Sales tax should be removed on books and libraries should be closed

[Howard_Roark]

Anyone who has been to a public library knows they are old, dilapidated quasi homeless shelters. Go to Borders and Barnes & Noble though, and its bright, all the books are new and in an inviting atmosphere, with nice leather chairs, good lighting, helpful staff and coffee shop to boot. If the government funds libraries because they want people to read, why not just remove the sales tax on books instead and close the libraries? It would lower the cost of books by up to 8.25% and would allow Borders and Barnes & Noble to be able to compete with Amazon, which believe me right now Borders is on the verge of collapse and BN isn't exactly on fire. When I go to libraries I notice that most people are there just to use the computers. What does that have to do with books? You don't go to Borders and see a bunch of computers. A decent used computer costs what $200? A part time minimum wage worker could buy that. The government should never do something private industry does better, so they should close libraries and stop taxing people buying books.

I had posted this on my blog libertarianentrepreneur.blogspot.com over a month ago. No had read it apparently so I posted it here lest my rant be wasted. Please comment what you think of the idea.

[BenIsForRon]

This should be Campaign for Liberty's number 1 priority until all libraries are demolished.

[Howard_Roark]

This should be Campaign for Liberty's number 1 priority until all libraries are demolished.

Wow we have ourselves a closet libral among us. Demolish? How about sell the books and lease to businesses that actually pay taxes instead of a government entity that consumes them.

[nayjevin]

Howard, you make good points I haven't thought of.

I think there is a place for libraries for profit or by charitable donation - and I think there's even a place for computers within that -- but I'm all for shutting down inefficient government operations.

I would like to be able to pay say 10 bucks a month and borrow one book at a time... that way my absurd collection can stop eating up my living space.

[He Who Pawns]

It's nonsense like this that makes libertarians look silly to the general public.

[nayjevin]

It's nonsense like this that makes libertarians look silly to the general public.

it's vague statements like this that make ron paul forum members appear as though they can't formulate a real argument :)

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Anyone who has been to a public library knows they are old, dilapidated quasi homeless shelters. Go to Borders and Barnes & Noble though, and its bright, all the books are new and in an inviting atmosphere, with nice leather chairs, good lighting, helpful staff and coffee shop to boot. If the government funds libraries because they want people to read, why not just remove the sales tax on books instead and close the libraries? It would lower the cost of books by up to 8.25% and would allow Borders and Barnes & Noble to be able to compete with Amazon, which believe me right now Borders is on the verge of collapse and BN isn't exactly on fire. When I go to libraries I notice that most people are there just to use the computers. What does that have to do with books? You don't go to Borders and see a bunch of computers. A decent used computer costs what $200? A part time minimum wage worker could buy that. The government should never do something private industry does better, so they should close libraries and stop taxing people buying books.

I had posted this on my blog libertarianentrepreneur.blogspot.com over a month ago. No had read it apparently so I posted it here lest my rant be wasted. Please comment what you think of the idea.

Privatize them. Sell them to private people.

[Original_Intent]

Aren't libraries usually run by the city or other local government? Should this even be in our top 100 things to be concerned about?

[FrankRep]

The cost of libraries is very low priority.

[Howard_Roark]

Aren't libraries usually run by the city or other local government? Should this even be in our top 100 things to be concerned about?

Yeah your right, libertarianism doesn't apply on local governments.

[Working Poor]

I don't think I personally want to see libraries closed I go to them all the time. I don't mind that some times homeless people can get in out of the weather in them.

If I spend any time in a different city I try to visit the closest library just to check my email and stuff.

[Original_Intent]

Yeah your right, libertarianism doesn't apply on local governments.

People have a lot more control over local governments, we should be pushing almost everything that the federal government does down to the state and local level. Sure having libraries privately run is better than being run even by city governments...just think that positing that this is a blip on the radar let alone something that is a huge priority is ridiculous.

