Huckabee won the values Voter debate by 63%

[Matt Collins]

What is everyone's thought on the Values Voter debate?

[Qiu]

www.valuesvoterdebate.com's homepage isn't showing any results... anyone find it?

[mdh]

That Ron Paul won.

[Richie]

I'm looking as well. Can't find it.

[zebov]

As much as I like Ron Paul and his views and stances, sometimes I think his demeanor during debates is less than optimal. I think he could have come across a little more relaxed. I'm not a fan of the yelling so much.

[ItsTime]

it sucked, was boring, stupid and pandering. Ron Paul was the only one not having is lips around someones co....nevermind. He still did win though, if we define win as telling the truth and not...nevermind

[Geronimo]

I got me a headache, this big and it has Keyes, Brownback, Tancredo, Cox, Hunter, and Huckabee written all over it

[ItsTime]

As much as I like Ron Paul and his views and stances, sometimes I think his demeanor during debates is less than optimal. I think he could have come across a little more relaxed. I'm not a fan of the yelling so much.

the only time he really yells is when he is trying to talk over the cheers :)

[wgadget]

You staying for the "conclusions" that are supposed to be coming on at 10:45??

[wgadget]

Ooop...I guess it's not conclusions, it's Commentary.

[1000-points-of-fright]

He may have won philosophically and constitutionally. But in the eyes of those organizations and their supporters he's in league with Satan because he won't use the government to enforce the will of God and hasten the rapture.

[hvac ak47]

Well its clear Ron is the only one who understands what the role of government should be. He answered everything honestly, while others were pandering and kissing ass. Ron Paul won hands down!!

[1000-points-of-fright]

Ron Paul was the only one not having is lips around someones co....nevermind.

I think "cross" was the word you were looking for.

[chiefsmurph]

Good point. I really doubt that limited government is really what those people were looking for.

[Mr. White]

Anytime more people hear his message he wins.

I'd like to see Cox throw his support in for Ron.

[jblosser]

People, stop pretending everyone in a given group thinks exactly the same. You know Ron's a Christian. There are plenty of other Christians in that group who agree with him, and now that they've heard him, they can.

Yes, there are the batshit insane bloodthirsty ones, but we don't really like it when the rest of the world judges all of America by Bush, do we?

[10thAmendmentMan]

I watched it for about a half hour. The questions... my *insert major deity here* were most of them absolutely awful. If you were to make a satire of what an ultra-Christian Republican is, you could just take direct footage from the people that asked the questions and save yourself the effort.

I did see Paul answer a question on libertarianism and drug/prostitution/gay marriage laws, and I thought he explained it well enough that even that crowd had to begrudgingly accept his response.

[10thAmendmentMan]

I'd like to see Cox throw his support in for Ron.

His vote (along with his wife's) won't help much nationally.

[richard1984]

I got me a headache, this big and it has Keyes, Brownback, Tancredo, Cox, Hunter, and Huckabee written all over it

I echo that. I think that it really did give me a headache. I don't know what else would have.

but, as always, Ron Paul rocked!

Yes, he stumbled over his words a little, but I guarantee you he's done more campaigning lately than all of the rest of them (maybe combined...I don't know--I don't follow the others).

His closing four minutes made up for any earlier missteps. That bit on getting out of the UN, WTO, etc. etc. was really good, too.

[saku39]

I came away from it with


that Ron Paul has major guts showing up at a debate with this crowd
this is probably the best debate I've seen so far for giving equal time
the idea that Huckabee is trying to run as vice president
that Keyes is completely crazy
that Keyes is there to attack Ron Paul
Tancredo is worse than I thought he was
Brownback is worse than I thought he was
that John Cox is a bad public speaker
that Duncan Hunter scares me as a person
that there is more dislike for the IRS than I knew existed
that there is more dislike for NAU than I knew existed
that rational arguments took a backseat to pandering in this debate
that the questioners and audience are short sighted on issues of government internvention

[Richie]

Bump.

[wbbgjr]

What is everyone's thought on the Values Voter debate?

