Liberals are amazing.

[cska80]

A quick little conversation with my friend. He stopped responding after the last sentence. I love how liberals cannot defend, rationalize, or understand their own philosophy. They just feel it. Every time we get into a discussion where I challenge his beliefs, it always ends the same way.

Me (1:57:31 PM): by the way, why dont you have faith in god?
Him (1:58:04 PM): cuz faith is a foreign concept to me
Him (1:58:07 PM): faith in anything, really
Him (1:58:11 PM): i just don't...get it
Me (1:58:13 PM): then why do you have faith in government?
Him (1:58:16 PM): i dont
Me (1:58:27 PM): dont you believe in socialized medicine?
Him (1:58:47 PM): it seems, based on the avail evidence, to be a good approach
Him (1:58:48 PM): thats all
Him (1:58:52 PM): im open to other ideas
Him (1:58:55 PM): i dont have "faith"
Me (1:59:01 PM): yes you do
Him (1:59:05 PM): haha
Himl (1:59:05 PM): okay
Me (1:59:08 PM): you have faith in government to have good intentions
Me (1:59:11 PM): and to do a good job
Him (1:59:12 PM): nope
Him (1:59:14 PM): nope
Me (1:59:23 PM): then why would you hand them the power of health care?
Him (1:59:40 PM): because i think theyll do a better job than profit hungry corps
Him (1:59:48 PM): i dont have faith
Me (1:59:53 PM): who created the "profit hungry" corps?
Me (2:00:08 PM): it was government in the first place
Me (2:00:23 PM): you cannot have a monopoly without government protection
Me (2:01:01 PM): if you look at government intervention into healthcare on a scale, compared to the price of healthcare
Me (2:01:08 PM): you see prices rise as government takes more power
Me (2:01:43 PM): government takes away competition, creating a monopoly, taking away downward pressure and other market forces
Me (2:02:14 PM): and the supply always stays the same, while demand rises
Me (2:02:25 PM): thats why every socialized system always resorts to rationing
Him (2:02:48 PM): i support rationing
Him (2:02:57 PM): too many people us too many resources
Him (2:03:01 PM): the world is fucked
Me (2:03:06 PM): in a free market, resources are unlimited
Him (2:03:12 PM): riiiiiiiiight
Me (2:03:17 PM): ill give you an example
Me (2:03:24 PM): what is the most free sector of the world economy?
Him (2:03:35 PM): dunno
Me (2:03:41 PM): technology, electronics, computers, etc.
Me (2:03:46 PM): what happens to it every year? quality goes up. what happens to prices? they go down. why?
Me (2:04:35 PM): see you've never even been exposed to free markets before
Me (2:04:43 PM): you've only been given the example of bush
Me (2:04:45 PM): reagan
Me (2:06:13 PM): name something that a socialist, communist, or marxist society has invented in the past 200 years of experimentation that has increased the standard of living of the human race.

[heavenlyboy34]

Yep. All statists are the same way, with a little variation. Just look at how they bend logic into pretzels to defend the state in the various RPF threads. ;) lolz.

[zach]

oo nice. i'll have to use these points myself. :D

[dannno]

I'd say the reason technology, electronics, computers, etc. is the most free market sector of the economy is because most people in our government don't know where to begin to understand it. When they do try to understand, they come up with really dumb laws like not being able to create a fake online profile or some unenforceable nonsense.

[Kludge]

"Me (2:03:06 PM): in a free market, resources are unlimited"

Uhhhh... You understand that free markets work because resources AREN'T unlimited, right?

[cska80]

I'd say the reason technology, electronics, computers, etc. is the most free market sector of the economy is because most people in our government don't know where to begin to understand it. When they do try to understand, they come up with really dumb laws like not being able to create a fake online profile or some unenforceable nonsense.

I think it's because everyone loves technology, especially those in government who'd like to use it against us...and they also realize that government intervention destroys innovation and industry so they leave it alone for their own benefit.

[cska80]

"Me (2:03:06 PM): in a free market, resources are unlimited"

Uhhhh... You understand that free markets work because resources AREN'T unlimited, right?

Which resource has Man run out of?

[Danke]

Which resource has Man run out of?

Dodo bird meat?

[Kludge]

Which resource has Man run out of?

The green $ shirts I picked up at shirt.woot. It isn't being sold because they couldn't justify putting too-scarce resources into its production.

Have you never taken an economics course???

[hillertexas]

Dodo bird meat?

lol

[cska80]

I'm just asking a simple question. I wasn't being a smartass either. Which resource has Man run out of?

Economics course? That's as bad as the people we rail against. So, I'm supposed to listen to CNBC commentators if they've taken economic courses?

[Kludge]

I'm just asking a simple question. I wasn't being a smartass either. Which resource has Man run out of?

I gave you a serious answer. We've run out of green $ shirts, dodo bird meat (good one, Danke!), and 150 mb. IDE drives manufactured in 1998, among other resources. If resources were unlimited, capitalism wouldn't work, because we wouldn't be able to value anything since everything is worthless. Land would be free, water would be free, wood would be free.


