California May Reduce Carbon Emissions By Banning Black Cars

[RonPaulR3VOLUTION]

California May Reduce Carbon Emissions By Banning Black Cars

Legislation may by 2016 restrict the paint color options for California residents looking for a new car. Black and all dark hues are currently on the banned list. The California Air Resources Board says that the climate control systems of dark-colored cars need to work harder than their lighter siblings — especially after sitting in the sun for a few hours.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/25/california-to-reduce-carbon-emissions-by-banning-black-cars/

http://idle.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/26/1639250&from=rss

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/26/AR2009032603316.html

[Zolah]

Is this satirical? It sounds crazy enough to be true...but it has to be satirical...surely?

[Pauls' Revere]

Sadly, it's for real. At least a consideration I heard.
:(

[micahnelson]

So, looks like the mob is gonna have to pull up in a lime green caddy now.

[tremendoustie]

Sadly, it's for real. At least a consideration I heard.
:(

I give up bureaucrats, what toothpaste should I use? Shall I have the chicken or the beef for dinner? We peons really can't decide for ourselves. What shall I wear? Will the white shirt reflect more sunlight and be more environmentally friendly?

What a bunch of arrogant %$#holes.

[Ninja Homer]

A new song for the California liberty movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP2VyquMAaM

[Brian4Liberty]

Of course there is no science behind this nonsense.

What about the size of the windows? How about the color of the interior and dashboard? Even if the surface of a dark car gets hotter, it doesn't automatically mean the interior gets hotter. Heat rises. Ban black asphalt!

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Of course there is no science behind this nonsense.

What about the size of the windows? How about the color of the interior and dashboard? Even if the surface of a dark car gets hotter, it doesn't automatically mean the interior gets hotter. Heat rises. Ban black asphalt!

hahahaha

[peepnklown]

The California Air Resources Board is saying it’s not true but, you can download their presentation online: HERE! ( http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/cool-paints/final_cool_cars_workshop_presentation31209.pdf)

[Zuras]

Of course there is no science behind this nonsense.

What about the size of the windows? How about the color of the interior and dashboard? Even if the surface of a dark car gets hotter, it doesn't automatically mean the interior gets hotter. Heat rises. Ban black asphalt!

What do you mean there is no science behind it? Yes, there is. Black completely absorbs light in the visible spectrum. Light = energy, and enegry can not be created or destroyed, hence it radiates it away as heat. The only question is if they pass a no black car law, will they pass a "must have white cars? Heh.

[tremendoustie]

What do you mean there is no science behind it? Yes, there is. Black completely absorbs light in the visible spectrum. Light = energy, and enegry can not be created or destroyed, hence it radiates it away as heat. The only question is if they pass a no black car law, will they pass a "must have white cars? Heh.

How about we get rid of all the other laws, but we paint the top of each big bald bureaucrat head white. As an added benefit, it will help alien sociology students identify the useless members of our society.

[Brian4Liberty]

What do you mean there is no science behind it? Yes, there is. Black completely absorbs light in the visible spectrum. Light = energy, and enegry can not be created or destroyed, hence it radiates it away as heat. The only question is if they pass a no black car law, will they pass a "must have white cars? Heh.

Prove that a black car uses more gasoline than a white one.

Like I said, the upper surface of the black car may get hotter. Doesn't prove that the inside gets all that much hotter. It radiates up and away from the car. And there is a layer of insulation and air between the outer surface and the interior. The size of the windows is much more important, and also if the windows are tinted/reflective.

The whole story about colors being banned has been called a hoax. They really are considering mandatory window treatment though...

[Brian4Liberty]

The California Air Resources Board is saying it’s not true but, you can download their presentation online: HERE! ( http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/cool-paints/final_cool_cars_workshop_presentation31209.pdf)

They are denying it, but you have them there (http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/cool-paints/final_cool_cars_workshop_presentation31209.pdf)! They did present the car color regulation proposal.

This is an example of one of the biggest problems in our society. Everyone has a theory. And they are all given equal weight. People with no relevant education, experience or aptitude come up with hair-brained theories, and they get implemented. No proof required! A waste of money and effort, which usually ends up being counter productive.

Just for fun, the definitive video on the subject... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-mJbMm8854

[priest_of_syrinx]

The best way to prevent carbon emissions is to make sure your fires aren't oxygen-deprived.

If they have enough oxygen, they'll emit carbon dioxide instead.

:p

[MRoCkEd]

Why don't we just ban cars altogether? Jesus Christ.

[pcosmar]

It's California after all.
Pretty much explains it. :p

[youngbuck]

It's California after all.
Pretty much explains it. :p

Yep.

[Zuras]

Prove that a black car uses more gasoline than a white one.
...

If both cars are using standard air conditioning to maintain the same interior termperature, then I already proved that. Basic thermodynamics.

[LATruth]

But we use a safer coolant already, freon is a thing of the past on new cars...

[Freedom 4 all]

I was under the impression that a DWB or Driving While Black was already a crime in California.

[Brian4Liberty]

If both cars are using standard air conditioning to maintain the same interior termperature, then I already proved that. Basic thermodynamics.

You haven't proven that the color effects the internal temp of the car. And you haven't proven that if there is a slight temp difference, that it would measurably effect the amount of air conditioning required, let alone gas usage.

There is no proof that this lame-brain theory would have even a measurable effect on gas mileage, let alone enough of a benefit to outweigh the costs. And it's especially ridiculous to even discuss this "theory" while ignoring the many other more important factors.

And yes, I do understand thermodynamics. Physics hasn't changed since I received my degree...

[Zippyjuan]

Banning cars of all colors would help with greenhouse gasses the most.
Perhaps it is white cars which contribute more to heat polution. They are after all reflecting more light into the area around them- increasing the effect of solar rays. As for black cars, they might be able to get better gas mileage than white cars. How? The radiating waves of heat coming off the top of them may help them move through the air with less resistance.

[pcosmar]

I am personally going to eat more beans in an effort to increase methane production. :D

[decatren]

I am throwing away my Commando and Pumping Iron DVDs :eek:

[danberkeley]

are they gonna ban dark-skinned people too?

