URGENT: Don't be Rude!

[erowe1]

I want to call the following article to the attention of all Ron Paul supporters:
http://blogs.theledger.com/default.asp?item=676821

It notes that Fred Thompson supporters found the behavior of Ron Paul supporters at one of their events to be rude. I fully understand the emotions that Ron Paul supporters feel about the other candidates. I feel them too. But, to be quite frank, I can definitely see how Ron Paul's fans often behave in ways that would be off-putting to others. I recall reading a piece written by a journalist who was in attendance at the Texas straw poll who felt that it was entirely possible that the flood of non-voting Ron Paul supporters there may have had the unintended impact of turning some of the voting attendees off and actually decreasing the votes Paul received. I can't say I entirely doubt that assessment. In fact, I bet that over the past few months, although Ron Paul's supporters have multiplied their numbers significantly, they've also turned people off that they should have turned on.

Friends, please, do not treat this campaign as a battle against those who are currently intending to vote for other candidates. Our goal is not to overpower them with our enthusiasm, it is to win them over to our side. We need to get votes for Ron Paul in the Republican primary. And that means we need to get normal Republican voters to like us, or rather to like Ron Paul. We all know that to know Ron Paul is to love him. Let's not take away people's opportunity to do that by behaving in off-putting ways. Instead, be understanding of their positions. Be winsome in your interactions with them. Emphasize the things about Ron Paul they are liable to like before you try to convert them on the issues where they disagree with him.

I know what it's like to convert to Ron Paul's side from a more pro-Bush position. The first thing I ever heard about Paul was his "Bring them home" line. And I instantly ruled him out. It was only because of my complete dissatisfaction with the so-called top-tier candidates that I gave him a second look. And when I realized that he was a strong social conservative, and that he was the only person out there who really wants a smaller, more limited federal government, I realized that my difference with him on the war would have to get put on the back burner, because there was no other candidate that I could support 90% like I could Paul. In the months since then I've had the opportunity to rethink my own assumptions about foreign policy and to appreciate his coherent, and consistent non-interventionist approach, which has always been his position and is not something he uses for political expediency, like Bush's opponents on the left do.

I say that to point out that people like me can be converted. We need to work on doing that, which means that when we're in a public campaign situation, the us-against-them, impeach-Bush-now, mentality has to go.

Sincerely,
Eric Rowe

[Mr. White]

Agreed, but some here simply use the rp campagin to push their own agenda.

[Dan Klaus]

amen...an email was sent around in San Antonio asking for volunteers to attend the Thompson breakfast and place business cards on thier windshields while they were inside...another example I wouldn't care to follow...please stay kind and folks will gravitate our way in their own due course...

[chiefsmurph]

I couldn't agree more. We have to start trying to focus more attention on getting the vote from the average republican.

[Corydoras]

The obnoxious behavior of Howard Dean's nationwide supporters who descended on Iowa cost him a lot of votes there.

Let's do like Ron and learn from history.

[ronpaulhawaii]

Agreed, good post, e komo mai

m

[The Only Woj]

I don't think waving signs at other candidate campaign events helps. I'm sure it's offputting for the supporters of the other candidate that are there. We need to do more to spread Ron's ideas. Talk about the major problems with what the federal reserve is doing. Bring up the issue of the IRS, that it just pays off the interest on our debt, that the government shouldn't own our income.

[Spirit of '76]

I'll sign onto this one.

Remember, we want to convince these people to vote for Ron. We're not going to do that by insulting them.

[davidhperry]

Moderator, please make this post sticky. As many have said in this post and others, the Ron Paul supporters are beginning to get a reputation for being combative and rude - I have heard it from numerous people.

We have to figure out a way to carry the message forward without turning people off. When you encounter someone who doesn't agree with, please don't stoop to their level. If you have to resort to arguing, you've already lost.

[disinter]

Like the enemy's supporters aren't rude?

Send them a fucking box of tissue.

[Stealth4]

I second, please make this a sticky. This is something every serious Ron Paul supporter needs to consider.

We cant be seen as a fanatical group. We need to be seen as normal people who have recently become ethusiastic with politics because of Ron Paul.

We need to follow Ron's example (i.e. how he dealt with Hannity post debate).

Kill them with kindness. This is a ghandi approach not a riot approach.

[disinter]

They are pushy and as one lady at today's gathering said, "rude.''

Puleeze. What kind of second-hand bullshit is this. You can just as easily say that some old lady in a wheel chair was spit on by a Thompson supporter.

[disinter]

If you guys fall for this bullshit, then their strategy is working. They will have you all believing that ALL Ron Paul supporters are "rude" (via second-hand quotes) before it is all over.

This article didn't deserve the hits that this thread gave it.

[ButchHowdy]

I'm sorry but I find nothing about this posted at www.fredthompsonforum.com

Those Fredheads would be crying Bloody Murder' if this were true . . . donch'ya think??

[erowe1]

Disinter, it's not just that article, it's what we've all seen for ourselves. I don't know how you could disagree. Are you trying to get Paul in the White House or are you just looking for opportunities to get in political arguments.

Some Ron Paul supporters are so convinced that everyone is against him that they are practically already making excuses for when he loses. We need to be more optimistic than that, and we need to be in this to win it.

[Noog]

I think it's always good policy to be polite and respectful. It really isn't about what the other guys' supporters think, it's about what the average voter sees.

[TheRothbardian]

Like the enemy's supporters aren't rude?

Send them a fucking box of tissue.

Agreed, and alot of the times we can't just sit down with other people's supporters and explain to them the issues. Thus, I fully believe individuals show show up with signs and pamphlets and such at any event that would allow such activity, even if if its at events with other candidates, because there is little room for getting his name out there in other places. It is remarkable how often I hear "who is ron paul?" from Thompson, Guiliani and etc. supporters. As long as individuals are tasteful, obey property laws, and don't threaten anyone's livelyhood, I see no problem.

As far as their supporters viewing are members as "rude," I think we are all smart enough to see past this. They consider anything anti their candidate as rude if it comes within a couple of feet of their signage. I believe words like "rude" and "bad behavior" aren't very objective. What should be asked is, wher the ron paul supporters too obnoxious? Where they too close for comfort to the candidate? Did they break any laws? Etc.

Though I agree we should be careful, I think most of are smart enough to understand legal and ethical boundaries. I think Thompson and his crowd should shut up and read the first amendment.

[Ron Paul Fan]

Are you guys saying that we should take our marching orders from Fred Thompson supporters? I think that Ron Paul supporters should be enthusiastic and proud to be there. People like to see devotion and dedication to politics. Don't fall in to their trap! They're trying to deflate the campaign's spirit and we cannot let that happen! Keep promoting the ideas of freedom, prosperity and peace and people will follow!

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I don't see anything wrong with this. Keep it up.

[quickmike]

They are pushy and as one lady at today's gathering said, "rude.''

Are these the same people who plan on voting for a candidate that wants to continue its occupation of someone elses country and killing its citizens for Bush's bullshit? The same ones who water at the mouth at the idea of bombing someone elses country without being attacked first?



Hmmm.................ok.

I guess they have a monopoly on whats rude and whats not.

[davidhperry]

...it's not just that article, it's what we've all seen for ourselves. I don't know how you could disagree. Are you trying to get Paul in the White House or are you just looking for opportunities to get in political arguments.

Agreed. This article corroborates what I've seen from some RP supporters in the "real world" and even in threads on this board. Labeling others as fools, idiots, losers, etc. is not helping the campaign - it's definitely a negative and the effects are going to be a lot worse unless we nip this in the bud soon.

Unfortunately, it's hard to change our actions and words unless we change the way we think as well. We must not think ill of people who are supporting other candidates. Instead, we should try to figure out what motivates them to support their candidate and then we can try to convince them to consider Ron. Also, please don't try to convert everyone in one conversation - sometimes it takes some encouragement from several people for someone to change their mind. Just focus on planting seeds - if people are interested, then they'll research Ron further and will probably end up supporting him.

[smtwngrl]

Disinter, it's not just that article, it's what we've all seen for ourselves.

