I had to send Lew Rockwell an email tonight...

[bamacre]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but you know, this...
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/025884.html
... is exactly what I am talking about.

Honestly, can you look at this program from the point of view of someone who is confused about politics these days? Someone not sure who or what to support?

I hate to use an analogy I viewed on a TV sitcom, but it is very relevant. There's an episode of the Cosby show in which Bill was talking to one of his daughter's boyfriends, after just meeting him and finding out that they were engaged, in the same night.

It went something like this. Suppose you were coming over for dinner one night, and I cooked up the thickest juiciest steak you had ever seen, and next to it were mashed potatoes topped with gravy, and whatever else, a magnificent meal. Now the daughter's boyfriend is practically drooling over the thought of this meal. Then Bill said, now what if I took this salivating meal and served it to you on a garbage can lid? Obviously it was a turn off.

Our message is that incredible meal, but with shows like this above, we are serving it on a garbage can lid, and people are turning away. Hell I didn't get past the first part.

Honestly, I really think this is disgusting, and a huge disservice to people like Ron Paul, and yourself, and many others who have worked very hard and changed a lot of minds.

I'm sure you're familiar with the old phrase "pick your battles." It is a very wise saying, and we should definitely pick and choose the battles we can win. And with people like Alex Jones, surrounding ourselves with conspiracy theories, we'll continue to lose. There are just some battles we cannot win, and if we try to fight every battle, there's no way in hell we can win the war.

And it's not just the conspiracy theories, honestly this show is portrayed or directed, or whatever, like some late night infomercial selling penis enlargement tablets.

And the truth is, we have plenty of ammo, and plenty of battles that we can win, especially when it comes to foreign policy and economics. And what do we do? Bring in Alex Jones and talk about the New World Order? Global government conspiracy theories? People don't understand that, people don't care about that. People care that they don't have a job, people care that their stocks are down 50%, that their 401K plan is now a disaster, or that their kids are coming home from Iraq, but might be shipped off to Afghanistan.

It is no surprise that Fox News, of all people, allowed a time slot for this. Certainly they are keeping their friends close, and their enemies closer.

We have got to stick with our guns, stick with what works. And we have got to be more cautious with what we say, and with whom we surround ourselves. Let's remember what tactics our government and its goons use. Espionage, infiltration. I would bet every penny I own that our group, our organization, our Ron Paul fan club, or whatever, the Libertarian Party even, has already been infiltrated. Is Bob Barr one of them? Is Alex Jones one of them? Hey, what a better way to control the "tinfoil" crowd than to actually "be" their leader? Why not, they have puppet governments in other countries, why not here?

Back in the day, another great man who fought for freedom once said, "We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline."

Wise words.

I hope my criticism is taken constructively, it certainly is meant to be. Feel free to forward my email to whoever.

- Ben

[Kotin]

I agree.. it was not the setting for such things.


at least not in the brash way that alex jones presents them..


choose your battles... a very relevant phrase.

[trey4sports]

good post OP, well put.

[jmdrake]

To the OP, go stuff yourself. Seriously. AJ has done far more to advance the RP movement then you ever have. And Lew Rockwell has the total right to put whatever he wants up on his forum. Note Lew Rockwell's blog is not "RonPaul2008.com". Quit trying to control the FREEDOM movement! If you are unhappy put up your own stupid blog and plug Glen Beck, Michael Savage or whoever you support. Hell even Glen Back is talking about "conspiracy theories" these days. Lou Dobbs was talking about the "New World Order" all last year. We won't win JACK by being cowards on all fronts who are afraid to speak the truth at it is. Ron Paul talks about the New World Order also. Besides the term NEW WORLD ORDER is ALL over the mainstream media these days! Do you talk about these things to everybody? No. But people who tend to read Lew Rockwell's blog are NOT the general public. They are already aware of much of what AJ is talking about.

[Invalid]

I rather enjoy the chaos of it all myself.

Also, I don't believe Alex Jones's troofer stuff, but if we can attract people to his site, they definitely leave more scared of the police state and the war-fare\welfare state.

