Why no IRS?

[JAHOGS]

OK I have a soon to be relative that is in college that wants to be a IRS lawyer. I was talking to him about Ron Paul and he wanted to know a few things about what he wants to do. I mentioned abolish the IRS, as soon as I said that I lost him. He was just like, I want vote for him, blah blah, simply because he wants to work for the IRS. No hard facts giving back to me as why he is against it other than he wants to work for them after college.

What I am asking from you guys is I need some information to give to him on why we should not have the IRS. I told him a few things but I figured if I had a bunch of information to hand to him or tell him it would help a lot more then me just winging it when he got all deffensive. Please help me here everyone.

[nexalacer]

Well for one thing, they are totally corrupt and abuse people in order to get their taxes.

The bigger question is why do we need the income tax? The income tax is only used to pay the INTEREST on our debt to the federal reserve! Getting rid of the IRS is tied into getting rid of the Federal Reserve. The latter is more dangerous because it creates inflation that effects YOU and your friend every day by making the purchasing power of your dollar go down.

So tell your buddy, if he wants to be able to buy anything of any value in the next 50 years, it's in his best interest to get rid of the Federal Reserve.... and that will lead to a destruction of the IRS. Time to find a new focus for law school... I suggest constitutional law!

[apropos]

Americans are more heavily taxed in 2007 than they were in 1776, when they revolted from English rule.

Also, our government has grown by leaps and bounds since the inception of the IRS. Many pay 30% of their annual salaries to the government. If you are audited, you are placed in a 'guilty until proven innocent' scenario. As usual, Ron Paul can argue this point better than I can. There are several good youtube vids out there, I'm sure.

[Ridiculous]

Have him watch Aaron Russo's movie America: Freedom to Fascism


It is all about how the Fed and the IRS is unconstitutional. It is all backed up with facts and good quotes.

If you haven't seen it you should watch it yourself.


http://www.amazon.com/America-Freedom-to-Fascism/dp/B000JVSUSE/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5296340-7124158?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1190039906&sr=8-1

Ron Paul is interviewed in the film.
Russo just passed away a couple of weeks ago, Paul went to the funeral. They became friends after Russo interviewed him.

[JAHOGS]

Thanks, so it is more of just a ladder game. We get rid of the Fed because it is ruining the dollar value, which in return will become the destruction of the IRS, something along those lines?

[JAHOGS]

Have him watch Aaron Russo's movie America: Freedom to Fascism

It is all about how the Fed and the IRS is unconstitutional. It is all backed up with facts and good quotes.

If you haven't seen it you should watch it yourself.


http://www.amazon.com/America-Freedom-to-Fascism/dp/B000JVSUSE/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5296340-7124158?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1190039906&sr=8-1

Thanks I have seen it, but I'm just trying to first get his attention with some strong facts in person. Then get him to watch a movie about the IRS.

[Starks]

Let us also remember that the income tax is stacked on the high sales taxes most Americans have to deal with.

[10thAmendmentMan]

Another quick thing for him to consider:

If I'm a landlord, I can dictate to the tenant what he can do. I can charge him as much or as little as I like, I tell him not to keep pets, and I can kick him out. This is all because I own the property. Similarly, the government has tolls on highways. They own the highway, so they can do that. However, does the government own our income? By them taking our income and allowing us to keep the rest, they are, in effect, claiming ownership of the fruits of our labor. Philosophically, that's a large problem with the IRS.

[apropos]

The 'inflation tax' is what hurts middle ad lower-class workers most of all.


An inflation tax is a metaphor for the economic disadvantage suffered by holders of cash and cash equivalents in one denomination of currency due to the effects of inflation, which acts as a hidden tax that subtracts value from those assets.


