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Truth Warrior
02-28-2009, 02:17 PM
Romans 13, 1 Peter, and the Proper Relationship Between the Christian and the State


Romans 13 and 1 Peter both address the relationship between Christians and human governmental authorities. While these passages are usually interpreted as "pro-government," an examination of these works by Paul and Peter, respectively, will reveal the true role human governments serve in God's divine providence, and how Christians should regard such governments.

Romans 13 and Human Government


Romans 13 is a very difficult passage to evaluate. In this portion of his letter to the church in Rome, Paul instructed Christians on the relationship between them and the Roman governmental authorities. At first glance, the passage seems to legitimize and support the actions of human governments. Elsewhere, Paul advised Christians to “study diligently to show yourself approved unto God…” (2 Timothy 2:15), and contrary to any potential first glance interpretation, the true meaning of this deceptive passage becomes clear after a brief study of the issue. The passage in question reads as follows:


Romans 13:1-10: Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God... For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.

As shown in Human Government is a Rejection of God (http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/israelking.html) and Satan is in Control of Human Governments (http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/satanownsgov.html), the Old Testament explains how human governments are a rejection of God’s government, and the New Testament often portrays human governments as under the control and influence of Satan (if these articles have not been read, it is advised to read them before proceeding).

If human governments are a rejection of God, and are controlled by the influence of Satan, why then does Paul refer to rulers as "God’s minister"? Furthermore, when Paul wrote his letter to the church in Rome, Nero had already become emperor. It is difficult to imagine Nero, who undertook a massive persecution of Christians throughout the empire, as "God’s minister." Paul certainly knew of the story of Jesus’ birth. How could Herod, the ruler who attempted to murder young Jesus, be "God’s minister"?

Paul also states that “rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.” The simple interpretation of this statement cannot be true. Paul himself was terrorized by the “governing authorities.” While in Damascus, the governor under King Aretas had the walls of the city guarded in order to arrest the apostle. In order to escape from the city, Paul had to sneak out a window in one of the city’s walls, being lowered to the ground in a basket. Paul also had to flee from authorities in Iconium and Thessalonica. In Caesarea, Paul was arrested for spreading Christian ideas, and was imprisoned for two years. Eventually, Paul met a martyr’s death when he was executed by Roman authorities. Certainly, then, these authorities were a terror to Paul’s good works.

If the Roman government persecuted Christians so ruthlessly, in what sense was it "appointed by God"? In what sense were Roman authorities "God’s ministers"? And in what sense are Christians to be "subject" to these "authorities"? The answers to these questions reveal the true message behind Paul’s letter to Rome.

Government as God’s Minister, Appointed by God

Romans 13 tells us that “there is no authority except from God.” Of course this is true. Even Satan’s authority comes from God. In order for Satan to exercise his power, even he needs the permission of God. Demonstrative of this is the story of Job. Satan desired to persecute Job, but had to ask God’s permission to do so, and God granted it. Does this mean that the persecution of Job was morally right? No, it was wrong. Satan used his power and authority, given to him by God, to persecute Job. God did not morally approve of this persecution, but allowed it to occur, because it was in line with his divine plan. God wanted Job’s faith to be tested, so God gave Satan the authority to persecute him. In other words, God “appointed” Satan to persecute Job. This does not mean that Job’s persecution was “good,” but just in line with God’s divine plan.

Throughout the Old Testament, there are numerous occurrences where this theme is extended to human governments. Although these governments are performing brutish acts, persecuting God’s people, in every instance they are described as God’s “servant” or some other term, showing that they were appointed by God to perform such violent acts.

The Egyptian Pharaoh was Appointed by God

In Exodus chapter 9, God gives the following message to the Egyptian Pharaoh:


Exodus 9:16-17: For this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you, and that my name may be declared in all the earth.

Even the Pharaoh, the ultimate villain in the Exodus story, was raised up by God. The Pharaoh in no way was consciously performing the will of God. No, the Pharaoh persecuted and enslaved the Hebrew people, but yet, in God’s divine plan, he allowed the Pharaoh to commit such acts because it led to the ultimate good of the Hebrew people, their exodus. Certainly, however, Moses was justified in challenging the Pharaoh, even though the Pharaoh was “raised up” by God. God used the Pharaoh as an instrument in his plan, but right and wrong never changes. The Pharaoh’s role was to commit such wrong actions, but it was also the role of all “good” people to condemn those same wrong actions. Just because the Pharaoh was appointed by God does not imply that his actions were justified.

The Monarch of Assyria was Appointed by God


In Isaiah chapter 10, the monarch of Assyria was described in the same fashion as the Egyptian Pharaoh:


Isaiah 10:5-7,12: Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets. But this is not what the Assyrian intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy… When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.”

In this passage, the violent Assyrian monarch is described as the rod of God’s anger. God used the Assyrian government to punish the hypocritical and ungodly nation of Israel. The Assyrian government was “appointed” to perform a number of cruel functions: “to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample (Israel) down like mud in the streets.” This does not mean that the Assyrian monarch was conscious of all this: “But this is not what the Assyrian intends, this is not what he has in mind.” Instead, the Assyrian monarch acted in his own arrogant and violent manner: “his purpose is to destroy.” The monarch was an evil person, performing evil actions, who was going to be punished for such actions: “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.” God’s will always prevails. Through his divine providence, God is able to find a way to use the evil of the Assyrian government to his purposes. In Romans 13 Paul writes that human authorities are appointed “for good.” Of course God’s will is always good. In this sense, the Assyrian government performed its evil deeds, for the ultimate good of God’s people. The Israel nation had become hypocritical and ungodly, therefore it needed correction. God used the evil Assyrian government for this purpose, doing good for the Israel nation by attempting to bring it back to God. Further using the language of Romans 13, the Assyrian government can be described as a terror to evil works: the evil works of the fallen Israel nation. Lastly, just as with the Pharaoh, although God was able to use the violence of Assyria to his ultimate purpose, this violence was not justified. All godly people of the day should have condemned the violence, and certainly should not have supported it or taken part in it.

King Nebuchadnezzar was Appointed by God


Jeremiah 25:8-12: "Because you have not listened to my words, I will summon all the peoples of the north and my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon," declares the Lord, "and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations. I will completely destroy them and make them an object of horror and scorn, and an everlasting ruin… This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation for their guilt…"

Along with this passage, two other times in the book of Jeremiah Nebuchadnezzar is referred to as God’s "servant" (27:6 and 43:10). This is strikingly similar language to Romans 13 where government authorities are described as God’s “ministers.” This is the same Nebuchadnezzar who created the golden idol, and threw Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego into the furnace for not worshiping it. How can such a man be God’s servant? In exactly the same sense that God used the Pharaoh and the monarch of Assyria. Because Israel had not listened to God, Nebuchadnezzar, like the monarch of Assyria, was used as an instrument of God’s wrath for the purposes of punishing Israel. This does not morally justify the actions of Nebuchadnezzar. His actions were wrong, and when his purpose in God’s plan had been fulfilled, God declared that he would “punish the king of Babylon and his nation for their guilt.” Therefore, describing Nebuchadnezzar as God’s servant does not mean that his actions were morally just. It only means that his sinful actions were used by God, to the fulfillment of God’s divine plan.

