Capital punishment?

[socialize_me]

I am completely against the death penalty, but was wondering if anyone had some good arguments (or good articles) for opposing capital punishment to better refine my view on the matter.

[Wulfslæd]

I support capital punishment in theory, however I don't have confidence that our legal system can avoid wrongly convicting innocent people, so I don't support it in practice. I have thought about this and can't come up with any way of designing a legal system that will guarantee everyone convicted is actually guilty.

I haven't done any research on this, but I've read that executing people is much more expensive than keeping them confined for life.

[Austin]

I don't recall the exact figures, but life is prison costs around $700,000 while a death sentence costs around $1,200,000 or more.

My two big reasons are:


Cost
Innocents being executed, even one is too many


Philosophically, or morally, religiously, whatever you wanna call it... I don't think one person, or one group of persons (government) ever has the right to take the life of another person.

Also, for the fellow Christians.. Are there people that Jesus cannot save? Are humans capable of deciding who should and should not live?

[pcosmar]

I support capital punishment in theory, however I don't have confidence that our legal system can avoid wrongly convicting innocent people, so I don't support it in practice. I have thought about this and can't come up with any way of designing a legal system that will guarantee everyone convicted is actually guilty.

I haven't done any research on this, but I've read that executing people is much more expensive than keeping them confined for life.

My thoughts also.
The cost is just a result of our legal system though.
Until the corruption of our legal system can be addressed I oppose it.
I have been in prison, I have known some that the world would be well off without, but have also seen many that should have never been there.
No easy answer to this.

[RSLudlum]

Wow, what a fool I am for always thinking 'capital' punishment was taxes levied by Washington DC :p

As for the death penalty, It's an issue I've had problems with for a long time but at this moment lean toward the arguements against it.

[Schmitto2121]

Im totally against it..

Lets teach people not to kill people by killing people...Thats hypocrital.

[slothman]

I'm against it except for a few crimes; such as torture.

I also think that life isn't much better than death.
Whether innocent or not you have messed up a person's life with or without the DP.

[thasre]

I'm totally against the death penalty anyway from a religious standpoint, but even so I don't think I quite understand what purpose it would serve if I didn't have a religious objection.

From a punitive standpoint, I don't see how you can even quantify whether there's "more" punishment in being killed than in being detained for life.

I remain thoroughly unconvinced that it deters other murders from being committed, either by removing a known murderer, or by preventing new people from becoming murderers out of fear of retribution.

The legal hassle and cost of getting a death penalty sentence is far greater than life emprisonment.

It offers only the most shallow of comfort to the families of victims, and I think it's unhealthy that such families should seek consolation through vengeance in the first place.

And, what I think is most important from a practical standpoint, is that we know how ineffective the government is even at doing things like building roads and running schools. Do we really have any reason to believe that they exercise any more scrutiny in dealing with prison sentencing? We know that innocent people have been put to death for crimes they didn't commit, and that should never ever happen.

Finally, even more important than that, is that if you give the state the authority to take away life under certain circumstances, what's to stop them from thinking they can take life under different circumstances? We've already seen how politicians seize power any way they can get it, and I'm not convinced that a State that would condemn a murderer to death wouldn't condemn a drug user or a political dissident to death. Human life is not a commodity of the State. Human beings are not expendable.

[Kludge]

I would not want to be murdered, thus I do not murder, nor would I permit my representatives to, if I can help it. Murderers are still people. One of the very few ways to get me truly furious is to tell me you support capital punishment but oppose abortion.

We've already had a multi-page argument on capital punishment.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=158897

[Theocrat]

I am completely against the death penalty, but was wondering if anyone had some good arguments (or good articles) for opposing capital punishment to better refine my view on the matter.

Let's say you're married with two children. One day, two thugs with guns break into your home. They manage to tie you and your son to some chairs. They bring your wife and daughter to where you and your son are seated, and they begin to rape both of them before your eyes. You struggle to get free, but you're helpless, and all you can do is cry. After they're done with them, the two thugs take their guns and shoot both of them in their heads. One of the thugs goes over to your son and begins to punch him profusely for crying while his mom and sister were being raped before his eyes. The thug then takes out a knife and slits your son's throat. The other thug points his gun at you, laughing, and just as he is about to pull the trigger, the cops bust through your door and save the day.

What do you think the State should do to these two criminals? Put them in prison for the rest of their lives to be supported by law-abiding taxpayers? Where is the justice in that?

[danberkeley]

removed. lol

[Kludge]

Let's say you're married with two children. One day, two thugs with guns break into your home. They manage to tie you and your son to some chairs. They bring your wife and daughter to where you and your son are seated, and they begin to rape both of them before your eyes. You struggle to get free, but you're helpless, and all you can do is cry. After they're done with them, the two thugs take their guns and shoot both of them in their heads. One of the thugs goes over to your son and begins to punch him profusely for crying while his mom and sister were being raped before his eyes. The thug then takes out a knife and slits your son's throat. The other thug points his gun at you, laughing, and just as he is about to pull the trigger, the cops bust through your door and save the day.