Although not meant by the term "inflation tax", a related effect is the tax on interest and investment "income" when the tax is levied against the nominal interest rate or nominal gains. For instance, if someone buys a bond with 6% interest and inflation is 4%, their "real" interest is 2%. If, however, they are taxed 25% of the 6% interest "income", or 1.5%, this can be thought of as composed of a tax on real income (0.5%) and a tax on inflation (1.0%).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_tax

[Ridiculous]

Thanks I have seen it, but I'm just trying to first get his attention with some strong facts in person. Then get him to watch a movie about the IRS.

Watch it first yourself then. It will give you PLENTY of strong facts. Netflix has the movie if you don't want to buy it.

Plus why would he want to be a lawyer FOR the IRS? He can practice the exact same type of law and help people/corporations with their tax problems and potentially make a LOT more money. A lawyer with a CPA can make a shit ton of money in a law firm.

[Elwar]

I don't think any explanation of how bad the IRS is would help as far as trying to talk to someone who already has their mind set on making that their career and has spent a lot of time studying for that very thing.

If you had someone who has spent the last few years training to be an expert torturer, they've almost got all the techniques down and everything...they're just looking forward to graduating and going out there to torture bad guys. Then you try to explain to them that torture is bad...it would take a lot to sway them.

As for the IRS guy, just tell him that the IRS wouldn't be eliminated right away. He'd be able to get a few years of work and experience under his belt before he can use his accountant/lawyer skills on the private market once the IRS is abolished and he'll probably make a lot more money in that arena anyway.

I personally work for the "military industrial complex". I'll probably lose my job with a Ron Paul presidency. That's fine by me, the skills I've gained will translate well in the private sector, and I'll probably have a much more satisfying career.

[bdmarti]

I'm with 10thAmendmentMan.

An income tax on labor and wages is unconstitutional for several reasons.

Take for instance the extreme example of the congress deciding to tax personal income at 100%. If you agree that they have the power to tax labor and wages, then they could do that whenever they wanted.

Clearly, that would not be constitutional...as it would clearly violate the 13th Amendment: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."...and everyone would starve to death.

So, let's say they let you keep just enough money to eat and have shelter...is it legal yet?

What if you even have a few bucks left in your pocket to play video games, are you no longer an involuntary servant of the government?

Personally, I'm not voluntarily paying the personal income tax now or ever; I pay because I don't want to go to jail. Thus, it seems obvious to me, that I'm an involuntary servant. There is no reasonable alternative to having an income. You can't assume that people start with enough property to survive, nor is it reasonable for everyone to be hobos and live off the charity of others. The personal income tax on wages and labor is not reasonable or constitutional.

Then you can also go back and read "Wealth of Nations" and other wittings by Adam Smith and see that he felt that any tax on labor was a direct tax. All direct taxes must be apportioned by population, and our personal income tax is not. The 16th amendment doesn't change that fact, and the supreme court has repeatedly agreed to this point.

Then there is the absurd notion that your labor has NO VALUE and NO COST and thus all money or goods earned via your labor are PROFIT. This is insane. A corporation gets to pay all it's costs, every single bill it has, and then they get taxed only on the extra money they have, but an individual, excepting for some arbitrary deductions, must pay tax on effectively his gross pay. The idea that the government can either know what expenses you had in being able to labor, or that they can declare such expenses to be zero is just crazy talk.

[sickmint79]

Thanks, so it is more of just a ladder game. We get rid of the Fed because it is ruining the dollar value, which in return will become the destruction of the IRS, something along those lines?

ask him about the history of it and why we should have the IRS in the first place... in actuality we could still have it for corporate tax, or some equivalent at least. so there still is a need for taxes and the IRS; paul wants to get rid of federal income tax on individuals.

the fed is a different beast, the movie on video.google.com "money as debt" is pretty good. the dollar is losing its value and hurting poor people the most as it inflates. the fed is meddling in what should be free market set interest rates and such. this meddling leads to malinvestment and creates bubbles such as the .com bubble and the real estate bubble.