[Brian4Liberty]

are they gonna ban dark-skinned people too?

Pale-faces. Too much skin cancer and increased medical costs... :rolleyes:;)

[BlackTerrel]

What do you mean there is no science behind it? Yes, there is. Black completely absorbs light in the visible spectrum..

Racist!

[Truth Warrior]

Well that's pretty Un-PC and "carcist". < IMHO > :p The "mob" will be just thrilled. :rolleyes:

[vegaspilot03]

lol, this whole thing is nonsense, we are not in a energy crisis. there is electricity all around us, just grab a copper pole and stick it 10 ft into the air, leave it there for 1 hr and then go touch it... you might be a little... shocked? hahahahahaha

as far as "Global Warming", well then if the cars are electric, and there is plenty of electricity to go around, we don't have to worry about burning fuel that contaminates the air and then **maybe** the Earth will breath better, i know i certainly would not miss the smoky skies over large cities (or maybe if we stopped cutting trees down, haven't they got a better way to produce paper than to cut trees down? i know we can use cement for houses, and bricks, homes would even last longer! imagine that)

anyway, black cars, as ZippyJuan said, would actually help if we weren't slaves to the Oil Kings.

www.hutchisoneffect.ca

[Reason]

CARB is also responsible for eliminating the first electric cars in CA

[Zuras]

You haven't proven that the color effects the internal temp of the car. And you haven't proven that if there is a slight temp difference, that it would measurably effect the amount of air conditioning required, let alone gas usage.


Yes, I have. You have two cars that are the same with only one being painted black, and the the black car will take more enrgy to keep at the same temperature. Not sure what you mean by measurably, or, rather, not sure you know what you mean by measurably. Maybe you are thinking of significantly. and that's debatable. What would you consider a significant amount of cream in your coffee? How about cyanide in your coffee?



There is no proof that this lame-brain theory would have even a measurable effect on gas mileage, let alone enough of a benefit to outweigh the costs. And it's especially ridiculous to even discuss this "theory" while ignoring the many other more important factors.

What costs? And of course there are plenty of other, better ways to reduce gas consumption. However, commiefornia may not have found a way to sneak it past the judicial branch yet. Baby steps.



And yes, I do understand thermodynamics. Physics hasn't changed since I received my degree...

Doesn't sound like it. Black absorbs more energy and throws off more heat because of it. That heat will raise the temperature of anything nearby by radiation/convection/conduction.

[Ninja Homer]

You have two cars that are the same with only one being painted black, and the the black car will take more enrgy to keep at the same temperature.

Come to Minnesota and say that, and people will assume you're retarded. It gets cold here, and despite popular belief, California can get pretty cold in the winter as well, and then a black car would have the opposite effect. Maybe black cars should be banned in the summer, and white cars banned in the winter? :rolleyes:

[Truth Warrior]

Come to Minnesota and say that, and people will assume you're retarded. It gets cold here, and despite popular belief, California can get pretty cold in the winter as well, and then a black car would have the opposite effect. Maybe black cars should be banned in the summer, and white cars banned in the winter? :rolleyes: That could have a positive effect on rush hour bumper to bumper traffic gridlock too. :D I wonder how much gasoline is just WASTED on that crap daily. :p :rolleyes: It boggles the mind.<IMHO>

[Zuras]

Come to Minnesota and say that, and people will assume you're retarded. It gets cold here, and despite popular belief, California can get pretty cold in the winter as well, and then a black car would have the opposite effect. Maybe black cars should be banned in the summer, and white cars banned in the winter? :rolleyes:

I'm dieing of laughter here. You say you are from minnesota and that california "can get pretty cold in the winter" as well. Hah. My step dad lived in califonia almost his entire young adult life. In 30 some years he never saw it snow once. That's all neither here nor there anyway. I would hope minnesotans wouldn't be so "retarded" as to comment when they apparently don't understand the context of what is being discussed.

[acptulsa]

When the transverse engine first became common here, some company (Renault, iirc--it was about that long ago) had a fan that didn't operate through the ignition switch. This led to people wondering if the car was still running, and gave rise to some comment. Well, during that blizzard of comment the rather ignorant engineers of this carmaker learned something they hadn't thought of--cooling a car completely while you're in the store just means it has to warm back up when you leave--and the least efficient and dirtiest minutes of a gas or diesel engine's life are those minutes it takes to warm up to optimum temperature.

Argues strongly in favor of black hoods, doesn't it? But don't try it in Arizona...


CARB is also responsible for eliminating the first electric cars in CA

Get real. They banned these?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/1915_Detroit_Electric.jpg

Everyone wants the electric car issue to be as simple as that goofy piece of propaganda, Who Killed the Electric Car, tried to make it out to be. Please do some research and don't make me turn this post into a wall of text.

[pcosmar]

I'm dieing of laughter here. You say you are from minnesota and that california "can get pretty cold in the winter" as well. Hah. My step dad lived in califonia almost his entire young adult life. In 30 some years he never saw it snow once. That's all neither here nor there anyway. I would hope minnesotans wouldn't be so "retarded" as to comment when they apparently don't understand the context of what is being discussed.

Blather
Insult away, you only prove your ignorance.
http://media.www.dailyillini.com/media/storage/paper736/news/2008/01/25/News/California.Snow.Strands.Vehicles.Forces.Closures-3168447.shtml
http://www.onthesnow.com/california/profile.html?overview=1#
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-113004cold_lat,0,3392828.story?coll=la-home-local

The overnight temperature in Palmdale dipped to 19 degrees, breaking the record of 25 set in 1954, Bruce Rockwell, a meteorologist in Oxnard, said this morning.
Granted, not as cold as it gets here, but cold enough to affect vehicle operating temps.

[TheEvilDetector]

You haven't seen anything yet.

These 'carists', will be prosecuted under equal colour opportunity laws or something like that. Of course that will be a federal legislation costing trillions to implement by the then devalued currency.

[acptulsa]

I'm dieing of laughter here. You say you are from minnesota and that california "can get pretty cold in the winter" as well. Hah. My step dad lived in califonia almost his entire young adult life. In 30 some years he never saw it snow once. That's all neither here nor there anyway. I would hope minnesotans wouldn't be so "retarded" as to comment when they apparently don't understand the context of what is being discussed.