The post game show had this older lady on.. she was talking about values and the guy asked him about her feeling of Ron Paul. I was ready for her to rip into Ron Paul (for saying no to legislation against porn, etc), but surprisingly she explained the Libertarian philosophy and said that she though RP was genuine and has a lot of good ideas.

Can you imagine what the MSM would have done to RP?

[zebov]

Mike Huckabee wins 63%

[Richie]

Ron Paul came in second, but lost 9 votes.

[zebov]

Huckabee 219
Ron Paul 44
Alan Keyes 24

[crhoades]

Just announced. He lost 9 votes.

[hopeforamerica]

They are talking about the results now. Huckabee won by a landslide. Not a suprise. Ron Paul second, but a very distant second.

[Cindy]

Paul lost 9 votes from before the debate to after. It wasn't good for him to be there.

[MGreen]

That was a waste of my night.

[Magsec]

Of the people who lost votes, he lost the least, didn't he?

[richard1984]

Ron Paul came in second, but lost 9 votes.

They probably got fed up with the other idiots and left.

(maybe not. I don't know)

[manuel]

I'd like to talk to those people that changed their minds.

These people are really excited that Huckabee won.

[Starks]

50 votes for Ron...

Huckabee with 223...

[Sakimoto]

Ron came in second.

[zebov]

This seems like a small number of voters... I was expecting at least a thousand people. Did they not get as many people there as they had expected?

[UCFGavin]

link?

[UCFGavin]

and big surprise who won it

[Cindy]

They say that they were looking for the candidate to get behind- from out of their debate. They said, God was going to reveal who it was to them. They said, they represent 36% of the voting block and can have a huge impact in the primaries.

They bought the line that Huckabee said it was his faith in God that got him into politics. That won it for Huckabee.

Frightening evening over all.

i'm getting all of this from their post debate discussion.

[themanhere]

They said mike huckabee won with 215 votes and ron paul came in second with 44.

The holy than thou lady says ron paul lost 10 votes. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT! Once you drink our kool aid you wont flip flop.

[Spike Kojima]

Wow they are really pushing the huckster.

[Daveforliberty]

Huckabee is smooth as a ... preacher. He speaks to emotion rather than to intellect. The pastoral cadence is something everyone in the room is used to.

Having said that, the margin of his victory is so large (he "picked up 100 votes") that it seems like a setup.

[Cindy]

Of the people who lost votes, he lost the least, didn't he?


Yes. The no shows lost the most. Romney got ZERO votes.

[american2]

This poll is messed up.

Huckabee gained 100 supporters of the other candidates in 3 hours?

Only around 300 votes cast? They just said 2000 were in attendance.

This poll was rigged in some way.

As you heard, these people were hoping for something like this to happen. That crazy baptist lady was saying how she had been praying for it.

They simply asked people to switch their votes to make it look like huckabee won the debate. Evangelicals/Pentecostals do this kind of thing all the time to prove miracles, like with the fake faith healing, etc.

Those 9 who switched from RP supported Huckabee all along.

[max]

Paul lost 9 votes from before the debate to after. It wasn't good for him to be there.

Christians for WW3 coalition....Joe Farah is a crazed warmonger

eff them hypocrites....didnt they ever hear about "blessed are the peacemakeres"...Read the friggin gospel u morons!

[Cindy]

link?


http://www.afa.net/debate/

it's on now

[Starks]

Maybe those 10 voters dropped dead upon hearing Alan Keyes.

[jblosser]

These were selected voters. Don't imagine what people said during the debate had anything to do with the conclusion.

It was not bad for Ron to be there, he wasn't talking to just the hand-selected voters.

[Cam]

Paul second in territory that was not favorable to his message. The questions sounded like they wanted to use the Federal Government to legislate their moral values.

Where will the Value Voters go when/if Huckabee drops out of the race?

[JosephTheLibertarian]

he lost 9 votes? I thought it said he gained 9

[literatim]

This debate a joke. I mean it is suppose to be for Christians, but they have a Rabbi asking questions. Apostasy.

