View Full Version : Confederate Flag
Reason
02-26-2009, 01:35 AM
http://lefteyeonthemedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/confederate_flag.jpg
So I got into a debate with a friend about the confederate flag.
He was saying that the "majority" of people who fly the flag, wear it on clothes or show it in one way or another DO fit the stereotype of being generally ignorant or misusing it in his opinion to represent pro slavery and anti federal govt. sentiments.
I was arguing that while there are a decent amount of people that fall into that category the strong majority of people that I have met that show the flag usually have an extended family tie to someone who fought for the confederacy or just want to show a sort of non specific southern pride.
Thoughts?
Doktor_Jeep
02-26-2009, 01:40 AM
You taking a survey?
Why does this have to be in the bearing arms forum or is that the intention?
"Oh they won't give up their guns because they are racists".
I won't take the bait.
Reason
02-26-2009, 01:53 AM
Didn't mean to post this in the bearing arms thread, please move to general.
nate895
02-26-2009, 02:09 AM
I don't display it in my avatars on almost all my sites because I am racist. I am anti-Federal Gov't. however, like many of those who proudly fly the Confederate Flag.
BTW, going to this forum and asking about the Confederate Flag might lead you to a couple of anti-flag responses, but most believe it is not a symbol of slavery.
rmodel65
02-26-2009, 02:32 AM
I live in south GA, i have Black Friends who fly the flag and wear dixie outfitters clothes :P
it is history no more no less, to some it represents hatred, to me id say it represents the death of state sovereignty
raiha
02-26-2009, 02:40 AM
I'm not a Southerner but i have the Confederate Battle Flag on a big ole chest in the kitchen with other Confederate bits and pieces including a big picture of Gen'l Lee and one of Jeb Stuart. And i have one of Nathan Bedford Forrest under my bed. Some people have reds under their bed. NB Forrest is waiting for me to have enough money to frame him. Someone in Harper's Ferry gave me a hard tack biscuit that no weevil can infiltrate.:cool:
Kludge
02-26-2009, 05:26 AM
1) Celebrating heritage is complete bunk. Reject evil deeds instead of glorifying them by flying a flag. Who cares if your ancestors (who you had NO influence on and have nothing to be proud about) killed others in a war? Frankly, the soldiers with sense deserted.
2) The Confederate flag does not, in any way, symbolize states' rights. The Confederacy often violated states' (and individuals' -- outside of slavery) during the Civil War.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/32525.html
I also suggest "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen, which is fantastic for a host of other unrelated reasons.
xd9fan
02-26-2009, 06:06 AM
Dont tread on me....is where we are headed.
pcosmar
02-26-2009, 08:39 AM
I'm a Yankee, born and raised I was taught in school(government school) the it was all about slavery and that Lincoln was a great hero.
Having done a little more research I have found that this is simply not true.
I'm not a racist, never have been.
I am thinking of getting a Rebel Flag. It seems to Symbolize my own feelings much better than the flag that the present Government flies.
constituent
02-26-2009, 08:43 AM
hell, not everyone can afford a golden calf you know.
Toureg89
02-26-2009, 11:08 AM
[IMG]
He was saying that the "majority" of people who fly the flag, wear it on clothes or show it in one way or another DO fit the stereotype of being generally ignorant or misusing it in his opinion to represent pro slavery and anti federal govt. sentiments.?
if the confederate flag stands for racism because the South fought for slavery,
then the american flag stands for racism since the North didnt care about slavery, as well as was unwilling to give blacks all the the rights whites enjoyed at the time.
black in the north were free from slavery, but not free from oppression of their rights.
raiha
02-26-2009, 12:44 PM
Yeah and Lincoln wanted to send the freedmen to Liberia (which was no longer home, where they did not speak the language, where they did not know anyone) most likely because he was scared they might marry Illinois white girls. The North bought all the slave ships and ran most of them. New York was built on the ill gotten slave returns. New England was full of acres of looms. The war was because all that lovely cotton money would have gone to the South if she seceded. Straight from New Orleans to Europe, NOT calling in to New York or Boston. And the hypocrite Lincoln and the Yankees, in the history they 'spun', made themselves out to be sanctimonious abolitionists whilst the Southerners were evil racists.
Well the 'spin' shure worked. Had me fooled!
And don't get me started on "Reconstruction!"
dr. hfn
02-26-2009, 02:02 PM
http://lefteyeonthemedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/confederate_flag.jpg
So I got into a debate with a friend about the confederate flag.
He was saying that the "majority" of people who fly the flag, wear it on clothes or show it in one way or another DO fit the stereotype of being generally ignorant or misusing it in his opinion to represent pro slavery and anti federal govt. sentiments.
I was arguing that while there are a decent amount of people that fall into that category the strong majority of people that I have met that show the flag usually have an extended family tie to someone who fought for the confederacy or just want to show a sort of non specific southern pride.
Thoughts?
people are allowed to think what they want. period. The Confederate flag represents the South who was fighting for the same thing our FFs and the American Revolutionaries were
jdmyprez_deo_vindice
02-26-2009, 02:18 PM
Well I guess I could fit both categories. My ancestors fought for the Confederacy and I am awfully proud of that which is why I fly a first national pattern flag outside of my home. I also display the battle flag/ cross of St. Andrew on my truck and have many Confederate relics in my home. It is both a statement of pride and a statement of belief that the south was right. So while I do not trust the Federal government, I also do it out of a connection with the Confederacy.
ChaosControl
02-26-2009, 02:31 PM
and anti federal govt. sentiments.