I've seen it, too. We can be enthusiastic about Ron Paul and still be considerate. I will sign on to this.


I think it's always good policy to be polite and respectful. It really isn't about what the other guys' supporters think, it's about what the average voter sees.

Yes. And the "other guy's supporters" are all potential Ron Paul supporters. :D

[Stealth4]

Few more thoughts - its something ive been thinking about a lot lately.

Not because Ive seen rude ron paul supporters, but because of changes in my own life recently.

I think a big reason people like RP is because they "discover" him. I did on the net and spent about a month learning about him before I joined meetup, donated, posted on this forum etc. For some people it just takes time - but once they decide they are invaluable.

Im surprised at how committed to this effort I have become. People who know me are surprised. I have to be careful how much I talk about RP around my friends, family because I dont want to overwhelm them. If I did, they'd just think Ive gone nutty.

I think its all good for us to take a step back and objectively analyze things. We are all in this 100% but we need to consider how people who have never heard of RP will react to us.

If I was now, the same pre-RP person that I was just 2 months ago, and a colleague kept going on about RP, Id get ticked off. And I may not be a committed RP supporter.

At this point we just need to get out name recognition and then let people "discover" RP for themselves. Sure if people ask questions we should be ready to answer, but I think we just need to get the name "Ron Paul" in peoples heads at the moment. Ron Paul himeself will do the rest.

People worry because we just have a few months. I dont think we need to worry about time too much, we have 4-5 months till the primary. Thats good time.

Thanks for reading my rambling.

[Geronimo]

It's this kind of activity that made me decide to change my signature.

[rpfreedom08]

absolutely, Ron Paul always talks about trying to change things by setting a good example. Lets live what he talks about.

[quickmike]

Agreed. This article corroborates what I've seen from some RP supporters in the "real world" and even in threads on this board. Labeling others as fools, idiots, losers, etc. is not helping the campaign - it's definitely a negative and the effects are going to be a lot worse unless we nip this in the bud soon.

Unfortunately, it's hard to change our actions and words unless we change the way we think as well. We must not think ill of people who are supporting other candidates. Instead, we should try to figure out what motivates them to support their candidate and then we can try to convince them to consider Ron. Also, please don't try to convert everyone in one conversation - sometimes it takes some encouragement from several people for someone to change their mind. Just focus on planting seeds - if people are interested, then they'll research Ron further and will probably end up supporting him.

I agree with part of this. Calling people losers, fools and idiots isnt going to change any minds. Thats a big no no.

To show your enthusiasm and support with signs and handing out literature on RP at another candidates rally is quite another thing, as long as its done with some taste.

Lets not push this "rude" thing too far though and stop showing enthusiasm in front of people who support someone else out of fear of looking rude. Most sensible people will see massive grassroots support for someone and question why they have so much enthusiasm, and maybe check RP out for themselves.

Leave the nasty comments out though, I agree.

[mavtek]

I left a nasty rude comment.

[expatriot]

I second the motion for'Sticky'

There is a thread of logic in the idea that our attendance at opposition rallies
is useful both in terms of exposure as well as intimidation by success.
That said, however, reminding people to be aware of what they are doing is
correct as some of this turns into BlowBack.

There is an art to this kind of war and those who can should be looking at
how to be seen and noticed in ways that strengthen the message
while also notifying adversaries that they are on the losing side of reason
in a manner that is visually aggressive but circumstantially polite.

Echoing their gatherings at some distance could be en effective tactic,
however, particularly if you can mime their activities
in a conspicuously jarring manner while being polite.

Anyone who wants ideas on how to do this is welcome to PM,
being there does not need to become being rude.

[disinter]

Disinter, it's not just that article, it's what we've all seen for ourselves.

Bullshit. I have been to several Ron Paul events and didn't witness any rudeness. In fact, the only rudeness I witnessed was at the Fort Worth straw poll by GOP officials.

[LibertyEagle]

It doesn't say we shouldn't be excited about our candidate. Just that we should be careful not to shove things down people's throats. It's easy to do. I have been guilty of it at times, on one message board that comes to mind. (Townhall) ;)

I might not believe the story in the article, but I know a couple of people (friends of my parents) who have had bad experiences with Ron Paul supporters. They called me all upset. These are nice people, but they just weren't ready for the headlock put on them by some rather intense Ron Paul supporters. In fact, they were scared by them.

I doubt many of us do this, but it doesn't hurt to keep in mind that for many middle-aged or older people who have been asleep for years, and are just looking for a good conservative to vote for, which Dr. Paul is in spades, us coming on like doomsday is happening tomorrow, is going to more than likely run them off.

Please don't get me wrong. I am one who believes we are in big, big trouble in this country. But, for people who have been asleep, there is only so much their minds can handle at one time. All we care about is that they vote for Dr. Paul at this point. The rest can come later.

[Stealth4]

I humbly suggest that we draft a short letter summarizing our thoughts in this thread and then get it out to the meetup groups.

It need not be patronizing or authoritative. I think we can write a good letter on this and I think its important.

yea/nea?

I can write one tommorow night and post it up for comment if you like.

[axiomata]

I've talked to a number of libertarian-leaning Republicans who currently will not support Ron Paul because of the actions of some of his more unprofessional supporters and the fact the campaign doesn't distance itself from that type of immaturity at this moment. I've tried to explain that you are voting for a candidate, not his supporters but they insist that a civilized image is just as important and I have to respect that viewpoint.

[McDermit]

Herding cats.

I don't see any problem with flyering cars outside of events. That isn't rude, it's practical. Rude would be booing FDT, making noise and distrupting his events, or being argumentative or rude to his supporters.

[Corydoras]

the campaign doesn't distance itself from that type of immaturity at this moment

I do wish it would.

[LibertyEagle]

I've talked to a number of libertarian-leaning Republicans who currently will not support Ron Paul because of the actions of some of his more unprofessional supporters and the fact the campaign doesn't distance itself from that type of immaturity at this moment. I've tried to explain that you are voting for a candidate, not his supporters but they insist that a civilized image is just as important and I have to respect that viewpoint.

I'm not sure I would respect that, because their rationale is ridiculous. I mean, our Congress has been projecting a very "civilized image" as they tried to cram amnesty down our throats just awhile back. They were also very "civilized" when they voted to give Social Security to illegal aliens.

This campaign has attracted a lot of young people. If it were me, I would point out to them that while many of these people are young and not as versed in proper etiquette as they (kissy, kissy), without them, the Republican Party is going to finish dying on the vine. And it is Ron Paul that these young people are backing. So, they'll need to make the decision. Do they want Hillary as President, or do they want to take another look at Ron Paul and realize he does not "control" the actions of the many Americans who support him.

[LibertyEagle]

I do wish it would.

Huh? :confused: You think the campaign should alienate a whole segment of their supporters. I think not. Think about it.

[McDermit]

RON PAUL has a civilized image. Why do his supporters need to? If they agree with RP's positions otherwise, his supporters shouldn't be the deciding factor.

[davidhperry]

To show your enthusiasm and support with signs and handing out literature on RP at another candidates rally is quite another thing, as long as its done with some taste.

Yes, totally. It's not what we do, but how we do it.

[LibertyEagle]

To show your enthusiasm and support with signs and handing out literature on RP at another candidates rally is quite another thing, as long as its done with some taste.

Well, I've got to agree, I think that's pretty tacky. But, all I can do is control myself. It's not my job to control anyone else.

[davidhperry]

I humbly suggest that we draft a short letter summarizing our thoughts in this thread and then get it out to the meetup groups.

It need not be patronizing or authoritative. I think we can write a good letter on this and I think its important.

yea/nea?

I can write one tommorow night and post it up for comment if you like.

A wholehearted "yea" from me. PLease post it here and I'll send it to our group. I'm sore that many will do the same. This is becoming increasingly important as the movement gets bigger.

[Revolution9]

I'm not sure I would respect that, because their rationale is ridiculous. I mean, our Congress has been projecting a very "civilized image" as they tried to cram amnesty down our throats just awhile back. They were also very "civilized" when they voted to give Social Security to illegal aliens.

