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Chosen
02-24-2009, 10:54 AM
This question is presenting the only two options we have left as a Republic. I think it is worth review...


ARTICLE LINK (http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/8745)


The key question:



If personal freedom and individual liberty are no longer important enough to fight for in America, then someone please, tell me what is?


Secession vs. Revolution, US Constitution is being shredded, replaced by progressive democratic socialism
Tax Evasion vs. Tax Revolt

By JB Williams Monday, February 23, 2009

America is certainly headed for very difficult times and from investors to employers to employees and retirees, people of all political stripes are beginning to react to an overbearing federal government that is behaving more like a heavy handed left-wing dictatorship than a representative republic.

The US Constitution is being shredded, replaced by progressive democratic socialism. The DOW lost 27% of its value during the last six months of 2008. But it has already lost another 12% in the first thirty days of unbridled Democrat rule.

Washington DC leftists strong armed a so-called “stimulus bill” through congress without any real bi-partisan support. The people are now figuring out that it was not an “economic stimulus” effort, but rather a forty year wish list of leftist government run asset redistribution.

Talk of a second Civil War, another revolution, a Tea Party, are growing by the day as the new fed moves to confiscate private property and power in the name of a “greater communal good” and the “general welfare” of the people at large.

Last Friday, the Obama White House tried to reassure fleeing investors that it had no intention of “nationalizing” the banking industry. By Monday morning, Democrats confirmed that they were indeed planning to “nationalize” the banking industry, one bank at a time, beginning with Citi Group.

For a change, people are paying attention. They simply aren’t buying the leftist lies anymore and they are making their own plans.
But what does it all mean?

Popular left-wing political blog OpEdNews published a column titled Firestorm Brewing Between U.S. States and Federal Government, with some very interesting results. The column quotes hardcore libertarian Alex Jones, as its authority on progress towards a “New World Order.” (I think they mean One World Order, which is something quite different, although the two are often intentionally and unwittingly confused.)

The column is almost a right-wing departure from the left-wing rhetoric usually published by OpEdNews. But more interesting is OpEd reader reaction to the Jones based news that the left-wing fed has crossed some line that even liberals seem to oppose.

For the first time in decades, liberals and conservatives might actually be headed towards some form of agreement, which seemed entirely unlikely before the 2008 election cycle. As Obama, Pelosi and Reid rush to print trillions in funny money, and use it to buy up private assets placing them under the control of the failed federal wasteland, even liberals are starting to realize that individual liberty is not part of the new left agenda… They used to only be offended by the title “socialist.” Now they seem somewhat offended by the policy itself…

In another left-wing publication, TPM Cafe, a column titled Nationalize This! makes the tired old case for “nationalizing” private industry, using the same old leftist lies originally employed by people like Vladimir Lenin and Karl Marx. Essentially, they wrongly assert that capitalism relies up criminal capitalists to “self-regulate.” Then they make the insane claim that only a corrupt criminal government is capable of regulating industry.

Of course, capitalism does not rely on criminals to “self-regulate,” but rather upon informed consumers to put criminals out of business when they misbehave.

For decades now, many liberals have foolishly bought into anti-capitalism outright lies. But those days may be drawing to a close as liberals begin to figure out that it is our federal government that has spent eighty years, as Jefferson put it, “wasting the labors of the people under the false pretense of taking care of them.”

It is becoming glaringly obvious, even to liberals, that it is the fed that created, manipulated and perpetuated HUGE waste and outright fraud, leading the nation to the brink of bankruptcy today.

So, both conservatives and liberals are now talking about Tax Revolts, Tea Parties, States Rights, Civil War and another American Revolution.
The Key Maneuvers

Over twenty state legislatures have now initiated efforts to reclaim state rights and state sovereignty under the Tenth Amendment in the US Constitution and that number is growing every day. This is a VERY strong indicator that the states are “fed” up with heavy handed usurpations of Constitutional restrictions on federal powers.

Weapons and ammunition sales sky rocketed a year before the 2008 election cycle as Americans obviously sensed a growing need to provide for their own safety and security looking forward. Americans continue to build up private arsenals at a record pace, but in preparation for what?

Key members of congress, many state legislators, millions of private citizens and now US military leaders are pursuing Obama birth and college records that could very well prove that Obama is constitutionally ineligible to serve in the office he currently holds. If successful, the matter will ignite an impending constitutional crisis the likes of which have never before been seen in the United States. It will certainly ignite civil unrest in cities across America, as a fraudulent usurper who was supported by 66 million voters, is removed from office.