[Howard_Roark]

The cost of libraries is very low priority.

Its bigger than just libraries. Its the idea of government taxing you buying books at Borders then using that money to support a library. Why not just not tax the books then books are cheaper and have no libraries then?

[A. Havnes]

In defense of libraries, and this isn't a political argument, is that they have books that are out of print, and they have killer sales once in a while!

[Howard_Roark]

I agree this isn't the top priority in the grand scheme of things. Never the less im a little disapointed. I sought out this forum to be among people friendly to libertarian ideas not to argue with liberal I love the government and all there services people which occurs on every other place on the internet that I post anything. Its also highly hypocritical to claim you want a small government then turn around and complain when you cant rent books for free. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

[FrankRep]

Its bigger than just libraries. Its the idea of government taxing you buying books at Borders then using that money to support a library. Why not just not tax the books then books are cheaper and have no libraries then?

I would agree with the idea of privatized libraries, but demolishing them? That's just silly.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

In defense of libraries, and this isn't a political argument, is that they have books that are out of print, and they have killer sales once in a while!

Yeah. 25c sales LOL

[FrankRep]

I agree this isn't the top priority in the grand scheme of things. Never the less im a little disapointed. I sought out this forum to be among people friendly to libertarian ideas not to argue with liberal I love the government and all there services people which occurs on every other place on the internet that I post anything. Its also highly hypocritical to claim you want a small government then turn around and complain when you cant rent books for free. You cant have your cake and eat it too.
There are too many battles to fight. We must choose the most important ones to fight first because our man power is limited.

[pcosmar]

I see nothing wrong with libraries at all, though I do believe they should be locally supported. I spent a lot of time in libraries in my youth,learning things not taught in school.
http://www.history-magazine.com/libraries.html


The oldest library in America began with a 400-book donation by a Massachusetts clergyman, John Harvard, to a new university that eventually honored him by adopting his name. Another clergyman, Thomas Bray from England, established the first free lending libraries in the American Colonies in the late 1600s. Subscription libraries - where member dues paid for book purchases and borrowing privileges were free - debuted in the 1700s. In 1731, Ben Franklin and others founded the first such library, the Library Company of Philadelphia. The initial collection of the Library of Congress was in ashes after the British burned it during the War of 1812. The library bought Thomas Jefferson's vast collection in 1815 and used that as a foundation to rebuild.

It wasn't until waves of immigration and the philosophy of free public education for children that public libraries spread in the US. The first public library in the country opened in Peterborough, New Hampshire, in 1833. Philanthropist Andrew Carnegie helped build more than 1,700 public libraries in the US between 1881 and 1919.


The first one in my city was a Carnegie Library, but since has been taken over by the city.

[torchbearer]

people could check out books like people check out movies from blockbuster.

[amy31416]

I absolutely agree that books should not be taxed, however, one of the few ways that I diverge from the Libertarian party is that I fully support and believe in public libraries. I volunteer, I donate and I support them.

Think about it--the amazing history of libraries that goes back to Alexandria, the fact that people who go to libraries are all about education, the fact that people who have nothing can go to a library and educate themselves in so many ways.

I spent a lot of time in libraries as a kid and I learned so much being there. I'd definitely prefer that they were supported locally, which is what I do, but a national library like the Library of Congress is essentially a warehouse of this country's intellect. I think that if it's legit that we support a defensive national military, that it's even more important that we support a national collection of our intellectual heritage.

I've done research at the Library of Congress and it is truly an amazing resource, just as the Smithsonian museums are. I believe it's just as legit as funding our military for defensive purposes.

[torchbearer]

I absolutely agree that books should not be taxed, however, one of the few ways that I diverge from the Libertarian party is that I fully support and believe in public libraries. I volunteer, I donate and I support them.

Think about it--the amazing history of libraries that goes back to Alexandria, the fact that people who go to libraries are all about education, the fact that people who have nothing can go to a library and educate themselves in so many ways.