[max]

They say that they were looking for the candidate to get behind- from out of their debate. They said, God was going to reveal who it was to them. They said, they represent 36% of the voting block and can have a huge impact in the primaries.

They bought the line that Huckabee said it was his faith in God that got him into politics. That won it for Huckabee.

Frightening evening over all.

i'm getting all of this from their post debate discussion.

If thats indicitaive of southern bible belt crowd...we may have a better shot as third party...damn fools

[max]

This debate a joke. I mean it is suppose to be for Christians, but they have a Rabbi asking questions. Apostasy.

and a rabbi who HATES Muslims as evidence by his first question....and did u get a load of that broad whining about how we dont support Israel enough??? ROFL!!!

[krott5333]

what a joke!

its hard to take this thing seriously, i think i'll go to bed now :rolleyes:

[Matt Collins]

The post game show had this older lady on.. she was talking about values and the guy asked him about her feeling of Ron Paul. I was ready for her to rip into Ron Paul (for saying no to legislation against porn, etc), but surprisingly she explained the Libertarian philosophy and said that she though RP was genuine and has a lot of good ideas.

Can you imagine what the MSM would have done to RP?
Was that lady named Phillys from the Eagle Forum?

[literatim]

On the after debate talk, they are asking the Rabbi about Jesus! The nerve!

[Patrick Henry]

Was that lady named Phillys from the Eagle Forum?

yes

[EvilEngineer]

Doesn't matter much, Huckabee doesn't have that much money to continue his campaign. He is praying his recent popularity will help him limp by till January.

[BizmanUSA]

Ron Paul takes 2nd place in Values Voters Debate Strawpoll :)

The only sad part is Huckabee takes first place by large margin!

Cannot understand other than he has his ministry church going for him. :confused:

At one point I think it was him who had extra time and joking asked the ushers to come forward to collect an offering from the crowd! :eek:

BizmanUSA

[themanhere]

The guy after the debate was comparing Iraq to his children saying Christianity isnt all about peace and love and we need to discipline. Hinting that we need to discipline the iraqis.

I'm glad im atheist i couldn't listen to these hypocrites everyday.

[Mastiff]

I'd really like a big table of all the speed-round questions and how everyone answered. I loved that when Paul was the only one with principle not caving to the crowd and the obvious answer. If we could put that up somewhere it would be awesome advertising for more moderate people.

[LibertyOfOne]

What are your thoughts? I didn't get to see it.

[Mr. White]

I came away from it with


that Ron Paul has major guts showing up at a debate with this crowd
this is probably the best debate I've seen so far for giving equal time
the idea that Huckabee is trying to run as vice president
that Keyes is completely crazy
that Keyes is there to attack Ron Paul
Tancredo is worse than I thought he was
Brownback is worse than I thought he was
that John Cox is a bad public speaker
that Duncan Hunter scares me as a person
that there is more dislike for the IRS than I knew existed
that there is more dislike for NAU than I knew existed
that rational arguments took a backseat to pandering in this debate
that the questioners and audience are short sighted on issues of government internvention


Second

[crhoades]

Sometimes it's tough being a Christian. Watching a lot of the post debate commentary is one of those times...:(

[stevedasbach]

The big vote losers were the ones not there. Not surprising that their supporters switched to Huckabee. MSM tells them he's the next most popular candidate, so it must be true.

[CMoore]

Huckabee won by a landslide, but does anyone really think that he is going to win the Republican nomination? If he is not the nominee, who is the next person in line? See?

[mconder]

This could be a good thing. Huckabee will draw votes from the first tier. Ron Paul voters will stay the course. The voting block is becoming further fragmented to the benefit of Ron Paul.

[ctb619]

These people scare me beyond belief. One of these hacks on the post-debate commentary (the hag in the blue dress) was clearly implying that this 300 person straw poll of people they pre-selected is somehow conclusive in expressing the political will of "values voters." She also said that the Huckabee victory is a answer to prayer, meaning that Huckabee is somehow God's choice for president.

[wgadget]

That woman is totally out of line.