Zuras, California extends from the Oregon border to the Mexican border, and from the top of Mt. Shasta (which may not even be the highest point in the state) to sea level (let's see you deny that). In the Sierra Nevadas, it can not only get pretty cold in the winters it can bury you in snow drifts many times your height.

Damn.

[Zuras]

Blather
Insult away, you only prove your ignorance.
http://media.www.dailyillini.com/media/storage/paper736/news/2008/01/25/News/California.Snow.Strands.Vehicles.Forces.Closures-3168447.shtml
http://www.onthesnow.com/california/profile.html?overview=1#
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-113004cold_lat,0,3392828.story?coll=la-home-local

Granted, not as cold as it gets here, but cold enough to affect vehicle operating temps.

There is an important word there: overnight. You know, like where you stick your head when you aren't posting, there is no sunlight.


And gosh, so their lowest OVERNIGHT temperature in 50 years is about the average mid-day temp for the same time of year in minnesota. Gee, you really proved me wrong on that one.

[ItsTime]

Didnt mythbusters prove that air conditioners SAVE fuel over having your windows down? So it is clear that Cali must ban all cars that do not have AC and make it so that all car windows can not go down.

[FindLiberty]

Cool.

I wraped my black car in tin foil... now it matches my hat.

[Zuras]

Didnt mythbusters prove that air conditioners SAVE fuel over having your windows down? So it is clear that Cali must ban all cars that do not have AC and make it so that all car windows can not go down.

Well, that would highly depend on the aerodynamics of the car(s), the degree the windows had been rolled down, as well as highway driving or more urban settings. I can assure you it's not true in any kind of typical urban setting. Mythbusters has a habbit of chosing highly specific examples and generalizing from that. It's a good way to demonstrate something, but a horrible way to prove it.

[ItsTime]

Well, that would highly depend on the aerodynamics of the car(s), the degree the windows had been rolled down, as well as highway driving or more urban settings. I can assure you it's not true in any kind of typical urban setting. Mythbusters has a habbit of chosing highly specific examples and generalizing from that. It's a good way to demonstrate something, but a horrible way to prove it.

Then we must ban urban driving as well.

[Kraig]

This is akin to turning power off the top floors of big buildings in Atlas Shrugged.

[acptulsa]

Well, that would highly depend on the aerodynamics of the car(s), the degree the windows had been rolled down, as well as highway driving or more urban settings. I can assure you it's not true in any kind of typical urban setting. Mythbusters has a habbit of chosing highly specific examples and generalizing from that. It's a good way to demonstrate something, but a horrible way to prove it.

Kind of like making assumptions about California weather by looking only at Santa Barbara weather?

[ItsTime]

vw car 258 mpg for 600 bucks

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=186374

[pcosmar]

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper736/stills/b6p4v0q8.jpg

Originally Posted by Zuras
I'm dieing of laughter here.
My step dad lived in califonia almost his entire young adult life. In 30 some years he never saw it snow once.
"but my daddy said"
Sorry your daddy was wrong.


Zuras,

Damn.

My thoughts exactly. ;)

[Zuras]

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper736/stills/b6p4v0q8.jpg

"but my daddy said"
Sorry your daddy was wrong.



My thoughts exactly. ;)

Quick quiz: is the sun shining or not?

Answer below...
Don't cheat.
Think about it
Cheater.












Yes! The sun is shining. You need all the help you can get. Take your Thorazine if you got it wrong.

[Truth Warrior]

Cool.

I wraped my black car in tin foil... now it matches my hat. And now it will be done in half the time. ;) :)

[pcosmar]

Quick quiz: is the sun shining or not?

Answer below...
Don't cheat.
Think about it
Cheater.
Yes! The sun is shining. You need all the help you can get. Take your Thorazine if you got it wrong.

Clarification
That is snow in California.
You are full of shit. Give it up, Your attempts at seeming intelligent FAIL. :p

[Zuras]

Clarification
That is snow in California.
You are full of shit. Give it up, Your attempts at seeming intelligent FAIL. :p

Good for it. It's not where my step dad lived, and its not an area where 99.9% of Califnornians, live either. Why don't you take a picutre of a coral reef and tell us about all the underwater citizens of california?

[acptulsa]

Good for it. It's not where my step dad lived, and its not an area where 99.9% of Califnornians, live either. Why don't you take a picutre of a coral reef and tell us about all the underwater citizens of california?

Um, you made a grossly overgeneralized statement about California and got pwned for it, and now you're trying to get out from under your own ignorance by accusing someone of using overgeneralized statements about California?

This would be the pot calling the wedding dress black.

[Brian4Liberty]

Not sure what you mean by measurably, or, rather, not sure you know what you mean by measurably. Maybe you are thinking of significantly. and that's debatable.

If you wanted to prove your theory, you would need to experiment, and measure. After you measure, you can then decide whether it is significant.


What costs?

The cost of a bunch of numb-skull bureaucrats using massive amounts of time coming up with these ideas, discussing them, documenting them, writing them into law, explaining them, enforcing them, fighting battles in court, etc. All taxpayer dollars. Which is nothing compared to what automakers might have to spend implementing, negotiating, studying/experimenting, and fighting these hair-brain ideas in court.


Black absorbs more energy and throws off more heat because of it.

Yes, we all know that. But that is not their (and your?) theory. The proposal (based on a theory) is to save gas by banning black cars. That is not proven.


That heat will raise the temperature of anything nearby by radiation/convection/conduction.

Do you understand the concept of insulation? None of the black exterior of an auto is in direct contact with the interior. And most of it is absolutely not (hood, fenders, truck). A hot roof will radiate heat upward, away from the car.

The question of whether a black car uses more gasoline is far more complex than "black gets hotter".

[pcosmar]

Good for it. It's not where my step dad lived, and its not an area where 99.9% of Califnornians, live either. Why don't you take a picutre of a coral reef and tell us about all the underwater citizens of california?