Human Government Appointed by God, as Explained in Romans 13

As we have seen, the Pharaoh, the Assyrian monarch, and King Nebuchadnezzar were all “appointed” by God, for the fulfillment of God’s plan. In all three instances, these governmental leaders were used as an instrument of God’s vengeance. These leaders performed cruel and sinful acts, but God was able to use them for his ultimate purpose. When Romans 13 is read in relation to Romans 12, it becomes clear that the governing authorities Paul writes of serve this same purpose. Romans 12 concludes as follows:


Romans 12:17-21: Do not repay anyone evil for evil… live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink…” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

In line with the teachings of Jesus (please read The New Testament Promotes the Absolute Love of Enemies (http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/loveenemies.html)), Paul instructed Christians to show love to their enemies. One should live at peace with all, and if wronged, should not seek vengeance, because vengeance is the Lord’s. How, then, does God exercise this vengeance that is his alone? As shown above, Paul answers this question in Romans 13:


Romans 13:4: …But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Just as the Pharaoh, the Assyrian monarch, and King Nebuchadnezzar were described, here all human governments are described in similar terms. These governments serve as God’s “avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.” Christians, on the other hand, are called upon to love their enemies and “not take revenge.” Human governments have rebelled against this divine concept. Rather than allowing this rebellion against his will to ruin his plan, God is able to use this rebellion for the fulfillment of his divine plan. Paul’s writing simply declares that divine providence overrides human rebellion against godly ways, it does not approve of such rebellion. Just as the Pharaoh, the Assyrian monarch, and King Nebuchadnezzar were to be punished for the dreadful acts, so to will all human governments. The exact details of God’s divine plan will never be completely known. All good Christians can do is to have faith in his will, and follow the instructions given through Jesus and the apostles. We have been instructed to love our enemies, not take revenge, leave vengeance with God, and overcome evil with good. Sometimes it might be difficult to follow these commandments, but we must have the attitude of Jesus on the eve of his crucifixion:


Matthew 26:39: …not as I will, but as You will.

In What Sense Should Christians be “Subject” to Human Government?

By instructing Christians to be “subject” to the state, Paul certainly could not have meant unconditional obedience. In Matthew chapter 6, Jesus states the following:


Matthew 6:24: No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other…

Christians owe absolute obedience to God. God is our master; we cannot serve another. If unconditional obedience is required from both God and the state, then Christians indeed have two masters. If the demands of the state were to contradict the teachings of Jesus, then Christians would then be forced to choose which master they served. Unconditional obedience cannot be given to both God and the state, and given the choice, of course it must be given to God.

As stated earlier, Paul constantly disobeyed governing authorities, and, because of this, he was constantly on the run. In Caesarea he was finally caught, imprisoned for two years, and eventually executed.
Paul was not the only one to disobey authorities. Acts 4-5 tells the story of the arrest of Peter and John, and their disregard of human laws. Both apostles were imprisoned by local authorities for preaching in the name of Jesus, which they had been explicitly instructed not to do. The two apostles broke out of jail, and began preaching once again. When the authorities found Peter and John, they asked:


Acts 5:28: …Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name?

The apostles, who had directly disobeyed the order given to them, answered as follows:


Acts 5:29: We ought to obey God rather than men.

The entire book of Acts, as well as the other writings in the New Testament, tells the story of how Paul, Peter, John, and the other apostles were constantly rebelling and disobeying the Roman government and local governing authorities. They were persecuted, imprisoned, and most faced a martyr’s death.

Realizing that “subject” must not mean unconditional obedience, because we have already given this to God, in what manner are we then to be “subject” to the state? One of the most common definitions of “subject” is “being in a position that places one under the power or authority of another.” In a very real sense, someone can be subject to someone else while taking part in disobedience.

As noted above, Peter, John, Paul, the other apostles, as well as Jesus himself all disregarded and disobeyed governing authorities. Yet, while disobeying, they were still under the power and authority of these human governments. Being called upon to love their enemies, violent resistance was not an option. This non-violent message was of great importance to Roman Christians. Many of the Christians in Rome were of Jewish nationality. Jews throughout the Roman Empire, having suffered centuries of persecution, were continually on the threshold of violent rebellion. In Rome, the heart of the Empire, the potential for violent disturbances certainly was great. In addition, it was approximately at this time that the Roman Emperor Nero began his immense persecution of Christians within the Empire. With this in mind, it becomes perfectly clear why Paul would urge Roman Christians to be “subject” to the governing authorities. Rather than violently opposing the government, Paul instructed these Christians to subject themselves to the persecution they were suffering. Throughout the New Testament are instances where the apostles, following Jesus' lead, set the example for later Christians regarding subjection to persecution, leading to their martyrdom. Jesus predicted this type of subjection to persecution numerous times throughout the Gospels:


Mark 13:9-13: You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them… All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


John 15:18-20: If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world… That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: “No servant is greater than his master.” If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also… John 16:2-4: They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you…
If Christians were obedient to governing authorities, there would be no reason for this persecution. Instead, Christians will often find it necessary to disobey human governments. When the governing authorities do persecute Christians, Paul advised them to be subject to these enemies. Show them love, try to convert them, but if this fails, willfully accept any punishment received, as did Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, and the other apostles. Once again, as examined above, Paul outlined the proper conduct of Christians in Romans 12:


Romans 12:17-21: Do not repay anyone evil for evil… live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink…” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

One last point concerning the term "subject": Paul urged Christians to be subject in a number of instances. One of these instances is slaves to their masters:


Titus 2:9: Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them.

This certainly does not justify slavery or the actions of any slave-owner. Just as this does not justify slavery, Romans 13 does not justify government. Slavery was an issue which Christians of the day had to deal with. Any slave who was converted to Christianity had to then answer to his master. In the passage above, Paul intended to persuade Christian slaves not to resort to violence. Realizing the immorality of slavery, it must have been tempting for slaves to fight for their freedom. The Christian religion, however, forbids this. Instead, just as with the Christian relation to governmental rulers, the slaves were instructed to show their masters love, try to convert them, and if their Christianity forces them to disobey their masters, they then must willfully accept their punishment. In short, as Paul worded it, Christian slaves must be subject to their masters.

1 Peter 2 and Human Government

In 1 Peter, the apostle Peter wrote a passage similar to Paul’s message to the Roman church:


1 Peter 2:13-14: Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong…

It must first be remembered that Peter, like Paul, constantly disobeyed the “governing authorities.” As stated above, it was Peter who, when asked why he defied the orders given to him, declared:


Acts 5:29: We ought to obey God rather than men.

In 1 Peter, Peter urged submission in the same context in which Paul did in Romans 13: submission to persecution. There is no doubt about it, Peter was writing to a persecuted church; he made this very clear.


1 Peter 1:6: In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.


1 Peter 4:12: Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 1 Peter 5:8-9: ...Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.
Peter advised this persecuted church to meet the evil they were facing with good, echoing Paul’s instructions to the church at Rome. A few verses before Peter’s call for submission, he wrote the following:


1 Peter 2:11-12: Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

It can be said that Peter cared about the image of the Christians under persecution. Although they were being persecuted, Peter wanted the “pagans” to see the good deeds of the Christians. This is a practical suggestion of how Christians, as Paul worded it in Romans 12, can “overcome evil with good.”