It was good to hear the rabbi call Rudy a coward, and it was also good that Phyllis and the other guy were not willing to declare a candidate yet.

They did have some nice things to say about RP.

[kalami]

it's funny that they claim god wants us to vote for huckabee based on their accurate straw poll, MSM has nothing on these spinners

[themanhere]

Huckabee won by a landslide, but does anyone really think that he is going to win the Republican nomination? If he is not the nominee, who is the next person in line? See?

Dont you see what these evangelical neo cons are trying to do? They want us Ron paul supporters to rally behind Huckabee.

Well i tell you one thing if Ron Paul doesnt make it i know where my vote is going and it isnt to anyone with a (R) before their name.

[inibo]

I did like the format of the debate. Not real crazy about the results, but then no one but a John Hagee dispensationalist is going to win with a John Hagee dispensationalist crowd.

[apropos]

I guess we now know for sure that the right wants to use government to control our lives as much as the left.

[kaligula]

nuff said...

Is Huckabee running for president or Baptist Church Deacon..i can't tell half the time. I have yet to be privileged enough to have God tell who to vote for, I'm sorry to say.

Bill Clinton won the evangelical vote both times...that's all you need to know about these claims that "Values Voters" are some monolithic voting block. When republicans run on "family values," it usually means they got a lousy economic record to run on and they get trounced at the polls.

[lapi7]

Well, to be fair, at least this was one debate where every candidated was given equal time and all had to answer the same questions and received the same amount of time...

There was no cherry picking questions for "top tier" candidates which was nice to see.
Now if only the rest of the MSM could follow suit...

[Syren123]

That is for sure. The whole Libertarian philosophy of "you are responsible for yourself" is completely lost on fundies and democrats.

I'm gearing up for the 1000 years of darkness that will follow hard on the heels of this election if it's anyone but Ron Paul.

[Original_Intent]

I agree, the format was great, it gave each candidate time to talk, the moderator mostly kept his piehole shut. Good format. Voting delegates pre-selected by the panel, and they WANTED a result that they could try to convince all Christians to get behind ONE candidate. In the after debate chat they mentioned how their greatest weakness was that their voter block was split. They even made mention about "Would Ron Paul voters unify behind Huckabee" so that the values voter block would wield more power.

Ron Paul did great, he didn't pander to the crowd, Phylis Schafley afterward had good comments about him and honestly mroe of the discussion afterwards was about Ron Paul than Huckabee. He truly frames every debate he participates in.

[Mastiff]

I guess we now know for sure that the right wants to use government to control our lives as much as the left.

Let's not get carried away. Censoring cable isn't like taking 75% of your income, giving us one world government or sticking us with socialized health care. They wouldn't really do that in the end anyway (censor cable). And don't forget that Clinton/Gore was pretty into the censorship stuff too.

[TheConstitutionLives]

The people of the post debate commentary are telling us after fasting and praying for a month that God revealed his personal favorite tonight after the debate and that's who we have to rally around. God had to really think about it for a while and after deliberating with the Son and Holy Spirit for over 30 minutes the three have come together offering the official triune endorsement and it goes to none other than Mike Huckabee. However, many are protesting this devine endorsement citing that God is playing favorites seeing is Huckabee is a PASTOR after all.

[Cindy]

I guess we now know for sure that the right wants to use government to control our lives as much as the left.

True.

At least anyone who doesn;t want the fundie voters and their Bibles to rule the nation who tuned in, saw clearly that Ron, though a Christian Republican, would not do that.

[paulpwns]

I see people like this every day.

Americans are too stupid to elect Ron Paul.

I am in the political science department at a good south eastern school. All of my teachers supposed "experts" don't know anything about limited government. I destroyed my foreign policy teacher on nuclear policy and 2nd amendment rights numerous times. She was a PHD of peace studies. The more liberal i wrote my papers, the better grades I received. All my constitutional law teachers are total left wing nuts. It is a sad state of affairs. I love to have hope and to wish, but it seems that we are wishing for impossible dreams. Sigh.