Private investors are fleeing from a market which is losing any sense of freedom hour by hour as the Democratic Socialists running Washington DC via their Congressional Progressive Caucus, digs their claws deeper and deeper into the free market economy in an unprecedented effort to “nationalize” banking, energy, transportation, communication, public health, and basically, anything they think brings cash flow into the fed treasury. The DOW continues its slide into the abyss as the fed seeks a deeper grip on private industry and property. The DOW has now pushed below 7300 as I write, headed towards 7000 and nobody knows where the bottom is.

A growing number of state governors are threatening to reject alleged fed “bailout” money as they learn that the fed is using those funds to dictate to the states with a heavy hand. As people become more and more familiar with the train wreck spending spree Obama signed into law last week, and all of the strings attached, they realize that it is not a “bail out” of the free market economy, but a “buy out” of private industry and state powers and they don’t like it.

Tax Revolt – Tea Party movements are popping up all over the nation. The people are sick and tired of being told that even in financial crisis caused by the fed, they must tighten their belts in support of the fed. Taxes go up over and over because governments overspend their budgets over and over. Taxpayers are tired of tightening their belts at home, just to continue funding what is clearly a losing proposition.
Tax Evasion vs. Tax Revolt

To put a fine point on this subject, if one man refuses to pay for this nonsense, he will likely lose everything and wind up in prison for tax evasion. Alone, he is powerless and vulnerable.

But if ten million taxpayers refuse to pay for this nonsense, it’s called a tax revolt. No taxpayer will lose everything or go to jail. Instead, the people in Washington DC who pushed American taxpayers to their breaking point, will be given the bums’ rush out of town, after being tarred and feathered.

A tax revolt must be well organized and enjoy broad based participation. Together, the taxpaying producers of any nation do have the political power through their checkbook, to right these wrongs. The question is - do they have the courage and good sense to use it yet, before they have no other alternative?
Secession vs. Revolution

State legislatures rushing to reclaim states rights and sovereignty would be foolish to do so in preparation of a secession movement. Seceding from the union would render the US Constitution void and moot. It would be counter-productive to their interests.

Instead, I believe the current movement to reclaim state sovereignty under the Tenth Amendment is in preparation of a state led revolution, whereby the states can band together to put the fed back in its proper place.

A taxpayer revolution, led by the states seeking to reclaim their sovereignty and power, can band together in an effort to force the fed to back off of its current rush into disastrous democratic socialism. Obama claims that he has the right because the people voted for it. But did 66(66,882,230) million Americans really, knowingly, vote for unbridled secular socialism, open borders, the nationalizing of industry after industry? I don’t think so....
A Tax Revolt is the Peaceful Answer

So many Americans have been indoctrinated into the belief that they have a right to other people’s stuff, that they are now claiming “sqautters’ rights” on homes that have been foreclosed on, and are settling into those homes as if they somehow earned them…

The half of Americans who pay little or no taxes, feel entirely entitled to the property of others. As a result, the other half of Americans who earned everything they own are growing impatient with those always in search of free access to other people’s property, and the politicians who bought their own power by perpetuating that myth.

A tax revolt is the peaceful answer to the problem. Cutting off the funding by revolting against punitive taxation and reminding people that freedom is not based upon free stuff, is the peaceful solution. If the people are ready to act peacefully in opposition, there will be no need for violent civil war or secession from the union.
When All Else Fails

After the 2008 election, the horse is already out of the barn and trampling all over the rose garden. Democratic Secular Socialism is an American reality at this moment in history. Even leftist propaganda rags like Newsweek, that helped Obama take the White House, can’t avoid printing the truth today as demonstrated by their recent cover story claiming, “We’re All Socialists Now!”

Constitutional conservatives like presidential candidate Alan Keyes warn, “Stop Obama or U.S. will cease to exist.” Political pundits like Glenn Beck shout even stronger warnings for the American people, reporting that “Frustration is BOILING Over...” And now even liberals who voted for this crap, are starting to realize that they got more than they foolishly bargained for, as demonstrated by the OpEd piece linked above which states, “For years the Federal Government has presumed to be the all-powerful force governing our country, but it just could be that the Federal Government only exists at the pleasure of the state governments and the citizens thereof.”