Is there supposed to be something wrong with these kind of sentiments? Heck, if those were the only things people saw when they saw the flag and the ignorant majority didn't conclude it was about racial issues, I'd fly one along side a U.S. flag.
I have strong anti-federal government sentiments and I say so proudly.
Mini-Me
02-26-2009, 02:31 PM
I've never really liked the Confederate Flag, but that's just my personal opinion. The Confederates were not the "good guys" of the Civil War. There was no good side! On the one hand, the Union went to war because the tyrant in charge believed in the supremacy of the US government in all matters (epic fail with respect to human freedom). The Confederates believed in secession and states' rights - which is ordinarily a good thing - but the fact they wanted to treat human beings as slaves and property was one of the biggest reasons that states' rights were even contested in the first place (epic fail with respect to human freedom). There's no point cheering in a fight between two tyrannical governments.
The Confederate Flag means a lot of things to a lot of people, and I can't really presume what reasons each person might have for flying it...but to me, the flag's association with slavery - the antithesis of liberty - kind of puts a damper on its association with secession, decentralization of power, and rebelliousness. I wouldn't feel right flying it.
Kludge
02-26-2009, 02:45 PM
if the confederate flag stands for racism because the South fought for slavery,
then the american flag stands for racism since the North didnt care about slavery, as well as was unwilling to give blacks all the the rights whites enjoyed at the time.
A good point. Lincoln didn't know how to tackle slavery. Though I don't think he was as racist as some of his predecessors (Jefferson included), he did indeed show racism in some of his speeches and writings (such as his desire to ship Africans back to Africa). He abolished slavery because it was politically expedient and committed an incredible amount of atrocities against his citizen (though the Confederacy did, as well). That said, I doubt the Northern armies cared whether abolishing slavery was a good political move for Lincoln and truly wanted to free Blacks and reunite the country as a free, equal, and secure nation. The South had no purpose except to protect their selfish ways of trampling on the rights of others to secure and build their own wealth.
It isn't uncommon. The United States has had a disgusting history of racism and other discrimination (recall earlier US treatment of Chinese, Irish, and Japanese). Nativism is still popular.
nate895
02-26-2009, 03:25 PM
Is the Confederate Flag a racist and hateful flag?
For many years, we in the Confederate Movement have been hearing the following,” the Confederate flag is a flag of hate and racism.” The opponents of this flag seem to hit a cord with the public, convincing them that we in this movement are some how racists and should be shund. I would like to counter their charges; I think you will be very surprised to learn what I have to tell you. For those of us in this movement, the Confederate flag is not a racist flag. Nor is it a flag of hate, it is the flag of our country, The Confederate States of America.
Charge # 1: “ The Klan flies the Confederate Flag.”
This is not entirely true. The main stream Klan does not fly the Confederate flag, only one or two Chapters fly the flag; and then they are not in the main stream. These chapters, have broken away from the regular Klan. By mainstream I mean, the one that has the most members. The flag that the Klan flies on a regular basis is the U.S. flag. The two chapters that fly the Confederate flag, are in Ohio and New York, both Yankee states. The Leader of the Klan has even sent out a memo not to fly the Confederate flag, it seems they don’t want to be associated with the flag; which is just fine with us Confederates.
Charge # 2: the Nazi’s also uses The Confederate Flag.
This is almost laughable, in all the Nazi rallies, I have never seen the Confederate flag used at all. The Nazi’s don’t use the Confederate flag, for the following reasons:
1. The modern day Nazi’s, or Neo-Nazis, still follow the teachings of Adolf Hitler.
2. Hitler outlawed the Confederate Flag in 1935; he understood what the Confederate Flag meant. His Government was a totalitarian and Centralist Government, The Confederate Flag stands for States rights and a non-Centralist form Government. I was reading a book that a friend gave me, it was the story of a Wilhelm Bucher. Mr. Bucher’s Great, Great Grandfather fought for the Confederacy. After the war, the elder Mr. Bucher went back to Germany. When Wilhelm Bucher flew his Confederate flag outside his Berlin House in 1936, the nazi’s S.A., (or Storm Troopers) came and took it down. They informed him that it was illegal for him to fly that flag. Not to be undaunted, he had two other Confederate flags. He then flew the First National Confederate Flag.
This time, the S.S. came for him. He was sent to Bergen Belsin, (this was before it became a Concentration Camp) for a period of two years. When he was released, he went home flew his third and last Confederate Flag. The Gestapo came for him this time, they took him to Gestapo Headquarters and shot him in Jan. 1939. So if it is the Flag flown by the Nazi’s some one hasn’t told them of the ban Hitler put on the Confederate flag.
Charge #3: The Confederate Flag flew over Slavery.
While this is true, the same can be said of the u.S. Flag. The u.S. Flag flew over slavery a full 70 years before the Confederate States of America came into existence. The Confederate Flag never flew over the Ships that brought the slaves over here. To top it all off, the Confederate States of America freed her slaves in 1863*; the Federal Union didn’t do it until 1868^ with the passage of the 13th amendment.
The Confederate flag was a more egalitarian flag than the Federal flag, in that it had integrated troops within its army. In the Federal army, the black troops served in their own divisions and served under white officers. These troopers saw very little combat; they mostly served in servile roles, serving mostly as laborers and personal servants to the white officers.
The Confederate Army used Blacks both as Soldiers and laborers, there were those white officers in the Confederate Army that had personal servants, but this was not the norm. The Black Soldiers in the Confederate Army were paid the same rate as the White Soldier, they were paid more If they served as laborers. Plus if the Black Confederate soldiers found any Northern weapons or equipment, they could sell them to the Confederate Army for about twice what they were worth on the open market.