[V-rod]

A good many of the "family friendly" censorship crowd in Washington have either
1) viewed porn more than once
2) consorted with prostitutes

[Dustancostine]

I came away from it with


that Ron Paul has major guts showing up at a debate with this crowd
this is probably the best debate I've seen so far for giving equal time
the idea that Huckabee is trying to run as vice president
that Keyes is completely crazy
that Keyes is there to attack Ron Paul
Tancredo is worse than I thought he was
Brownback is worse than I thought he was
that John Cox is a bad public speaker
that Duncan Hunter scares me as a person
that there is more dislike for the IRS than I knew existed
that there is more dislike for NAU than I knew existed
that rational arguments took a backseat to pandering in this debate
that the questioners and audience are short sighted on issues of government internvention


I didn't hear Keyes ever attack Paul. I think he is more of a threat to Huckabee and Romney. He went after Romney hard.

[Eli]

God likes pastors
Huckabee was a pastor
God likes Huckabee

Their logic is flawless!

[Dustancostine]

The post game show had this older lady on.. she was talking about values and the guy asked him about her feeling of Ron Paul. I was ready for her to rip into Ron Paul (for saying no to legislation against porn, etc), but surprisingly she explained the Libertarian philosophy and said that she though RP was genuine and has a lot of good ideas.

Can you imagine what the MSM would have done to RP?

Was it Shafly? She supported Goldwater back in the day.

[crhoades]

I did like the format of the debate. Not real crazy about the results, but then no one but a John Hagee dispensationalist is going to win with a John Hagee dispensationalist crowd.

Someone just hit the nail on the head. I guess it would be wrong to want to censor Hagee and keep him off the air, huh? lol!

[lisajames96]

I'm a values voter. And Dr. Paul won the debate to me because he "valued" inegrity and constitutional truth over a sermon-like answer, or cop-out statement that most of them responded with. Not all of us bible thumpers bought into most of that "stuff" being spread out in the debate tonight. I am more eager to donate and campaign now. Dr. Paul held his own and stuck to his guns tonight. Alan Keyes was a disappointment to me. Hope I don't offend anyone. And who is the Cox candidate? I will google him tomorrow.
-lisa

[Starks]

They dropped dead listening to Alan Keyes' bullshit.

[disinter]

Who won? What were the results? I had to leave....

[Dustancostine]

I think RP supporters are pretty much unoffendable. :)

[rpfreedom08]

nice to hear from a supporter that was there. So do you have the names and address of those 9 people that switched there vote from Ron Paul to someone else :D j/k Nice to hear you're going to do more to help promote Ron Paul!

[RevolutionSD]

The little that I saw of it was HORRIBLE, and Alan Keyes is a complete maniac, but they did bring up the North America Union, which is impressive.

[BarryDonegan]

im actually quite proud that someone can go into this type of debate, tell the people he supports the rights to pornography, prostitution, and other willing contracts between individuals who perform unwanted behavior because it protects on the same level his right to be christian, and go out and promote his religion to other people.

he had a great point, and it was a daring point to make in that place.

the ONLY reason he gets away with it, is because he is a more "stereotypical" christian in his day to day life than everyone in that room, and its standing up for his idealogy that makes him controversial, which is every thing their movement is supposed to be about.

and thats why he went into hostile territory and got #2 in the poll.

[joyfullyservingchrist]

I would just like to say that I am also totally disturbed by the debate. There is no other candidate aside from Ron Paul that I can cast a vote for. I am, however, a conservative/Bible believing dispensational Christian.
The reason that I was disturbed (and also have a headache) was not only the answers given by the other candidates...but most of the questions that were asked. I think that it is a flawed notion for Christians to look to government to enforce morality upon America. What Ron Paul said regarding the founding fathers' understanding of free speech is absolutely true. I am all for liberty because I don't want someone pushing their beliefs and morality on me. Not to mention that the Apostle Paul clearly states that we do not have any business judging those outside the Church (and America and the Church are most definitely not synonomous). I desire to live "a quiet and peacable life in all godliness and reverence." I also know (as the founders of our Country did) that most of the greatest acts of evil ever perpetrated upon mankind have been by governments. SO, I am disturbed that so many Christians have bought the lie that somehow government can save them. Unfortunately they are being hoodwinked into giving up their liberties, and will soon find themselves slaves in the new government being given to us by the elitists...