I spent a lot of time in libraries as a kid and I learned so much being there. I'd definitely prefer that they were supported locally, which is what I do, but a national library like the Library of Congress is essentially a warehouse of this country's intellect. I think that if it's legit that we support a defensive national military, that it's even more important that we support a national collection of our intellectual heritage.

I've done research at the Library of Congress and it is truly an amazing resource, just as the Smithsonian museums are. I believe it's just as legit as funding our military for defensive purposes.

if enough people felt like you, there would be no need to take people's money by force to fund the libraries.
that is how a free market always provides... even when it comes to charity.

Enough people in your town want a freely available public library, you hold fundraisers and gather sponsors... and you provide books for the poor.
that is how all private non-profits work... and they do work.

[nayjevin]

I absolutely agree that books should not be taxed, however, one of the few ways that I diverge from the Libertarian party is that I fully support and believe in public libraries. I volunteer, I donate and I support them.

Think about it--the amazing history of libraries that goes back to Alexandria, the fact that people who go to libraries are all about education, the fact that people who have nothing can go to a library and educate themselves in so many ways.

I spent a lot of time in libraries as a kid and I learned so much being there. I'd definitely prefer that they were supported locally, which is what I do, but a national library like the Library of Congress is essentially a warehouse of this country's intellect. I think that if it's legit that we support a defensive national military, that it's even more important that we support a national collection of our intellectual heritage.

I've done research at the Library of Congress and it is truly an amazing resource, just as the Smithsonian museums are. I believe it's just as legit as funding our military for defensive purposes.

I don't believe defensive funding is legit (only individuals have rights), but forget about all that.

I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly - and that is all that really matters - for because of what you've written - I know we would be peaceful neighbors!

:)

[nayjevin]

people could check out books like people check out movies from blockbuster.

oh ya the big red box... that's a good idea.

i want pdf's streamed to my virtual reality goggles, personally

[torchbearer]

oh ya the big red box... that's a good idea.

i want pdf's streamed to my virtual reality goggles, personally

I'm talking about the principle not the mechanism.
As in, rent books for small fees.

[TastyWheat]

Although I don't feel libraries are a proper role of government I don't think it's appropriate to "wage war" on them anytime soon. There's really no Blockbuster equivalent of a library so I think it's prudent to show that those can be successful. Libraries rent out movies and they still don't compare to other rental places.

[torchbearer]

Although I don't feel libraries are a proper role of government I don't think it's appropriate to "wage war" on them anytime soon. There's really no Blockbuster equivalent of a library so I think it's prudent to show that those can be successful. Libraries rent out movies and they still don't compare to other rental places.

the rise of digital books may change that.

[angelatc]

Aren't libraries usually run by the city or other local government? Should this even be in our top 100 things to be concerned about?

Bingo. It isn't a federal matter.

I like my library. If I could choose to live in a community that had one and one that didn't, I would choose the former.

And starting out with the argument that they're dilapidated and outdated homeless shelters is ridiculous.
This is indeed why libertarians look goofy. Attacking the popular things that the government provides just to appear ideologically pure does nothing except isolate the mainstream voters.

[nayjevin]

I'm talking about the principle not the mechanism.

That's a widely applicable, wise statement right there.

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic btw

As technology improves, wealth becomes easier to accumulate with a smaller amount of effort - so long as gov't is out of the way.

As an example, much labor currently done by machines has replaced man's physical labor requirements. In other words, efficient technologies leave that same farmer, with that same yield, more time for creative pursuits.

Expand that to all society, and I believe people begin to write, sing, paint, etc for personal reflection - as opposed to 'for profit' pursuits. Renaissance revolution!

Libraries would thrive in such a scenario - or at least places that offer some semblance of a 'sum of human knowledge'.

Pay to play is another thing I think a free society would move toward -- pay for exactly what you use - not some arbitrary averaging of individuals to detrmine rates.