Charge # 4: The Confederate Flag is an anti-Christian Flag.
This Charge again is laughable, The Confederate Flag is a Christian Flag.
In the picture above, you will notice the third National Confederate Flag. It is the last flag that the Confederate Congress voted into existence in 1864.
The X that you see in the upper left hand part of the Flag, is called the Cross of St. Andrews. This an off shoot of the Scottish National flag, a non-racial flag. For those who don’t know who St. Andrew was, he was a Follower of our lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To the best of my knowledge, he lived about 70 years after Christ was Crucified. He was slated to die by crucifixion by the Romans, for his witness for the Lord. As most early Christians, he did not feel worthy to die on the same cross as our lord. St. Peter, for example, was crucified on an upside down cross. St. Andrew requested to be Crucified on a perverted cross as well, an X. That is how the Second and Third National, along with the Battle Canton came into existence.
Charge # 5: The Confederate Flag is Anti-Jewish.
Again, no it is not. Many Jews served under this flag not only as soldiers, but also as high officials. One of the most prominent Confederate Jews, was Judah P. Benjamin. Mr. Benjamin was not only the Secretary of State and the Secretary of War for the Confederate States of America, but also the Attorney General as well. He also enjoyed the coveted role of person advisor to C.S.A. President Jefferson Davis, a position that any Gentile would love to have. There were other prominent Jews in the Confederate States of America, too many for me to list in this paper. There is even a Jewish Prayer for the Confederacy, Read it below.
Shemang Yisroel, Ad-nay El-hainoo, Ad-noy Achod!
Oh G-d of the Universe! Although unworthy through my manifestold transgressions, I approach the seat of thy mercy, to crave thy favor, and to seek thy protection. I supplicate thy forgiveness, O most merciful Father, for the many transgressions and the oft repeated disobedience, which cause Thee to command destruction over me. Behold me now, O my Father, supplicating Thy protection! Thou who art near when all other aid faileth! O spare me, guard me from the evil that is impending!
This once happy country is inflamed by the fury of war; a menacing enemy is arrayed against the rights, liberties and freedom of this, our Confederacy; the ambition of this enemy has dissolved fraternal love, and the hand of fraternity has been broken asunder by the hands of those, who sit now in council and meditate our chastisement, with the chastisement of scorpions. Our firesides are threatened; the foe is before us, with the declared intention to desecrate our soil, to murder our people, and to deprive us of the glorious inheritance which was left to us by the immortal fathers of this once great Republic.
Here I stand now with many thousands of the sons of the sunny South, to face the foe, to drive him back, and to defend our natural rights. O Lord, G-d of Israel, be with me in the hot season of the contending strife; protect and bless me with health and courage to bear cheerfully the hardships of war.
O L-rd, Ruler of Nations, destroy the power of our enemies! "Grant not the longings of the wicked; suffer not his wicked device to succeed, lest the exalt themselves. Selah. as for the heads of those that encompass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them. Let burning coals be cast upon them; let them be thrown into the fire, into deep pits, that they rise not up again." (Psalm 140). Be unto the Army of this confederacy, as thou were of old, unto us, thy chosen people— Inspire them with patriotism! Give them when marching to meet, or, overtake the enemy, the wings of the eagle— in the camp be Thou their watch and ward— and in the battle, strike for them, O Almighty G-d of Israel, as thou didst strike for thy people on the plains of Canaan—guide them O L-rd of Battles, into the paths of victory, guard them from the shaft and missile of the enemy. Grant that they may ever advance to wage battle, and battle in thy name to win! Grant that not a standard be ever lowered among them! O L-rd, G-d, Father, be thou with us!
Give unto the officers of the Army and of the Navy of the Confederate States, enterprise, fortitude and undaunted courage; teach them the ways of war and the winning of victory. Guard and preserve, O L-rd, the President of the Confederate States and all officers, who have the welfare of the country truly at heart. Bless all my fellow-citizens, and guard them against sickness and famine! May they prosper and increase!
Hear me further, O L-rd, when I pray to Thee for those on earth, dearest to my heart. O bless my father, mother, brothers and sisters. (if married: my wife and children.) O bless them all with earthly and heavenly good! May they always look up to Thee, and may they find in Thee their trust and strength.
O L-rd, be with me always. Show me the way I have to go, to be prepared to meet Thee here and hereafter.
My hope, my faith, my strength are in Thee, O L-rd, my G-d, forever— in Thee is my trust. "For thy salvation do I hope, O L-rd! I hope for Thy salvation, O L-rd! O L-rd, for Thy salvation do I hope!" Amen! Amen!
Shemang Yisroel, Ad-noy El-hainoo, Ad-noy Achod!
This prayer clearly shows the Jewish Connection to the Confederacy, one that the public is not supposed to know.
Charge # 6: The Confederate Flag is Anti-Native American.
This is also a lie, spread by the likes of the N.A.A.C.P. and the other racist Yankee groups. There were Tribes that allied themselves to the Confederate States of America, they also fought for them under the Stars and Bars. These tribes were: the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, Seminole and Muskogee. They fought under the Confederate Banner, they even had a Cherokee General lead them; his name was General Stand Waitie. Further it was not under the Confederate Flag that the Native American culture was nearly annihilated, it was under the u.S Flag that happened. It was under the u.S. flag that over 3,000,000 Native Americans were massacred, from 1865 to 1911, (this includes all of the tribes, both North and South following the war of Northern aggression).