[literatim]

im actually quite proud that someone can go into this type of debate, tell the people he supports the rights to pornography, prostitution, and other willing contracts between individuals who perform unwanted behavior because it protects on the same level his right to be christian, and go out and promote his religion to other people.

The thing is, all Ron Paul said was that its up to the States and federal has nothing to do with it. I am sure a lot of the evangelical Christian don't like hearing that.

[lisajames96]

nice to hear from a supporter that was there. So do you have the names and address of those 9 people that switched there vote from Ron Paul to someone else :D j/k Nice to hear you're going to do more to help promote Ron Paul!
was this to me? let me clarify. I wasn't there, and I didn't vote. I was simply stating that I am a values voter( i vote on my values);) . Since I am also a constitutionalist, I have no conflict of interest with the good doctor on most issues. He clearly won the debate on truth and integrity. Anybody that would switch their vote from RP based off of Huck's answers was on shaky ground anyway.

[sky21448]

lol i went to the bathroom when other was speaking well its not really important to hear what they are saying cuz most likely is going to be another bs

[stones88]

I would just like to say that I am also totally disturbed by the debate. There is no other candidate aside from Ron Paul that I can cast a vote for. I am, however, a conservative/Bible believing dispensational Christian.
The reason that I was disturbed (and also have a headache) was not only the answers given by the other candidates...but most of the questions that were asked. I think that it is a flawed notion for Christians to look to government to enforce morality upon America. What Ron Paul said regarding the founding fathers' understanding of free speech is absolutely true. I am all for liberty because I don't want someone pushing their beliefs and morality on me. Not to mention that the Apostle Paul clearly states that we do not have any business judging those outside the Church (and America and the Church are most definitely not synonomous). I desire to live "a quiet and peacable life in all godliness and reverence." I also know (as the founders of our Country did) that most of the greatest acts of evil ever perpetrated upon mankind have been by governments. SO, I am disturbed that so many Christians have bought the lie that somehow government can save them. Unfortunately they are being hoodwinked into giving up their liberties, and will soon find themselves slaves in the new government being given to us by the elitists...

amen.

[Paulitician]

They dropped dead listening to Alan Keyes' bullshit.
Probably. I put the TV to mute every time it was his turn to speak.

[hard@work]

I'm a values voter. And Dr. Paul won the debate to me because he "valued" inegrity and constitutional truth over a sermon-like answer, or cop-out statement that most of them responded with. Not all of us bible thumpers bought into most of that "stuff" being spread out in the debate tonight. I am more eager to donate and campaign now. Dr. Paul held his own and stuck to his guns tonight. Alan Keyes was a disappointment to me. Hope I don't offend anyone. And who is the Cox candidate? I will google him tomorrow.
-lisa

You sound like a real patriot to me.

:)

[jacmicwag]

Well, my take - Ron was fairly solid until the last half of his closing remarks. At that point, he started coming across a little angry and shrill to me. I've seen Ron in person numerous times in the past 3 months and he is much more effective when he tones it down a little (just my opinion) or adds some humor. He walks a delicate line with his message and truth does not always win the argument. I would like to see Ron deliver more of his message like he did the first 30 seconds of his closing statement, which was outstanding. No one on this planet can compete with him when he stays focused and on-target. He tried to cover about 15 different points on his close and lost his direction a bit - why not just hammer home 3 or 4 major points and then do a tease for some of his other great ideas that he doesn't have time to discuss. I know - it's easy to be an arm-chair quarterback but that's my take and I'm sticking to it.

Alan Keyes - what is up with that? Crazy man from the church of Pluto or strategic plant to try and trip our man up in future debates. No conspiracy stuff for me normally, but I do not trust the Republican Party as far as I can throw them. I saw what they did at the Texas Straw Poll. I am very wary of this man. He came to Houston for a talk and totally lost it afterwards blasting Ron Paul to some of my fellow RP meetup supporters. I hate to say this but he may be bait or the idea could be to paint him and Ron Paul in the same picture as raving lunatics.