The point is, Don't make stupid statements that are NOT based in fact.
Back to the OP,

California May Reduce Carbon Emissions By Banning Black Cars
This is the kind of stupidity that we have come to expect from California.
What a joke.

[Zuras]

The point is, Don't make stupid statements that are NOT based in fact.
Back to the OP,

This is the kind of stupidity that we have come to expect from California.
What a joke.

I didn't make any stupid statements, nor any not based in fact. All I did, like usual, is slap your little know-nothing ass around. Cry about it some more.

[acptulsa]

I didn't make any stupid statements, nor any not based in fact. All I did, like usual, is slap your little know-nothing ass around. Cry about it some more.

You slapped someone around by claiming that there's no such thing as California snow? You not only showed your ignorance and your unpleasant manner, but you showed you know nothing about the history of your nation. Try reading up on the Transcontinental Railroad--particularly the Central Pacific's efforts to crest the Sierras. Hell, try reading up on anything!

[pcosmar]

I didn't make any stupid statements, nor any not based in fact. All I did, like usual, is slap your little know-nothing ass around. Cry about it some more.

Yeah yah yah.
Your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance. Grow up kid.

[acptulsa]

Yeah yah yah.
Your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance. Grow up kid.

I don't know about that. His ignorance is not something to be underestimated. I'd have to say it's too close to call.

One thing is certain. Combined they are, well, utterly remarkable. And a good recipe for hoof-in-mouth disease.

[Zippyjuan]

California is a big state with many different climates. There are portions which have not seen snow for decades and portions which get lots of snow every year.
The original post is just a bs thing but people do seem to be having fun with it so carry on.

[Zuras]

If you wanted to prove your theory, you would need to experiment, and measure. After you measure, you can then decide whether it is significant.

Some basics of the modern scientific method:
1. You don't prove anything.(this is nit picky)
2. You determine statistical significance contraints(p val) BEFORE data is collected. Afterwards you calculate it, but what is or is not significant is determined before any samples are measured collected. (this is NOT nit picky)

Collecting your data and then determining what you will cosndier significant is grounds to get booted out of any respectable universty/company.



The cost of a bunch of numb-skull bureaucrats using massive amounts of time coming up with these ideas, discussing them, documenting them, writing them into law, explaining them, enforcing them, fighting battles in court, etc. All taxpayer dollars. Which is nothing compared to what automakers might have to spend implementing, negotiating, studying/experimenting, and fighting these hair-brain ideas in court.


You might be surprised. I remember doing a physics problem about a solar sail going to mars or sometthing, and the difference between the black and white sails performance was incredibly disparate.



Yes, we all know that. But that is not their (and your?) theory. The proposal (based on a theory) is to save gas by banning black cars. That is not proven.


As far as I can see, it doesn't need to be proven because it would follow law of physics. You have no evidence to the contrary, thuse the onus would be on you to disprove the idea a black car consumes more energy to keep cool than a white car. To me, it's like saying "prove you exist". I don't have to.



Do you understand the concept of insulation? None of the black exterior of an auto is in direct contact with the interior. And most of it is absolutely not (hood, fenders, truck). A hot roof will radiate heat upward, away from the car.


There is no such thing as a perfect insulator, neither electric nor thermal, and even if there was, they wouldn't even put it in a car because the car would be worth more than a nasa shuttle.



The question of whether a black car uses more gasoline is far more complex than "black gets hotter".

Not if you control for everything but paint job it isn't.

[jkr]

this also is aginst carbon fiber that's unpainted, which by the way is lighter and better on efficency...and is a CONSTANT gain- you don't always "need" A/C

[acptulsa]

As far as I can see, it doesn't need to be proven because it would follow law of physics. You have no evidence to the contrary, thuse the onus would be on you to disprove the idea a black car consumes more energy to keep cool than a white car. To me, it's like saying "prove you exist". I don't have to.

Well, that's nice, Mr. Perfect Libertarian. I don't have to prove it--a fine scientific method. Now, tell us how applying this 'one size fits all' law benefits the person who lives in the mountains north of Redding and never uses an air conditioner.

And let's hear about your automotive engineering degree and your denial that (outside of the Mojave, of course) a black hood doesn't help keep your car's engine closer to its most efficient operating temperature while you're at it.

[jkr]

yes, Zuras strikes once more...have we considered on cool day this would prevent heater use? it CAN get cold in cally (and temperature is relative).

[acptulsa]

yes, Zuras strikes once more...have we considered on cool day this would prevent heater use? it CAN get cold in cally (and temperature is relative).

True, but for internal combustion powered vehicles (as contrasted to electrics) it doesn't much matter. Once the car gets warmed up, heat is a waste byproduct, and it is that wasted byproduct heat which gets transfered to the interior.

[Zuras]

Well, that's nice, Mr. Perfect Libertarian. I don't have to prove it--a fine scientific method. Now, tell us how applying this 'one size fits all' law benefits the person who lives in the mountains north of Redding and never uses an air conditioner.

And let's hear about your automotive engineering degree and your denial that (outside of the Mojave, of course) a black hood doesn't help keep your car's engine closer to its most efficient operating temperature while you're at it.

Do you know what a radiator is? If so, why ask such a dumb ass question?

[acptulsa]

Do you know what a radiator is? If so, why ask such a dumb ass question?

Obviously I do if I know what a heater core is, and I didn't ask any questions in that post. Furthermore, if you had read the thread you'd realize I was talking about keeping the car closer to operating temperature while it is parked, not while it is running. The Mojave actually gets hot enough to strain the cooling system; anywhere else anything that keeps the car closer to operating temperature while parked and not running is a boon to efficiency by shortening the warm-up period.

If you were half the physics whiz you claim to be you'd understand that.

[Zuras]

Obviously I do if I know what a heater core is, and I didn't ask any questions in that post.

Yes you did. Contrary to what you were taught in grade school, implied questions in rhetorical prose do not require question marks nor who/what/why/etc.

It's your error to not finish a sentence in which you are requesting feedback you do not know actually exhists without adding a question mark at the end of it.

Tell me about the rabbits, George? Implied question. In formal writing these can be ended with periods or question marks. In rhetorical prose they are preferably ended with question marks to avoid confusion/intent (or periods, depending on that intent). In this case it's a question mark because you are begging the question regarding something you do not know even exists.