This campaign has attracted a lot of young people. If it were me, I would point out to them that while many of these people are young and not as versed in proper etiquette as they (kissy, kissy), without them, the Republican Party is going to finish dying on the vine. And it is Ron Paul that these young people are backing. So, they'll need to make the decision. Do they want Hillary as President, or do they want to take another look at Ron Paul and realize he does not "control" the actions of the many Americans who support him.

Kaboom! LibertyEagle wins this threads best rebuttal to control freaks award of the week. I think we should make this the sticky instead of the unfounded wishy washy bow the knee crap in the first post from someone who is new on ths board.

Best Reagards
Randy

[quickmike]

Well, I've got to agree, I think that's pretty tacky. But, all I can do is control myself. It's not my job to control anyone else.

Yeah, it might be tacky, I agree. I wouldnt call it rude though.

Some of the best salesmen on the planet are also some of the tackiest people on the planet becaues theyre the hustlers, the used car salesmen dressed in the liesure suits, Donald Trump with his 4 dollar hair piece not afraid to sell themselves to the point of being ridiculous sometimes. But you know what? It works.

Just dont be overbearing and rude about it.

[Corydoras]

Huh? :confused: You think the campaign should alienate a whole segment of their supporters. I think not. Think about it.

I thought about it before I wrote that and I thought about it some more. Do you really believe that people who need to be reminded of their manners are "a whole segment" of Ron Paul's supporters?

[LibertyEagle]

I thought about it before I wrote that and I thought about it some more. Do you really believe that people who need to be reminded of their manners are "a whole segment" of Ron Paul's supporters?

I think there is a segment who views manners, differently than some others. Yes, I do. I doubt this segment is very large, but I would imagine every single campaign out there has a segment like this. Only maybe ours is more passionate about their candidate. :)

[Corydoras]

RON PAUL has a civilized image. Why do his supporters need to? If they agree with RP's positions otherwise, his supporters shouldn't be the deciding factor.

His supporters need to because they represent Ron Paul. It's that simple.

[Corydoras]

I think there is a segment who views manners, differently than some others. Yes, I do. I doubt this segment is very large, but I would imagine every single campaign out there has a segment like this. Only maybe ours is more passionate about their candidate. :)

And you think they would decide not to vote for Ron Paul if they were urged to learn simple persuasion techniques?

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah, it might be tacky, I agree. I wouldnt call it rude though.



To some older "Party" women, they probably see it that way though. You know, they go to see their candidate speak and there are a bunch of Ron Paul supporters there waving signs and chanting Ron Paul's name? I'm not saying that's the way it happens, but if it were, yeah, I can see why they'd think it was rude. Can't you?

It's only my opinion, but I think we can do a lot more by going after people who aren't at someone else's event. I mean, why would we do that, when there are crowds of people all over the place, elsewhere. Concerts, gun shows, football games, flea markets, malls, and on and on.

[McDermit]

His supporters need to because they represent Ron Paul. It's that simple.I agree that they should be respectful while campaigning - but you missed the point. For someone already familiar with RP's stances and who otherwise supports him, the percieved civility of his supporters should not be a deciding factor.

Ron Paul has said multiple times, he doesn't endorse his supporters. It's the other way around.

[Revolution9]

I thought about it before I wrote that and I thought about it some more. Do you really believe that people who need to be reminded of their manners are "a whole segment" of Ron Paul's supporters?

This is not about manners. This is politics. An abbattoir where the meek get slaughtered and laughed at if they lose the election. We are formidable. We are contagious. They do not want us near their phony assed candidates. They have jingoism and false pride. We have true ethics, real passion and dignity that is not bought and sold like a thousand dollar suit housng a nickel and dime heart of stone pretending to guage the pulse of the streets as a paid political consultant. Screw these idiots. They want to trash ths country into the dirt along with the planet leaving deadly baby deforming DU dust and fields of broken and smashed humans corpses and lives in the wake of ther political phllosophy's strongarm mercenaries, and then whine about it after it happens like it wasn't their goddmaned fault for allowing the real estate between their ears to be owned by psyop programmers whose mischiefs has turned them into primordial consumers bent on a kimodo dragon-like feeding frenzy. Let them rot and drop off like the cancerous drag on the ascension of the citizenry of this fine country out of the fraudulent rot of "isms" and massive ponerologicallly inculcated groupthnk known as the 20th century. Convert or croak like a dinosaur. This ain't over if they block RP's nomination.. This has only just begun.

Best Regards
Randy

[McDermit]

To some older "Party" women, they probably see it that way though. You know, they go to see their candidate speak and there are a bunch of Ron Paul supporters there waving signs and chanting Ron Paul's name? I'm not saying that's the way it happens, but if it were, yeah, I can see why they'd think it was rude. Can't you?

It's only my opinion, but I think we can do a lot more by going after people who aren't at someone else's event. I mean, why would we do that, when there are crowds of people all over the place, elsewhere. Concerts, gun shows, football games, flea markets, malls, and on and on.
The sign waving at others' events is mainly for media purposes. Most people are doing it because the MSM covers all of FDT's engagements, but not RP's. They're hoping to steal a little bit of that spotlight by showing the MSM that RP has supporters everywhere.

I don't think it should be a huge problem, as long as it's kept respectful. Chanting isn't necessary. The idea is to shadow. Hand out lit when approached (flyer cars during the event if you wish) but otherwise just stand there with your sign and shut up.

[LibertyEagle]

And you think they would decide not to vote for Ron Paul if they were urged to learn simple persuasion techniques?

How are you going to urge them? That's the thing. You can write up some suggestions and see if they'll consider them, but bottom line, they're going to do what they're going to do. And in a lot of cases, they're going to be right.

I used to think much like you, until someone on this board taught me that the same approach does not work on all people. I was stubborn about it for awhile, but bottom line, he was right and I was wrong. His approach would not work with the people I'm usually around and my approach would not work with the people he talks to.

In the end, all we can control is our own actions. We can offer our experiences to others and even advice, but it is their decision as to whether to accept it.

[LibertyEagle]

This is not about manners. This is politics. An abbattoir where the meek get slaughtered and laughed at if they lose the election. We are formidable. We are contagious. They do not want us near their phony assed candidates. They have jingoism and false pride. We have true ethics, real passion and dignity that is not bought and sold like a thousand dollar suit housng a nickel and dime heart of stone pretending to guage the pulse of the streets as a paid political consultant. Screw these idiots. They want to trash ths country into the dirt along with the planet leaving deadly baby deforming DU dust and fields of broken and smashed humans corpses and lives in the wake of ther political phllosophy's strongarm mercenaries, and then whine about it after it happens like it wasn't their goddmaned fault for allowing the real estate between their ears to be owned by psyop programmers whose mischiefs has turned them into primordial consumers bent on a kimodo dragon-like feeding frenzy. Let them rot and drop off like the cancerous drag on the ascension of the citizenry of this fine country out of the fraudulent rot of "isms" and massive ponerologicallly inculcated groupthnk known as the 20th century. Convert or croak like a dinosaur. This ain't over if they block RP's nomination.. This has only just begun.

Best Regards
Randy

You DO have a way with words, Rev. :)

[McDermit]

And you think they would decide not to vote for Ron Paul if they were urged to learn simple persuasion techniques?
There are some things that shouldn't be messed with. But in part, the campaign has sent Anita Andrews for this reason. She's pushing more mainstream, tried and true techniques. Ways to be more effective while doing sign wavings and everything else.

What do you want, a press release?

[Corydoras]

You can write up some suggestions and see if they'll consider them, but bottom line, they're going to do what they're going to do. And in a lot of cases, they're going to be right.

I agree. And furthermore I say this does not constitute control.

[quickmike]

To some older "Party" women, they probably see it that way though. You know, they go to see their candidate speak and there are a bunch of Ron Paul supporters there waving signs and chanting Ron Paul's name? I'm not saying that's the way it happens, but if it were, yeah, I can see why they'd think it was rude. Can't you?

