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Reason
03-04-2009, 01:30 AM
I had been talking about the idea of putting a bit of my savings into gold to a friend and he later mailed me this article.

Your thoughts on this article?

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/mar/01/1b1marks21522-safe-haven-investing-gold-isnt-alway/?uniontrib#

SignOnSanDiego.com

Gail MarksJarvis
'Safe haven' of investing in gold isn't always safe

2:00 a.m. March 1, 2009

Gold is where investors go when they are scared – scared about war, scared about economic meltdowns or scared about runaway inflation.

The metal is repeatedly described as a “safe haven.” On late-night radio ads, gold hucksters try to tantalize frustrated investors with the promise of safety and riches.

But just because gold never becomes worthless doesn't mean it won't churn your insides or leave you with a sizable loss in value.

Like any other investment, the price you pay matters. Last March, with investors worried about the potential failure of Wall Street's financial goliaths, nervous investors piled into gold and the price surpassed $1,004 an ounce just before investment bank Bear Stearns failed. The day after the government stepped in to handle the collapse, however, gold started heading down. By late October, it was at $713 an ounce. What looked like a haven in March had turned into a 29 percent paper loss by October.

And when people lose 29 percent, it often feels miserable regardless of whether the loss is in stocks, bonds, gold or anything else.

Now, with gold topping $1,000 an ounce again last month before pulling back a bit, investors are asking themselves once again if they missed their opportunity to buy gold cheaply in the $700s. They wonder if they should follow the gold bugs into the metal now as some predict $2,000 an ounce or higher.

Gold bugs are the perpetual doom-and-gloomers who distrust paper money and always tout the value of gold. Their case for gold now is that with governments spending huge amounts to try to rescue their economies, inflation will run out of control in a few years and gold will be the savior as money loses value.

Outside the gold-bug circle, however, there is apprehension about the grandiose forecasts.

“We had a bubble in gold fueled by exasperation and the inability to make money in stocks,” said Brian Dolan, chief currency strategist for Gain Capital, which offers individuals the opportunity to trade gold and currencies. “Investors were hit by all the bubble sales pitches that suggested gold was a 'can't-lose proposition.' ”

Gold has fallen sharply of late as investors began to imagine the financial system ultimately stabilizing and the stock market reaching bottom.

Because it's unclear when the crisis will end, Dolan says he thinks gold will drift down to a trading range between $835 and $880, but eventually go below $700 as investors become more hopeful about stocks and bonds.

If he is correct about a downturn, gold stocks as well as gold exchange-traded funds will drift lower.

Even without a sharp downturn, Standard & Poor's metals analyst Leo Larkin last week removed his “buy” recommendations from gold stocks, such as Barrick Gold, claiming prices were high by historical standards.

Dolan says the five-year uptrend for gold will be replaced by a five-year retreat back to the $300 to $400 range that existed before this decade's surge. He sees the rally as a departure from gold's typical range.

Although gold is a hard asset and can't become worthless, it falls out of favor among investors when they become more optimistic and can earn dividends and interest in a wide range of stocks and bonds.

Psychology will influence the price of gold. If investors see governments struggle unsuccessfully to stabilize the financial system and reverse the recession, there could be another move into gold for safety. And if inflation expectations pick up, the gold rally could re-emerge.

“Governments are committing themselves to high levels of public expenditure and taking on risky assets from the private sector, while tax revenues collapse and public debt reaches record levels,” said Merrill Lynch commodity strategist Francisco Blanch. As a result “sovereign bonds are increasingly being seen as risky assets even in developed markets” and emerging market currencies “are showing a high probability” of depreciating.

Blanch expects gold to rally as investors seek alternatives to weak currencies.

Still, that doesn't mean savvy investors will flee entirely into gold as a haven. Rather, professionals tend to put small amounts of money into gold when they want a buffer in rough times. For example, William Bengen, an El Cajon financial planner, has about 3 percent of clients' portfolios invested in the SPDR Gold Trust exchange-traded fund (GLD). Most of their money, however, is in bonds backed by the U.S. government – investments that earn interest. Gail MarksJarvis is a personal finance columnist for the Chicago Tribune and author of “Saving for Retirement Without Living Like a Pauper or Winning the Lottery.” Contact her at gmarksjarvis@tribune.com .