[V-rod]

If Giulani was asked that NAU question he would literally walk out the building.

[Syren123]

The holy than thou lady says ron paul lost 10 votes. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT! Once you drink our kool aid you wont flip flop.

Exactly. We use 100% cane sugar - not high fructose corn syrup - and no artificial colors or flavors. Keeps your brain cells high functioning, intact, and rational.

Those fundies need to get off the Twinkies and tuna casseroles asap.

[Syren123]

She also said that the Huckabee victory is a answer to prayer, meaning that Huckabee is somehow God's choice for president.

I spoke to God just last night and He said that Huckabee is NOT his choice.

[LibertyEagle]

I would just like to say that I am also totally disturbed by the debate. There is no other candidate aside from Ron Paul that I can cast a vote for. I am, however, a conservative/Bible believing dispensational Christian.
The reason that I was disturbed (and also have a headache) was not only the answers given by the other candidates...but most of the questions that were asked. I think that it is a flawed notion for Christians to look to government to enforce morality upon America. What Ron Paul said regarding the founding fathers' understanding of free speech is absolutely true. I am all for liberty because I don't want someone pushing their beliefs and morality on me. Not to mention that the Apostle Paul clearly states that we do not have any business judging those outside the Church (and America and the Church are most definitely not synonomous). I desire to live "a quiet and peacable life in all godliness and reverence." I also know (as the founders of our Country did) that most of the greatest acts of evil ever perpetrated upon mankind have been by governments. SO, I am disturbed that so many Christians have bought the lie that somehow government can save them. Unfortunately they are being hoodwinked into giving up their liberties, and will soon find themselves slaves in the new government being given to us by the elitists...

What do you think is the best way to get through to them? Is there anything we can or should be doing?

[LibertyEagle]

If Giulani was asked that NAU question he would literally walk out the building.

I would've loved Phyllis Schlafly to get her hands on him. She would have hung him up to dry with his law firm's dealings with the Spanish company, Cintra, making all the deals for the NAFTA Superhighway.

[Bradley in DC]

I didn't hear Keyes ever attack Paul. I think he is more of a threat to Huckabee and Romney. He went after Romney hard.

Second.

[paulitics]

As much as I like Ron Paul and his views and stances, sometimes I think his demeanor during debates is less than optimal. I think he could have come across a little more relaxed. I'm not a fan of the yelling so much.

I agree. His demeanor in earlier debates was more effective.

[fiddler1]

I just recently suffered through the entire marathon like "Values Voter" presidential debates. The so called first tier candidates did not make an appearance. I am of course referring to the military-industrial-corporate anointed ones: Romney, McCain, Guilianni, and Fred Thompson. I have to admit that there was a real attempt by the sponsors and moderators to be fair about the allotted time for each candidate. This was refreshing after watching several other debates where the bias of the moderators in the questions asked and time allowed was blatantly obvious. What really surprised me about the religious right was their eagerness to impose their views on everyone else, at the point of a gun if necessary. At the same time they cry foul about anyone else's struggle to live their lives the way they want, if it does not agree with their philosophy or their particular interpretation of their faith. While they condemn Islam for sharia law, they see no problem with imposing their Christian version on everyone else. They seem to find no problem with fighting an illegal war against a country that did not attack us. This is hypocrisy, pure and simple. I am a Christian, but I do not think it necessary to visit a church building to connect with the creator. The problem is that Christianity has become a religion "about" Jesus, rather than the faith practiced by Jesus himself. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." "Blessed are the peacemakers" While being crucified: "Father forgive them.. They know not what they do" "If a man smite you on one cheek, turn the other" Instead now I hear. Peacemakers are un-American! Do unto them before they do unto us! The "Values Voters" booed Ron Paul for actually reminding them that Jesus is the "Prince of Peace" I'm not sure what values these people have actually. Let us now end with a rousing version of "Onward Christian Warmongers" or maybe "Jesus wants to cluster-bomb the children" That said, I do realize that not all Christians are like this. God save the poor Christians involved with the organized church. I fear they are in the devils playground and are becoming nothing more than the tools of the beast...