[angelatc]

I've done research at the Library of Congress and it is truly an amazing resource, just as the Smithsonian museums are. I believe it's just as legit as funding our military for defensive purposes.

I agree, but I think the constitution should be amended to provide for it.

[nayjevin]

Attacking the popular things that the government provides just to appear ideologically pure does nothing except isolate the mainstream voters.I doubt it was done to appear ideologically pure - more likely a reflection of actually having a sound ideology. I agree with you that it may not be a wise battle.

[specsaregood]

Its also highly hypocritical to claim you want a small government then turn around and complain when you cant rent books for free. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

You just said how our taxes pay for the libraries, so how exactly is one renting them for free?

[torchbearer]

how about, instead of calling it renting.. we say its a user tax.
you use it, you pay for it.

[Rael]

Anyone who has been to a public library knows they are old, dilapidated quasi homeless shelters.

Not my library. It's always been pretty nice, and they just did some more renovations to it.

They could be funded with user fees. To some extent they are. I just paid $20 in late fees =P. Also, people donate books and money to them.

[tremendoustie]

Anyone who has been to a public library knows they are old, dilapidated quasi homeless shelters. Go to Borders and Barnes & Noble though, and its bright, all the books are new and in an inviting atmosphere, with nice leather chairs, good lighting, helpful staff and coffee shop to boot. If the government funds libraries because they want people to read, why not just remove the sales tax on books instead and close the libraries? It would lower the cost of books by up to 8.25% and would allow Borders and Barnes & Noble to be able to compete with Amazon, which believe me right now Borders is on the verge of collapse and BN isn't exactly on fire. When I go to libraries I notice that most people are there just to use the computers. What does that have to do with books? You don't go to Borders and see a bunch of computers. A decent used computer costs what $200? A part time minimum wage worker could buy that. The government should never do something private industry does better, so they should close libraries and stop taxing people buying books.

I had posted this on my blog libertarianentrepreneur.blogspot.com over a month ago. No had read it apparently so I posted it here lest my rant be wasted. Please comment what you think of the idea.

Libraries are great, although they should not be funded by government. They could be funded quite well by private donations, or could be run as a business, with subscriptions.

Given all the other @$#@# the government does though, I can't say privatizing libraries is my #1 priority.

[Howard_Roark]

Austin, Texas (December 11, 2008) Today the Austin City Council selected a team to design the new Central Library located on the site of the Seaholm Substation plot at 704 W. Cesar Chavez Street. The chosen design team is Lake/Flato Architects and Shepley Bulfinch Richardson & Abbott. In November 2006 voters approved to construct a new $90 million 250,000 square foot new Central library to replace the current 1979 John Henry Faulk Central Library which has 110,000 square feet.


That is $90 million dollars for a single city library, being built when books are going digital and you can buy alot of used books online for $.99 plus shipping. This is not nothing or throw away money. This is peoples property taxes being higher, the government going into debt to fund it ect.

[pcosmar]

In November 2006 voters approved to construct a new $90 million 250,000 square foot new Central library
Not the Fed. Local voters made the choice. Deal with it or move.

[Howard_Roark]

Not the Fed. Local voters made the choice. Deal with it or move.

I don't understand. How is limited government restricted to the federal level? That is your opinion. 1/3 of all government spending is state/local.

[pcosmar]

I don't understand. How is limited government restricted to the federal level? That is your opinion. 1/3 of all government spending is state/local.

I am not opposed to government, I am not an anarchist. Local people can decide what they want in the local area. I am opposed to a central government overreaching it's bounds.
This was a local issue, Local voters made a choice to spend money on something for the local community. That is how it is supposed to work.
If the local government is not to your liking, you have 2 choices Change the local government or move (vote with your feet).