It's only my opinion, but I think we can do a lot more by going after people who aren't at someone else's event. I mean, why would we do that, when there are crowds of people all over the place, elsewhere. Concerts, gun shows, football games, flea markets, malls, and on and on.

I completely agree with the chanting and yelling ron pauls name part. That IS rude, especially when youre trying to listen to your candidate speak. To calmly walk up to someone and hand them a flyer is a different story though. Its just a matter of common sense if you ask me.

[LibertyEagle]

The sign waving at others' events is mainly for media purposes. Most people are doing it because the MSM covers all of FDT's engagements, but not RP's. They're hoping to steal a little bit of that spotlight by showing the MSM that RP has supporters everywhere.

I don't think it should be a huge problem, as long as it's kept respectful. Chanting isn't necessary. The idea is to shadow. Hand out lit when approached (flyer cars during the event if you wish) but otherwise just stand there with your sign and shut up.

Sounds reasonable to me. :)

[Corydoras]

For someone already familiar with RP's stances and who otherwise supports him, the percieved civility of his supporters should not be a deciding factor.

I don't think it's practical, or for that matter right, to tell people not to be influenced by their perceptions of a candidate's supporters.

First, they ARE influenced by it, whether one wants them to be or not. Engaging with reality is always helpful in campaigning.

Second, voters make their decisions based on many factors, some of which may be unworthy, and many of which may be intangible-- but it is their right to do so.

[archemeedees]

I side strongly with the notion that being professional and respectful is going to do much more good for the campaign than not, but I also love the Ron Paul-ite notion that none of us should control the others.

[McDermit]

Silly me, what was I thinking? Logic is never practical. Logic is never right. Logic is downright unethical! Elections should only be about warm fuzzy feelings.

[Corydoras]

Silly me, what was I thinking? Logic is never practical. Logic is never right. Logic is downright unethical! Elections should only be about warm fuzzy feelings.

And arguing by reductio ad absurdum isn't logical either.

[katao]

Come on guys - how can a request to be polite be controversial? That's not control - just common sense. Our job is to win friends and influence people - politeness is a prerequisite.

[jblosser]

I recall reading a piece written by a journalist who was in attendance at the Texas straw poll who felt that it was entirely possible that the flood of non-voting Ron Paul supporters there may have had the unintended impact of turning some of the voting attendees off and actually decreasing the votes Paul received. I can't say I entirely doubt that assessment.

You start out talking about people being rude, and then there is this. I see no accusation people were rude here, only that... there were too many of us?

I don't want people to be rude either, and the DFW people aren't rude, but the suggestion we shouldn't be out at all it nuts. Ron wouldn't be getting any of the press he is getting if we weren't keeping the numbers pressure on. The only weapon we have to crack the first tier lie is our numbers, and it is working, as seen by the way the MSM fought at the last debate and the trickle of more favorable articles they've had to start giving Ron since then.

There is no way I'll apologize for our presence at that poll. The campaign appreciated it, the press covered it, the GOP party leadership gave us compliments for our numbers and behavior (including in their after presentations to area clubs about how the poll went), and most importantly the public saw his name and came to see what was up. The majority of the TX GOP who did *not* go to the poll because they are as fed up with the party and the "first tier" as we are showing more interest than ever. How in the world do you expect people to vote for him if they haven't heard of him, and how are they going to hear of him if we don't forbid them from ignoring us?

As for turning people off at the poll in any way, the undecided simply did not come in measurable numbers. Those that came that weren't with us could teach many lessons on how to be rude. I won't bother to repeat all the names we were called just standing around with party invitations and a smile. Yes, they were offended by us. They were offended because they know we don't agree we should kill random Arabs just because they're Arabs, and we refuse to live in homicidal fear. No, we didn't use those words with them... we didn't get the chance! They called us names before we opened our mouths. Some were less convinced they need to live in terror and would talk to us, and we had perfectly respectful conversations with them. But the majority that wasn't already with us preferred to just call us idiots, communists, cowards, etc. and tell us we were wasting our time and should be forcibly committed to insane asylums or worse.

[jblosser]

You also have to keep in mind that plenty of the press hates him and will say whatever it takes. They'll make things up and spin things to not resemble any reality. So spending a lot of time telling the world not to be rude because of press is not terribly useful if it's a minority already (it is) and the press only needs one person to say it (they don't even need that).

For example, the FW Star Telegram reported how one person at a 6am straw poll pre-meeting was clean cut, while the rest of us looked like star trek convention rejects. In the room at the time were at least 4 businessmen in suits, another dozen average upper middle class types, and exactly 3 people with long hair, who were the closest to anything counter-culture. But why should they let facts get in the way?

[Corydoras]

the suggestion we shouldn't be out at all it nuts.
That suggestion was not made.


There is no way I'll apologize for our presence at that poll.
An apology was not requested.

But the fact that you seem to think these things does suggest a tendency to assume that people are more against you than they actually are.

And such a tendency necessarily hobbles an attempt to be persuasive.

[Corydoras]

spending a lot of time telling the world not to be rude because of press is not terribly useful

It isn't mainly because of the press. The article was used as an illustration, an example, of what people are reporting from their individual experience-- that Ron Paul supporters are getting a reputation for being obnoxious.



You also have to keep in mind that plenty of the press hates him and will say whatever it takes. They'll make things up and spin things to not resemble any reality.

This is frankly defeatist. Adversarial relationships with the press have crushed presidents before. Presidents, and candidates for the presidency, need the press. And in a relationship, it is never wise to approach people with the attitude that they are dishonest and motivated by hate.

[jblosser]

This is frankly defeatist. Adversarial relationships with the press have crushed presidents before. Presidents, and candidates for the presidency, need the press. And in a relationship, it is never wise to approach people with the attitude that they are dishonest and motivated by hate.

It's not defeatist, it's realist. They *will* lie about us, even more than they already are. I didn't say don't talk to the press or be adversarial with them. But we have to understand the reality of the relationship so that things happen on our terms as much as possible, not theirs. Reacting to them at face value leads most directly to being controlled by them. Understanding they shouldn't be taken at face value allows us a better opportunity to keep a hand in how we are portrayed.

[Corydoras]

They *will* lie about us, even more than they already are. I didn't say don't talk to the press or be adversarial with them.

I think a good way to have an adversarial relationship is to assume that the other party is lying when they are overwhelmingly likely to be cynical and mentally lazy. There's a big distinction between lying and cynicism.


we have to understand the reality of the relationship so that things happen on our terms as much as possible, not theirs.

And the reality of the relationship is that they are not our adversaries. They are not our friends. They're a bunch of overgrown English majors who usually have not examined their assumptions about the world terribly closely.


Reacting to them at face value leads most directly to being controlled by them. Understanding they shouldn't be taken at face value allows us a better opportunity to keep a hand in how we are portrayed.

Please explain further what you mean by "face value." I mean, nobody has thought the press is objective or heroic or a force for good in at least thirty years.

[speciallyblend]

The problem i see ,is no matter what republicans support they are like talking to a brick wall and have their own agenda. YOU SEE THERE ARE SOME THICK HEADED REPUBLICANS WHO THINK BY MOCKING RON PAUL AND IGNORING HIS MESSAGE THEY WILL WIN THE GENERAL ELECTION. THE GOP CANNOT WIN THIS ELECTION WITHOUT RON PAUL AS THEIR NOMINEE...PERIOD

I DONT MEAN TO SOUND HARSH


but many of the fredheads/rudolfs/maccain people are pretty much lost,they are just pissed because they get paid and still cant do what a volunteer Ron Paul supporter does.The problem i see is the GOP doesnt understand how dead in the water they are.There are even a section of christians that justify these wars with their beliefs,its not about the war,its about using the christian agenda to justify righting every wrong in every country as if we are the saviors of the whole earth,THIS IS A A MAJOR PROBLEM,they are overriding our constitution in the name of the bible. I have flat out heard this argument from a pastor supporting rudolf.sigh sigh sigh . THE GOP IS SO BUSY MOCKING RON PAUL,they are already losing support for the GOP across the board.I'm not sure what to say,but the gop is dead.I am voting for RON PAUL,but i trully see a deaf/dumb/blind GOP,if it offends anyone so be it.I'm pretty much over the republicans mocking and down right disrespecting Ron Paul.I dont see hope in the GOP,the laughable part about all the new republican registered voters,they are gonna leave the minute the GOP ignores RON PAUL,RON PAUL 2008

PS the complainers in the gop should complain more about losing the next election,then there only hope RON PAUL,once again not a warning or a threat,just a PROMISE,from republican voters like my family.