[jj111]

Jahogs - if you spend hours trying to convince one person who is resistant, you could instead by using those same hours to be out flyering a crowded area and exposing hundreds and hundreds of people to Ron Paul's name and ideas. That is what this campaign needs much more than you spending hours trying to convince one reluctant person.

You can learn about Ron Paul's positions on the IRS at

www.RonPaulLibrary.com

or Do a google of YouTube search of "Ron Paul IRS"

[Slugg]

Reasons the IRS / Income tax is bad

1) It makes it harder to progress through the economic classes. Trying to get from middle class to upper class is next to impossible because a person has to traverse some seriously funky tax codes.

2) The income tax prevents consumers from spending money in the economy. This puts a limit on the flow of wealth. The flow of wealth should travel downwards. But we find that it flows upwards; and the income tax is one reason why.

3)The income tax is, at best, marginal when you consider what it is actually spent on.

4) It allows the government to get larger.
5) It disregards our privacy.
6) It disregards our fifth amendment right.
7) It disregards our property rights.
8) It disregards our judicial system rights.
9) The IRS is a for profit organization with the authority of a government institution.

[AlexAmore]

He must have some sort of power trip fantasy. That's the only reason why someone would want to be an IRS lawyer imo. Did he have an abusive childhood emotionally and/or physically?

[Thurston Howell III]

It's no coincidence that we got income taxes right after we got the federal reserve. It's what enables the fed. It's also very important to maintain governement's ability to borrow. I think of it as government using my paycheck as calaterol for their loans. This creates the opportunity for unlimited and unaccountable spending by the politicians and boy do they take advantage of it.

[fletcher]

Why the hell would anyone want to work for the IRS? Anyone that wants to work for the IRS has serious problems and isn't worth the time.

[JMann]

You may want to spend your time on someone else. Not to say you won't convert the guy but if he has a burning desire to work for the American gestapo there probably isn't much you can do. I have a friend that is an accountant and makes her living on income tax season so there is no reason to even bring up Paul's name to her. No income tax, no job.

[sickmint79]

i would not be so quick to discount accountants like that. i have seen accountants on this board complain of people dismissing them. my parents are both accountants. neither support anyone yet. i am working on my dad regarding the war and my mom is confused on how we could run the government without the FIT, but she also doesn't know what the federal budget is spent on. i think my dad watches fox and friends like every night... yikes!

[Sematary]

OK I have a soon to be relative that is in college that wants to be a IRS lawyer. I was talking to him about Ron Paul and he wanted to know a few things about what he wants to do. I mentioned abolish the IRS, as soon as I said that I lost him. He was just like, I want vote for him, blah blah, simply because he wants to work for the IRS. No hard facts giving back to me as why he is against it other than he wants to work for them after college.

What I am asking from you guys is I need some information to give to him on why we should not have the IRS. I told him a few things but I figured if I had a bunch of information to hand to him or tell him it would help a lot more then me just winging it when he got all deffensive. Please help me here everyone.

You will see that alot. People are really interested, until they realize that what he wants to do might (or will ) eliminate some favorite government program of their own.

[Broadlighter]

I think you need to find out why your relative wants to work for the IRS. If he's going into law, perhaps you can have a discussion about the differences between Common Law and Political Law. Maybe that will give him something to think about. Ron Paul comes from the principles of Common Law where life and liberty rights come from the Creator. The IRS is a product of political law, which is subject to the whims of those who make it.

I think this is the most profound arena for exploring the causes of why our government is so out of control.

[JAHOGS]

Thanks everyone for the information on what I should do. I think what I will do is just slowly make hints or comments about how the Fed is bad, etc when we are all together and start talking politics. And just let it start to grow on him. That I think is the best that I can do as of now.

[maiki]

Why does he want to work specifically for the IRS? States have tax revenue offices as well. Or the US treasury had other things that bring in cash if he wants to work with government funds. Is there anything specific he wants to do there that can't be done similarly in another institution, public or private? I doubt any of there jobs are specially unique to the IRS.