[Howard_Roark]

I am not opposed to government, I am not an anarchist. Local people can decide what they want in the local area. I am opposed to a central government overreaching it's bounds.
This was a local issue, Local voters made a choice to spend money on something for the local community. That is how it is supposed to work.
If the local government is not to your liking, you have 2 choices Change the local government or move (vote with your feet).

I am against anarchist. I am a minarchist Ayn Rand style. Government that only does policing, courts and defence. A $90 million library doesn't fall under that. That said I do understand people can move at the local level but not at the federal level which allows more freedom, in fact I did move from Austin so I get that. But therer is plenty of government bloat going on at the local level believe me.

[brandon]

I fully agree with the OP.

The truth is though, there really is no market for bookstores anymore. The internet has replaced them.

[Howard_Roark]

I fully agree with the OP.

The truth is though, there really is no market for bookstores anymore. The internet has replaced them.

Thats the entire point. BN and Borders are going BK because they cant compete with Amazon. You know why? They pay sales tax. Remove the sales tax and Amazon is less competitive due to shipping.

[idiom]

Libraries were great resources. To many extents they still are and are good use of public money, especailly when well run and supported by donation and other private source.

However, what happens to them in the future is an interesting question. The demise of the book has been touted for two or three decades now, but all we have achieved is the demise of reading.

[LATruth]

This should be Campaign for Liberty's number 1 priority until all libraries are demolished.

We have a LARGE and rather nice library here in N.O., well over 50,000 sqft, with anything you can imagine. So I don't agree that ALL libraries should be shut down. But with Scribd.com and the rest of the ebook services I see their relevancy coming to a slow halt. But who knows, with all the talk of internet regulation, what do you think the government will filter 1st after they manage to seize control of the precious interwebz?

Scenario: Online books become so prevalent that we do away with public funding for libraries, few years pass they all close. Interwebz get assaulted for content, all political dissent and books of value to the cause are removed from the web via evil google filters. Welcome to Fahrenheit 451... and we didn't have to burn a thing...

[Mesogen]

I've got no problem with public libraries locally funded, but $90 million for a library building is going overboard. This is some politician's hard on, his great achievement. I'm sure it's a very nice library though.

[literatim]

We have a LARGE and rather nice library here in N.O., well over 50,000 sqft, with anything you can imagine. So I don't agree that ALL libraries should be shut down. But with Scribd.com and the rest of the ebook services I see their relevancy coming to a slow halt. But who knows, with all the talk of internet regulation, what do you think the government will filter 1st after they manage to seize control of the precious interwebz?

Libraries all over the country are offering the service to download ebooks.

[CUnknown]

This is worse than nonsense, it is anti-intellectual fascist bullsh*t. It doesn't matter how "inefficient" libraries are, even though that concept as applied to libraries makes no sense. They are a repository of knowledge, open for any citizen at no cost. They are critical for democracy and for intellectual endeavors.

They are run at low cost and offer a invaluable service to their communities. Does the fact that they are not run for profit bother you in some way? What is your problem with them? And, by the way, removing sales tax on books and banning libraries are two separate issues. I'm not against removing sales tax on books. Are you against people educating themselves?

[Howard_Roark]

This is worse than nonsense, it is anti-intellectual fascist bullsh*t. It doesn't matter how "inefficient" libraries are, even though that concept as applied to libraries makes no sense. They are a repository of knowledge, open for any citizen at no cost. They are critical for democracy and for intellectual endeavors.

They are run at low cost and offer a invaluable service to their communities. Does the fact that they are not run for profit bother you in some way? What is your problem with them? And, by the way, removing sales tax on books and banning libraries are two separate issues. I'm not against removing sales tax on books. Are you against people educating themselves?

Barnes and Noble, Borders, Amazon, Half.com have done 10000 times more of a job of getting books to people than do libraries in the modern age. Government should not be in a business that private industry does better. I don't understand the "no cost" argument being thrown around. $90 million for the Ausitn library is not no cost. Also the concept of renting a used book, then returning it seems absurd to me. Used books sell for $.99 online plus like $3 shipping. If you want to go to a bookstore and read first, you can go to your local borders. I am amazed at how many liberal people Ron Paul has attracted. People who like his speaches but when you ask them to give up even 1 government service, they say NO!!! NO!!!