Now you might be wondering at this point, why you have been told these lies. The reason is simple, to stop you from questioning the Federal Union Empire. The Confederate States of America was the last true Constitutional Republic on this Continent, the kind envisioned by the Founding Fathers in 1781 and 1787.
To be perfectly honest it was not the South that rebelled, it was the North under the Socialist President Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln rebelled against and overthrew the Government that was given to us in 1787, the South tried to maintain that Government by leaving the Union; when the Presidential Election of 1860 was stolen by the newly formed Republican Party.
I hope I have given you the proof that you need, to make an informed decision regarding the truth about the Confederate Flag.
Thank you,
Charles Goodson
Chairman Southern Parties of the Southwest
*This fact is false, The Confederate government did, however, pass a law in March 1865 that provided for the gradual emancipation of all slaves should 300,000 black slaves join the Confederate Army, which they were well on there way to doing by the time the Confederacy was fully occupied. Also, Davis sent over a proposal to the European governments to emancipate the slaves in early 1864.
^This fact is also false, the 13th amendment passed in late 1865. However, there was debate as to whether New Jersey's "Apprentices for Life" constituted involuntary servitude. The "Apprentices for Life" all died before it was fully determined.
constituent
02-26-2009, 03:44 PM
The United States has had a disgusting history of racism and other discrimination (recall earlier US treatment of Chinese, Irish, and Japanese). Nativism is still popular.
just b/c you might find it of interest:
http://www.news8austin.com/content/community/neighborhood_news/default.asp?AC=True&action=view&TableID=15053
^they use the conservative figure of 15K Germans interned during WWII... this exhibit doesn't even address internment during WWI (far greater in fact, many German settlements were themselves made into isolation camps where the public use of the German language--for many, their only language--was prohibited w/ penalties ranging from imprisonment and forced labor to death in some extreme cases... though that was more about deputized hot-heads than any sort of institutional murder scheme).
anyway, just some food for thought.
RedStripe
02-26-2009, 03:49 PM
http://www.anarchistnews.org/files/pictures/black_flag.jpg
tonesforjonesbones
02-26-2009, 07:52 PM
The Stars and Bars symbolizes Heratige ..not hate. tones
Kludge
02-26-2009, 07:55 PM
http://www.nccoastonline.com/NIE/images/nazi-flag.jpg
My dead ancestors fought in WWII as Nazis.
Praise Jesus -- and Heritage -- and my Ancestors, for having fought on behalf of terrible causes!
nate895
02-26-2009, 09:43 PM
http://www.nccoastonline.com/NIE/images/nazi-flag.jpg
My dead ancestors fought in WWII as Nazis.
Praise Jesus -- and Heritage -- and my Ancestors, for having fought on behalf of terrible causes!
As mentioned previously, the Confederate Flag was banned by the Nazis.
The two causes have about zero in common.
SimpleName
02-26-2009, 10:35 PM
What a load of shit this whole situation is. People are so afraid of hurting people's feelings. The Confederate flag stood for a Confederacy. Plain and simple. It is in many cases purely heritage. And why even give a crap in the first place? If someone is racist, keeping them from displaying or wearing "racist paraphernalia" will not change their opinions. A society is only as moral as the people within it. Just as well, it is just a flag. People worry so much about stupid things like this and yet they continue to ignore the erosion of their liberties for nifty little entitlements.
My 'Peace Studies' teacher, a big asshole (and Bush Republican), went off on his usual generalizing rants about the COnfederate flag one time. He insisted that anybody who flew the flag was a racist. He called anyone who said it meant something else was full of "bullshit". More proof teachers suck.
raiha
02-26-2009, 10:40 PM
We have an unfortunate lack of imagination when wandering backwards 150 years. We imagine the world views of olde = world view of most civilized people in 2009. Most people in the so-called civilized countries then believed anyone of another colour was inferior. Including Lincoln. So we arrogantly super-impose our current values onto values of times gone by.
They were racist then!!!
That is why i disagree with your spin Kludge. The NOrtherneres were more racist then than the Southerners. The Southerners lived and worked alongside their slaves. The Northerners kept them at arms length at all costs. So spare us the racist South and enlightened North BS.
Reconstruction made it a dog's dinner box. There were lynchings in the North also remember.
nate895
02-26-2009, 10:45 PM
We have an unfortunate lack of imagination when wandering backwards 150 years. We imagine the world views of olde = world view of most civilized people in 2009. Most people in the so-called civilized countries then believed anyone of another colour was inferior. Including Lincoln. So we arrogantly super-impose our current values onto values of times gone by.
They were racist then!!!
That is why i disagree with your spin Kludge. The NOrtherneres were more racist then than the Southerners. The Southerners lived and worked alongside their slaves. The Northerners kept them at arms length at all costs. So spare us the racist South and enlightened North BS.
Reconstruction made it a dog's dinner box. There were lynchings in the North also remember.
While it may not show that the South was unracist, this letter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffS0BBMWQWI) read by a computer voice on a youtube video does show that while Northerners were just racist hicks who wanted nothing to do with blacks, at least Southerners wanted to show them some compassion.
Also, almost all racial tension heated up after the war. They were still racist before the war, but it was much more like what the letter describes. Southerners even allowed free blacks the rights of citizenship according to a North Carolina Supreme Court ruling in 1838. Racism would have died much sooner in the South had they won the war and emancipated their slaves over time instead of giving the economy one massive influx of 3,000,000 unskilled laborers when there were no unskilled laborers demanded.
jdmyprez_deo_vindice
02-26-2009, 10:46 PM
What a load of shit this whole situation is. People are so afraid of hurting people's feelings. The Confederate flag stood for a Confederacy. Plain and simple. It is in many cases purely heritage. And why even give a crap in the first place? If someone is racist, keeping them from displaying or wearing "racist paraphernalia" will not change their opinions. A society is only as moral as the people within it. Just as well, it is just a flag. People worry so much about stupid things like this and yet they continue to ignore the erosion of their liberties for nifty little entitlements.