Following Peter’s call for submission in verses 13-14, he provided the reason for such submission in verses 15-16:


1 Peter 2:15-16: For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Peter wrote that Christians should submit themselves to governmental institutions, because if they were to violently resist, then the government would have reason to persecute them. Instead, if Christians are to do only good, the government will have no reason to persecute them. By living good lives, not using “your freedom as a cover-up for evil,” the hypocrisy of the government will be shown, and the church will “silence the ignorant talk of foolish men" (please note, Peter here referred to governmental leaders as ignorant and foolish men).

Rather than violently resisting such persecution, Christians must submit and suffer. What is inferred from Romans 12 and 13, Peter clearly explained:


1 Peter 2:19-23: For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. ...When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats…


1 Peter 3:13-17: Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed… It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 1 Peter 4:1,12-19: Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude… Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering… But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed… If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal… However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name… Those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
Conclusion

In conclusion, rather than serving as a divine justification for the existence of human government, both Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 serve as a practical guide as to how Christians should relate to the governmental authorities around them. We are told that government is God’s tool for vengeance. The problem for the Christian today is not necessarily with government per se. The problem lies with the Christian support for government, or in other words, the Christian support for vengeance. Paul instructed the church to have nothing to do with vengeance. Therefore, we should have nothing to do with government. Moses did not help the Pharaoh enslave the Hebrews. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego did not help Nebuchadnezzar enforce his idolatrous policies. Likewise, Christians should not take part in the state by holding office, nor should they give their consent or approval to the state through voting. Ignore the state; put all effort towards leading quiet lives in conformity with the teachings of Jesus (as Peter wrote). By doing this, hopefully evil will be overcome with good (as Paul wrote) and there will be no place for governmental vengeance. If this fails, however, rejoice in the fact that any suffering one is forced to endure will be suffering for doing good, just as Christ experienced (as Peter wrote). This is the Christian’s proper role in relation to human governmental authorities.


http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/romans13.html

Spider-Man
02-28-2009, 02:43 PM
Silly Protestant.

Truth Warrior
02-28-2009, 02:46 PM
Silly Protestant. What does your bible say? :)

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 11:40 AM
Bump!

jkr
03-01-2009, 12:08 PM
nodding in agreement.

Spider-Man
03-01-2009, 12:21 PM
What does your bible say? :)

What it says is one thing. What it means is another.

And for that, I typically turn to my trusty Catechism.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 12:28 PM
What it says is one thing. What it means is another.

And for that, I typically turn to my trusty Catechism. Why trust, ask and depend on human ( fallible, flawed and sinful ) "authorities" ( so called ) for what GOD meant in and by his "HOLY WORD"? While we're on the subject, what does the CHURCH ( human institution ) have to do with GOD? ESPECIALLY one created and originated by the ROMAN EMPIRE?

Thanks! :)

danberkeley
03-01-2009, 12:52 PM
TW, can I gets a summary? Can I gets a Amen!?!

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 12:57 PM
TW, can I gets a summary? Can I gets a Amen!?!

Conclusion

In conclusion, rather than serving as a divine justification for the existence of human government, both Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 serve as a practical guide as to how Christians should relate to the governmental authorities around them. We are told that government is God’s tool for vengeance. The problem for the Christian today is not necessarily with government per se. The problem lies with the Christian support for government, or in other words, the Christian support for vengeance. Paul instructed the church to have nothing to do with vengeance. Therefore, we should have nothing to do with government. Moses did not help the Pharaoh enslave the Hebrews. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego did not help Nebuchadnezzar enforce his idolatrous policies. Likewise, Christians should not take part in the state by holding office, nor should they give their consent or approval to the state through voting. Ignore the state; put all effort towards leading quiet lives in conformity with the teachings of Jesus (as Peter wrote). By doing this, hopefully evil will be overcome with good (as Paul wrote) and there will be no place for governmental vengeance. If this fails, however, rejoice in the fact that any suffering one is forced to endure will be suffering for doing good, just as Christ experienced (as Peter wrote). This is the Christian’s proper role in relation to human governmental authorities.

If you'd settle for a non-Christian amen, then AMEN! :)

Thanks! ;)

Spider-Man
03-01-2009, 01:07 PM
Why trust, ask and depend on human ( fallible, flawed and sinful ) "authorities" ( so called ) for what GOD meant in and by his "HOLY WORD"? While we're on the subject, what does the CHURCH ( human institution ) have to do with GOD? ESPECIALLY one created and originated by the ROMAN EMPIRE?

Thanks! :)

Summary of Doctrine on the Church

"I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" (Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, A.D. 325, 381).

The Catholic Church is a single, unified, visible society, instituted by Jesus Christ in order to carry on His saving mission after His Ascension into heaven. Thus, the Church is endowed by Our Lord with everything necessary to accomplish this mission. First, Jesus gave the Church the authority to teach in his name, thus guaranteeing the truth of Her teaching. Second, he gave Her, in the Mass and the Sacraments, the means to sanctify men and draw them closer to God. Third, he gave Her the authority to rule and govern all men in those matters which pertain to salvation.

These powers were given by Jesus not to all the members of the Church individually, but rather to certain men, the Apostles, whom He chose especially to rule His Church. The apostles were united under the supreme authority of Simon Peter, whom Jesus chose to be the visible head of the Church on earth. The Apostles and their successors, the bishops, united under Peter and his successors, the Popes, have exercised this authority continuously since the time of Christ.

The Church is called Catholic because it is spread throughout the world, from end to end of the earth; also because it teaches universally and completely all the doctrines which man should know concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it subjects to right worship all mankind, rulers and ruled, lettered and unlettered; further because it treats and heals universally every sort of sin committed by soul and body, and it possesses in itself every conceivable virtue, whether in deeds, words or in spiritual gifts of every kind (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. XVIII, 23).

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 01:09 PM
Jesus!
He bring the whole together!
(submit to his will or you will be force to!)

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 01:12 PM
Jesus!
He bring the whole together!
(submit to his will or you will be force to!)

Must Christians Follow The Teachings Of Jesus? (http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/commandments.html)

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 01:13 PM
Must Christians Follow The Teachings Of Jesus? (http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/commandments.html)

Do we even know what his teachings really were?
As far as I know, he didn't write anything down... and neither did the people following him.

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 01:15 PM
I couldn't imagine the guy going around throwing rocks at *****s either.
Nor do I see him backing a political candidate or any political agenda...
Nor starting a PAC to enforce tyrannical laws on groups of people that didn't fit his ideas.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 01:15 PM
Summary of Doctrine on the Church

"I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" (Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, A.D. 325, 381).

The Catholic Church is a single, unified, visible society, instituted by Jesus Christ in order to carry on His saving mission after His Ascension into heaven. Thus, the Church is endowed by Our Lord with everything necessary to accomplish this mission. First, Jesus gave the Church the authority to teach in his name, thus guaranteeing the truth of Her teaching. Second, he gave Her, in the Mass and the Sacraments, the means to sanctify men and draw them closer to God. Third, he gave Her the authority to rule and govern all men in those matters which pertain to salvation.