Fellow conservative writer Joan Swirsky asks in her current New Media Journal column, “We’re Losing Our Country… But What Can We Do?”
Well, in short, we can fight peacefully today, or violently tomorrow. We can fight with our checkbooks now or with our weapons later and later may come much sooner than you think. Take your pick....

Our votes didn’t stop this from happening and there won’t be another chance to use our vote until 2010, well past the point of no return.

Now we have to use other tools of engagement, and in American politics, there is no tool mightier than money. They can’t bring about socialism that the productive members of society refuse to fund. It’s just that simple…

But all revolutions require courage, focus, a purpose greater than self, and a willingness to sit petty differences aside in an effort to work together towards more important goals.

Obama is promising not to nationalize banking as he moves towards nationalizing banking. He is promising to slash deficit spending while he is fully engaged in a record level of deficit spending, to which there is no end in sight. Clearly, just as he did throughout his campaign, he is saying one thing while he is doing the exact opposite…

In the end, the question for every American is simple and Americans of every political stripe must answer the question…

If personal freedom and individual liberty are no longer important enough to fight for in America, then someone please, tell me what is?

Anti Federalist
02-24-2009, 11:07 AM
If personal freedom and individual liberty are no longer important enough to fight for in America, then someone please, tell me what is?

To the vast muddled masses in the middle, the answer is, nothing.

Devoid of passion, whipsawed back and forth by the mindless zeitgeists and whims of the pop culture, "keeping up the Joneses", the crushing debt and tax loads, among many other things, has left them dazed, confused, dull, despondent and thinking that nothing is really worth it.

Which is why they cannot comprehend the actions of the suicide bomber and dismiss him as nothing more than "crazy".

Chosen
02-24-2009, 11:14 AM
Which is why they cannot comprehend the actions of the suicide bomber and dismiss him as nothing more than "crazy".You need to let that go. A suicide bomber is insane. If you do not want to believe that it is because of ideology, then you certainly could make the argument that it is an insane tactical choice. Maybe you can keep this discussion in the appropriate thread.


As far as the article goes, how long do you think it will be before this discussion has to go underground.

Jordan
02-24-2009, 11:29 AM
I think the two, secession and revolution, are tied together. A secession might be the last thing we've got, but it would easily flow into a full scale revolution. I dont think we're nearly prepared as a populace for such an event. While 10% of us are awake and seeing the world with open eyes the other 90% are still fast asleep.

Anti Federalist
02-24-2009, 11:33 AM
You need to let that go. A suicide bomber is insane. If you do not want to believe that it is because of ideology, then you certainly could make the argument that it is an insane tactical choice. Maybe you can keep this discussion in the appropriate thread.


As far as the article goes, how long do you think it will be before this discussion has to go underground.

I don't want to let it go, but, I'll be happy to cut and paste it into the other thread to continue the discussion.

To answer the question: To a certain extent I think it has "gone underground", which is the worst thing to happen. By doing that the idea "festers", and blows up at some point in time where it cannot be controlled.

I've made it very clear I think that one or the other is the only way out of this mess, but it has to be done properly, by the book, which is why I am happy to see all the state sovereignty bills popping up, in 29 states by my last count.

pcosmar
02-24-2009, 11:35 AM
As far as the article goes, how long do you think it will be before this discussion has to go underground.

The discussion is already in the news media (though the reason is not clear)
They may be just trying to get a feel for the planers to measure the response.
Either way , the discussion is out in the open.

pcosmar
02-24-2009, 11:41 AM
I think the two, secession and revolution, are tied together. A secession might be the last thing we've got, but it would easily flow into a full scale revolution. I dont think we're nearly prepared as a populace for such an event. While 10% of us are awake and seeing the world with open eyes the other 90% are still fast asleep.

I don't see it as a choice of either.
The attacks are going to be from the Central Government. We are in a position of defense.
What form that will take is yet to be seen. Some may attempt secession.
I think revolution is not an option at this time, not until a critical mass of the public is behind it.
We need to keep up the education on the principals of Liberty, form pockets of Liberty minded folks and hope it grows.

constituent
02-24-2009, 12:23 PM
seeing as the U.S. can't get a government devoid of crooks, tyrants and every other low form of human life via the ballot box, i hold very little hope for anything much better arising out of armed insurrection.