[Corydoras]

I dont see hope in the GOP,the laughable part about all the new republican registered voters,they are gonna leave the minute the GOP ignores RON PAUL,RON PAUL 2008

I agree, they'd rather be like Huckabee and fail for some fake honor rather than to build America. In the meantime, we just have to keep on winning voters for Ron Paul, and then maybe we'll get them to start listening up.

[Razmear]

I agree on making this thread a sticky.

If the time comes that we need to storm the castle at dawn, I'll be there, but for now I'll smile, be polite and try and convince the masses to vote for Ron Paul.

If you are attending another candidates event, just hand out lit and let them absorb it, chanting or dissing the candidate they came to see isn't going to sell them on Ron Paul. Also remember that just because someone is going to Romney or McCain event, that does not mean they are sold on that candidate. However if they see a few polite and respectful Ron Paul supporters handing out info, they might consider supporting him, but on the other hand if they see a bunch of screaming nutjobs holding Ron Paul signs and insulting other GOP candidates, they will likely be so turned off that they would never bother to look any further.

eb

[Syren123]

Few more thoughts - its something ive been thinking about a lot lately.

Not because Ive seen rude ron paul supporters, but because of changes in my own life recently.

I think a big reason people like RP is because they "discover" him. I did on the net and spent about a month learning about him before I joined meetup, donated, posted on this forum etc. For some people it just takes time - but once they decide they are invaluable.

Im surprised at how committed to this effort I have become. People who know me are surprised. I have to be careful how much I talk about RP around my friends, family because I dont want to overwhelm them. If I did, they'd just think Ive gone nutty.

I think its all good for us to take a step back and objectively analyze things. We are all in this 100% but we need to consider how people who have never heard of RP will react to us.

If I was now, the same pre-RP person that I was just 2 months ago, and a colleague kept going on about RP, Id get ticked off. And I may not be a committed RP supporter.

At this point we just need to get out name recognition and then let people "discover" RP for themselves. Sure if people ask questions we should be ready to answer, but I think we just need to get the name "Ron Paul" in peoples heads at the moment. Ron Paul himeself will do the rest.

People worry because we just have a few months. I dont think we need to worry about time too much, we have 4-5 months till the primary. Thats good time.

Thanks for reading my rambling.

I think this is 100% right on. Experienced this very thing myself today.

[Akus]

I want to call the following article to the attention of all Ron Paul supporters:
http://blogs.theledger.com/default.asp?item=676821

It notes that Fred Thompson supporters found the behavior of Ron Paul supporters at one of their events to be rude. I fully understand the....

I think some of our supporters are being rude, but the case could be made the other way, like Jblosser did. We need to be present in as many ## as possible.

I personally, never give people a hard sell. If people say they're automatically not interested because he is a Republican/anti-war/anti(fill-in the blank), I say thank you and move on.

I personally believe that those who want to know who is running already do. It's not like people do not have internet. It's not like there is not access to information. And those who don't know wouldn't care anyway.

Still, I tell people of Ron Paul whenever I can.

[LibertyEagle]

It's not like people do not have internet.

Actually, there are a lot of people who do not have access to the internet. Others, who only have access at the office. Some that do have access, only have dial-up, so watching videos is pretty much out.

Thus far, we seem to be forgetting that these folks exist. We rock on the internet, but off of it, we have a long way to go to get the message out.

[ButchHowdy]

The United States is ON FIRE folks - people need to be warned.

Do you think Paul Revere worried about OFFENDING anyone?

"We do not represent Ron Paul . . . HE represents US"

[john_anderson_ii]

I think my entire extended family is sold on RP because of my personal involvement. When my grandma found out that I'd spent an entire weekend out at the AZ fairgrounds covering a gun show for RP, she got my aunts, uncles, great aunts, and the entire family tree involved.

I don't know how many of my family will get out and vote in a primary, but I do know that they are all listening because it's something I'm doing with my life, and something I'm proud of.

They find it fascinating that I'm an Iraq veteran, whose 100% against the war. Through me they've learned the bad side of too much pride, the bad economics, bad foreign policy, and bad precedents that will come back to haunt them as they get older.

When it comes to family, don't be shy, and don't worry about them thinking you are a nutcase. Your family will most likely love you unconditionally, and become interested and involved because you are interested and involved.

As a matter of fact, my sister is a legal student. When she graduates law school, she wants to become a prosecutor, so that she can become a judge in Maricopa county. We are both very libertarian, and we debate a lot on particular issues. We both do our homework, and issues like immigration and photo radar become family "dinner table" discussion. Talk like this is what will save this country of ours. My entire family educates themselves on current events before gatherings so they can keep up with my sister and I in dinnertime discussions. Since both me and my sis are hardcore Ron Paulers the rest of the family knows what is going on with his campaign as well.

I think the sum and substance of Ron Paul's entire campaign is that we should be discussing these issues openly with one another, in every venue and on every corner. How else can we expect our legislature to openly and heatedly debate any issue if it's not something that's open for discussion at the dining room table of American families?

[LibertyEagle]

I think the sum and substance of Ron Paul's entire campaign is that we should be discussing these issues openly with one another, in every venue and on every corner. How else can we expect our legislature to openly and heatedly debate any issue if it's not something that's open for discussion at the dining room table of American families?

Well, that's certainly the way it was, back in the day of our Founders and you're right, the American people need to take back up their duty to be "ever vigilant".

[Lois]

Good post, John. Sounds like you have a wonderful family.

[john_anderson_ii]

Well, that's certainly the way it was, back in the day of our Founders and you're right, the American people need to take back up their duty to be "ever vigilant".

With the exception of my sister and I, my entire family's livelihood hinges on real estate. My grandfather, father and several uncles have gone through the entire transition from builder, to contractor, to appraiser to consultant. My aunts are brokers and/or appraisers. A discussion of the fed, interest rates, and the buying power of the U.S. dollar captures attentive ears in my family.

I guess I may have lost the point of my original post. That was to not worry about being rude in most cases. The opening of frank and open discussion is not in itself rude. You need be mindful of your starting positions and assumptions, but other than that, don't be afraid to open debate.

These are things we should be talking about over Brittany Spear's latest boob job, or Paris Hilton's latest boyfriend. Opening a good and honest debate, no matter who the opposition may be is a good thing, and it's not rude at all.

(P.S. I have no idea if Paris has a boyfriend or if Brittany has ever had a boob job. I'm just saying this because the magazines in my bathroom are talking about them instead of about how much that ostrich skin purse is going to cost when you can't afford to get credit no matter how rich you are.)

[Dary]

Last weekend when we were waving signs at the Jaguars game here in Jacksonville, someone walking through the crowd yelled "He's an idiot and so are you!"

We didn't exchange insults and we don't know who he was supporting.

We found out where the Mitt supporters planned to meet in order to watch the last debate and decided to meet them there and show our support for Ron. We outnumbered them around 15 to 23.

We put a sign up in a strategic location and there was one woman that kept putting her Mitt sign in front of ours. Ours was there first.

We thought that was pretty rude but we didn't get into it with her. We just moved our sign back to the front.

Anyone ever visit the Hannity forum?

Did you see how Chris Wallace treated Ron at the last debate?

What about the Bill O’reilly interview?

The "Oh God" comment by Chris Matthews?

The other talking head at Fox who hung up on Ron during a phone interview?

What about Rudy "take it back" Giuliani? Or Mitt "he forgot about 911" Romney?