My 'Peace Studies' teacher, a big asshole (and Bush Republican), went off on his usual generalizing rants about the COnfederate flag one time. He insisted that anybody who flew the flag was a racist. He called anyone who said it meant something else was full of "bullshit". More proof teachers suck.
If I were in that class I would have probably been arrested for assault by the end of it.
jdmyprez_deo_vindice
02-26-2009, 10:47 PM
http://www.nccoastonline.com/NIE/images/nazi-flag.jpg
My dead ancestors fought in WWII as Nazis.
Praise Jesus -- and Heritage -- and my Ancestors, for having fought on behalf of terrible causes!
This argument is used all the time by those who are anti confederate and it fails every time. Try again!
bander87
02-26-2009, 10:48 PM
Nothing to do with racism I don't think.
I think some people show it because they think they are a "rebel"
nate895
02-26-2009, 10:48 PM
If I were in that class I would have probably been arrested for assault by the end of it.
Good thing you don't live in Washington...
nate895
02-26-2009, 10:49 PM
This argument is used all the time by those who are anti confederate and it fails every time. Try again!
Like I posted, the Nazis killed people for flying the Confederate flag. We are victims of theirs, not friends.
john_anderson_ii
02-27-2009, 03:14 AM
Just a note, I haven't read this whole thread, just kind of skimmed it, so if I duplicate anyone's sentiments or retread over a covered area, I apologize. As a further note, what the hell passes for U.S. History in high school nowadays? Calling this battle flag, of little historical significance, the "Confederate Flag" or the "Stars and Bars" is just plain wrong. Are high school U.S. History classes nothing more than liberal civics and state worship sessions anymore?
http://lefteyeonthemedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/confederate_flag.jpg
So I got into a debate with a friend about the confederate flag.
He was saying that the "majority" of people who fly the flag, wear it on clothes or show it in one way or another DO fit the stereotype of being generally ignorant or misusing it in his opinion to represent pro slavery and anti federal govt. sentiments.
Your friend is partly right in the sense that those who portray this image as the "Stars and Bars" are generally ignorant of history, however, that doesn't convict someone of being a slaver or racist.
So, before we kick off any sort of moral or philosophical discussion, lets get the history straight.
The Confederate Flag, or the more popular "Stars and Bars", looks like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/CSA_FLAG_4.3.1861-21.5.1861.svg/800px-CSA_FLAG_4.3.1861-21.5.1861.svg.png
That's the Flag of the Confederacy, and the flag with the nickname "Stars and Bars". However, at the first battle of Bull Run (First Manassas to those of the Yank persuasion), General Beauregard , faced a very real tactical problem. He couldn't tell the "Stars and Bars" from the "Stars and Stripes". Given the optics of the day, he couldn't distinguish friendly unit from foe while trying to command his troops. After this battle, Beauregard turned to William Porcher Miles to devise a different flag, a "Battle Flag", to be carried into battle by troops so that he could better discern the disposition of his command. This is where the "Battle Flag" was born. William Miles had proposed his "starry crux" design to the Committee on Flag and Seal of the C.S.A., and it was rejected. However, on the battlefield, this flag design had the very real impact of giving commanding Generals a better operational picture.
In other words, this "Battle Flag" has the same historical significance as the highlighting pen, the Infrared Chem-light Marker, or the highly sophisticated radio beacon. The sole historical purpose of this flag was to distinguish units on the battlefield.
Now that history has been observed, we can get back into the discussion.
I was arguing that while there are a decent amount of people that fall into that category the strong majority of people that I have met that show the flag usually have an extended family tie to someone who fought for the confederacy or just want to show a sort of non specific southern pride.
Thoughts?
The "extended family tie" of someone who fought for the Confederacy is a scapegoat. Nowadays the "battle flag" stands for a willful anti-federal sentiment more than it stands for a racial sentiment. Of course the mainstream media will call it "racist", after all, they called not invading a country a week "isolationist", so that should give you some sort of idea of how in-touch mainstream media culture is with reality. If you are looking for a statement of racial supremacy, look for the White Celtic Cross (and verify this with any of your friends who happen to be prison guards). Sure, many members of the Aryan Brotherhood wear the battle flag, but that symbolizes their hate and distrust of the Federal Government, not their "White Power" agenda. It's the White Celtic Cross that symbolizes their racial alignment.
You can most certainly stand for resistance against an ever more power, ever more imposing and self serving federal government, while not being a racist,. and flags and colors have very little to do with it aside from media influence.
If the mainstream media were to actually investigate and draw conclusions from the "battle flag" phenomena, they might actually have to learn and think. In turn, their viewers would have to learn and think, and that is just unacceptable. It's so much easier to just say on air that "So-and-so" is racist, than it is to actually to delve into the subject. It's easier to give sound bytes over explanations. Basically, it's easier to never ask the hard questions, for instance, the hard question of why the "Battle Flag" has become a symbol of racism in the first place, and furthermore, why would anyone value a State over the Federal Government?