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hugolp
03-04-2009, 02:04 AM
1) If you buy on the peak and sell on the low yes, you are going to loose money, no matter what you are dealing with. What does have to do with gold?

2) Gold picked to 1000 a year ago, and has peaked 1000 again only one year later. Tell me how long until the Dow peaks its highs again.

3) Since the dollar left the gold standar, it has lost 9% every year as average against gold. Staying on the dollar is dangerous allways, but now with the present situation even more.

4) He sais gold bugs are allways doom & gloom. Does he knows what is going arround in the world? It is not justified to be doom & gloom? Traders earn money by trading, and they allways tell you is a good time to buy, no matter what is going on in the world. If you go into gold, they loose a client. They dont like gold. Gold is nos speculative, like stocks can be.

5) He recomends buying bonds over gold. All analist are saying that bonds could crash in arround april

etc...

Traders want to sell stocks. If you go into gold, they dont sell stocks. Its bad for them. Now, gold is not without risk, like any other thing you do with your money.

Hugo

Reason
03-04-2009, 01:58 PM
Any other thoughts?

dannno
03-04-2009, 02:03 PM
Laaaame


Sorry.. I used to live in San Diego and I was one of the original visitors to the signonsandiego website. Pretty disappointed.

ArchPaul
03-04-2009, 02:19 PM
Title says it all..

"'Safe haven' of investing in gold isn't always safe"

It's not investing, it's protecting.


"Gold bugs are the perpetual doom-and-gloomers who distrust paper money and always tout the value of gold."

Funny how when people point out the truth they are doom and gloom. Lets see, count how many iterations of collapsed paper currencies that has existed, then count how many times gold has gone to zero.....



"Their case for gold now is that with governments spending huge amounts to try to rescue their economies, inflation will run out of control in a few years and gold will be the savior as money loses value."

Then let the author shit out the money. Because America doesn't have it. And Benanke is an inflationary whore!

" Standard & Poor's metals analyst Leo Larkin last week removed his “buy” recommendations from gold stocks, such as Barrick Gold, claiming prices were high by historical standards."

YEAH!!! S&P, the same smegma brained dickwads that were rating toxic CDO's and such as AAA!!! ROFLMAO!!!!

"Because it's unclear when the crisis will end, Dolan says he thinks gold will drift down to a trading range between $835 and $880, but eventually go below $700 as investors become more hopeful about stocks and bonds."

Even if you bought at $1000/oz, and it fell to $700/oz and you were forced to sell, that's 30%.
The DOW is down 50%! And hope is not an investment strategy!


But hey, goodluck with that. I'll listen to histories lessons...
and I'm sure Obama will bail him out anyways.

Epic
03-04-2009, 02:50 PM
Many people understand that gold is a good hedge against unanticipated and high levels of inflation. (though not always, see 1980-2000)

What is less understood is that in deflations (credit deflations, with our frb system) gold does well because the national debt looks even more unpayable and the debt will rise as a percentage of gdp. I predict that in 8 years (unless RP gets in office and shakes things up) then our national debt will be 2x GDP. From there forward, you get a ton of feedback factors that encourage a spiraling inflation, because you need to create new money to pay off the debts.

Recap: gold will do well in credit deflations (as it has been doing the past 2 years) because a credit deflation portends a hyperinflation many years later).

tmosley
03-04-2009, 03:21 PM
The 1980 crash in gold prices was in large part caused by Volcker's return to a strong dollar policy (raising interest rates). If he hadn't done that, the United States would have experienced either hyperinflation or hyperstagflation by the mid 1980's, and the US would have collapsed. We have returned to the monetary policy that set up that catastrophe, except that now we have such a massive debt that raising the interest rates to stop the fall of the dollar would bankrupt the government, many businesses, and probably more than half of all American consumers.

Gold is the only way to protect your savings in such an environment.

brandon
03-04-2009, 03:31 PM
Any other thoughts?


Yes.

The author makes a lot of good points, and I tend to agree with him. The resistance around 1000 seems to be firmly established, and gold's recent peak was short of its peak a year ago. The technical indicators are pointing towards a stable price in the low 900's. Then again, the price of gold could double or triple in the near future. I personally just doubt it will happen.