Now you've gotten, what? A physics lesson, a history lesson, a grammar lesson, and a logic lesson from me all in one day. And I haven't even charged you -- yet.



Furthermore, if you had read the thread you'd realize I was talking about keeping the car closer to operating temperature while it is parked, not while it is running. The Mojave actually gets hot enough to strain the cooling system; anywhere else anything that keeps the car closer to operating temperature while parked and not running is a boon to efficiency by shortening the warm-up period.

The warm up period-- in California? C'mon. What kind of suspension of disbelief do you want me to walk around with to do anything other than snicker at such a ridiculous statement.

[acptulsa]

Tell me about the rabbits, George? Implied question.

In a word--no. That would be a request.

The warm up period-- in California? C'mon. What kind of suspension of disbelief do you want me to walk around with to do anything other than snicker at such a ridiculous statement.

Whereas that was a question without a question mark. Do you really contend that shortening the warmup period has no positive benefits?

And here's another question for you--are you a masochist? Because you really do seem to have an endless capacity--and even a healthy (or unhealthy) appetite--for being pwned...

Well, I've had enough of straightening you out for one day. Be as obnoxious as you like. I don't wish to be your partner in hijack any more today. If you pull your head out and learn some manners, well, that would indeed be different...

[Zuras]

Whereas that was a question without a question mark. Do you really contend that shortening the warmup period has no positive benefits?

And here's another question for you--are you a masochist? Because you really do seem to have an endless capacity--and even a healthy (or unhealthy) appetite--for being pwned...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

Ya, we'll "call it a draw".

[Brian4Liberty]

As far as I can see, it doesn't need to be proven because it would follow law of physics. You have no evidence to the contrary, thuse the onus would be on you to disprove the idea a black car consumes more energy to keep cool than a white car.


Lol! It's your theory, you have to prove it before it is implemented. Unless it is junk science for the government...then we understand. :rolleyes:



There is no such thing as a perfect insulator, neither electric nor thermal, and even if there was, they wouldn't even put it in a car because the car would be worth more than a nasa shuttle.


Doesn't need to be perfect. A coat of rubberized paint, air space, a layer of board, and padded fabric make an ok insulator between the external skin of the car roof and the interior.

Funny you should mention the Space Shuttle. I actually worked on part of the thermal tiles project.

It's been fun, but pointless. Go buy a white car and save some gas. :rolleyes: Leave the rest of us alone.

[Zuras]

Lol! It's your theory, you have to prove it before it is implemented. Unless it is junk science for the government...then we understand. :rolleyes:


It's not a theory. It's a law. It's always true and does not need to be tested. It's actually two laws, first law of thermodynamics and Newton's law of cooling (should be called convection, but oh well).



Doesn't need to be perfect. A coat of rubberized paint, air space, a layer of board, and padded fabric make an ok insulator between the external skin of the car roof and the interior.

Ya, it does need to be perfect, which is impossible. Not only would it need to be the perfect insulator to mitigate the energy/heat from increased absoption, it would need to be fitted perfectly where the bodies are articulated, which is also impossible.




It's been fun, but pointless. Go buy a white car and save some gas. :rolleyes: Leave the rest of us alone.

I'll keep my cars as I like my women, red and fast.

[Kraig]

I'll keep my cars as I like my women, red and fast.

Wow, what a badass!

[acptulsa]

Wow, what a badass!

It's no badass who beats his woman until her skin is red.

[Kraig]

It's no badass who beats his woman until her skin is red.

I guess you missed my sarcasm.

[acptulsa]

I guess you missed my sarcasm.

Nope. Caught it and liked it! Did you like the way I used his method of misrepresenting what someone says in order to discredit him? I thought it was a fine job of fighting fire with fire.

[Zuras]

I guess you missed my sarcasm.

Jealous God gave you the short end of the wit?

Hah.

[Kraig]

Jealous God gave you the short end of the wit?

Hah.

No. Why are you trying to pick a fight? You aren't impressing anyone, you're making a fool of yourself.

[Zuras]

No. Why are you trying to pick a fight? You aren't impressing anyone, you're making a fool of yourself.

Funny, coming from a guy who enters the thread sarcastically trumpeting "Wow, what a badass! ".

Other than yourself, who do you think you are fooling?

[orafi]

Hey, if this works, we can fix global warming by banning white people! Then, black people can absorb the heat, cool down the earth, and at the same time, well remove 99 percent of all our politicians from office (Ron Paul is the one exception).

[Brian4Liberty]

Forget the myth about black paint and hot cars

By TERRY BOX/DMN

Twenty years ago, when I was young and dumb, I bought a black Volkswagen GTI. Want to know the most toxic element in that combustible mix? The color. For a while, before the rattles and oil leaks started, the GTI was a great, soulful little driver. But my most vivid memory of the car was having to take off my shirt in August so I could use it to open the door after leaving the car in direct sunlight for hours.

For 20 years, I have urged people in this shadeless, concrete-slathered sector of Texas to avoid black cars because they are generally hotter than the surface of the sun.

As it turns out, I was only partly right – a surprising discovery I made recently during a little experiment conducted by Craig Eppling, the regional head of public relations for General Motors Corp.

Here's the bottom line: If we've met at a party sometime over the years and I told you to stay away from black, pretend I was drunk.

Mr. Eppling, who has been active this summer in programs that combat the very serious problem of people leaving their kids and pets in sealed cars, proved me wrong in one hot afternoon.

He parked a red Buick Lucerne, a white Chevrolet Impala and a black Saab SUV on a concrete parking lot in Carrollton one afternoon in mid-July. All were late-model, low-mileage vehicles.

There were thermometers in each car, and readings were taken every five minutes between 2 p.m. and 4:30 p.m.

The temperature outside ranged from a toasty 93 to a torrid 102.

The red Lucerne was left to bake with its windows up. The white Impala started the test with its windows down a quarter of the way, and they were lowered all the way at 3:40 p.m. The black Saab had darkly tinted windows that were left up.