Yeah, "their racist" is a much easier to digest answer than actually thinking about the causes and effects.
nate895
02-27-2009, 03:36 AM
The Celtic Cross is a symbol of racism? I'm of Irish descent, that really sucks because that is my people's cross for Christ's sake. This "Aryan Brotherhood" was a bunch of assholes to begin with, now it's just personal.
sailor
02-27-2009, 04:43 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Confederate_National_Flag_since_Mar_4_1865.svg/800px-Confederate_National_Flag_since_Mar_4_1865.svg.png
Kludge
02-27-2009, 08:24 AM
As mentioned previously, the Confederate Flag was banned by the Nazis.
The two causes have about zero in common.
The causes were both stupid. Celebrating them is thus, stupid.
The Confederacy did NOT respect states' rights. They only seceded AFTER they lost power in the federal government and then proceeded to violate rights similar in manner to how Lincoln did in the North. There's nothing to celebrate. It was a stupid war with a lot of pointless murder.
Natalie
02-27-2009, 08:29 AM
When I first moved to Texas, I didn't understand the Confederate flag at all. My cousin's boyfriend had one hanging from his rear view mirror, and I was totally offended. I thought he was some sort of racist hillbilly. I was like "Wtf is wrong with this guy?" Now I understand it's more of a Southern pride thing.
Kludge
02-27-2009, 08:33 AM
The causes were both stupid. Celebrating them is thus, stupid.
The Confederacy did NOT respect states' rights. They only seceded AFTER they lost power in the federal government and then proceeded to violate rights similar in manner to how Lincoln did in the North. There's nothing to celebrate. It was a stupid war with a lot of pointless murder.
And then there's the fact that none of you lot have a goddam thing to celebrate anyway even if the cause WERE worth celebrating since you weren't even INVOLVED! How the hell can you be proud of something which you weren't involved in? You might as well be cheering on some goddam football team!
*grumbles and looks for coffee*
AutoDas
02-27-2009, 09:06 AM
I think the flag could either be Southern pride or slavery mockery. If it's Southern pride then I don't understand why, they got their ass handed to them in the Civil War. Also, the southerners I've met have a disdain hate for the Declaration of Independence. Then again, I don't see the American flag as being anything that should be revered. These flags don't stand for values I endorse.
john_anderson_ii
02-27-2009, 03:09 PM
The Celtic Cross is a symbol of racism? I'm of Irish descent, that really sucks because that is my people's cross for Christ's sake. This "Aryan Brotherhood" was a bunch of assholes to begin with, now it's just personal.
Yup, I'm afraid so: You might have seen something like this somewhere:
http://www.acs.bg/Tolerance_museum/9_2/Site/files/Projects/kartinki2/hate/stomfordlogo.jpg
Like most prison gangs, Aryan Brotherhood members mark themselves with distinctive tattoos. Designs commonly include the words "Aryan Brotherhood", the acryonym "AB", 666, SS lightning bolts, spiderwebs near the elbow, shamrocks, and other Nazi and/or Celtic iconography.[2]
There's not much mention of southern iconography, though southern iconography is closely associated with racist groups in the public's mind. I know it sucks that they claim these types of icons for their own, but I don't think anyone can convince these groups to invest in an art department and come up with their own logos. Groups like this could probably start marking themselves up with the "gay pride" rainbow and in a couple of years, the rainbow would be seen as a racist Icon, and the care bears would be SOL. That's what sensationalist media does to a culture.
The_Orlonater
02-27-2009, 03:38 PM
And then there's the fact that none of you lot have a goddam thing to celebrate anyway even if the cause WERE worth celebrating since you weren't even INVOLVED! How the hell can you be proud of something which you weren't involved in? You might as well be cheering on some goddam football team!
*grumbles and looks for coffee*
No mention of tariffs and the other four states that seceded after Lincoln mobilized into South Carolina?
Kludge
02-27-2009, 03:44 PM
No mention of tariffs and the other four states that seceded after Lincoln mobilized into South Carolina?
They were slave states. Their economies would have been crushed when Lincoln ended slavery. Lincoln's demand that the states assemble armies for him was much more likely the straw that broke the camel's back.
Danke
02-27-2009, 04:03 PM
They were slave states. Their economies would have been crushed when Lincoln ended slavery.
For what it is worth, something a friend of mine in college who studied history always was quick to point out:
"But slavery, he suggests, was on its way out in any case. Not only was it a political liability, but the institution's many-faceted costs (social cost, enforcement, uprisings, mistreatment) outweighed any profits." Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men: A History of the American Civil War, by Jeffrey Rogers Hummel
The_Orlonater
02-27-2009, 04:07 PM
They were slave states. Their economies would have been crushed when Lincoln ended slavery. Lincoln's demand that the states assemble armies for him was much more likely the straw that broke the camel's back.
The tarriff was a move to protect northern industries, this whole issue goes back before the civil war.
pcosmar
02-27-2009, 04:14 PM
They were slave states. Their economies would have been crushed when Lincoln ended slavery. Lincoln's demand that the states assemble armies for him was much more likely the straw that broke the camel's back.
Isn't that sweet.
He still remembers the History lessons from 4th grade. :rolleyes:
The_Orlonater
02-27-2009, 04:16 PM
Isn't that sweet.
He still remembers the History lessons from 4th grade. :rolleyes:
I sort of remember 7th. :D
Kludge
02-27-2009, 04:18 PM
The tarriff was a move to protect northern industries, this whole issue goes back before the civil war.
As I mentioned before, to-be Confederates had no problem with the Federal government imposing its will on states prior to losing control of the Federal Government. It was when they lost control of the Federal Government that they became bitter and began contemplating secession. The Confederate government violated states' rights, demanding that they submit for the Common Good of the Confederate State, but they already committed to murdering militant abolitionists and no one would forgive and forget. Murder gets pretty emotional, I hear.
