Ron Paul fighting Poverty?

[JVParkour]

I have a friend that is very very big government leaning. I was talking to him about poverty/'healthcare and he brought up some interesting points that I wanted to get your guys feedback on. :D As a note: I am not this friend, I just got back from CPAC and am not a troll...:D

His main reason for wanting big government and a progressive tax is that he thinks with America being such a prosperous nation, we shouldn't allow people to live in such bad conditions. ie homeless and poor. He said he wants a progressive tax and big government to 'force' people to help out others, since he thinks if there was no income tax (as I brought up to him) that people would not be charitable and basically keep all the extra money for themselves.

One crazy thing he said that struck me as odd was "I want to get to the 250,000$ tax bracket so I can be proud to be part of Barack Obama's plan. I would gladly say I get taxed that much because I would be helping the poor alot more." Or at least something close to that...:D

What are some good things to point out? I already talked about how not having an income tax would free up peoples incomes to give charitably, and the private sector gives lots more to charity to government, but he still isn't convinced?

Little help?
Thanks,
JV

[TonySutton]

Tell him he can be proud today by donating 50% of his savings and income to various charities.

[dannno]

The middle class and poor are hurt the most by the Federal Reserve's policy of expanding the money supply.

If your friend were making $250,000 then it is most likely that this is leveraged money from the banks and he would be hurting the poor more through the monetary expansion than the taxes he paid that went to the poor.

Your friend is well intentioned, but has been highly misinformed about our monetary system.

[heavenlyboy34]

Start by saying that "the poor" will invariably see very little of the money stolen from taxpayers. It will be mostly dispersed among the government workers involved. What little money actually makes it to the poor will have much less value because of inflation and poor direction of resources that is an inevitable part of central planning.

That's just off the top of my head. I might think of more later. ;):D

[Zuras]

Indeed, the poor and working class are by far the hardest hit by run away inflation. Not only do they already live much closer to the "Edge", but they rarely ever own anything that is inflation-proof.

[dannno]

Give your friend this scenario:

Let's say that your friend moved into a relatively poor island with it's own currency and limited resources. He gets to print himself, or counterfeight, $250,000 per year for himself, but he has to pay $150,000 in taxes, which he is of course OK with this because it will go to help the other people on the island. Since most of his money is going to help the poor, he thinks he is doing them a great favor.

What ends up happening is that the $250,000 your friend prints dilutes the currency and makes other people's currency less valuable so prices go up. The taxes of $150,000, even if half of it is not wasted on bureaucracy, doesn't make up for the price increases and so the people are able to purchase fewer resources than before your friend made it to the island, because he is taking resources rather than giving. The people of the island are now less well off than before he moved there.

Now, if your friend went to the island as an entrepreneur and actually made something for the people of the island that is useful, then would be willing to trade some of their resources back to your friend and everybody would be well off because your friend is contributing resources.


Also have your friend watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJDYAohRUec

[Golding]

Start by saying that "the poor" will invariably see very little of the money stolen from taxpayers. It will be mostly dispersed among the government workers involved. What little money actually makes it to the poor will have much less value because of inflation and poor direction of resources that is an inevitable part of central planning.

That's just off the top of my head. I might think of more later. ;):DCorrectamundo. I had a similar discussion with a like-minded individual, and this is the point that is insurmountable. Remind him where those tax dollars actually go.

I agree with TonySutton's post in as much that it will probably explain to him why people aren't going to give charitably to the poor. With the way certain classes are being gouged through taxation, they literally can't afford to give any more of their money away. Helping the poor is a noble cause, and you should remind him that it's not a goal you object to. But like Calvin Coolidge once said: "Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong."

[malkusm]

One crazy thing he said that struck me as odd was "I want to get to the 250,000$ tax bracket so I can be proud to be part of Barack Obama's plan. I would gladly say I get taxed that much because I would be helping the poor alot more." Or at least something close to that...:D


Why don't you ask him, when he makes more than $250,000 annually, if he would be willing to pay to private charities where the money goes directly to those in need, rather than going through the government and having all of it siphoned into Congressional paychecks and pensions, bank bailouts, subsidies, etc. - none of which benefit the poor.

Provide tangible examples of how private charity is more effective per dollar than government in helping the poor (there are plenty of them).

I would say to tell your friend that it is fraud to enforce morality onto everyone in a society by taking their wealth at gunpoint, but liberals usually don't go for that. :D

[hillertexas]

Nobody starves to death in America (unless abuse is involved). There is fresh drinking water available everywhere.

The "poor" in this country have nothing on the poor of other countries.

Americans are generous without government force. They want to help people in the manner of their own choosing.

You can't legislate morality.

And yes, your friend is free to give a larger percentage of his income to charity at any time.