Of course we shouldn't be rude, but it is easy to say that one of us was rude and yet having nothing to back it up.

Besides, we’ve been through this already with the supposed callers to the GOP Chair in Michigan Saul WhateverHisNameIs.

[qwerty]

You don´t win nothing with being rude!

[Nefertiti]

. Screw these idiots....Convert or croak like a dinosaur.

Best Regards
Randy

Not to pick on Randy, but he makes a good example here. We are a diverse group supporting Ron Paul. Randy's language might work with a certain crowd. But I know people who might be open to Ron Paul's message who would be put off with a style like Randy's if it were the style used to promote him to them.

No one needs to change who they are to participate in this campaign, but please use your head when you choose who to campaign to. If you know that you have a tendency to scare little old blue haired ladies then don't try and campaign to them. Let someone else who understands and has rapport with little old blue haired ladies do that. Save your campaigning for groups of people to whom YOU can relate.

[Revolution9]

You don´t win nothing with being rude!

No...you win by sticking to your guns. You win by knocking each and every trojan horse to pieces and makng a bonfire of its dismanteled timbers to light your condidates message. You win by not taking any crap lying down.You do not win on bended knee. You do not win byt takng your marching orders from your opponents supporters. You do not win by paying attention to and catering to their whining. You do not win by leting them lie and get away wth it without cramming their facetious BS back down their throats and makng it very uncomfortable for them to try it again.

The bottom line. RP or thermonuclear war, martial law, one world government, locked down borders designed to keep Americans in and allow illegal immigrants in to take jobs that Americans need desparately. A dollar worth 40 cents on the Euro, income tax at 50+%..and then the NAU. Don't be rude to jackasses supporting this paradigm? I am sick and bloody fed up. Some of you have only been pissed for a short time. I have watched this unfold over a twenty year period. These asswipes have been nothing but rude to me and my people and the people of the world. I have no sympathies for them nor do I offer them any quarter. Nor do I offer any quarter to any RP supporter who attempts to control me. I know exactly what I am doing. I take no guff from any clowns.

Best Regards
Randy

[WCR]

Why does this article call Ron Paul former Republican Congressman?:mad:

[klamath]

I know that when I first started looking at RP I was still open to looking at other candidates. It was name calling, ridicule and contempt for RP from the republicans that made me a solid Rp supporter. Now I would vote for no one else even if RP lost the primaries. This is what we need to avoid on our side. There is a huge amount of soft support for the other candidates right now but we don't want to turn that into solid support by doing doing to them what they did to me.

[constituent]

yea... i disagree w/ the OP interely... and i don't think MR. White and I have agreed on anything yet.

[constituent]

let them attack us. and then when we "turn the other cheek" and return the next day smiling again and waiving our signs again, and they attack us...

they loose everytime. it's not about those one or two partisan wanker hacks that are actually going to attend a fred thompson event (why are they voting for him?). those people feel righteous because they have annointed themselves the deciders of their own little world... other people, more informed, are now threatening their position as the insider/decider...

again, their problem... they loose. when we show up smiling and waving, it makes us look good to all the non-hacks tagging along, when the hacks react and start bad mouthing, it makes the hacks look worse to all the tag alongs... and since they are tag alongs anyway, guess who they then choose to tag along w/ in the future....



it has happened again and again and again in this campaign. we need to run w/ it, not hide from it.

[disinter]

RON PAUL has a civilized image. Why do his supporters need to? If they agree with RP's positions otherwise, his supporters shouldn't be the deciding factor.

Bingo. They are voting for Ron Paul, not his supporters.

[constituent]

You don´t win nothing with being rude!

yes, i understand we don't win nothing....

but what do we win?

[Spirit of '76]

I don't think there's anything wrong with going to other candidates' appearances and waving signs, passing out flyers, and talking to people about Ron.

What I don't think is effective is yelling at people and/or telling people that they're stupid and need to "wake the f**k up" because right now they're leaning toward another candidate.

[iamso910]

This ain't a game of football.

You don't see football fans recruiting opposition team's fans, usually the hostility between them grows during episodes of vigorous support!

We all need to be spokesman and to replicate the calmness and consideration that Ron Paul shows, when trying to convert non-believers. Direct the passion wisely.

[qwerty]

No...you win by sticking to your guns. You win by knocking each and every trojan horse to pieces and makng a bonfire of its dismanteled timbers to light your condidates message. You win by not taking any crap lying down.You do not win on bended knee. You do not win byt takng your marching orders from your opponents supporters. You do not win by paying attention to and catering to their whining. You do not win by leting them lie and get away wth it without cramming their facetious BS back down their throats and makng it very uncomfortable for them to try it again.

The bottom line. RP or thermonuclear war, martial law, one world government, locked down borders designed to keep Americans in and allow illegal immigrants in to take jobs that Americans need desparately. A dollar worth 40 cents on the Euro, income tax at 50+%..and then the NAU. Don't be rude to jackasses supporting this paradigm? I am sick and bloody fed up. Some of you have only been pissed for a short time. I have watched this unfold over a twenty year period. These asswipes have been nothing but rude to me and my people and the people of the world. I have no sympathies for them nor do I offer them any quarter. Nor do I offer any quarter to any RP supporter who attempts to control me. I know exactly what I am doing. I take no guff from any clowns.

Best Regards
Randy

I think that most people who support other candidates, don´t even know WHAT THEY ARE SUPPORTING.

So being rude to them is a good way to get them NOT LISTEN to you.

Being polite and tell the truth to them and they could wake up...

[pennycat]

I wasn't there, but I know a few people in the Lakeland RP Meetup. They are all excellent supporters of RP including the organizer. Any disparaging comments should be retracted.

As evidence I submit the following video and report:

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070916/NEWS/709160493/1039

Anyone that feels this is not legitimate campaigning, can go back to sitting in front of their computer. Or maybe you've done that already;-)

[Trance Dance Master]

Agreed, but some here simply use the rp campagin to push their own agenda.
You can't expect everyone to march in lockstep with the person in front of them on all the issues. The political arena is a circus. May the best show get the most votes. It's more important that RP's supporters keep him in line than viceversa.

[jblosser]

I think a good way to have an adversarial relationship is to assume that the other party is lying when they are overwhelmingly likely to be cynical and mentally lazy. There's a big distinction between lying and cynicism.

I gave a specific example of how reporters have in fact lied that a majority of a crowd is one way, when it's true of only one or two of them. When a reporter writes that a room of professionals in suits and other business attire contains only one person who is "clean-cut, but the rest of the spacey Paul crowd looked like half gun-rights bubbas, half technoheads who wandered off from a Star Trek convention", he is not beiny cynical, he is lying to create a misconception in the mind of his readers. Or he has a bad enough memory or eyesight that he probably should reconsider his chosen profession, or carry a video camera to remind him what really happened.

When one article claims that attendence at a Ron Paul event is half what it demonstrably was, we can say that perhaps the reporter left early, or doesn't count very well. But when this same kind of pattern is repeated over and over for most every event Ron speaks at, other hypotheses begin to make some sense as well.

When Hannity claims that our people are mutliple voting in a text poll to win, I won't say he is lying, but only because I doubt he bothers to find out the truth of what he says. I won't give him the honor to call that cynicism either, though. It's deliberate dishonesty whether he knows all the details or just can't be bothered with the truth.


And the reality of the relationship is that they are not our adversaries. They are not our friends. They're a bunch of overgrown English majors who usually have not examined their assumptions about the world terribly closely.

There are plenty who know exactly what they are doing and are working against us to maintain their way of life, and they aren't just on Fox News. Or are you going to claim not even Hannity and O'Reilly are actively working against us?


Please explain further what you mean by "face value." I mean, nobody has thought the press is objective or heroic or a force for good in at least thirty years.

I mean that if an article talks about Ron Paul supporters being rude, we should not just assume Ron Paul supporters are in fact being rude and try to stop people from being rude. We should also not expect that even if all of our people are as polite as can be that they will still not be reported as being rude.