[jj111]

Huckabee will lose so those who watched might end up supporting Ron in the end.

[Bradley in DC]

http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/huckabee-triumphs-in-value-voters-straw-poll-2007-09-18.html

[joyfullyservingchrist]

What do you think is the best way to get through to them? Is there anything we can or should be doing?

I have tried on numerous occasions (and actually with frequent success) but it's hard because there is definitely a level of brainwashing (or something) that has occured. I'm also a military veteran who has been to both Iraq and Afghanistan. 2 years ago, if someone had said to me that what we were doing wasn't right...I would have written them off as some crazy liberal. (My apologies to all of the "crazy liberals" :) ) And if anyone had questioned president Bush...the conversation would have stopped there. I thought (as do most ignorant Christians) that since he claimed to be a believer...whatever he did must be okay. WRONG!

One thing I've noticed is how emotional manipulation is used in their argument (and my past argument). Rather than entertaining the issue rationally, you just call the other person "Un-patriotic" or "Un-American." (By the way if you haven't seen Ron Paul's speech "What is a Patriot" to Congress...you must. Just go to http://www.house.gov/paul/ )

I think the best argument, at least in my opinion, is to show them the facts about how our freedoms are being swept under the rug in the Patriot Act 1 and 2 (though 2 is a different name). And my question is always, "Why aren't any of the other candidates talking about these things? They all know about them. Ron Paul has addressed Congress regarding them. Why don't we hear about this stuff?" Then, when they don't know how to respond, I say something like, "I think it is safe to assume that either the other candidates DO NOT have the American People's best interest in mind...or, to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least don't know what is best for the American people."

I think Ron Paul is right on when he says the best that we can do is become educated about these things. The ability to explain how liberty works is really crucial...and not getting upset when we do it helps alot. Books that have really helped me have been the "Uncle Eric" series by Richard Maybury. Though written to teenagers...it is some of the best stuff I've read on it. Probably because he really breaks it down and makes it really easy to understand. "Whatver happened to Justice" in particular helped me to see that we don't need a ton of laws. Common law works great. Just "Do all you have agreed to do." And "Do not encroach on other persons or their property." These two laws are all we need to have a stable society.

I hope this helps. I don't know if I've said anything that you don't probably already know. From the Christian Perspective, I think that most believers don't really know what the Bible teaches us as far as our interaction and relationship with those who don't believe. And what our ideal government would be. Namely, one that minds its own business so that we can "live a quiet and peacable life in all godliness and reverence."

[inibo]

I would just like to say that I am also totally disturbed by the debate. There is no other candidate aside from Ron Paul that I can cast a vote for. I am, however, a conservative/Bible believing dispensational Christian.

I'm thinking that was maybe directed at my "John Hagee dispensationalist" comment. I'm a former dispensationalist myself. I understand the doctrine and am pretty much convinced that if one assumes verbal, plenary inspiration, dispensationalism has the most solid Biblical foundation. That's why I qualified my statement with "John Hagee." It's not so much the dispensational part I am faulting as the rabid, knee-jerk support for political Israel, i.e., Zionism, that Hagee exemplifies and the idea that somehow we are going to speed up the return of Christ by encouraging confrontation in the Middle East.

I have nothing but respect for committed Christians even though I am no longer one myself.

[Matt Collins]

My thread title was hijacked. :mad:

The original title of this thread was "Conclusions of the Values Voter Debate?"

[joyfullyservingchrist]

I did not take offense...though I did specifically write that I am dispensational because of what you wrote. Frankly, I'm not sure who John Hagee is (though the name sounds familiar). I am of the persuasion that though I look forward to the return of Christ, I do not want the things that are going to happen, to happen on my watch. The idea of doing things to speed things up is a little strange to me. What about "quiet and peacable lives" don't they understand. And that is in the context of praying for our political leaders. I just can't follow that train of thought.