I can see how you wouldn't want that guy on your show though too.

[axiomata]

I agree with the OP.

/cosigns

[Kotin]

To the OP, go stuff yourself. Seriously. AJ has done far more to advance the RP movement then you ever have. And Lew Rockwell has the total right to put whatever he wants up on his forum. Note Lew Rockwell's blog is not "RonPaul2008.com". Quit trying to control the FREEDOM movement! If you are unhappy put up your own stupid blog and plug Glen Beck, Michael Savage or whoever you support.

????


no one said anything to insult Alex Jones..


and wtf is up with accusing him of trying to "control" the freedom movement..

he was simply stating his opinion..:rolleyes:

[MCockerill08]

To the OP, go stuff yourself. Seriously. AJ has done far more to advance the RP movement then you ever have. And Lew Rockwell has the total right to put whatever he wants up on his forum. Note Lew Rockwell's blog is not "RonPaul2008.com". Quit trying to control the FREEDOM movement! If you are unhappy put up your own stupid blog and plug Glen Beck, Michael Savage or whoever you support.

I don't really care whether Jones is on or not. Jones may have some beliefs we don't believe are credible, but I'd much rather welcome his following into our movement than people who support bombing countries that pose no threat to us. It is obvious that Ron Paul does not believe that there is evidence for a 9/11 conspiracy. Neither do I. There is no way a government as incompetent as ours could pull something like that off without leaking. (though, as Northwoods, The GUlf of Tonkin, the bombing of Pakistan, and the wars of aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan, show, they are certainly evil enough to kill innocent people en masse)

Jones is right about the NWO, at least in some capacity. Certainly, a lot of what he says is blown out of proportion, but it is very true that a lot of people are pushing very hard for globalization right now behind closed doors. He is a useful ally on some important issues, with a legitimate following. He is certainly, however, not the "leader," or the intellectual apparatus of our movement. (LRC is MUCH more intelligent than Infowars)

[rational thinker]

I hope my criticism is taken constructively, it certainly is meant to be.

To the OP, go stuff yourself.



:rolleyes:

[jmdrake]

????


no one said anything to insult Alex Jones..


:rolleyes: You must of missed this. And with people like Alex Jones, surrounding ourselves with conspiracy theories, we'll continue to lose. Or maybe you think FALSELY blaming someone else for your loss is not insulting.



and wtf is up with accusing him of trying to "control" the freedom movement..

he was simply stating his opinion


His "opinion" was what Lew Rockwell should/should not put up on his own blog. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the world "control". :rolleyes:

Here's the bottom line. If you don't like to talk about "conspiracy theories" then don't. But its a waste of time and insulting to the movement as a whole to try to tell other people how to run THEIR websites! Really, I'm sick of this crap! As a truther I've bent over backwards not to ruffle feathers. The whole "go along to get along" idea. But now morons like the OP want to try to control things even after the election is over! He acts like its a zero sum game. Or worse a negative sum game. People will "only" be "turned off" by telling the truth. What about the people who are TURNED ON? Parts of our message only make sense when framed from a broader perspective. We need to get rid of the fed? Why? Many people think the fed is GOOD for the economy. Don't talk about how it's "privately owned" and is driving down the economy. That's "conspiracy theory". We need to stop the NAU. Why? Many people think that "free trade is good". Don't talk about how there is a broader agenda to undermine our sovereignty. That's "conspiracy theory".

The bottom line is people are more open to hear this information than ever before. Why do you think Glen Beck is talking about it? Ok, maybe Beck's been "converted". :rolleyes: Or maybe he realizes that as the world around us turns crazy he things he used to call "crazy" now make perfect sense. Maybe he realizes if he doesn't talk about some of this "crazy" stuff he'll lose all credibility as it comes true before our very eyes.

Final point. It is important to get this information out now so that people have an idea of what's coming. When the dollar is finally imploded the rest of the way and the new global currency is rolled out people can say "Hey, I was warned about that." Otherwise they might just go along with it and say "Oh those crazy conspiracy theorists. They don't want the new global currency that will save the planet."

[jmdrake]

:rolleyes:

Fine. He can constructively stuff himself.