At 4:20 p.m., when the temperature hit 102 degrees outside, the black Saab with gangster glass rolled up tight registered an interior temperature of 125.8. The white Impala with the windows down had an interior temperature of 127.2 degrees, and the red Lucerne with untinted windows up all the way was sizzling at 139.5 degrees.

All those temperatures are dangerous to kids, pets and older adults. The Lucerne could be lethal.

None of this surprised Jan Null, an adjunct professor of meteorology at San Francisco State University, who has done research on heat and sealed vehicles.

"The exterior of a black car gets hotter than a white car, but it does not get transferred to the interior any more than in a white car," he said. "Try this experiment: Take your hand and put it on the headliner. It's not very hot. The energy that heats up the inside of a car comes through the windows."

That can be serious business in August in desert locales like Baghdad or Dallas.

"In the first 10 minutes, the temperature inside a car with the windows rolled up will rise 19 degrees," Mr. Null said. "In the next 10, it goes up another 10 degrees. After an hour, it's usually up 43 degrees."

Some areas of a vehicle get even hotter.

On a 95-degree day, for example, asphalt street surfaces will hit a temperature of 150 degrees. The top surface of a black dashboard typically reaches 175 degrees.

"Some slow-cook recipes use that temperature," he said.

Now that I'm older and slightly wiser, please let me amend two decades of advice. Buy a government-issue white vehicle and get the windows tinted dark. It might not look great, but it will be cool in a real-world way.


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/0901dnbusBCColor.2d3b24f.html

[Kraig]

Funny, coming from a guy who enters the thread sarcastically trumpeting "Wow, what a badass! ".

Other than yourself, who do you think you are fooling?

Actually I came to this thread well before then, if you notice.

[Brian4Liberty]

It's not a theory. It's a law. It's always true and does not need to be tested.

I guess the only remaining question is are you intentionally dense, or completely and blissfully unaware of the fact?

[Kraig]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/0901dnbusBCColor.2d3b24f.html

Nice post, pretty much what I expected anyways. This is an idiotic law brought to you by probably the most idiotic state government in this union.

[orafi]

I remember doing a science experiment that has some relevance to this in elementary school. What I was able to figure out as a dumb little kid, while our elected officials, who while adult, are too lame brained and hysterical to comprehend apparently, was that the exterior color of a wall of a container does not affect the interior temperature significantly of that container.

I used spray painted cardboard boxes (interior color vs exterior color samples) with a plastic window on a side each. I got a B+ on it :cool:

[nate895]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/0901dnbusBCColor.2d3b24f.html

Zuras went from pwned, to completely and utterly pwned.

[Zuras]

I guess the only remaining question is are you intentionally dense, or completely and blissfully unaware of the fact?

It is the most simple of elementary physics, 2+2. at least the theory. You can always induct from an established law if you use proper controls. Since you have not a shred of physics on your side, I suppose resolving to hurling insults is all you have left? We can do that. I'm many things. Dense isn't one of them, especially among company such as you.

[acptulsa]

Zuras went from pwned, to completely and utterly pwned.

Yeah. I feel bad. I detest slavery, but we own his ass lock, stock and barrel. We ought to be ashamed.

[Kraig]

It is the most simple of elementary physics, 2+2. at least the theory. You can always induct from an established law if you use proper controls. Since you have not a shred of physics on your side, I suppose resolving to hurling insults is all you have left? We can do that. I'm many things. Dense isn't one of them, especially among company such as you.

Testing real cars in real sunlight is real physics. Just a bit more than a shred. LOL The fact is, what you are saying is true, black absorbs more heat, what you are ignoring is that the amount of heat it absorbs is INSIGNIFICANT compared to the majority of heat that is absorbed through the windows. You lose.

[Zuras]

Zuras went from pwned, to completely and utterly pwned.

The red Lucerne was left to bake with its windows up. The white Impala started the test with its windows down a quarter of the way, and they were lowered all the way at 3:40 p.m. The black Saab had darkly tinted windows that were left up.


Underlined for the thinking impaired.

[nate895]

The red Lucerne was left to bake with its windows up. The white Impala started the test with its windows down a quarter of the way, and they were lowered all the way at 3:40 p.m. The black Saab had darkly tinted windows that were left up.


Underlined for the thinking impaired.

You understand, right, that the windows up makes it hotter.

If you totally opened the car, it would be the same temperature as the outside area surrounding it. If you shut it and just let the engine and sun bake it, it will heat up pretty fast. Heck, you can bake something in there if it was hot enough outside and you left it sitting there for long enough.

[Brian4Liberty]

At least this person has done research on the subject...


None of this surprised Jan Null, an adjunct professor of meteorology at San Francisco State University, who has done research on heat and sealed vehicles.

"The exterior of a black car gets hotter than a white car, but it does not get transferred to the interior any more than in a white car," he said. "Try this experiment: Take your hand and put it on the headliner. It's not very hot. The energy that heats up the inside of a car comes through the windows."

[Zuras]

You understand, right, that the windows up makes it hotter.

If you totally opened the car, it would be the same temperature as the outside area surrounding it. If you shut it and just let the engine and sun bake it, it will heat up pretty fast. Heck, you can bake something in there if it was hot enough outside and you left it sitting there for long enough.


If the windows are "gangster black"(pitch black windows), it will lower temperature as glass is one of the best insulators of heat on a car. At a minimum he should have left the windows down on all the cars, or get a black one without tinted black.

This wasn't a test/study or anything. This was a waste of time by a moron who probably didn't even do it, as anyone with half a brain would realize they were wasting their time with such a garbage in garbage out "test".

[Zuras]

At least this person has done research on the subject...

LOL. Ya, that's the problem. That's research to you.

Good God, you belong in a circus.

[dannno]

Has anybody told California http://rightvoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/thats_racist.gif

[Brian4Liberty]

LOL. Ya, that's the problem. That's research to you.

Are talking about Craig Eppling, the GM spokesman, or Jan Null, the Professor I was quoting?

I guess it's a pointless question, as you never address the current issue or answer any direct questions.