Yes, I am aware people are talking about their own experiences as well. By all means if you see people around you treating others with less respect than they deserve, do something about it. But if you read about it happening somewhere else, find out if it really happened before believing it did or giving advice on what people in that other location need to do differently.

The people in DFW are out handing out push cards and holding signs multiple times every week. I have never once observed one of them call anyone a name, yell at someone, or have anything but polite behavior. It's work to even get them to raise their voices to chant during a parade. When people drive by and boo at us, we cheer at them every time. At the Straw Poll we showed up at a Duncan Hunter rally and just quiety held signs a few dozen feet away. No one in our group opened their mouths until Duncan asked them to join his group in signing God Bless America, which we did. We received multiple compliments from people for our appearance and behaviour there, and our donation tables were flooded afterward. It was arguably the most successful PR event of the weekend.

They behave this way despite the people that walk by and calls us names in passing, like "idiot", "cowards", "damn hippies", "communists", "fucking kooks", "nutjobs", "wastes of time", etc. Last night I was just walking my kids to the bathroom at a sign wave and got called an idiot as I walked past some random person.

Of course the majority of the response we get is positive and our numbers are growing daily. Last night at the same event we had our quickest turnaround yet - a gentleman who had never voted in his life asked who Ron was and talked to us for about a half hour, then came back an hour later and picked up a sign and held it himself until we left.

So no, I'm not going to believe MSM reports that people in this area are being rude or argumentative or hurting the campaign, even though I have seen those reports. The inverse is true in every way. I can't speak for other locations where rudeness is reported but because I can't speak for them I'll give them benefit of the doubt and urge people to keep things in perspective.

[Trance Dance Master]

They behave this way despite the people that walk by and calls us names in passing, like "idiot", "cowards", "damn hippies", "communists", "fucking kooks", "nutjobs", "wastes of time", etc. Last night I was just walking my kids to the bathroom at a sign wave and got called an idiot as I walked past some random person.
People don't say these things to me while campaigning, unless they're driving by in a car. The worst ad hominem I've heard was "Ron Paul sucks". Look them in the eyes and hold your chest and head up high. Point your finger at them and tell them that they are wrong. This will demoralize and perhaps even intimidate the enemy. Don't back down from anyone. Always feel free to interrupt them when they're arguing with you. Let them know that what you're doing is more important than what they're doing.

[jblosser]

People don't say these things to me while campaigning, unless they're driving by in a car. The worst ad hominem I've heard was "Ron Paul sucks". Look them in the eyes and hold your chest and head up high. Point your finger at them and tell them that they are wrong. This will demoralize and perhaps even intimidate the enemy. Don't back down from anyone. Always feel free to interrupt them when they're arguing with you. Let them know that what you're doing is more important than what they're doing.

I imagine it depends on what part of the country you are in. Like I said, most are positive, but the closer we get to the rural Texas crowd, the more chickenhawks we run into who hate us for our freedoms. It's still only 1 or 2 in evey few hundred, but that's more rude people than our grassroots camp has.

We usually just cheer at the cars that yell, they really don't expect that. The walkers don't typically care to talk to us and we're not going to stoop to their level. If they aren't yell-and-runners we might try to ask what they mean by that and see if they'll talk... a very few will and even fewer of those find out they believed something about Ron that wasn't true, but most of them don't want to hear the truth. There's no point picking a fight with them, there's plenty of other people willing to hear there is an honest person to vote for.

[jblosser]

I wasn't there, but I know a few people in the Lakeland RP Meetup. They are all excellent supporters of RP including the organizer. Any disparaging comments should be retracted.

As evidence I submit the following video and report:

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070916/NEWS/709160493/1039

Anyone that feels this is not legitimate campaigning, can go back to sitting in front of their computer. Or maybe you've done that already;-)

Thank you for that. :-)

Fred Thompson has a horrid gun control legislation record. He voted for Lautenberg, for pete's sake. And yet we are hearing he has deals where he's the only candidate allowed to campaign inside gun shows in certain areas.

Standing quiety with a sign in these areas and noting the actual facts both of his record and Ron's real support is only "rude" in that it musses his carefully crafted photo op meant to maintain the hollywood illusion of the first tier.

[drednot]

We are the Missionaries, they are the Savages.

We're there to persuade and convert, not to protest.

We want their clowns to be rude, it makes us more attractive to the rest.

If you go to Republican candidate's event and rail on about the CFR and the Illegal War for Oil you are going to permanently lose those votes.

Better to highlight the things they are likely to agree about.

Only Ron Paul consistently voted against all unconstitutional spending.
Only Ron Paul consistently opposed Roe v. Wade.
Only Ron Paul consistently opposed gun control.


Many will be intransigent about the War. For those people, the best response is to say it's either gonna be an Anti-War conservative (ie, Ron Paul) or Hillary, higher taxes and socialism.

[mdh]

While I agree with the general sentiment, I don't necessarily believe that the people at that event were rude. No proof has been presented to us of such, so let's not hastily believe some random blogger who is on the opposing team.

Think of it like a sport. Just because someone is on the other team now, doesn't mean they won't join ours in the future. On the other hand, never neglect to play fairly and play to win. The other team ain't the ref, and can't call a foul on us - which is what this blog post linked in the OP may simply be - the other team trying to call a foul to make us look bad.

When someone comes up with statements about supporters behaving badly, calmly and rationally and in as friendly a tone as you can muster, ask for proof to be presented. If none is, continue in your assumption that the claims are false.

[jblosser]

Many will be intransigent about the War. For those people, the best response is to say it's either gonna be an Anti-War conservative (ie, Ron Paul) or Hillary, higher taxes and socialism.

Heading off topic, but I've started having luck with this exchange:

Them: "Who is Ron Paul?"
Me: <elevator speech introduction>
Them: "Oh, I remember him, he's that one who wants to get us out of Iraq?"
Me: "Ron Paul is one of the strongest supporters of American defense in the Congress, and he is opposed to what we're doing in Iraq because he doesn't believe it's the right approach to our defense."

That one is doing really well both with the ones that want us out and the ones that don't, as long as they aren't a complete neocon, kill em all type. Even a lot of those who believe we should be over there don't quite agree with how it's going and double take on that and will ask what he thinks we should do. From there I go into how he voted for Afghanistan on the notion it was about our defense, but then we chased UBL into Pakistan and let him go to set up shop where we were, the fact we're chasing people around in caves who can barely reach us and borrowing from China to do it and that math doesn't add up "for American defense", etc. The exact direction depends on where they take it.

The "pick Ron or Hillary wins" line doesn't go anywhere in my experience; you're asking people to switch one of their litmus issues essentially, and one they believe is keeping them personally alive. These are conscience-issue voters, they'll vote their conscience even if they'll lose. Consider, would this kind of argument work against most of us?

[erowe1]

Here's the Townhall blog analyzing the Texas straw poll:
http://www.townhall.com/blog/g/ffdb813f-dbc4-43f1-aa31-60c8988cced4

Let's say there were a few dozen legit Ron Paul voters who were disenfranchised there. That would still mean he wouldn't have gotten more than about 20% versus about 40% for Hunter. With all the Ron Paul supporters who were so active there, shouldn't we be asking why Hunter was so successful in earning votes there in comparison to Paul, who had such an army of enthusiastic supporters doing their best to rally for him? Isn't it possible that the Townhall blogger is right and that Paul's supporters may have turned some of the voters off to him? I recall reading in an article that I can no longer find that during Hunter's speech at that straw poll, a bunch of Ron Paul supporters quietly walked in and stood in the back of the room holding their signs. From what I remember, they were not trying to be disruptive or rude. But one would have to wonder how they imagined that doing that would help gain votes for Paul.

That's just another example of the kind of thing I had in mind. There's a certain tact we all need to have, so as to know when is a good time to be outspoken and noticeable and when is a good time to be subtle, discreet, and deferential.