[bamacre]

Thanks for those who say you agree with me. I thought I was alone in my concerns, glad to see I am not.

We just have to remember who we are trying to bring over to our side. I mean, are we at risk of losing support from those who follow Alex Jones? Certainly not. Let's not try to sell ice to Alaskans.

We are trying to send a message to those who were upset with the Bush administration, those who are already disappointed with Obama. People who have lost faith with both parties, and are looking for something else. Something that makes sense.

[pcosmar]

Opinions

*

Everybody's got one.

[axiomata]

Opinions

*

Everybody's got one.
No, just steroid using pro athletes. ;)

[bamacre]

Let's remember, Howard Dean committed political suicide because he screamed on a stage.

I'm not saying we should be cowards, or that we should cover our mouths. But if we are going to win people over, then we have to make sure we present ourselves in a certain manner.

I'm not saying you have to like it, it's just reality, and we have to accept it.

[jmdrake]

I don't really care whether Jones is on or not. Jones may have some beliefs we don't believe are credible, but I'd much rather welcome his following into our movement than people who support bombing countries that pose no threat to us. It is obvious that Ron Paul does not believe that there is evidence for a 9/11 conspiracy. Neither do I. There is no way a government as incompetent as ours could pull something like that off without leaking. (though, as Northwoods, The GUlf of Tonkin, the bombing of Pakistan, and the wars of aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan, show, they are certainly evil enough to kill innocent people en masse)


One problem with that theory. There have been all kinds of leaks. People just don't believe them because "there is no way a government as incompetent as ours could pull something like that off without leaking." ;) The government gets away with stuff all of the time because the people let them. For example we have 100% incontroverted evidence that the FBI was behind the 1993 WTC bombing. The bomber released tapes that proved his handlers knew the bombing was about to go off and they wanted him to use real explosives. Where was the outrage? Where is the outrage today? Simply having "leaks" is not enough.



Jones is right about the NWO, at least in some capacity. Certainly, a lot of what he says is blown out of proportion, but it is very true that a lot of people are pushing very hard for globalization right now behind closed doors. He is a useful ally on some important issues, with a legitimate following. He is certainly, however, not the "leader," or the intellectual apparatus of our movement. (LRC is MUCH more intelligent than Infowars)

Gee. I don't see Lew Rockwell as "the leader" either. Did something happen to Ron Paul and nobody told me about it? :eek: Both Lew and Alex are leaders. Both have followings. Both reach different audiences. There are some things I REALLY dislike about Lew Rockwell. And LRC doesn't stay as current as Infowars.com.

Anyway this shouldn't be an issue. LRC might turn some people off. Infowars.com might turn some people off. Know your audience and direct them accordingly. I know for a fact there are people that would be TOTALLY turned off by LRC's stance on the 1964 civil rights act for instance that completely loved Endgame. They might be willing to watch "The Obama Deception" knowing that it was coming from Alex but would have likely rejected it coming from Lew. That's why we do NOT need a "homogenized" freedom movement. Those who don't like infowars.com and are mad that Lew posted a video with Alex Jones in it should start their own websites. Seriously.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[pcosmar]

I am well past trying to win people over. The "people"as a rule, are friggin stupid.
I am trying to wake them up at this point, I'm yellin' FIRE in a burning building.

[jmdrake]

Let's remember, Howard Dean committed political suicide because he screamed on a stage.

I'm not saying we should be cowards, or that we should cover our mouths. But if we are going to win people over, then we have to make sure we present ourselves in a certain manner.

I'm not saying you have to like it, it's just reality, and we have to accept it.

Howard Dean lost because the media decided to make a big deal out of nothing. The media decided to make a big deal out of nothing because the powers that be were mad that Dean was raising lots of money over the internet without their approval. The "scream" had nothing to do with it.