Did Mr. Eppling's demo for the reporter bother you? Was he deceptive? Was it misdirection? Misleading information? Leaving out of facts? Ignoring a few parameters? Sound familiar? If it annoys you, perhaps you should stop doing it.

[pcosmar]

Logic and facts seem to make little difference.

http://cekirdek.pardus.org.tr/%7Ecaglar/DontFeedTheTroll.jpg

[Zuras]

Logic and facts seem to make little difference.

http://cekirdek.pardus.org.tr/%7Ecaglar/DontFeedTheTroll.jpg

You've gotten better at the whole self-portrait thing. I take it your wrist is feeling better from the chronic masturbation.

[Brian4Liberty]

Another "test" result related to the theory that you can "Reduce Carbon Emissions By Banning Black Cars". Still not completely scientific, as you would want identical cars except for color, and the interior temperature measurements. You would also want to do a second test with windows down.

And after that test, you would need to test if there is still a temp difference after the doors are opened, and/or windows opened. Additionally, you would need to test the theory that people would leave the a/c on longer in the black car after all of the above tests.


How much hotter is a black car than a white car in the sun?

Everyone knows that feeling of getting into a car that has been sitting closed up in the sun, the closest many of us will come to the flames of hell. Nobody likes it, and everyone knows that the darker the paint color, the hotter it will be. So is it completely crazy to buy a black or dark colored car? Probably millions of people have made car color purchasing decisions based on the idea that dark paint will just be too hot. Some of those people liked the look of dark colors and would have bought one if it weren't for the heat factor.

When I was buying my Toyota Prius, I was caught in this quandary. The two colors that I liked were the light Silver color, and a darker green-grey color called Tideland. My only concern was that the Tideland being darker might just be too hot. I searched the web and asked lots of folks looking for some kind of scientific, quantitative number... just how much warmer will dark colors be? Nobody seemed to really know, and I couldn't find any test results for different paint colors on the web.

So I did the tests myself.

Executive Summary:

For those who just want to know the results of the test, I'll tell you. The glass temperature (which I assume to be a proxy for interior temperature) varied only 5 to 6 degrees between the black and white cars on average. So I conclude that the interior temperature only varied somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 to 6 degrees. The paint temperature, however, varied by about 55 degrees, which is ten times as much. So it is indeed true that black paint is much hotter than white paint, but the interior of the black car isn't that much warmer than the white car.
...
Theories

How do we explain the difference between the paint temperatures and the glass temperatures? On first glance it seems like if the outside of the car is much hotter, then the interior must be much hotter too. I think there are several effects at work here:

1. Convection. The hotter the paint is, the more the air tends to rise around it, carrying the heat away from the interior. Also, any wind will tend to move the paint heat away from the car interior.

2. Insulation. The paint is physically separated from the interior in the case of the hood and trunk. And in the case of the roof, the roof liner has insulation that keeps the heat away.

You can think of the oven in your kitchen. No matter how long you keep the oven on at 425 degrees, you don't have to worry about the kitchen itself getting up to 425 degrees; convection takes some of the air from the oven out the exhaust vent, and insulation in the oven keeps heat inside. The oven does raise the temperature of the kitchen, but nowhere near 425 degrees.

All this can explain why the paint doesn't affect the interior temperature as much, but then why does the interior temperature rise in the sun anyway? I believe that direct absorption of the sun is the main reason that the cabins get hot. The sun gets absorbed partially by the UV filter in the windows, and largely by the surfaces of the car interior. The sun that hits the dashboard or seats turns into heat, and because it's happening directly in the interior of the car, it's directly affecting the interior temperature. This explains why putting a silver sun deflector in the front windshield helps so much to keep the car cool; it keeps the sun from being absorbed in the interior of the car.

Comparison with public perception

Before doing these tests, I did a poll on the prius yahoo group, asking what people thought the difference in interior temperatures would be between a black and a white car.
...
So 5 people guessed too low, and 23 people guessed too high. This indicates to me that the public's perception is not in line with reality. People think black cars are more uncomfortably hot inside than they actually are.

This is interesting partially because because public perception makes market realities. Certain car colors are actually worth more than other car colors on the used car market; many pricing engines require you to enter the color in order to get a quote. If these price differentials are even partially based on false perceptions around sun warming, then you could save money buying a darker used car if you like that color.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/cartemp/index.htm

[nate895]

You've gotten better at the whole self-portrait thing. I take it your wrist is feeling better from the chronic masturbation.

That looks pretty insulting from a not very well established member to a well established one.

[Zuras]

That looks pretty insulting from a not very well established member to a well established one.

I don't care. Just like the founding forefathers of this country, we don't give a damn about established othodoxy or the landed gentry. If you do, don't ever call yourself a libertarian and don't post responses to me. I will treat you like a slug if you act like a slug. Simple as that.

[Dripping Rain]

I think insurance companies are a fraud but banning dark colored cars will help destroy insurance companies. wait maybe its a good thing afterall. no hell. maybe the insurance premiums will go up for everyone? yikes

[Carole]

California May Reduce Carbon Emissions By Banning Black Cars

Legislation may by 2016 restrict the paint color options for California residents looking for a new car. Black and all dark hues are currently on the banned list. The California Air Resources Board says that the climate control systems of dark-colored cars need to work harder than their lighter siblings — especially after sitting in the sun for a few hours.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/25/california-to-reduce-carbon-emissions-by-banning-black-cars/

http://idle.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/26/1639250&from=rss

Black and dark colors absorb more heat than light colors, as well. so might next we see black or dark colored roofing banned? Black everything for that matter? :mad:

Black clothing?

How about black helicopters? :D

[Carole]

I think insurance companies are a fraud but banning dark colored cars will help destroy insurance companies. wait maybe its a good thing afterall. no hell. maybe the insurance premiums will go up for everyone? yikes

Don't insurance companies quietly already charge more insurance for certain colored cars? Like Red and Black?

The colors that are considered "hot" for drivers command higher insurance premiums.