These powers were given by Jesus not to all the members of the Church individually, but rather to certain men, the Apostles, whom He chose especially to rule His Church. The apostles were united under the supreme authority of Simon Peter, whom Jesus chose to be the visible head of the Church on earth. The Apostles and their successors, the bishops, united under Peter and his successors, the Popes, have exercised this authority continuously since the time of Christ.

The Church is called Catholic because it is spread throughout the world, from end to end of the earth; also because it teaches universally and completely all the doctrines which man should know concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it subjects to right worship all mankind, rulers and ruled, lettered and unlettered; further because it treats and heals universally every sort of sin committed by soul and body, and it possesses in itself every conceivable virtue, whether in deeds, words or in spiritual gifts of every kind (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. XVIII, 23).

Interesting! Thank you.

Now how about those three simple and specific questions that I asked you?

:)

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 01:22 PM
Do we even know what his teachings really were?
As far as I know, he didn't write anything down... and neither did the people following him. All that's there is all that's there. I really have no way of really knowing other than this book I've got.

Many call and claim it's the "HOLY WORD OF GOD". :confused:

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 01:24 PM
All that's there is all that's there. I really have no way of really knowing other than this book I've got.

Many call and claim it's the "HOLY WORD OF GOD". :confused:

Is your world ruled by popular opinion?
If the 'new testament' is the holy word of god. Everyone on this forum has offending their maker.
Even the ones who think they are 'saved'.

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 01:30 PM
Many claim Obama is "the one". Maybe he's the new christ.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 01:31 PM
Is your world ruled by popular opinion?
If the 'new testament' is the holy word of god. Everyone on this forum has offending their maker.
Even the ones who think they are 'saved'. I believe that could be argued both ways depending on the level being observed.

That would seem to be true.

That would seem to be true.

Satan Is In Control Of Human Governments (http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/satanownsgov.html)

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 01:35 PM
Many claim Obama is "the one". Maybe he's the new christ. Ask me again AFTER the tribulation, but only if I'm still here, one way or another. ;)

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 01:36 PM
Ask me again AFTER the tribulation, but only if I'm still here, one way or another. ;)

my point is... its all supposition.
Its one man telling another man what God thinks.
Inherently dishonest <IMHO>

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 01:42 PM
my point is... its all supposition.
Its one man telling another man what God thinks.
Inherently dishonest <IMHO> Theocrat and several others here would vociferously and vehemently beg to differ and disagree with you there.<IMHO>

BTW, congrats on LOSING the pentagram avatar. :D

danberkeley
03-01-2009, 01:45 PM
Conclusion

In conclusion, rather than serving as a divine justification for the existence of human government, both Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 serve as a practical guide as to how Christians should relate to the governmental authorities around them. We are told that government is God’s tool for vengeance. The problem for the Christian today is not necessarily with government per se. The problem lies with the Christian support for government, or in other words, the Christian support for vengeance. Paul instructed the church to have nothing to do with vengeance. Therefore, we should have nothing to do with government. Moses did not help the Pharaoh enslave the Hebrews. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego did not help Nebuchadnezzar enforce his idolatrous policies. Likewise, Christians should not take part in the state by holding office, nor should they give their consent or approval to the state through voting. Ignore the state; put all effort towards leading quiet lives in conformity with the teachings of Jesus (as Peter wrote). By doing this, hopefully evil will be overcome with good (as Paul wrote) and there will be no place for governmental vengeance. If this fails, however, rejoice in the fact that any suffering one is forced to endure will be suffering for doing good, just as Christ experienced (as Peter wrote). This is the Christian’s proper role in relation to human governmental authorities.

If you'd settle for a non-Christian amen, then AMEN! :)

Thanks! ;)

So the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Woohoo! So why don't clergymen preach this to their flocks?

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 01:49 PM
Theocrat and several others here would vociferously and vehemently beg to differ and disagree with you there.<IMHO>

BTW, congrats on LOSING the pentagram avatar. :D

My avatar compliments yours. BG.

This is where theocrat and others live in a fairy tale world.

You have almight God. Can do anything. Knows everything... etc.
A being powerful enough to create the universe(supposedly).

He wants to communicate with us...
what does he do?

He doesn't just communicate with us... he doesn't make his very important message clear to everyone.
He (supposedly) encrypts his thoughts in a tome, and then only sanctions certain people to tell us what he was really saying.

What is wrong with the above scenario?

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 01:54 PM
So the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Woohoo! So why don't clergymen preach this to their flocks?

Perhaps just because STATIST ministers are just somewhat "different" than libertarian ministers, with "different" agendas. I'm just guessing here. ;) :)

heavenlyboy34
03-01-2009, 01:54 PM
My avatar compliments yours. BG.

This is where theocrat and others live in a fairy tale world.

You have almight God. Can do anything. Knows everything... etc.
A being powerful enough to create the universe(supposedly).

He wants to communicate with us...
what does he do?

He doesn't just communicate with us... he doesn't make his very important message clear to everyone.
He (supposedly) encrypts his thoughts in a tome, and then only sanctions certain people to tell us what he was really saying.

What is wrong with the above scenario?

Blind constitution worshipers often run into a similar problem. ;)

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 02:00 PM
My avatar compliments yours. BG.

This is where theocrat and others live in a fairy tale world.

You have almight God. Can do anything. Knows everything... etc.
A being powerful enough to create the universe(supposedly).

He wants to communicate with us...
what does he do?

He doesn't just communicate with us... he doesn't make his very important message clear to everyone.
He (supposedly) encrypts his thoughts in a tome, and then only sanctions certain people to tell us what he was really saying.

What is wrong with the above scenario? His game, his reasons and rules, I guess. ;) Who really knows? :confused:

I don't presume to scan God. I'm just not QUITE THAT arrogant. :)

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 02:17 PM
Blind constitution worshipers often run into a similar problem. ;)

What, as in, we don't know who wrote the constitution?
The constitution gets its authority from an invisible man in the sky?
It is so cryptic, the common man can't understand its plan language?
There are over 2000 denomination devoted to worshiping it?

Kind of a stretch, but I guess if it fits your agenda...

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 02:19 PM
His game, his reasons and rules, I guess. ;) Who really knows? :confused:

I don't presume to scan God. I'm just not QUITE THAT arrogant. :)

My scenario has two possible explanations.

God see us as pawns to toy with... ie, he has made a fun lil' game out of being enigmatic.. watching us as we kill each other over him.
Or he hasn't communicated with us...

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 02:27 PM
My scenario has two possible explanations.

God see us as pawns to toy with... ie, he has made a fun lil' game out of being enigmatic.. watching us as we kill each other over him.
Or he hasn't communicated with us...

I'm currently pretty fond of Feynman's point of view and perspective.

"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama." -- (1959), quoted by James Gleick in Genius: The Life and Science of Richard Feynman (1992)

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 02:29 PM
I'm currently pretty fond of Feynman's point of view and perspective.

"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama." -- (1959), quoted by James Gleick in Genius: The Life and Science of Richard Feynman (1992)

I have the same perspective.
And once you've reached that point... the snake oil and 'sacred tomes' look like man-made theater.

Spider-Man
03-01-2009, 02:33 PM
Interesting! Thank you.

Now how about those three simple and specific questions that I asked you?


Why trust, ask and depend on human ( fallible, flawed and sinful ) "authorities" ( so called ) for what GOD meant in and by his "HOLY WORD"?