Also you need to realize that you risk alienating just as many people with your over cautious and hypercritical approach as Alex Jones may lose by talking about the NWO. Your approach isn't the only approach. If you don't want to talk about the NWO then don't. (Ron Paul does though.) If you don't want to talk about the conspiracy to create a North American Union then don't. (Ron Paul does though.) Really the only place where Ron Paul has different with AJ is on the extent of the 9/11 conspiracy. (Ron Paul agrees that it's at least a cover up.) The clip you linked to didn't mention 9/11. It only talked about the issues Ron covered. Take a clue from Ron Paul's rally. As speakers he had Jesse Ventura (who had recently publicly come out and called 9/11 a controlled demolition), Tucker Carlson (who still attacks 9/11 truth if I recall), Barry Goldwater Jr. (old school conservative), and Naomi Wolf (libertarian leaning liberal). The rally drew bigger crowds than the GOP convention.

Or look at Ron Paul's endorsement of the John Birch society. They are the "granddaddy" of all American conspiracy theorists. One book they sell is "Some dare call it conspiracy".

One more thing. During the campaign itself when we did "sign waving" we tried to come up with what to put on the signs. Of course "9/11 was an inside job" was out. But so was "End the IRS" (some drivers might think the income tax is a good thing), "Stop the North American Union" (some might see that as "conspiracy theory"), "End the war" (some potential voters might disagree), "End the federal reserve" (most might not know what you're talking about and if they knew they would think that was "conspiracy theory") etc. We ended up with "Who is Ron Paul". The theory was "People will Google Ron Paul's name, read his great writings and be convinced to vote for him." Obviously that strategy didn't work. But hey, let's blame Alex Jones. :rolleyes:

Regards,

John M. Drake

[yongrel]

No one making the show wants it to be a flop. If you let Fox and company know what kind of content you want, you'll get it.

Vote with your voice. I commend any effort to make Freedom Watch a success, and if that means being critical of its content, I encourage it.

[jmdrake]

We just have to remember who we are trying to bring over to our side. I mean, are we at risk of losing support from those who follow Alex Jones? Certainly not.


Actually during the campaign some 9/11 truthers were run off. But continue.



Let's not try to sell ice to Alaskans.


You're ignoring the fact that AJ's following is growing. You're also ignoring the fact that people are more open to alternative theories these days when the look around the world and go "WTF"? But continue.



We are trying to send a message to those who were upset with the Bush administration, those who are already disappointed with Obama. People who have lost faith with both parties, and are looking for something else. Something that makes sense.

The problem is this. Most Obama supporters are going to assume perhaps indefinitely that Obama HAS to do what he's doing because Bush screwed up so badly. The only way to get them to understand what's going on is to point out that someone beyond Obama / Bush is pulling the strings. I know what I'm talking about. I'm surrounded by Obama supporters. Your method simply won't work.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

No one making the show wants it to be a flop. If you let Fox and company know what kind of content you want, you'll get it.

Vote with your voice. I commend any effort to make Freedom Watch a success, and if that means being critical of its content, I encourage it.

:rolleyes: He didn't contact Fox over the show. He contacted Lew over his blog. Not that I would have agreed with his position either way. And I'm voting with my voice. The "let's all pretend everything is all hunky dory and hope people vote to get rid of the FBI, CIA, Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Reserve all on general principle" strategy simply didn't work. People need to know why we are concerned about the growth of the federal government. It's not all about taxes.

[TheConstitutionLives]

I'm yellin' FIRE in a burning building.

Which is why only a small fraction of the people who hear you are making it out alive. Good strategy.

[TheConstitutionLives]

I'm in agreement with the OP.

[pcosmar]

Which is why only a small fraction of the people who hear you are making it out alive. Good strategy.

What can you say about stupid people.:rolleyes:

[TheConstitutionLives]

[]

[steph3n]

People that remember my posts know I am not a big AJ fan I tihnk he does a lot of stuff that discredits a legit movement.

That being said I watched this trying to see what anyone would be upset about and see nothing.
He was pulling from global mainstream sources in referencing issues and talking about current events. He wasn't using a bullhorn and shouting people down or anything like that. Good stuff there this time.

[constituent]

Our message is that incredible meal, but with shows like this above, we are serving it on a garbage can lid, and people are turning away. Hell I didn't get past the first part.


Our? We?