Lives were lost because two collectives were led (via propaganda and coercion) by pansy emos couldn't reconcile their hurt feelings.
Kludge
02-27-2009, 04:20 PM
Isn't that sweet.
He still remembers the History lessons from 4th grade. :rolleyes:
I was taught that the Civil War was fought because the South had their collective rights violated by the South throughout my Public education.
nate895
02-27-2009, 04:20 PM
As I mentioned before, to-be Confederates had no problem with the Federal government imposing its will on states prior to losing control of the Federal Government. It was when they lost control of the Federal Government that they became bitter and began contemplating secession. The Confederate government violated states' rights, demanding that they submit for the Common Good of the Confederate State, but they already committed to murdering militant abolitionists and no one would forgive and forget. Murder gets pretty emotional, I hear.
Lives were lost because two collectives were led (via propaganda and coercion) by pansy emos couldn't reconcile their hurt feelings.
Name a case where they broke the Constitution.
Why would the kill abolitionist when they passed a law providing for the emancipation of slaves provided that 300,000 slaves serve in their army?
Kludge
02-27-2009, 04:21 PM
Name a case where they broke the Constitution.
I'm assuming you mean the Confederate Constitution?
nate895
02-27-2009, 04:22 PM
I'm assuming you mean the Confederate Constitution?
Both, before and during the war.
pcosmar
02-27-2009, 04:32 PM
I sort of remember 7th. :D
I remember most of it, I've had to unlearn a great deal.
You Know , like the Spanish sinking the Maine.
That the Lusitania was a innocent passenger ship, and the "evil"Germans were slaughtering our people.
That we live in a Democracy. etc,ect.
Kludge
02-27-2009, 04:34 PM
Both, before and during the war.
Aside from demanding that slaves submit to White Protestant rule...?
There was the Fugitive Slave Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Law_of_1850) prior to secession, which demanded that Northern States force citizens turn over all slaves to Southern Masters.
Here's South Carolina's reasoning for seceding (Declaration of Immediate Causes (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp)). Note that some of the reasons included mention state laws.
Here's a paragraph:
"The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation."
Give me until Monday for more...
nate895
02-27-2009, 04:59 PM
Aside from demanding that slaves submit to White Protestant rule...?
There was the Fugitive Slave Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Law_of_1850) prior to secession, which demanded that Northern States force citizens turn over all slaves to Southern Masters.
Here's South Carolina's reasoning for seceding (Declaration of Immediate Causes (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp)). Note that some of the reasons included mention state laws.
Here's a paragraph:
"The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation."
Give me until Monday for more...
The fugitive slave law was constitutional.
Kludge
02-27-2009, 05:47 PM
The fugitive slave law was constitutional.
Not according to the Supreme Court of Wisconsin... http://law.jrank.org/pages/13557/Ableman-v-Booth-United-States-v-Booth.html
nate895
02-27-2009, 06:17 PM
Not according to the Supreme Court of Wisconsin... http://law.jrank.org/pages/13557/Ableman-v-Booth-United-States-v-Booth.html
Article 4, Section 2
No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.
superseded by the thirteenth amendment.
danberkeley
02-27-2009, 06:25 PM
The Yankee flag is symbol of Northern slavery...
Athan
02-27-2009, 06:32 PM
1) Celebrating heritage is complete bunk. Reject evil deeds instead of glorifying them by flying a flag. Who cares if your ancestors (who you had NO influence on and have nothing to be proud about) killed others in a war? Frankly, the soldiers with sense deserted.
2) The Confederate flag does not, in any way, symbolize states' rights. The Confederacy often violated states' (and individuals' -- outside of slavery) during the Civil War.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/32525.html
I also suggest "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen, which is fantastic for a host of other unrelated reasons.
I agree with Kludge. I'm Texan so I fly and wear the Texas flag. I am also for small government and state's rights. The confederate flag does not represent that. The 1776 flag and Sons of Liberty flag does that beautifully. I have NO idea why I can get a confederate flag easier than I can a Sons of Liberty flag. I'm hispanic and I also get the sense it is meant to show support for the pro-slavery confederacy.
satchelmcqueen
02-27-2009, 06:32 PM
1) Celebrating heritage is complete bunk. Reject evil deeds instead of glorifying them by flying a flag. Who cares if your ancestors (who you had NO influence on and have nothing to be proud about) killed others in a war? Frankly, the soldiers with sense deserted.
2) The Confederate flag does not, in any way, symbolize states' rights. The Confederacy often violated states' (and individuals' -- outside of slavery) during the Civil War.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/32525.html
I also suggest "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen, which is fantastic for a host of other unrelated reasons.
its about heritage to me.
Kludge
02-27-2009, 06:36 PM
Article 4, Section 2
No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.
superseded by the thirteenth amendment.
That's absurd. Slaves do not owe their "Masters" anything! You cannot own a person -- especially without their consent. That law is not mentioning slaves.
Kludge
02-27-2009, 06:39 PM
its about heritage to me.
Two questions then.
1) What exactly are you celebrating? What is "Heritage"?
2) Why do you WANT to celebrate it? Do you not believe it was a stain on American history?
The_Orlonater
02-27-2009, 09:47 PM
As I mentioned before, to-be Confederates had no problem with the Federal government imposing its will on states prior to losing control of the Federal Government. It was when they lost control of the Federal Government that they became bitter and began contemplating secession. The Confederate government violated states' rights, demanding that they submit for the Common Good of the Confederate State, but they already committed to murdering militant abolitionists and no one would forgive and forget. Murder gets pretty emotional, I hear.