Already addressed.


While we're on the subject, what does the CHURCH ( human institution ) have to do with GOD?

Already addressed.


ESPECIALLY one created and originated by the ROMAN EMPIRE?

Dismissed on the following basis: misleading and irrelevant.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 02:33 PM
I have the same perspective.
And once you've reached that point... the snake oil and 'sacred tomes' look like man-made theater. I just keep on asking the Christians for the hand written certifed, and verified documentation, and sadly just keep on getting, what seems to me, to be the same old run-arounds. :(

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 02:40 PM
Already addressed.

No, it wasn't. Not looking for "addressed", looking for answered.

Already addressed.

No it wasn't. Not looking for "addressed", looking for answered.

Dismissed on the following basis: misleading and irrelevant.

A misleading and irrelevant question? :confused:



Thanks for the same old run-around AKA NOTHING. :p

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 02:40 PM
I just keep on asking the Christians for the hand written certifed, and verified documentation, and sadly just keep on getting, what seems to me, to be the same old run-arounds. :(

Ask someone to prove where the tortoise and hare raced... you'd get the run-around too.
Since its just a story... all people would be able to do is point to the text.. and say, see... this is the truth.
And if they believe... (socialized from birth to believe) that these are the words of the divine... They will shut you off and become very angry that you question them.

They must believe that facts are not important when it comes to religion.. though, as Jordan Maxwell ask... if your life depends on it... how important is it for you to know the truth?

american.swan
03-01-2009, 02:44 PM
What does your bible say? :)

I didn't read the whole post, due to time constraints and I'm impatient, but your conclusion bothers me. Have nothing to do with government? I find this, as is with most Bible studies, out of context. God instituted the Jewish nation and set up judges over the land, yet you tell us we shouldn't be judges because their part of government. Joseph in Egypt was virtually sole ruler of the nation for a time and what about Daniel, who was set up above the princes of the land?

I have to disagree with your conclusion.

Now I need to go read the rest of the thread.

american.swan
03-01-2009, 02:51 PM
Summary of Doctrine on the Church

"I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" (Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, A.D. 325, 381).

The Catholic Church is a single, unified, visible society, instituted by Jesus Christ in order to carry on His saving mission after His Ascension into heaven. Thus, the Church is endowed by Our Lord with everything necessary to accomplish this mission. First, Jesus gave the Church the authority to teach in his name, thus guaranteeing the truth of Her teaching. Second, he gave Her, in the Mass and the Sacraments, the means to sanctify men and draw them closer to God. Third, he gave Her the authority to rule and govern all men in those matters which pertain to salvation.

These powers were given by Jesus not to all the members of the Church individually, but rather to certain men, the Apostles, whom He chose especially to rule His Church. The apostles were united under the supreme authority of Simon Peter, whom Jesus chose to be the visible head of the Church on earth. The Apostles and their successors, the bishops, united under Peter and his successors, the Popes, have exercised this authority continuously since the time of Christ.

The Church is called Catholic because it is spread throughout the world, from end to end of the earth; also because it teaches universally and completely all the doctrines which man should know concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it subjects to right worship all mankind, rulers and ruled, lettered and unlettered; further because it treats and heals universally every sort of sin committed by soul and body, and it possesses in itself every conceivable virtue, whether in deeds, words or in spiritual gifts of every kind (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. XVIII, 23).

Your quote should be studied over and over. Why? Because it's clear from your quote that the CHURCH of Rome believes itself to be Jesus or God, which to me is beyond my understanding. As wonderful as Catholics are, their CHURCH's position is wrong in my opinion. I don't even like using the NIV Bible because of this. The CHURCH is not a Protestants friend. Be warned.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 02:51 PM
I didn't read the whole post, due to time constraints and I'm impatient, but your conclusion bothers me. Have nothing to do with government? I find this, as is with most Bible studies, out of context. God instituted the Jewish nation and set up judges over the land, yet you tell us we shouldn't be judges because their part of government. Joseph in Egypt was virtually sole ruler of the nation for a time and what about Daniel, who was set up above the princes of the land?

I have to disagree with your conclusion.

Now I need to go read the rest of the thread.
Only when you get the time:

Human Government Is A Rejection Of God (http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/israelking.html)

You may want to consider tackling the OP, in it's entirety, again too. It's not really THAT long.<IMHO> Just a thought. :)

Thanks!

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 03:07 PM
Ask someone to prove where the tortoise and hare raced... you'd get the run-around too.
Since its just a story... all people would be able to do is point to the text.. and say, see... this is the truth.
And if they believe... (socialized from birth to believe) that these are the words of the divine... They will shut you off and become very angry that you question them.

They must believe that facts are not important when it comes to religion.. though, as Jordan Maxwell ask... if your life depends on it... how important is it for you to know the truth? No, they usually just explain that it's just a human fable. I can understand that. Isn't that one of Aesop's, BTW?

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 03:12 PM
No, they usually just explain that it's just a human fable. I can understand that. Isn't that one of Aesop's, BTW?

I was using the example, hypothetically.
If you didn't know that.. you aren't as smart as I give you credit for...

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 03:17 PM
I was using the example, hypothetically.
If you didn't know that.. you aren't as smart as I give you credit for... I dislike hypotheticals INTENSELY, and reject them out of hand. :p What if this, what if that? Who cares? :rolleyes:

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 03:19 PM
I dislike hypotheticals INTENSELY, and reject them out of hand. :p What if this, what if that? Who cares? :rolleyes:

Not a what if...
They are both stories. Bible and fables.
The what if comes in with- people worship the fable like they do the bible.
Note- they worship the bible is a key phrase.

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 03:21 PM
Sci-fi shows do the same thing to help tackle sensitive issues by putting the circumstance in a different setting.
I was answering your post. I was showing you why you get the run-around.
Take the info, or remain ignorant. THat is your choice.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 03:26 PM
Not a what if...
They are both stories. Bible and fables.
The what if comes in with- people worship the fable like they do the bible.
Note- they worship the bible is a key phrase. And of course you have the proof? That's pretty arrogant too.<IMHO> Proving a negative of that scale is damned near impossible, as I understand it. ;)

Is the cosmos bound, limited and constrained by **** sapiens logic, reason and science in any way?

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 03:28 PM
Sci-fi shows do the same thing to help tackle sensitive issues by putting the circumstance in a different setting.
I was answering your post. I was showing you why you get the run-around.
Take the info, or remain ignorant. THat is your choice. I categorically reject your bogus dualistic attitude and false dichotomy. :p

TER
03-01-2009, 03:45 PM
I just keep on asking the Christians for the hand written certifed, and verified documentation, and sadly just keep on getting, what seems to me, to be the same old run-arounds. :(

Hand written certified and verified documentation? You mean, like a notarized letter? This is the closest you'll get:

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 34 A.D.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed with a halberd in 60 A.D.
* James the Just, beaten to death with a club after being crucified and stoned.
* Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
* Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified.
* Saint Mark was dragged in the streets until his death
* Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
* Saint Jude was crucified.
* Saint Bartholomew flayed alive and crucified.
* Thomas the Apostle was killed with a spear.
* Luke the Evangelist was hung.
* Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D.