Chosen
02-24-2009, 12:43 PM
seeing as the U.S. can't get a government devoid of crooks, tyrants and every other low form of human life via the ballot box, i hold very little hope for anything much better arising out of armed insurrection.

This is a common illiterate misconception. It is also an intentional mis-categorization intended to contextualize revolt in the context of violence. I have found that many leftist freeper types use this "jingoism." I should take occams razor to your post as it is filled with assumptions, but I do know it is most likely nonsensical propaganda.

I will educate you.

Revolution is the denial of tyrannical authority. Revolution is not nihilism or revenge, it is the purest form of resistance for man to engage in the nature of his own existence. To resist the facade of tyrants and act. To allow the heart to examine what the mind already knows, that man's struggle for liberty is his
own, not the property of the state or it's tyrants. The act of revolution in our age is to deny the authority of this despotic Federal machine. You may wish to dismiss your own simplicity by engaging a process of self examination, not reactionary progagndistic illiteracy.

There is a bizarre notion that man must be endowed a permission to participate in the inalienable rights of existence. Our own spectacular American birth was not a decree, bound to the antithetical reactions of rebellion, but a simple realization
that acceptance of tyranny, corruption and the whims of authoritarian violence were a denial of existence. The brutal acceptance of the use of government to direct the course of one's life, allowing the fruits of industrious endeavor to be stolen and for man to pay for the privilege of all this via taxation, is to empower tyranny and deny existence.

Chosen
02-24-2009, 12:45 PM
I think the two, secession and revolution, are tied together. A secession might be the last thing we've got, but it would easily flow into a full scale revolution. I dont think we're nearly prepared as a populace for such an event. While 10% of us are awake and seeing the world with open eyes the other 90% are still fast asleep.This is on par with conditions in the first American Revolution. Some folks were walking around saying "What just happened" after the revolt.

Anti Federalist
02-24-2009, 01:21 PM
Some revolutions bring tyranny.

I'm thinking rebellion might be a better word for what you are describing.


This is a common illiterate misconception. It is also an intentional mis-categorization intended to contextualize revolt in the context of violence. I have found that many leftist freeper types use this "jingoism." I should take occams razor to your post as it is filled with assumptions, but I do know it is most likely nonsensical propaganda.

I will educate you.

Revolution is the denial of tyrannical authority. Revolution is not nihilism or revenge, it is the purest form of resistance for man to engage in the nature of his own existence. To resist the facade of tyrants and act. To allow the heart to examine what the mind already knows, that man's struggle for liberty is his
own, not the property of the state or it's tyrants. The act of revolution in our age is to deny the authority of this despotic Federal machine. You may wish to dismiss your own simplicity by engaging a process of self examination, not reactionary progagndistic illiteracy.

There is a bizarre notion that man must be endowed a permission to participate in the inalienable rights of existence. Our own spectacular American birth was not a decree, bound to the antithetical reactions of rebellion, but a simple realization
that acceptance of tyranny, corruption and the whims of authoritarian violence were a denial of existence. The brutal acceptance of the use of government to direct the course of one's life, allowing the fruits of industrious endeavor to be stolen and for man to pay for the privilege of all this via taxation, is to empower tyranny and deny existence.

nate895
02-24-2009, 02:18 PM
I think the two, secession and revolution, are tied together. A secession might be the last thing we've got, but it would easily flow into a full scale revolution. I dont think we're nearly prepared as a populace for such an event. While 10% of us are awake and seeing the world with open eyes the other 90% are still fast asleep.

In some cases they are, but in our system of government they are not. Secession is the withdrawal of one political entity from another, and it is a right under the Constitution. Revolution is the overthrow of the political structure, and since secession is part of our structure, it cannot be revolutionary.

dr. hfn
02-24-2009, 03:18 PM
we only need 3% for a revolution or secession. I think we have it

constituent
02-24-2009, 04:07 PM
<snip worthless drivel, self-aggrandizement and feigned intellect>
I will educate you.
<snip worthless drivel, self-aggrandizement and feigned intellect>


lol, what a wanker.

constituent
02-24-2009, 04:10 PM
<snip non-sensical blather>
Revolution is the denial of tyrannical authority.
<snip even more non-sensical blather>