Lives were lost because two collectives were led (via propaganda and coercion) by pansy emos couldn't reconcile their hurt feelings.
That only? Lincoln won his election on a protectionist platform.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw5v0KqCKjU&feature=channel_page
Expound more on losing their powers. It's too broad of a statement.
Just to show our argument up, here's a cool longish-lecture.
The_Orlonater
02-27-2009, 09:49 PM
That's absurd. Slaves do not owe their "Masters" anything! You cannot own a person -- especially without their consent. That law is not mentioning slaves.
Slaves were considered property.
Kludge
02-27-2009, 10:04 PM
That only? Lincoln won his election on a protectionist platform.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw5v0KqCKjU&feature=channel_page
Just to show our argument up, here's a cool longish-lecture.
There were indeed other reasons for seceding, but none as important as slavery to the South. Southerners of the time relied on slaves for a very significant amount of their economic production (which also puts to bed the myth that Southerners truly thought they were doing slaves a favor by sheltering/feeding/watering them and sometimes giving them a petty allowance).
I'm familiar with DiLorenzo's arguments. I read "The Real Lincoln". I was fond of it. He convinced me that Lincoln's platform was created in an effort to boost his political career and that most Northern leaders were authoritarian assholes. However, he did not justify practically indiscriminate murder by Confederates. I'm not arguing that the North were the Good Guys of the War, but that they both fucked up and murdered for fairly insignificant reasons. The Confederate propaganda machine went nuts trying to paint the Unionists as tyrannical nutjobs who wanted to destroy the Confederacy. Hell -- the average Southerner of the time suffered FAR less government oppression than we do today.
Is unethical government interference in the form excessive taxation or unfair tariffs REALLY worth murder? The Founders were in a similar position. They favored war, but I really doubt many people today would actually revolt if we were still colonized (yes, I'm aware it isn't feasible) by Britain. Too many people are literate and have access to too much information to be as emotionally persuaded by propaganda such as Paine's "Common Sense" as early Patriots were.
Kludge
02-27-2009, 10:05 PM
Slaves were considered property.
Slaves are not property, they are people, and they owed nothing to their "Masters". Ethics (Natural Rights) do not change over time.
Kludge
02-27-2009, 10:17 PM
Why don't we celebrate the Red Strings?
Quakers?
They aren't hardcore mother-fuckers, but their hands are clean. The Red Strings were politically active (though largely ignored), and the Quakers were fantastic in their charitable works and beliefs in individualism.
The_Orlonater
02-27-2009, 10:18 PM
Slaves are not property, they are people, and they owed nothing to their "Masters". Ethics (Natural Rights) do not change over time.
I'm not arguing that I believe that. Slaves were considered property, that's why they were slaves.
Kludge
02-27-2009, 10:20 PM
I'm not arguing that I believe that. Slaves were considered property, that's why they were slaves.
But slaves are not property. Slaves owed no labor or service in ANY state.
The_Orlonater
02-27-2009, 10:26 PM
There were indeed other reasons for seceding, but none as important as slavery to the South. Southerners of the time relied on slaves for a very significant amount of their economic production (which also puts to bed the myth that Southerners truly thought they were doing slaves a favor by sheltering/feeding/watering them and sometimes giving them a petty allowance).
There was no threat of ending slavery withing the Republican party.
http://www.cprr.org/Museum/Ephemera/Republican_Platform_1860.html
4th Plank, also if you would watch the video I provided, you would see a quote read by Thomas Dilorenzo, by Jefferson Davis talking about the "freest trade."
I'm familiar with DiLorenzo's arguments. I read "The Real Lincoln". I was fond of it. He convinced me that Lincoln's platform was created in an effort to boost his political career and that most Northern leaders were authoritarian assholes. However, he did not justify practically indiscriminate murder by Confederates. I'm not arguing that the North were the Good Guys of the War, but that they both fucked up and murdered for fairly insignificant reasons. The Confederate propaganda machine went nuts trying to paint the Unionists as tyrannical nutjobs who wanted to destroy the Confederacy. Hell -- the average Southerner of the time suffered FAR less government oppression than we do today.
It was all a northern protectionist game. I'm not talking about how the Confederacy was a utopia, either. :D
Is unethical government interference in the form excessive taxation or unfair tariffs REALLY worth murder? The Founders were in a similar position. They favored war, but I really doubt many people today would actually revolt if we were still colonized (yes, I'm aware it isn't feasible) by Britain. Too many people are literate and have access to too much information to be as emotionally persuaded by propaganda such as Paine's "Common Sense" as early Patriots were.
We won't revolt. There's too much dissension in views scattered across the politcal spectrum.
The_Orlonater
02-27-2009, 10:28 PM
But slaves are not property. Slaves owed no labor or service in ANY state.
In those times, they were bought so they were property. Buying something doesn't mean it owes something. It was property, that was taken care of(not well obviously) to work.
i think the number is probably slightly less than what he thinks and slightly more than what you think.... a lot of people lie about why they support or show support for the confederate flag. I grew up in the south where a lot of people really do have a special bond with the [original] meaning of the flag. but i also know a lot of people who fly it for other reasons, and a good percentage of them will lie about it when asked. My own little brother is one of these people. He is about as generally racist as people can get against anyone who isn't "american" aka white hillbilly who loves huntin' and country music. (hes also 16 and hasn't been anywhere but the farm since he was born.)
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