The list above are people who lived with Christ, broke bread with Him, and witnessed His resurrection. They did not verify their beliefs with written documentation, but with their lives. Some people consider that a greater testimony.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 04:38 PM
Hand written certified and verified documentation? You mean, like a notarized letter? This is the closest you'll get:

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 34 A.D.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed with a halberd in 60 A.D.
* James the Just, beaten to death with a club after being crucified and stoned.
* Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
* Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified.
* Saint Mark was dragged in the streets until his death
* Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
* Saint Jude was crucified.
* Saint Bartholomew flayed alive and crucified.
* Thomas the Apostle was killed with a spear.
* Luke the Evangelist was hung.
* Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D.

The list above are people who lived with Christ, broke bread with Him, and witnessed His resurrection. They did not verify their beliefs with written documentation, but with their lives. Some people consider that a greater testimony. Actually, I mean in God's handwriting. ;) Thanks for the info though, any non-humans in that list? :) Lot's gave their lives for Hitler, Stalin and Mao, etc. too, so I tend to be kinda unimpressed.

Sorry.

TER
03-01-2009, 04:53 PM
Actually, I mean in God's handwriting. ;) Thanks for the info though, any non-humans in that list? :) Lot's gave their lives for Hitler, Stalin and Mao, etc. too, so I tend to be kinda unimpressed.

Sorry.

No need to apologize. I am not insulted by your lack of understanding. Rather, I worry about you.

Those people listed above were humans, so I don't understand you statement about any 'non-humans'. They gave witness and testimony with their lives. And if you knew anything about them, you would know they didn't do so to impress you.

Many people gave their lives for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. etc. and by doing so they proved that they believed in Hitler's message, and Stalin's ideology, and Mao's philosophy. Likewise, the Apostles who gave their lives did so to prove they believed they beheld the Risen Christ, the Resurrected Lord. So your post above does nothing but support my initial observation, that no greater human testimony exists than to give your life for it, whether for good or bad.

TER
03-01-2009, 04:56 PM
Tell me, if Jesus Christ appeared to you one night in your room, would you believe?

TurtleBurger
03-01-2009, 05:11 PM
Thanks TW, I like to collect articles like this one. Being both a Christian and an anarchist, I get a lot of Bible quotations from other Christians like Romans 13 and the "Render unto Caesar" passage. To me the whole "spirit" of the Bible would discourage people from supporting an organization like the State that intrinsically depends on murder and theft for its activities. Obviously Paul himself was beheaded for not "submitting to the civil authorities", so there had to be a lot more to his statement than the simplest interpretation suggests.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 06:09 PM
No need to apologize. I am not insulted by your lack of understanding. Rather, I worry about you.

Those people listed above were humans, so I don't understand you statement about any 'non-humans'. They gave witness and testimony with their lives. And if you knew anything about them, you would know they didn't do so to impress you.

Many people gave their lives for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. etc. and by doing so they proved that they believed in Hitler's message, and Stalin's ideology, and Mao's philosophy. Likewise, the Apostles who gave their lives did so to prove they believed they beheld the Risen Christ, the Resurrected Lord. So your post above does nothing but support my initial observation, that no greater human testimony exists than to give your life for it, whether for good or bad.

The issue is/was the "HOLY WORD OF GOD", whom I don't presume to scan, as a human being. ;)

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 06:11 PM
Tell me, if Jesus Christ appeared to you one night in your room, would you believe? Don't get me wrong, I REALLY like Jesus, much more than a LOT of the "Christians" I know do. :(

( Pssst, just between us, in my mid to late teens I was on a minister career path. Finally, the massive inconsistencies, hypocrisy and contradictions between the religion/church and Jesus just became too much. I chose Jesus, and left the church. I'm now still an Ex-Christian. Don't tell anyone, OK? :) )

Now just about anything "institutionalized" just tends to REALLY give me the willys and the creeps. :eek:

;)


"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

american.swan
03-01-2009, 06:41 PM
Only when you get the time:

Human Government Is A Rejection Of God (http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/israelking.html)

You may want to consider tackling the OP, in it's entirety, again too. It's not really THAT long.<IMHO> Just a thought. :)

Thanks!

Now your telling me that Daniel and Joseph were rejecting God. Oh my. See we wouldn't be in this mess if people like Daniel and Joseph were running the show, but NO!! Christians decided Daniel and Joseph were somehow rejecting God and now we have NEW WORLD ORDER to worry about. The mess we're in is a direct result of "Christian" laziness. God never intended for his people to be walked on and/or poor.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 06:48 PM
Thanks TW, I like to collect articles like this one. Being both a Christian and an anarchist, I get a lot of Bible quotations from other Christians like Romans 13 and the "Render unto Caesar" passage. To me the whole "spirit" of the Bible would discourage people from supporting an organization like the State that intrinsically depends on murder and theft for its activities. Obviously Paul himself was beheaded for not "submitting to the civil authorities", so there had to be a lot more to his statement than the simplest interpretation suggests.

You're welcome! :)

I found both of these through LRC, I think it was.

http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/ (http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/)

http://www.hccentral.com/eller12/ (http://www.hccentral.com/eller12/)

Enjoy! ;)

TurtleBurger
03-01-2009, 06:56 PM
Now your telling me that Daniel and Joseph were rejecting God. Oh my. See we wouldn't be in this mess if people like Daniel and Joseph were running the show, but NO!! Christians decided Daniel and Joseph were somehow rejecting God and now we have NEW WORLD ORDER to worry about. The mess we're in is a direct result of "Christian" laziness. God never intended for his people to be walked on and/or poor.

I read an analysis of the story of Joseph that hypothesized that the authoritarian/communist strategy implemented by Joseph actually caused the famine that he was trying to alleviate. It's just a theory, but it's interesting to think about.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 06:56 PM
Now your telling me that Daniel and Joseph were rejecting God. Oh my. See we wouldn't be in this mess if people like Daniel and Joseph were running the show, but NO!! Christians decided Daniel and Joseph were somehow rejecting God and now we have NEW WORLD ORDER to worry about. The mess we're in is a direct result of "Christian" laziness. God never intended for his people to be walked on and/or poor.

I not telling you anything, just posting some articles and links for some hopefully intelligent discussions. :) What does your bible say?

Josephus and the Origin of the State (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/horn2.html)

Thanks!

TER
03-01-2009, 07:50 PM
Don't get me wrong, I REALLY like Jesus, much more than a LOT of the "Christians" I know do. :(

( Pssst, just between us, in my mid to late teens I was on a minister career path. Finally, the massive inconsistencies, hypocrisy and contradictions between the religion/church and Jesus just became too much. I chose Jesus, and left the church. I'm now still an Ex-Christian. Don't tell anyone, OK? :) )

Now just about anything "institutionalized" just tends to REALLY give me the willys and the creeps. :eek:

;)


"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

Perhaps you just needed to search harder.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 07:56 PM
Perhaps you just needed to search harder. What for? Less searching would have been much easier and more comfortable. Everywhere I've searched only produced just MORE reconfirmations. :p :( :( :(

TER
03-01-2009, 08:00 PM
What for?

The Christian response would be eternal peace and joy.


Less searching would have been much easier and more comfortable. Everywhere I've searched only produced just MORE reconfirmations. :p :( :( :(

Again, perhaps you need to search harder.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 08:05 PM
The Christian response would be eternal peace and joy.