[Howard_Roark]

I want to make one final thing clear also, this isn't an attack on libraries at all. I think that libraries are a great thing. This is an attack on government run libraries. I should have made this more clear because I see alot of people are just defending libraries. If the government wasn't doing it, private charities would be and at no cost to the taxpayer.


"Carnegie libraries are libraries which were built with money donated by Scottish-American businessman and philanthropist Andrew Carnegie. More than 2,500 Carnegie libraries were built, including those belonging to public and university library systems. Carnegie earned the nickname Patron Saint of Libraries."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_library

[brandon]

This is worse than nonsense, it is anti-intellectual fascist bullsh*t.

lmao. easy with the ad hominems buddy. As a well read student of mathematics, engineering, and economics, it's really rather funny you would accuse me of being an "anti-intellectual."




It doesn't matter how "inefficient" libraries are, even though that concept as applied to libraries makes no sense. They are a repository of knowledge, open for any citizen at no cost.

At no cost? I see you haven't really learned a thing about economics in your time here. Read the book "economics in one lesson." Learn about the concept of "what is seen and what isn't seen."



They are critical for democracy and for intellectual endeavors.

No they actually aren't. I have learned tons of information about our world through the internet and my school's private library. I don't suspect I could go to a public library and pick up a book on 16 bit phase shift keying communication systems using direct sequence spread spectrum gold coding.

I have never heard about anyone in the field of engineering, chemistry, biology, mathematics, or any other "intellectual field" going to a public library to do research. It simply doesn't happen.

And democracy is the enemy of a free people. Why would you want democracy?




They are run at low cost and offer a invaluable service to their communities. Does the fact that they are not run for profit bother you in some way? What is your problem with them? And, by the way, removing sales tax on books and banning libraries are two separate issues. I'm not against removing sales tax on books.

I don't care if anyone makes a profit or not. I do care about politicians stealing my money and throwing it into a money pit where it does no good. And they are not run at a low cost. They are fairly expensive to maintain.

The city of philadelphia is actually having a major budget crises. The mayor proposed shutting down several libraries to make up for the budget deficit. He was met with fierce resistance from other economically illiterate persons. Ultimately, he could not shut down the libraries and as a result we have massive tax hikes coming very soon.


Are you against people educating themselves?
Did you take a class on the best way to construct emotionally charged completely fallacious arguments? Perhaps you would make a good politician.

[Kraig]

I agree with the OP 100% it would be nice to see what local bookstores would be like if they didn't have to pay unfair taxes. Many people also still do not understand the tyranny of democracy I see. :( What is it with people wanting a more libertarian federal government but when you apply this to the local government the same principles are somehow invalid?

[LATruth]

I will leave this thread by saying:

We should NEVER convert to an "eBook" system. Give me a hard bound book, wrapped nicely in leather over an LCD screen any day. And the ease to which government could implement content filtration is downright HORRIFYING.

Fahrenheit 451 anyone?

Especially when the "next evolution" of computing is supposedly "cloud computing". I'll give a brief explanation for those unfamiliar, an OS not installed on your hard drive, your "PC" (although that's a contradiction with cloud computing) would connect much like a workstation to a master remote server with PERMISSIONS on what you can and can not do. Imagine the lack of privacy, no data stored would be safe from the prying eyes of any government organization (or public for that matter).

But this will be sold to us as the next "great" thing, and "evolution" of computing. I'm not buying it. Make all the tin foil hat comments you wish, it's coming. I fear Windows 7 may be the last mainstream, independent OS you will ever own. After all, if content begins to be filtered I highly doubt the distribution of open source OS's will be available. Thoughts?