Hey -- good news! Once we get Capitalism in Brazil, we won't need to ration tree harvesting anymore! The Invisible Hand will replant them for us. Just say "Charge It" to OPEC -- no more concern over Hubbert's Peak. If we just had Capitalism, all would be solved. We'd live on clouds as unicorn-people bring us sugary snacks (but we don't need to worry because the Invisible Hand gives us unlimited insulin)!

[Kludge]

Economics course? That's as bad as the people we rail against.

I was being serious. Even most history classes (in the case that you never took an econ. course) cover supply, demand, and scarce resources.


So, I'm supposed to listen to CNBC commentators if they've taken economic courses?

Uhhhh, no, but I bet they all know that resources are limited.

[Danke]

Water is free, but people pay more for it than gasoline!

[RCA]

I didn't even read it yet, but I can tell you that's my brother and Dad SPOT on.

[Kludge]

Water is free

Depends where the water is...

[thasre]

It's not the case that RESOURCES are unlimited in a free market society... but INNOVATION is unlimited, unlike in statist regimes which maintain the status quo. So I think the point itself remains valid... resources are scarce, but what you can do with scarce resources is unlimited.

[paulitics]

A quick little conversation with my friend. He stopped responding after the last sentence. I love how liberals cannot defend, rationalize, or understand their own philosophy. They just feel it. Every time we get into a discussion where I challenge his beliefs, it always ends the same way.

Me (1:57:31 PM): by the way, why dont you have faith in god?
Him (1:58:04 PM): cuz faith is a foreign concept to me
Him (1:58:07 PM): faith in anything, really
Him (1:58:11 PM): i just don't...get it
Me (1:58:13 PM): then why do you have faith in government?
Him (1:58:16 PM): i dont
Me (1:58:27 PM): dont you believe in socialized medicine?
Him (1:58:47 PM): it seems, based on the avail evidence, to be a good approach
Him (1:58:48 PM): thats all
Him (1:58:52 PM): im open to other ideas
Him (1:58:55 PM): i dont have "faith"
Me (1:59:01 PM): yes you do
Him (1:59:05 PM): haha
Himl (1:59:05 PM): okay
Me (1:59:08 PM): you have faith in government to have good intentions
Me (1:59:11 PM): and to do a good job
Him (1:59:12 PM): nope
Him (1:59:14 PM): nope
Me (1:59:23 PM): then why would you hand them the power of health care?
Him (1:59:40 PM): because i think theyll do a better job than profit hungry corps
Him (1:59:48 PM): i dont have faith
Me (1:59:53 PM): who created the "profit hungry" corps?
Me (2:00:08 PM): it was government in the first place
Me (2:00:23 PM): you cannot have a monopoly without government protection
Me (2:01:01 PM): if you look at government intervention into healthcare on a scale, compared to the price of healthcare
Me (2:01:08 PM): you see prices rise as government takes more power
Me (2:01:43 PM): government takes away competition, creating a monopoly, taking away downward pressure and other market forces
Me (2:02:14 PM): and the supply always stays the same, while demand rises
Me (2:02:25 PM): thats why every socialized system always resorts to rationing
Him (2:02:48 PM): i support rationing
Him (2:02:57 PM): too many people us too many resources
Him (2:03:01 PM): the world is fucked
Me (2:03:06 PM): in a free market, resources are unlimited
Him (2:03:12 PM): riiiiiiiiight
Me (2:03:17 PM): ill give you an example
Me (2:03:24 PM): what is the most free sector of the world economy?
Him (2:03:35 PM): dunno
Me (2:03:41 PM): technology, electronics, computers, etc.
Me (2:03:46 PM): what happens to it every year? quality goes up. what happens to prices? they go down. why?
Me (2:04:35 PM): see you've never even been exposed to free markets before
Me (2:04:43 PM): you've only been given the example of bush
Me (2:04:45 PM): reagan
Me (2:06:13 PM): name something that a socialist, communist, or marxist society has invented in the past 200 years of experimentation that has increased the standard of living of the human race.

Damn good job. I bet he is "educated" too, right?

[Danke]

Depends where the water is...

I live in Minnesota. :D:p

[CUnknown]

Playing devil's advocate,

Single-payer healthcare does have a lot of advantages over the system we have now, which I think everyone agrees is broken. Single-payer has been shown to work in countries like Canada, France, England, etc. They rank higher on the WHO health reports than the US, for example.

There are perhaps some things not to like in such a system, but there is certainly a lot of evidence that shows it is better than the system we have now. Your friend probably wasn't taking it "on faith" after all.

Regarding tech and computer prices constantly going down... this happens, not because these sectors of the economy are somehow more "free" than other sectors, but because ... it's tech and computers. As the tech advances, the power of the device goes up and the cost of old devices goes down. It wouldn't be an advance otherwise. Would you really pay $2000 for an 8088 twin-floppy computer these days? Of course not... the price has to come down as new devices are put into production.