Again, perhaps you need to search harder. I'm getting along quite nicely WITHOUT a church.<IMHO> I don't think you understood my post. :( It's NOT about eternal peace and joy, it's about TRUTH.

TER
03-01-2009, 08:10 PM
I'm getting along quite nicely WITHOUT a church.<IMHO> I don't think you understood my post. :( It's NOT about eternal peace and joy, it's about TRUTH.


Yes, truth, of course! And through truth, peace and joy! The Truth will set us free!

However, you keep thinking Truth is a 'what'. That is your first and biggest mistake.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 08:13 PM
Yes, truth, of course! And through truth, peace and joy! The Truth will set us free!

However, you keep thinking Truth is a 'what'. That is your first and biggest mistake.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make ye free" .... but first it will really tick ye off.

Save your proselytizing, you're just wasting your time. ;) Clean up the "Christians", then we'll talk.

Thanks anyway. :)

TER
03-01-2009, 08:16 PM
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make ye free" .... but first it will really tick ye off.

Save your proselytizing, you're just wasting your time. ;)

Thanks anyway. :)

1. "but first it will really tick ye off?" Sorry, you lost you me there. Eternal life in peace and joy sounds pretty good to me. Or perhaps you feel you deserve better?

2. It is you who are wasting time.

3. Your welcome.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 08:18 PM
1. "but first it will really tick ye off?" Sorry, you lost you me there. Eternal life in peace and joy sounds pretty good to me. Or perhaps you feel you deserve better?

2. It is you who are wasting time.

3. Your welcome.

Clean up the "Christians", then we'll talk. ;)

TER
03-01-2009, 08:20 PM
Clean up the "Christians", then we'll talk. ;)

I am. First I'll begin with those who once called themselves Christians and are too embarrassed to call themselves as such now.

mellamojuana
03-01-2009, 08:23 PM
I'm worn out after reading thus far! Wow, some great searching here!

I have to jump in and ask how Joseph caused a famine. Is that a little like saying the weatherwoman (come on, smile!) caused a snowstorm? Sometimes, the earth does not produce--seasons, drought, freezes, destructive hail, floods. . . .

The Hebrew and Christian scriptures aren't particularly coded or filled with puzzles, except in that we are two thousand years or more away from the writing of many of them. Imagine some poor doofus trying to make sense of Ron Paul Forums, or C4L, or Restore the Republic, or We the People, etc., etc., in the year 4000+ CE. We are not trying to write in code; we just understand each other (well, ok, a little). Same with the people of faith who shared their religious and spiritual experiences of God (Yahweh, Shekinah, El Shaddai, etc.) hundreds of years ago. God wasn't writing with the intention of confusing people; rather, people years ago were writing to share their faith and their experiences of God, just as we do to share ours, or to share our ideas for liberty, or to share our frustrations with human gov'ts. Hello! Whatever. imho. :D

Bottom line for me: I believe the Great Spirit, God, Alpha/Omega, whatever name we want to give to the Ultimate Good, Divine Spirit, or Deity, loves us passionately and unfailingly.

God isn't a man in the sky. That is just our limited, anthropomorphic image of God.
The often-used, children's prayer of blessing of food sums it up better than I can: God is great. God is good.

Scripture also says God is love. The scary part is that we are expected to love our enemies and do good to those who spitefully use us. :eek:

Caramba.

Selah.

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 08:26 PM
Love is world-wide genocide via flood.
Love is the burning of entire cities.
Love is plague and pestilence.
God is Love.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 08:28 PM
I am. First I'll begin with those who once called themselves Christians and are too embarrassed to call themselves as such now. Move on to your next candidate, they may be easier to resell. I'm about more than 40 years on down this path. ;) The "Christians" ( in name only ) provides you with a MUCH wider and deeper potential candidate pool.<IMHO> :(

TER
03-01-2009, 08:30 PM
Love is world-wide genocide via flood.
Love is the burning of entire cities.
Love is plague and pestilence.
God is Love.

You bring up tragedies and destruction to show off how much you know when in fact you know very little my brother. If you understood Who Jesus Christ is, than you wouldn't be asking questions that He already answered.

If we sinners loved than there would be none of the things you mentioned above.

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 08:31 PM
You bring up tragedies and destruction to show off how much you know when in fact you know very little my brother. If you understood Who Jesus Christ is, than you wouldn't be asking questions that He already answered.

If we sinners loved than there would be none of the things you mentioned above.

Meaning, God only loves us when we obey.

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 08:31 PM
I don't destroy or kill someone or something I love.

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 08:32 PM
And you don't want to get into a biblical debate with me. I will wipe the floor with you.

TER
03-01-2009, 08:34 PM
Move on to your next candidate, they may be easier to resell. I'm about more than 40 years on down this path. ;)


The late comers will get the same reward as those who labored from the morning. This is the Lord's teachings and is marvelous in our eyes.


The "Christians" ( in name only ) provides you with a MUCH wider and deeper potential candidate pool.<IMHO> :(

Yes, but the prodigal's return brings more joy to the Father and more reason to celebrate.

TER
03-01-2009, 08:34 PM
Meaning, God only loves us when we obey.

Wrong. God loves always. Can you say the same about yourself?

TurtleBurger
03-01-2009, 08:35 PM
I'm worn out after reading thus far! Wow, some great searching here!

I have to jump in and ask how Joseph caused a famine. Is that a little like saying the weatherwoman (come on, smile!) caused a snowstorm? Sometimes, the earth does not produce--seasons, drought, freezes, destructive hail, floods. . . .


Like I said, it's just a hypothesis, but a very reasonable one in my opinion. Joseph's solution to the 7-year-in-the-future famine involved seizing a large portion of the crops of the country. That kind of intervention can drastically affect the behavior of farmers, either making them overplant their fields so they can afford to pay their share or getting out of the farming business altogether. Then after the famine actually hit, Joseph nationalized the entire agricultural industry in Egypt, and as we can see from 20th century communist history, the government generally does a very poor job in managing collectivized farms. In general, Joseph's policies were very Keynesian, and inevitably led to a business cycle "bust", and since the Egyptian economy was almost entirely agricultural, the result was a really nasty famine.

TER
03-01-2009, 08:36 PM
I don't destroy or kill someone or something I love.

You have never made one thing appear in this world other than your bright ideas. Your idea of love is small.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 08:36 PM
Can we expect to get back to and on the thread topic and OP anytime soon? :D

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 08:37 PM
You have never made one thing appear in this world other than your bright ideas. Your idea of love is small.

Then love for god must be a pain much bigger than 100 million screaming humans as they die in the flood.
Your idea of god is small.

TER
03-01-2009, 08:37 PM
Can we expect to get back to and on the thread topic and OP anytime soon? :D

I thought you loved shameless bumps :D

TER
03-01-2009, 08:38 PM
Then love for god must be a pain much bigger than 100 million screaming humans as they die in the flood.
Your idea of god is small.

Wrong again. When you grow up a little, than we can talk about deeper things, as you still need more to learn about in this life.

TurtleBurger
03-01-2009, 08:39 PM
Then love for god must be a pain much bigger than 100 million screaming humans as they die in the flood.
Your idea of god is small.

Everyone dies eventually. Why does it make it any worse that it all happened at the same time?

