(what kinda baiting crap is that?)

wtf are you talking about, and why would i have to fear prison for expressing my thoughts on society?

you're just being ridiculous.

PrairieQueen
04-02-2009, 02:22 PM
The forums just don't work like that IMO, for the most part we are all saying what we want to say rather than having a conversation with someone individually, and often people are just more blunt and open than they would be face to face.



Why? There are still real life people on the "other" side of the computer. Why would you, meaning everyone, not talk to them like you do someone in the bar?

I don't get it...

newbitech
04-02-2009, 02:23 PM
Exactly, and as long as "well-meaning teachers" continue to legitimize the government and its schools, the government will continue to control education and thru it the nation's future.


sort of like our inflated currency and the recent mark to mark rules being loosened up. As long as banks are given the go ahead to legitimize worthless assets, we'll keep taxing future generations to pay for the bail outs.

constituent
04-02-2009, 02:24 PM
The roads are shitty too. But if you push out the only people willing to work on them, they'll be even shittier.

...and then folks will stop asking for competition and start demanding it.

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 02:24 PM
There's NOTHING "MAGIC" about government. It's ALL just people.

Who's talking about magic? Do you not see that when the govt owns the roads (or controls them or whatever you want to call it), the people who maintain the roads will be paid by the govt. What do you except? A private third-party to pay people to maintain the government's roads? The point is that the govt does control these things right now. Ipso facto, it's the only one who's going to maintain and staff these govt-controlled things.

constituent
04-02-2009, 02:25 PM
Why? There are still real life people on the "other" side of the computer. Why would you, meaning everyone, not talk to them like you do someone in the bar?

I don't get it...

You frame it as though this is a bad thing... I wish folks were more direct in real life like they are on the internet.

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 02:25 PM
...and we should concern ourselves with "for most," why again?

Congratulations on managing to live life completely free of all govt-controlled services.

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 02:25 PM
Thank you. Unfortunately, some people around here seem to want to cut off their noses to spite their faces by pretending that, under the current system, living life without utilizing govt-controlled services on some level is a viable option for most.

Which "services" are you thinking of specifically? Just curious.

Personally, I don't think it is that so much. I think it is that most people around here disagree with the system as it now exists. But, in attacking an entire profession, they are forgetting one of their highest held principles regarding collectivism vs. the individual.

Is your stance that you don't agree with public schools, etc., but that as long as they exist, you're one person who is trying to make them the best they can be?

newbitech
04-02-2009, 02:26 PM
Who's talking about magic? Do you not see that when the govt owns the roads (or controls them or whatever you want to call it), the people who maintain the roads will be paid by the govt. What do you except? A private third-party to pay people to maintain the government's roads? The point is that the govt does control these things right now. Ipso facto, it's the only one who's going to maintain and staff these govt-controlled things.

point of order, I don't think anyone is saying that maintain roads is a function of government unsupported by the constitution. Tho it should be states that pay for this. The federal govt has no business in schools.

NYgs23
04-02-2009, 02:27 PM
...and then folks will stop asking for competition and start demanding it.

If you believe that the best way to privatize education and privatize transporation is by allowing them to go to the dogs first, you must also be hoping that Bernanke inflates a whole lot and totally destroys the dollar, so that people will demand private competition. I'd prefer to avoid taking detour through the Dark Ages in order to get to freedom. Besides such a situation is just as, if not more likely to lead to more tyranny. Govt control tends to grow in the midst of misery and deprivation.

Kraig
04-02-2009, 02:27 PM
Well, I don't know what to think. You say that's the information they're missing, but you don't sound as if your friend is missing the information. You make it sound like he's painfully aware of this information, gets reminded every day, and puts up with it at great personal pain and disgust because he wants the public to be served by someone who is human.

And I say bravo.



And to you I not only say bravo, but I got your back. Thank you for trying to get the job done despite the fact that you have to fight the system tooth and nail to do it right.

Well for better or worse, he doesn't even really serve anyone or wish to do so anymore. He works a desk job in the jailhouse basically filling out paperwork and making phone calls because he doesn't want to have any part of the "real" police work. For awhile I felt really sorry for him because he was a thug in high school and becoming a police officer was his idea of turning away from that lifestyle, only for him to quickly find out that he was still hanging out with a bunch of thugs so now he just keeps to himself, but everyone has to take their own path. Anyways, thanks for having my back, it does seem like we are all in this together. :)

constituent
04-02-2009, 02:29 PM
Congratulations on managing to live life completely free of all govt-controlled services.

i say one thing, you quote it and then say some completely irrelevant garbage... i don't get it. (well, i do actually get it.)

donnay
04-02-2009, 02:29 PM
...and then folks will stop asking for competition and start demanding it.

+1776


NYgs23 has proven the point, throughout this thread, conditioning and indoctrinating people to think resistance is futile. *SIGH*

newbitech
04-02-2009, 02:30 PM
If you believe that the best way to privatize education and privatize transporation is by allowing them to go to the dogs first, you must also be hoping that Bernanke inflates a whole lot and totally destroys the dollar, so that people will demand private competition. I'd prefer to avoid taking detour through the Dark Ages in order to get to freedom. Besides such a situation is just as, if not more likely to lead to more tyranny. Govt control tends to grow in the midst of misery and deprivation.


Point of fact, Dr. Paul has been trying for years to get people to see how our economy is being undermined. It actually did take a huge collapse for people to say hmmm.. maybe he was right.

I think sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, it seems like a universal law at least in my own personal observations.

spotics
04-02-2009, 02:30 PM
In all honesty education itself is a process of indoctrination. As a former teacher who is considering returning to the field, and as someone who went to Catholic, Christian, and public schools, I have to say there are problems with all three of them. In all honesty, if I had to choose which one is best, I would say the Catholic. Public schools limit what teachers can teach, or mandate them to teach certain aspects in little time making it impossible for the students to comprehend things. Catholic schools are a little better, but almost always use the state standard, however they a little lax in their rules allowing teachers to cover a little less but giving them enough time for students to comprhend. I like them because I felt like I learned more and was taught by quality teachers.

I will never send my children to a Christian school. Having went to one, I came out a born again, neoconservative, book burning, gay hating, non-protestant bashing asshole. The teachers had no idea what they were doing. I will send my child to the lousey public school system in my area before I will send them to a Christian school.

LibertyEagle
04-02-2009, 02:31 PM
except prison, unless of course you anarchs are all talk and no action, which I suspect is the case.

"you anarchs"??? :confused:

Are they all the same? Because, quite frankly, I have seen quite a lot of difference in each person's opinion and manner. At least on this forum.