And just then -- God appears out of the Heavens and descends, while rainbows appear, even over those rabid evil rapists who would like nothing more than to rape your family again and cut off their limbs -- and give them AIDS and Alzheimer's.

Choice:

http://stuarthughes.blogspot.com/gory-op-pic-2.jpg

vs.

http://1800sunstar.com/zzC1LUV/zgfx/inserts/artist-gwilAngelfalls.jpg



Are you good or evil, OP?

[Theocrat]

I understand you want to criticize my views, but you still have not dealt with my scenario and answered the questions I posed to socialize_me. Coming up with other situations which have nothing to do with the intent of my story is irrelevant to my post. So please, just stick to what I've talked about and keep your personal inquiries out of it.

[raiha]

So, Theocrat, you get to play God? You sound very sure of yourself. I am very frightened when confronted with Certainty. Sometimes feels like Totalitarianism veering towards Dominionism veering towards Christo-fascism.

OP Ron Paul is now against the Death Penalty because of so many wrong convictions.

[Kludge]

I understand you want to criticize my views, but you still have not dealt with my scenario and answered the questions I posed to socialize_me. Coming up with other situations which have nothing to do with the intent of my story is irrelevant to my post. So please, just stick to what I've talked about and keep your personal inquiries out of it.

It was an emotional plea based on shock instead of logic. If all life inherently has value, than you cannot murder a person, whether criminal, homosexual, unborn, or Communist.

Most persons are not even capable of deciding what to do with their own life, much less what to do with others. Most here don't even trust government to provide us with drinking water, but to judge who is fit and unfit (assuming anyone is) for execution is a sound idea?

Murdering a rapist does not take the rape back, it only creates another tragedy.

[Theocrat]

So, Theocrat, you get to play God? You sound very sure of yourself. I am very frightened when confronted with Certainty. Sometimes feel like Totalitarianism.

Ron Paul is now against the Death Penalty because of so many wrong convictions.

I simply want to know what the penalty should be in the scenario I posted. It has nothing to do with me trying to be God or ascribing to beliefs of certainty. And, yes, I know Congressman Paul is against the death penalty, but we're not talking about his views here.

[lucius]

//

[Theocrat]

It was an emotional plea based on shock instead of logic. If all life inherently has value, than you cannot murder a person, whether criminal, homosexual, unborn, or Communist.

Most persons are not even capable of deciding what to do with their own life, much less what to do with others. Most here don't even trust government to provide us with drinking water, but to judge who is fit and unfit (assuming anyone is) for execution is a sound idea?

Murdering a rapist does not take the rape back, it only creates another tragedy.

In other words, you're unable answer the questions because your own beliefs about justice will not allow you to give a moral and consistent response to the scenario I've presented. Would I be correct to assume that? If not, then please deal with my scenario by giving your basis for what should happen to the criminals, as I've asked.

Whether or not you think my scenario is based on emotional appeal is still irrelevant, Kludge. I don't think it's farfetched to believe a situation which I described can happen, especially in this sinful world we live in today. The logic of the scenario has its basis in the moral standard by which justice is defined for the penalty of the criminals involved. However, the point of my original post is to get a perspective of where capital punishment would apply in the minds of those who reject it as a suitable or moral civil penalty.

[Kludge]

In other words, you're unable answer the questions because your own beliefs about justice will not allow you to give a moral and consistent response to the scenario I've presented. Would I be correct to assume that? If not, then please deal with my scenario by giving your basis for what should happen to the criminals, as I've asked.

Whether or not you think my scenario is based on emotional appeal is still irrelevant, Kludge. I don't think it's farfetched to believe a situation which I described can happen, especially in this sinful world we live in today. The logic of the scenario has its basis in the moral standard by which justice is defined for the penalty of the criminals involved. However, the point of my original post is to get a perspective of where capital punishment would apply in the minds of those who reject it as a suitable or moral civil penalty.

Apparently it wasn't obvious. I would oppose the murder of my (family's) rapist even moreso than the opposition to their own and my own rape.

[Austin]

What do you think the State should do to these two criminals? Put them in prison for the rest of their lives to be supported by law-abiding taxpayers? Where is the justice in that?

They state should not kill those individuals. Life in prison would be more suitable, perhaps solitary confinement. That said, it brings us to a whole 'nother issue, which is the prison system as a whole... Regardless, I stand firm on my belief that I, nor my peers, nor a "just" judge, nor a jury have the wisdom and benevolence to sentence another man to death.

On the topic of tax-payer money, it is silly to bring that argument up when you are for capital punishment. The costs of sentencing someone to death are far greater than those associated with sentencing someone to life in prison.

Take Indiana for example


Total cost of Indiana's death penalty is 38% greater than the total cost of life without parole sentences

[boberino]

It only takes one innocent person to be executed to make every one of us a murderer.

[MRoCkEd]

Plus, it doesn't deter crime.

[Kludge]

It only takes one innocent person to be executed to make every one of us a murderer.

Unless it's in war, of course. :rolleyes: :p :(