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 08:39 PM
Wrong. God loves always. Can you say the same about yourself?

He loves you so much he'd send you to hell if you don't obey.
Such grace.
Are you one of the 144,000?
I'm sure you are... front row seats because you worship the bible. :rolleyes:

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 08:39 PM
Everyone dies eventually. Why does it make it any worse that it all happened at the same time?

Because it was God's wrath not a natural cycle.
Wrath = Love?

TER
03-01-2009, 08:40 PM
He loves you so much he'd send you to hell if you don't obey.
Such grace.
Are you one of the 144,000?
I'm sure you are... front row seats because you worship the bible. :rolleyes:

You CHOOSE hell. WAKE UP!

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 08:40 PM
Jesus didn't follow the bible, why should you?

torchbearer
03-01-2009, 08:41 PM
You CHOOSE hell. WAKE UP!

You don't get to choose heaven. God decides for you.
You aren't the judge. Wake UP!

I'm going to hell with Ghandi because we don't believe in your bible.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 08:42 PM
I thought you loved shameless bumps :D I do, but ON TOPIC ones are much better and more interesting.<IMHO> :D Don't get me started on the NEED for bumps. ;)

TER
03-01-2009, 08:45 PM
You don't get to choose heaven. God decides for you.
You aren't the judge. Wake UP!

Really? Is this your understanding? You don't choose to believe in Him? To follow Him? Are you a pre-programmed robot? You have no free will?


I'm going to hell with Ghandi because we don't believe in your bible.

I wouldn't presume to know Ghandi's heart, but I think it was better than mine or yours.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 08:48 PM
"Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth." --Mohandas K. Gandhi

:D

TER
03-01-2009, 08:55 PM
"Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth." --Mohandas K. Gandhi

:D

Gandhi knew shades of the Truth more than most non-Christians (and many 'Christians' as well). He unfortunately also failed to understand that Truth is not a 'what' but a 'Who'. Does that mean he will not enter the Lord's Kingdom? Of course not. His willingness to accept the Truth when He shall be standing in front of him will determine much.

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 09:04 PM
Can we expect to get back to and on the thread topic and OP anytime soon? :D

Truth Warrior
03-01-2009, 09:30 PM
nodding in agreement. Thank you. ;) :)

idiom
06-08-2009, 06:47 PM
Another long thread on Romans 13 that never discusses Ehud?

Todd
09-28-2010, 07:54 AM
Rights, Liberties, and Romans 13 (http://www.lewrockwell.com/green-p/green-p11.1.html)
by Paul Green



For centuries the book of Romans, chapter 13, has been used to extinguish the flames of liberty. It has been misused to such an extent in fact, that it has become the favourite passage of dictators.

When the State couldn’t beat early Christianity it decided to join in. Soon the floors of Roman tax collection offices had Romans 13 inscribed, and slaughter in the name of Christ began. Hitler also used the passage, claiming that churches should take care of heavenly matters, leaving earthly matters to him. More recently, Mugabe’s totalitarian government shamelessly played the Romans 13 card.

The Christian Right are using it right now, to exempt the State from basic laws like "Though shalt not kill" – making it fine to slaughter the innocent in wars around the world. (See "If God is Pro-War – He Lied")

At the same time, the Christian Left continue using it to exempt the State from basic laws like "Though shalt not steal" – making it alright for the State to take all it wants and pretend tax avoiders and evaders are the thieves and cheats.

God Plus Country, King, Queen, Government?

Whenever, in the minds of Christians, kingdoms of this earth are merged into the Kingdom of God (see "The Exclusive Kingdom of God"); inevitably their faith is compromised in favour of the earthly government’s will and doctrine:

Faith in God’s provision is minimised, faith in the State’s provision maximised.

Faith in God’s created authority is limited, faith in State authority extended.

Christian activity becomes influencing and expanding State activity, rather than supplanting it.

Reverence in church services is shared with the agents of the government and the flags and symbolism of the State. Governments have even created their own national churches.

But the Gospel of the Kingdom of God – as Jesus taught it – completely excludes the State, undermining it not temporarily, through superficial force of arms, but at its foundation in the hearts of men. That is why the enemies of Jesus and the early church were primarily the agents, allies or beneficiaries of the State – local, national, and later empire-wide.

The early Christians were well aware that ancient Israel was established by God without any earthly government and continued that way for 450 years afterwards – not in chaos, but under the civil Law, judges and natural family elders.

In line with this, the attitude of Jesus toward government and officialdom was made absolutely clear:

"The rulers of the ungodly lord it over them, and their officials are called ‘benefactors’.... but it shall not be so among you."

Obviously, words like this are not going to go down well with any government and so their allies have preferred to focus upon those scriptures that deal with practical instruction for living under pagan governments. Inevitably, practical instruction is reinterpreted to mean total submission and obedience – the only limit on government authority being the imagination of officials. Other scriptures like Romans 13, upholding proper authority, have been redefined to glorify State supremacy.

Added to the rise of undisguised secular politics worship, the modern state apparatus in Christian countries is built upon the acceptance of approved interpretations of two main scriptures: "Render unto Caesar" (Matt 22, Mark 12, Luke 20) and Romans 13.

I think rendering to Caesar is very well taken care of with precision and detail by Jeffrey F. Barr’s recent article – but to sum up my own understanding here:

The objective was to turn Jesus over to the governor – who would hardly object if Jesus taught a moral obligation to pay any and all taxes. Jesus taught no such thing. Instead, He showed them a denarius, inscribed and deifying Caesar as "theou huios" – "son of the god." The answer as to how much is Caesar’s and how much is God’s therefore depends entirely on the faith of the hearer. Jesus’ words were an invitation to choose allegiance.

In private, Jesus’ instruction to His disciples on tax was plain and direct:

"the sons are free... nevertheless, lest we offend them... give it to them."

The message of this article is the same – children of the only true King are free from any moral obligation to the State. Nevertheless (and thankfully) the Gospel does not mandate open physical resistance in the face of a tax demand – just pay up and live to fight another day.

Romans 13 – The Totalitarian Version

article continued at link

newyearsrevolution08
09-28-2010, 08:17 AM
You CHOOSE hell. WAKE UP!

HAHA

bible thumpers telling people to WAKE UP is like a democrat teaching us how to limit government.

Sola_Fide
09-28-2010, 08:19 AM
Rights, Liberties, and Romans 13 (http://www.lewrockwell.com/green-p/green-p11.1.html)
by Paul Green




article continued at link


Good article. The Statists have tried to change the meaning of Romans 13 for centuries.

erowe1
09-28-2010, 08:23 AM
If the 'new testament' is the holy word of god. Everyone on this forum has offending their maker.
Even the ones who think they are 'saved'.

Correct.

I suppose that fact goes a long way toward explaining why so many people reject Jesus. The implications of accepting him as Lord do not stroke their self-esteems.

But if it's true that we all offend our maker, then isn't it better to admit it than to deny it?

erowe1
09-28-2010, 08:26 AM
By the way, I haven't read the OP yet, because of its length. But for those who are interested in what I think is a good treatment of Romans 13, I recommend the approach taken by John Cobin in these books:
http://www.policyofliberty.net/books5.php
http://www.policyofliberty.net/books3.php

Unfortunately, I don't know of an online source I can recommend.