[Stealth4]

Here's the Townhall blog analyzing the Texas straw poll:
http://www.townhall.com/blog/g/ffdb813f-dbc4-43f1-aa31-60c8988cced4

Let's say there were a few dozen legit Ron Paul voters who were disenfranchised there. That would still mean he wouldn't have gotten more than about 20% versus about 40% for Hunter. With all the Ron Paul supporters who were so active there, shouldn't we be asking why Hunter was so successful in earning votes there in comparison to Paul, who had such an army of enthusiastic supporters doing their best to rally for him? Isn't it possible that the Townhall blogger is right and that Paul's supporters may have turned some of the voters off to him? I recall reading in an article that I can no longer find that during Hunter's speech at that straw poll, a bunch of Ron Paul supporters quietly walked in and stood in the back of the room holding their signs. From what I remember, they were not trying to be disruptive or rude. But one would have to wonder how they imagined that doing that would help gain votes for Paul.

That's just another example of the kind of thing I had in mind. There's a certain tact we all need to have, so as to know when is a good time to be outspoken and noticeable and when is a good time to be subtle, discreet, and deferential.

I agree. I think spending time at other campaign events is, for the most part, a waste of our time and energy - and may have the opposite result. Ron Paul said recently at the SAIS speech (www.sais-jhu.edu) that when we occupy, blockage or put an embargo on a country we unite that country against us even if the people dont agre with each other. I think by bombarding other campaigns we might have the same effect of uniting people against Ron Paul.

I think we should be spending time at places where we will find people who like Ron Pauls ideas. Get them on board as supporters, then in a few months, when it really comes down to it, we can focus on other candidates and their records etc.

[jblosser]

Here's the Townhall blog analyzing the Texas straw poll:
http://www.townhall.com/blog/g/ffdb813f-dbc4-43f1-aa31-60c8988cced4

Let's say there were a few dozen legit Ron Paul voters who were disenfranchised there. That would still mean he wouldn't have gotten more than about 20% versus about 40% for Hunter.

We know of less than a dozen total who didn't get in, and we don't know they all were Ron voters. So yes, this didn't affect the vote.


With all the Ron Paul supporters who were so active there, shouldn't we be asking why Hunter was so successful in earning votes there in comparison to Paul, who had such an army of enthusiastic supporters doing their best to rally for him?

We absolutely should and thank you for asking that question. :-) Several of us who organized the DFW presence have been really frustrated that everyone is focusing on things that didn't happen or the notion it was all rigged and *not* doing an actual analysis of how it went down. You can read my description here:
http://ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=15309

To summarize, Duncan won because he was in the area for 2 weeks ahead of time using his contacts in the DFW GOP to get all the chickenhawks to line up behind him to make sure they got a pro-war win. He hosted open conference calls several times a week, spoke to GOP clubs, served barbeque, shook hands, etc. He worked *really hard* to get them all to vote for him, and a lot of them lined up behind him because he was the warhawk who came. They really did not want a Paul win. Make no mistake, they came in droves and full of hate for Ron to vote for Duncan specifically, and called us names on the way in the door.

The good news is he spent all that effort trying to get himself a shot in the arm nationally, and it didn't work. He got 3 votes total in MD two days later, while Ron beat Rudy in his own back yard. And he was a no one in the Fox debate. He has lingering support in the area here since he came, but in the end he managed to get only 500-some votes out of 30,000 possible. The real message of the TX Straw Poll is that the TX GOP grassroots are as angry as the rest of us and refused to come.


Isn't it possible that the Townhall blogger is right and that Paul's supporters may have turned some of the voters off to him?

It is possible, definitely. But it's not what happened in any way that was observable. Duncan's people didn't leave a doubt to who they were from the time they got there and there were plenty of them. We didn't know until the vote if it was going to be enough because we didn't know the percentage of his supporters that were delegates vs. guests, but we weren't surprised by the numbers either. The Fred guys were quieter and harder to predict but we knew he'd be the other one to beat. That's mostly the older globalist, we-should-never-have-left-Vietnam crowd who look down their noses at their grassroots people as well as ours.


I recall reading in an article that I can no longer find that during Hunter's speech at that straw poll, a bunch of Ron Paul supporters quietly walked in and stood in the back of the room holding their signs. From what I remember, they were not trying to be disruptive or rude. But one would have to wonder how they imagined that doing that would help gain votes for Paul.

The room was typical of a conference like this... people from all campaigns were coming and going during speeches, and they all had their signs with them and waved them around. There's nothing unusual about what you're describing.

You may be talking about some Ron Paul people I didn't recognize as locals walking Ron Paul signs up and down the side during other candidate speeches. I wasn't thrilled they did that but other groups did it for their candidates too. It's one of those things people do at these events.

You may also be talking about the event I described earlier where Duncan had an outdoor rally and our people held signs at the back of it. As I said, that was very well received and got the campaign a lot of good PR (and money) during the poll.

Another one that gets mentioned is that a few people booed when the GOP put Cheney's face up on the video screen. I didn't like this either but by that point the vote had already happened and the hositility from the Hunter crowd was palpable regardless. It's worth noting that at least one of the booers was an Iraq War vet; I have a hard time telling people like him that smiling and nodding at someone they know to be a war criminal is in the realm of "manners", whether it's good politics or not.


That's just another example of the kind of thing I had in mind. There's a certain tact we all need to have, so as to know when is a good time to be outspoken and noticeable and when is a good time to be subtle, discreet, and deferential.

I agree with the notion and I'm glad you're asking the questions, just make sure we know what really happened vs. the MSM reports, and understand our actual behavior and the reports aren't directly linked. That doesn't mean we don't want to improve the reports, but it does mean that it's oversimplifying to think that our behavior is bad and changing it will suffice.

[jblosser]

I agree. I think spending time at other campaign events is, for the most part, a waste of our time and energy - and may have the opposite result. Ron Paul said recently at the SAIS speech (www.sais-jhu.edu) that when we occupy, blockage or put an embargo on a country we unite that country against us even if the people dont agre with each other. I think by bombarding other campaigns we might have the same effect of uniting people against Ron Paul.

I think we should be spending time at places where we will find people who like Ron Pauls ideas. Get them on board as supporters, then in a few months, when it really comes down to it, we can focus on other candidates and their records etc.

We don't go to candidate events that aren't in public places that are going to have good general public foot traffic. The main target at these is still the general public walking by. Last weekend Rudy was in town and had 100 people at a fundraiser at the ballpark; we had 20 outside. Thousands and thousands of regular public saw us. In addition to that we do get some effect cracking the first tie lie for even attendees at the other event, though. And at some point if the cameras won't come to you, you have to go to where they are. The street has limited reach and we have to have the TV coverage multiplier at some point, even if we have to hijack the coverage a bit. How else do you deal with a near-blackout? People cannot vote for Ron if they don't know who he is and name recognition is everything right now. There is no "bad" publicity; there is negative publicity but that's better than no publicity unfortunately.

[Akus]

I want to call the following article to the attention of all Ron Paul supporters:
http://blogs.theledger.com/default.asp?item=676821

It notes that Fred Thompson supporters found the behavior of Ron Paul supporters at one of their events to be rude. I fully understand the emotions that Ron Paul supporters feel about the other candidates.


Campaign aides and supporters ignored or simply glared at a handful of supporters for Ron Paul, a former Libertarian Party candidate for president and former Republican congressman who now is running for the GOP nomination. They waved Paul signs and passed out leaflets implying Thompson wasn't as pro-gun as he claims to be.

"How rude you are," one well-dressed older woman said to a Paul supporter clad in a T-shirt and shorts.

If that is considered rude, merely being present at the other candidates' campaign, then I say keep on being rude. You can't please them all. I remember me and a couple of my RP friends were waiving Ron Paul signs at this 7/4/07 parade and one lady said she will purposely not vote for RP because our handsigns blocked the parade for her.

Oh, well. You just can't please everyone can you.

I'm sure if Ron Paul people did something outrageous like verbal or god forbid physical assault on people, Glenn Becks and Hannitys would be covering it non stop.

Rude is relative.;)

[disinter]

Bravo Akus!!

You don't vote for someone's supporters, you vote for the candidate. Besides, if you all are getting your panties in wad over some alleged incident brought to you by second-hand hearsay, then you have issues.