The other sectors of the economy are equally as free, its just that they are not making the technological advances that computers are, and so their prices tend to go up over time due to inflation. Computer prices go up with inflation as well, it's just the advances they are making are so astounding that the price actually drops year after year. Once we acheive maximal computing power (if ever), then the price of that computer would go up year after year due to inflation, it wouldn't continue to drop.

[Nate K]

The other sectors of the economy are equally as free, its just that they are not making the technological advances that computers are, and so their prices tend to go up over time due to inflation. Computer prices go up with inflation as well, it's just the advances they are making are so astounding that the price actually drops year after year. Once we acheive maximal computing power (if ever), then the price of that computer would go up year after year due to inflation, it wouldn't continue to drop.

Regulation does not yield innovation. The reason health care is so expensive is because the monopolized few have destroyed their COMPETITION through REGULATION and LAWS.

The alternative health community that exists practically underground is still steadily advancing, but no where near where it would be if we could rip the shackles off.

Competition lowers prices. It's competition, competition, competition.

[nbhadja]

Liberalism is a disease. A destruction terrible disease.

[CUnknown]

Regulation does not yield innovation. The reason health care is so expensive is because the monopolized few have destroyed their COMPETITION through REGULATION and LAWS.

The alternative health community that exists practically underground is still steadily advancing, but no where near where it would be if we could rip the shackles off.

Competition lowers prices. It's competition, competition, competition.

Single-payer health care is much cheaper than the system we have now, and everyone is covered. The only drawback is longer lines.

[Nate K]

Single-payer health care is much cheaper than the system we have now, and everyone is covered. The only drawback is longer lines.

Obviously. Not too convenient when you have a broken arm or heart condition. There are consequences for everything; an inefficient, dysfunctional system is one of them for what you're playing devil's advocate.

[nbhadja]

Single-payer health care is much cheaper than the system we have now, and everyone is covered. The only drawback is longer lines.

Grades
System we have now- 10% F
Universal Healthcare- 25% F
Freemarket system- 100% A+

[angelatc]

Single-payer health care is much cheaper than the system we have now, and everyone is covered. The only drawback is longer lines.

I don't believe that single-payer health care in America will be cheaper if the government is involved.

The cheapest health care would evolve if and only if the government stopped subsidizing it.

[angelatc]

Grades
System we have now- 10% F
Universal Healthcare- 25% F
Freemarket system- 100% A+

What's this "we" nonsense? I rate my care a solid A+ all across the board.

[GBurr]

Even if you have evidence to support your beliefs you are still putting faith ion the evidence.

When you sit on a chair you have faith that it will hold you up. You have evidence that it will hold you such as precedent and knowledge of physics, but you are still putting faith in the fact that the evidence to support the chair hasn't changed.

It is impossible without getting further evidence for you to know if your friends secretly filed through the legs to play some sort of practical joke. By the way that would be pretty funny.

My point is that you can never be totally 100 percent sure of anything. You can only gain evidence to make you more sure.

[Kludge]

Even if you have evidence to support your beliefs you are still putting faith ion the evidence.

When you sit on a chair you have faith that it will hold you up. You have evidence that it will hold you such as precedent and knowledge of physics, but you are still putting faith in the fact that the evidence to support the chair hasn't changed.

It is impossible without getting further evidence for you to know if your friends secretly filed through the legs to play some sort of practical joke.

Ha! :D

[Natalie]

One time I was arguing with a liberal and he said we needed a one world government. I just stopped arguing after that. :rolleyes:

[Mahkato]

If you liked csk80's conversation, check this one out (http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/5589/facebookconvdx2.png).

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[nbhadja]

What's this "we" nonsense? I rate my care a solid A+ all across the board.

But your care now is bad compared to what it would be in a free market system. I guarantee you would get higher quality lower price healthcare in a free market system.

Our healthcare system is socialized right now- the government controls almost 70% of all medical spending. 100% would be a fully socialized system, 0% would be a free market system.

[CUnknown]

I am just curious. Since modern medicine is heavily based on all of this cheaper technology... well lets omit that part since you cite inflation which is a thread in itself.

Since modern medicine is heavily based on all of this more advanced, more efficient technology which they argue saves more lives, improves efficiency, and reduces costs when they spend the money on it... how come it gets more expensive. Haven't digitalizing records has not drastically reduced administration costs? More advanced equipment that saves more lives, is more accurate, and more efficient reduced liability costs? Doesn't having more automation reduce staffing requirements? Does smaller technology not allow for better use of space? I haven't even gotten into the effects technology has on the educational side and the equation which should reduce liability costs as well.

Yes, I believe you are correct. Heathcare in this country is totally screwed up, it shouldn't be getting so much more expensive. However, in general, it seems that technology would mostly just increase quality of care, not as much reduce its cost. Because those devices are all very expensive. Just a minor point, I mostly agree with you.