[LibForestPaul]

So, I guess 10% light transmission tint will now be legal in CALI. ;)

[danberkeley]

So, I guess 10% light transmission tint will now be legal in CALI. ;)

Maybe the San Francisco Giants will be prohibited from wearing black baseball caps. :D

[TruckinMike]

The Black cars absorb heat - the White reflect it. I would say that the black car owners are helping cool the other cars around them. Not to mention all the heat that the white cars are reflecting back up into the atmosphere creating global warming.:D

Hows that for logic???:p


Objects in the world have different colors depending on which parts of the visible spectrum they absorb, and which parts of the visible spectrum they reflect. Red objects reflect long wavelengths of light (and absorb shorter wavelengths), while blue objects reflect short wavelengths of light (and absorb longer wavelengths). Black objects absorb all visible wavelengths about equally, and white objects reflect all visible wavelengths about equally.

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/mentoring/project_ideas/HumBeh_img019.gif

[TheEvilDetector]

Experiment described in the link below.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/cartemp/index.htm

Excerpt from summary:
"So I conclude that the interior temperature only varied somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 to 6 degrees. The paint temperature, however, varied by about 55 degrees, which is ten times as much. So it is indeed true that black paint is much hotter than white paint, but the interior of the black car isn't that much warmer than the white car."

Excerpt from methodology:
"I bought an infrared thermometer, the DeltaTrak Thermotrace mini. It allows me to measure the temperature of any surface without contact to the surface. I just point the thermometer at the surface from about 6 inches away, and press the button. It reads the temperature out on the LCD screen.

I went to Toyota 101 in Redwood City, CA on 3/28/04. There were a dozen 2004 Camrys in the back lot, arranged in a nice 3x4 grid pattern and all facing the same direction. I made sure that they were all directly exposed to the sun, with no major shadows on any of them. The sun was relatively high in the clear sky. I took measurements between 1:10pm and 2:14pm. For each car I took seven measurements, standardizing on the locations so that it would be repeatable. To determine the temperature of the painted metal itself, I measured the Trunk top, Roof, and Hood. In order to indirectly measure the temperature inside the car, I took measurements of the Windshield, Left Front Window, Right Front Window, and the Back Window. I always measured the center of these areas, and held the sensor a fixed distance away and perpendicular to the surface. "

The link I provided has much more detail.

[akihabro]

OMFG. I know white cars don't seem as freaking hot inside as black. But black is such a cool color. I'd be shocked to see if something like this would come up in debate. So why is it that California imposes such strict emissions laws but the rest of the U.S doesn't? We don't have our own planet. This is eco-terrorism.

[Kraig]

OMFG. I know white cars don't seem as freaking hot inside as black. But black is such a cool color. I'd be shocked to see if something like this would come up in debate. So why is it that California imposes such strict emissions laws but the rest of the U.S doesn't? We don't have our own planet. This is eco-terrorism.

I think the real question is are people going to take the dictations of a bankrupt government seriously?

[acptulsa]

The really funny thing is, even if exterior color made a difference it would only matter when the car was not moving. Radiators in the breeze move untold calories of heat energy--why would the entire exterior of a vehicle not do the same? You'd be far, far better off banning leaving the engine idling while the car is parked--or better still, synchronize the traffic lights and do something about the traffic jams. No way paint color makes much difference to a car moving through the air.

Oh, and if you're lurking, Zuras--thank you so much for all the illogic and the insults--come again. :rolleyes:


I think the real question is are people going to take the dictations of a bankrupt government seriously?

And delivered by Da Tehminatah to boot. Yadda. No wonder people are moving out of that state in droves.

[LibForestPaul]

I do not understand what is so difficult to understand ...
black cars get hotter than silver cars
Black cars DO cost more to cool that silver cars
black cars DO produce more CO2 than silver cars.

All that bullshit at top, well the temp difference, yaddi yaddii.

Now, that this is finished...WTF cares!

Red Herring. The question is, Nanny-Police state, or no Nanny-police state...
SUV vs Cadillac vs Benz vs Corrollas ... guess which one has a lower carbon footprint.
Why aren't v8 Benz being proposed to be banned in Cali? or Hummers, or 5.8 v8 trucks... hmmmmmm

[Pepsi]

It about control over your life.

[Kraig]

I do not understand what is so difficult to understand ...
black cars get hotter than silver cars
Black cars DO cost more to cool that silver cars
black cars DO produce more CO2 than silver cars.

All that bullshit at top, well the temp difference, yaddi yaddii.

Now, that this is finished...WTF cares!

Red Herring. The question is, Nanny-Police state, or no Nanny-police state...
SUV vs Cadillac vs Benz vs Corrollas ... guess which one has a lower carbon footprint.
Why aren't v8 Benz being proposed to be banned in Cali? or Hummers, or 5.8 v8 trucks... hmmmmmm

Yeah I'm sure my '86 white nissan produces so much less CO2 than your black '09 honda civic. ;)

[HOLLYWOOD]

CARB is also responsible for eliminating the first electric cars in CA

CARB is also responsible for MTBE... you know the reformulated gasoline crap that reduced emissions 5-10%, but also reduced fuel mileage 5-15%. It also cost the user 5% more out of pocket.

Then the destruction was discovered, because the reformulated fuel ate through certain rubber materials, like in fuel lines.

Then the Very ToxXxic Alarm was sounded when the highly toxic formula was polluting lakes, reservoirs, streams, and of course, drink water tables.

MTBE has now been banded in the country... way to go California Air Resource Board!

[akihabro]

Yeah I'm sure my '86 white nissan produces so much less CO2 than your black '09 honda civic. ;)

Probably because it pushes out more hydrocarbons from leaking vacuum hoses and other emission malfunctions. Its just a joke relax.

[Kraig]

Its just a joke relax.

what was a joke? :D

[acptulsa]

CARB is also responsible for MTBE... you know the reformulated gasoline crap that reduced emissions 5-10%, but also reduced fuel mileage 5-15%. It also cost the user 5% more out of pocket.

Yup.

Reminds me to reiterate that 'emissions' covers quite a range. Less CO and NOx, sure. But when you're burning 5-15% more gas you're producing more CO2. So, Global Warming fanatics, I have news. From Day One, the war on CO and NOx has resulted in more carbon dioxide. Learn to pick your battles and learn to wait for the technology to be developed and proven if you don't want to cause the environment more harm than good!