I'm not even familiar w/ you as an internet phantom yet...


Lew Rockwell owes you something why again?

[brandon]

Alex Jones is an embarrassment.

[A. Havnes]

I guess I don't mind Alex Jones stuff up on Rockwell's blog, but you used the perfect analogy. To some people, getting this information from Alex Jones is going to make it seem like a conspiracy thing. However, it is relevant, and Alex Jones seems to be boosting his credibility lately. Well, not much, but I think he has more listeners/watchers than he did in the past. At least, that's what I feel.

[Truth Warrior]

Lew HAS and DOES pick his batles.<IMHO> ;) :)

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i304/Truth_Warrior/lewrock0305a.gif

[Feenix566]

I had to send Lew Rockwell an email tonight...

You don't have to send Lew Rockwell an email. He posts regularily here at RonPaulForums.com under the name "Truth Warrior".

[Truth Warrior]

You don't have to send Lew Rockwell an email. He posts regularily here at RonPaulForums.com under the name "Truth Warrior".

"Visit LewRockwell.com, an outstanding and crucially important Web site I visit every day." -- Ron Paul.
"THE REVOLUTION, A MANIFESTO" ( page # 158 ), http://www.lewrockwell.com/ (http://www.lewrockwell.com/) ;)

[ARealConservative]

To the OP, go stuff yourself. Seriously. AJ has done far more to advance the RP movement then you ever have. And Lew Rockwell has the total right to put whatever he wants up on his forum. Note Lew Rockwell's blog is not "RonPaul2008.com". Quit trying to control the FREEDOM movement! If you are unhappy put up your own stupid blog and plug Glen Beck, Michael Savage or whoever you support. Hell even Glen Back is talking about "conspiracy theories" these days. Lou Dobbs was talking about the "New World Order" all last year. We won't win JACK by being cowards on all fronts who are afraid to speak the truth at it is. Ron Paul talks about the New World Order also. Besides the term NEW WORLD ORDER is ALL over the mainstream media these days! Do you talk about these things to everybody? No. But people who tend to read Lew Rockwell's blog are NOT the general public. They are already aware of much of what AJ is talking about.

don't call this one Francis

[acptulsa]

I agree with the OP. I also agree with jmdrake.

Look, our best bet is to try to get people to see what a bunch of psychos they've entrusted with power. The thing is, if you try to shove the whole ball of wax down their throats at once, they'll gag on it. Simple fact. You can hope the train will stop before it hits your car, and the engineer can do his best to stop the train, but the train weighs four thousand tons and a series of brick walls built across the tracks wouldn't stop it before it hit your car. Simple fact.

Can we not start easy? How about this:

Time and again they have deliberately trashed the economy. They did it in 1929, and they did it in the seventies. We have a copy of the memo J.P. Morgan sent instructing his banks to call all call loans. This demonstrably caused the Panic of 1907. Now, why would they do this? Because if they know what's coming and when (and if they cause it, they're obviously in the know) they can sell their stocks for a fortune and use that money to buy two or three times as much stock later, that's why.

They have the motive, they have the opportunity, they've done it before and we see the evidence. Open your eyes or go into denial so they can screw you more easily.

Now, getting someone this far is pretty easy. And once they've gotten this far, the door is open and it is easier for them to eventually see the rest. Furthermore, this baby step in particular, at this particular moment in history, is enough to piss most people off. So, why push harder than this?

[Kraig]

It is obvious that Ron Paul does not believe that there is evidence for a 9/11 conspiracy.

I don't think you can say that, it's certainly not obvious. What Ron Paul has said in interviews is that he believes another investigation should be done and that if any criminal or negligant activity is found within the government should lead to prosecution of those individuals. He also said it is a moot issue to begin with becuause we won't be able to get the government to investigate itself.

Personally I think he leans towards it but didn't want to commit political suicide over it, but that is really beside the point. Some of you people need to learn to think for yourself and not look to a leader to give credibility to an issue, he is a man just like you and for the most part has access to the same information as you, make up your own damn mind.

[constituent]

We have a copy of the memo J.P. Morgan sent instructing his banks to call all call loans. This demonstrably caused the Panic of 1907.