There is a small chance that our economy could enter a hyperinflationary period in the next several years, and as a hedge against that it is a good idea to buy a small amount of gold. By small amount, I mean a total of 2-3% of your entire net worth should be in physical gold you own, and no more. Do not view this gold as an investment or something that will make you rich. It is only a type of insurance against a worse case scenario that we will most likely never see.

newbitech
03-04-2009, 03:37 PM
as long as gold is priced in FRN and the FRN is gaining on currencies around the world then you can forget about "making money" with holding gold.

The problem anti-gold people have to understand is that people who tout gold don't do so to "make money". They aren't trying to resell at a higher FRN valuation.

The problem that gold bugs have to understand is that they are essentially betting that gold will be valued in some other currency as a standard at some time in the future.

The only way the two opinions are going to be balanced is if we all start carrying around metal currencies again and dump our floating fiat. Once that happens, then we can truly profit off of accumulating gold at lower valuations and spending it at higher valuations. When that day comes, we will be able to set the value of gold on a per transactions basis, like we do with our fiat now.

Oh and I have been hearing this argument lately.

at least you can wipe your ass with FRN, try doing that with gold.

theoakman
03-04-2009, 03:42 PM
any person that tries to make a case that gold is too high when it's at the exact same price it was 30 years ago, not adjusted for inflation is smoking something.

brandon
03-04-2009, 03:55 PM
any person that tries to make a case that gold is too high when it's at the exact same price it was 30 years ago, not adjusted for inflation is smoking something.

Why is that? Does the marginal utility for gold change with time?

hugolp
03-04-2009, 04:12 PM
Many people understand that gold is a good hedge against unanticipated and high levels of inflation. (though not always, see 1980-2000)

What is less understood is that in deflations (credit deflations, with our frb system) gold does well because the national debt looks even more unpayable and the debt will rise as a percentage of gdp. I predict that in 8 years (unless RP gets in office and shakes things up) then our national debt will be 2x GDP. From there forward, you get a ton of feedback factors that encourage a spiraling inflation, because you need to create new money to pay off the debts.

Recap: gold will do well in credit deflations (as it has been doing the past 2 years) because a credit deflation portends a hyperinflation many years later).


Do you really meant to say that you believe that inflation wont kick in util 8 years in the USA?

Hugo

ILUVRP
03-04-2009, 04:28 PM
Every market is always based on two things .:rolleyes:

Fear and Greed. :eek:

Now it is fear because of what is going to happen to the dollar, interest rates, inflation, resession, depression, two wars going on, bailouts and give aways.:mad:

I could go on , but it is not greed. ;)

scooter
03-04-2009, 06:44 PM
Gold will rise with inflation, just like any other commodity, or stocks for that matter. Based on the way it has traded since being decoupled from the dollar, it looks like it isn't all that great of an inflation hedge, as someone pointed out that its value hasn't changed at all despite tons of inflation.

Gold's demand is almost entirely driven by jewelry. So if you are buying it as an investment, you are making a play that jewelry demand will be higher in the future than it is now. It can spike and drop because it is often used by traders as a fear gauge, but it will always revert back to the demand for its actual uses.

If you are buying gold as insurance from a complete downfall, I can go along with that. But as others have said, do not buy it as an investment. It's historically a pretty bad one.

hugolp
03-05-2009, 12:53 AM
Gold's demand is almost entirely driven by jewelry. So if you are buying it as an investment, you are making a play that jewelry demand will be higher in the future than it is now.

So wrong. You need to check your sources or your concious, because one of those is very wrong:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EZMGVwURo3M/SaujPjYKd2I/AAAAAAAAAuM/bGAozkHEjN4/s1600-h/gold2%5B1%5D-714215.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EZMGVwURo3M/SaujPjYKd2I/AAAAAAAAAuM/bGAozkHEjN4/s1600-h/gold2%5B1%5D-714215.gif (edit, image direct linking doesnt seems to work, so here is the link)

Even with goverment monopoly on money, gold still remains as a monetary metal.

Hugo

ILUVRP
03-05-2009, 07:04 AM
People in America look at GOLD as jewelry .

The rest of the world looks at GOLD as money.

When the U.S. starts looking at GOLD as money it will really start soaring in value.

Reason
03-05-2009, 08:02 PM
Any other thoughts before I send these responses to my friend?

Bluewaters
03-05-2009, 08:24 PM
Bon ton roule

Politicallore
03-05-2009, 08:25 PM
Once obama makes it illegal like FDR did, we are screwed anyway.

lol

Just make sure it is held in some foreign country