Your education starts here:


rev⋅o⋅lu⋅tion   [rev-uh-loo-shuhn] Show IPA
–noun
1. an overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed.
2. Sociology. a radical and pervasive change in society and the social structure, esp. one made suddenly and often accompanied by violence. Compare social evolution.
3. a sudden, complete or marked change in something: the present revolution in church architecture.
4. a procedure or course, as if in a circuit, back to a starting point.
5. a single turn of this kind.
6. Mechanics.
a. a turning round or rotating, as on an axis.
b. a moving in a circular or curving course, as about a central point.
c. a single cycle in such a course.
7. Astronomy.
a. (not in technical use) rotation (def. 2).
b. the orbiting of one heavenly body around another.
c. a single course of such movement.
8. a round or cycle of events in time or a recurring period of time.
9. Geology. a time of worldwide orogeny and mountain-building.
Origin:
1350–1400; ME revolucion < LL revolūtiōn- (s. of revolūtiō), equiv. to revolūt(us) (see revolute ) + -iōn- -ion

Synonyms:
5. cycle, circuit, round, rotation.


source: dictionary.reference.com

When you're done w/ that one, move on to the following:


Noun 1. delusions of grandeur - a delusion (common in paranoia) that you are much greater and more powerful and influential than you really are
delusion, psychotic belief - (psychology) an erroneous belief that is held in the face of evidence to the contrary
megalomania - a psychological state characterized by delusions of grandeur

source: thefreedictionary.com


...and follow that up with this:


Messiah complex is a state in which the individual believes themselves to be, or destined to become, the saviour of the particular field, a group, an event, a time period, or in an extreme scenario, the world. This could also be the state in which a group views an individual as a messiah, such as followers of a cult leader. The cult leader doesn't have to claim to be a messiah, but if he is treated as such by his followers, it can also be classified as such.

source: wiki



and in the meantime, get bent.

constituent
02-24-2009, 04:29 PM
Most revolutions bring and/or perpetuate existing tyranny.
All revolutions fail.


^fixed.

pcosmar
02-24-2009, 04:35 PM
and in the meantime, get bent.

Good luck with the up coming collapse. I'm sure you will have a lot of capable friends.
When the shooting starts just stand up and wave. :rolleyes:

constituent
02-24-2009, 04:42 PM
Good luck with the up coming collapse.

[didn't realize i had addressed you, but since you brought it up...]

The sky is not falling, the end is not nigh.



I'm sure you will have a lot of capable friends.

Tried and true.

Rael
02-24-2009, 08:34 PM
lol, what a wanker.

+1

Some people use big words to create the illusion that they actually know what they are talking about.

Conza88
02-24-2009, 08:46 PM
Both are revolutionary.

nate895
02-24-2009, 11:42 PM
Both are revolutionary.

Secession is not necessarily revolutionary. Secession is only revolutionary if you are denied the right to use it according to the governing document. In some countries it is revolutionary, such as the French unitary state. In some countries, like Canada, it would be radical, but not revolutionary.

Conza88
02-24-2009, 11:50 PM
Secession is not necessarily revolutionary. Secession is only revolutionary if you are denied the right to use it according to the governing document. In some countries it is revolutionary, such as the French unitary state. In some countries, like Canada, it would be radical, but not revolutionary.

Yes. But there is no way in hell they'll ever be allowed to succeed by seceding.

Obama = Lincoln after all... :eek: lol.

Think he's going to just let the "Union" fail?

Nah ahh. :(

Hence the required revolution.

nate895
02-25-2009, 12:08 AM
Yes. But there is no way in hell they'll ever be allowed to succeed by seceding.

Obama = Lincoln after all... :eek: lol.

Think he's going to just let the "Union" fail?

Nah ahh. :(

Hence the required revolution.

It wouldn't be a revolution on the part of the seceding states, now, would it? It would be a revolutionary act of the Federal government, just like it was at the time of Lincoln, but Lincoln failed to write it into the Constitution because he wanted to convince the American people that the South never had the right to secede, but he never convinced all of them, so his revolution failed without a written change of governmental form.

Conza88
02-25-2009, 12:25 AM
It wouldn't be a revolution on the part of the seceding states, now, would it? It would be a revolutionary act of the Federal government, just like it was at the time of Lincoln, but Lincoln failed to write it into the Constitution because he wanted to convince the American people that the South never had the right to secede, but he never convinced all of them, so his revolution failed without a written change of governmental form.

I wouldn't call that a revolution at all. I'd call it a 'continuation of the status quo'.

The American Revolution. Yes, basically succession from the mother land.

American Revolution II. Succession from the fatherland. (FED, Central Government)