I like, got link?

[Brassmouth]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/025894.html

[jmdrake]

I agree with the OP. I also agree with jmdrake.

Look, our best bet is to try to get people to see what a bunch of psychos they've entrusted with power. The thing is, if you try to shove the whole ball of wax down their throats at once, they'll gag on it. Simple fact. You can hope the train will stop before it hits your car, and the engineer can do his best to stop the train, but the train weighs four thousand tons and a series of brick walls built across the tracks wouldn't stop it before it hit your car. Simple fact.

Can we not start easy? How about this:

Time and again they have deliberately trashed the economy. They did it in 1929, and they did it in the seventies. We have a copy of the memo J.P. Morgan sent instructing his banks to call all call loans. This demonstrably caused the Panic of 1907. Now, why would they do this? Because if they know what's coming and when (and if they cause it, they're obviously in the know) they can sell their stocks for a fortune and use that money to buy two or three times as much stock later, that's why.

They have the motive, they have the opportunity, they've done it before and we see the evidence. Open your eyes or go into denial so they can screw you more easily.

Now, getting someone this far is pretty easy. And once they've gotten this far, the door is open and it is easier for them to eventually see the rest. Furthermore, this baby step in particular, at this particular moment in history, is enough to piss most people off. So, why push harder than this?

In my constitutional law class the teacher went over why people were mad at the 2nd bank of the United States. (The one Andrew Jackson eventually killed.) The reasons he gave?

1) It had arguably destabilized the economy
2) It was calling a lot of loans on states destabilizing their operations
3) It was foreign owned mostly by people in England

Oh yeah. And this professor fully supports the bank bailout. Several times in class he's said "the bailout shows how sometimes the government needs to act faster than the founding fathers intended." :rolleyes:

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

People that remember my posts know I am not a big AJ fan I tihnk he does a lot of stuff that discredits a legit movement.

That being said I watched this trying to see what anyone would be upset about and see nothing.
He was pulling from global mainstream sources in referencing issues and talking about current events. He wasn't using a bullhorn and shouting people down or anything like that. Good stuff there this time.

Ding ding ding! Exactly! We have to remember that most people haven't heard of Alex Jones and those who have heard of him have already made up their minds about him AND Ron Paul. Typically when I hear someone I don't know talk about an unfamiliar topic I Google what they are saying rather than the person himself. It's far more likely that watching this would cause someone to Google "Ron Paul New World Order" than they would "Alex Jones New World Order". Here are the first couple of links from each search. Both are helpful to our cause.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDXHbgpoI80

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8DpKKSmaa8

One final note. Some seem to be operating from the assumption that all Alex Jones supporters are "ours" by default (not necessarily true). But even if you assume that then it makes sense to help AJ's movement grows as big as possible. After all more supporters are more supporters. People who are just "unhappy with the government" can keep bouncing back and forth between the two parties. A lot of people unhappy with Bush "bumped" to Obama. Now that the democrats are in power a lot of republicans have all of a sudden rediscovered "limited government". (I've received two phone calls from Newt Gingrich's organization to this effect.) Real change comes for realizing that something is seriously wrong beyond who happens to be the current resident of 2300 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[humanic]

Here are a few quotes from "conspiracy theorist" Barry Goldwater's 1979 book, With No Apologies.

“Where I differ from [then Governor Nelson Rockefeller] is in the suggestion implicit throughout his [1962 lectures at Harvard University] that… the United States must submerge its national identity and surrender substantial matters of sovereignty to a new political order. The implications in Governor Rockefeller’s presentation have become concrete proposals advanced by David Rockefeller’s newest international cabal, the Trilateral Commission. Whereas the Council on Foreign Relations is distinctly national in membership, the Trilateral Commission is international… It is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. Zbigniew Brzezinski and David Rockefeller screened and selected every individual who was invited to participate in shaping and administering the proposed new world order.” (pg 293)

“What the Trilaterals truly intend is the creation of a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the national-states involved… As managers and creators of the system they will rule the future.” ” (pg. 299)