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View Full Version : Glenn Greenwald makes some good points on the Hypocrisy




TheConstitutionLives
02-23-2009, 08:49 PM
Sunday Feb. 22, 2009 07:36 EST
Fox News "war games" the coming civil war
(updated below)

Bill Clinton's election in 1992 gave rise to the American "militia movement": hordes of overwhelmingly white, middle-aged men from suburban and rural areas who convinced themselves they were defending the American way of life from the "liberals" and "leftists" running the country by dressing up in military costumes on weekends, wobbling around together with guns, and play-acting the role of patriot-warriors. Those theater groups -- the cultural precursor to George Bush's prancing 2003 performance dressed in a fighter pilot outfit on Mission Accomplished Day -- spawned the decade of the so-called "Angry White Male," the movement behind the 1994 takeover of the U.S. Congress by Newt Gingrich and his band of federal-government-cursing, pseudo-revolutionary, play-acting tough guys.

What was most remarkable about this allegedly "anti-government" movement was that -- with some isolated and principled exceptions -- it completely vanished upon the election of Republican George Bush, and it stayed invisible even as Bush presided over the most extreme and invasive expansion of federal government power in memory. Even as Bush seized and used all of the powers which that movement claimed in the 1990s to find so tyrannical and unconstitutional -- limitless, unchecked surveillance activities, detention powers with no oversight, expanding federal police powers, secret prison camps, even massively exploding and debt-financed domestic spending -- they meekly submitted to all of it, even enthusiastically cheered it all on.

They're the same people who embraced and justified full-scale, impenetrable federal government secrecy and comprehensive domestic spying databases conducted in the dark and against the law when perpetrated by a Republican President -- but have spent the last week flamboyantly pretending to be scandalized and outraged by the snooping which Bill Moyers did 45 years ago (literally) as part of a Democratic administration. They're the people who relentlessly opposed and impugned Clinton's military deployments and then turned around and insisted that only those who are anti-American would question or oppose Bush's decision to start wars.

They're the same people who believed that Bill Clinton's use of the FISA court to obtain warrants to eavesdrop on Americans was a grave threat to liberty, but believed that George Bush's warrantless eavesdropping on Americans in violation of the law was a profound defense of freedom. In sum, they dressed up in warrior clothing to fight against Bill Clinton's supposed tyranny, and then underwent a major costume change on January 20, 2001, thereafter dressing up in cheerleader costumes to glorify George Bush's far more extreme acquisitions of federal power.

In doing so, they revealed themselves as motivated by no ideological principles or political values of any kind. It was a purely tribalistic movement motivated by fear of losing its cultural and demographic supremacy. In that sense -- the only sense that mattered -- George Bush was one of them, even though, with his actions, he did everything they long claimed to fear and despise. Nonetheless, his mere occupancy of the White House was sufficient to pacify them and convert them almost overnight from limited-government militants into foot soldiers supporting the endless expansion of federal government power.

But now, only four weeks into the presidency of Barack Obama, they are back -- angrier and more chest-beating than ever. Actually, the mere threat of an Obama presidency was enough to revitalize them from their eight-year slumber, awaken them from their camouflaged, well-armed suburban caves. The disturbingly ugly atmosphere that marked virtually every Sarah Palin rally had its roots in this cultural resentment, which is why her fear-mongering cultural warnings about Obama's exotic, threatening otherness -- he's a Muslim-loving, Terrorist-embracing, Rev.-Wright-following Marxist: who is the real Barack Obama? -- resonated so stingingly with the rabid lynch mobs that cheered her on.

With Obama now actually in the Oval Office -- and a financial crisis in full force that is generating the exact type of widespread, intense anxiety that typically inflames these cultural resentments -- their mask is dropping, has dropped, and they've suddenly re-discovered their righteous "principles." The week-long CNBC Revolt of the Traders led by McCain voter Rick Santelli and the fledgling little Tea Party movement promoted by the Michelle Malkins of the world are obvious outgrowths of this 1990s mentality, now fortified by the most powerful fuel: deep economic fear. But as feisty and fire-breathing as those outbursts are, nothing can match -- for pure, illustrative derangement -- the discussion below from Glenn Beck's new Fox show this week, in which he and an array of ex-military and CIA guests ponder (and plot and plan) "war games" for the coming Civil War against Obama-led tyranny. It really has to be seen to be believed.

Before presenting that to you, a few caveats are in order: There is nothing inherently wrong or illegitimate with citizens expressing extreme anger towards the Government and the ruling political class. There isn't even anything wrong or illegitimate with citizens organizing themselves into a movement that -- whether by design or effect -- is threatening to entrenched elites. If anything, we've had too little of that. In fact, it's only a complete lack of fear of a meek, passive and impotent citizenry on the part of political and financial rulers -- a certainty that there will be no consequences no matter what they do -- that could have given rise to the endless corruption, deceit, lawbreaking, destruction, and outright thievery of the last eight years. A political and financial elite that perceives itself as invulnerable from threat or consequence will inevitably vest itself with more power and more riches. That's what we've had and, largely, still have.

But this Rush-Limbaugh/Fox-News/nationalistic movement isn't driven by anything noble or principled or even really anything political. If it were, they would have been extra angry and threatening and rebellious during the Bush years instead of complicit and meek and supportive to the point of cult-like adoration. Instead, they're just basically Republican dead-enders (at least what remains of the regional/extremist GOP), grounded in tribal allegiances that are fueled by their cultural, ethnic and religious identities and by perceived threats to past prerogatives -- now spiced with legitimate economic anxiety and an African-American President who, they were continuously warned for the last two years, is a Marxist, Terrorist-sympathizing black nationalist radical who wants to re-distribute their hard-earned money to welfare queens and illegal immigrants (and is now doing exactly that).

That's the context for this Glenn Beck "War Games" show on Fox News this week -- one promoted, with some mild and obligatory caveats, by Michelle Malkin's Hot Air. In the segment below, he convened a panel that includes former CIA officer Michael Scheuer and Ret. U.S. Army Sgt. Major Tim Strong. They discuss a coming "civil war" led by American "Bubba" militias -- Beck says he "believes we're on this road" -- and they contemplate whether the U.S. military would follow the President's orders to subdue civil unrest or would instead join with "the people" in defense of their Constitutional rights against the Government (they agree that the U.S. military would be with "the people"):

constituent
02-23-2009, 08:55 PM
Glenn Greenwald = too pitiful to lol@

...and to think, just months ago he was asking RP supporters to fork over 400K to his PAC.

pcosmar
02-23-2009, 09:01 PM
What a complete load of bullshit.
Starting here,

Bill Clinton's election in 1992 gave rise to the American "militia movement": hordes of overwhelmingly white, middle-aged men from suburban and rural areas who convinced themselves they were defending the American way of life from the "liberals" and "leftists"
The rest of this load of dung is not even worth quoting when the first premise is a bold faced lie.
The Clinton years drove the Patriots underground. It was much older than that before the coordinated attacks of the Clinton administration.

Where did this crap come from?

constituent
02-23-2009, 09:03 PM
Where did this crap come from?

the strangebedfellow apparently, if the OP has properly attributed it.

pcosmar
02-23-2009, 09:27 PM
Well I was aware of folks back in the late 70s, Though at that time I was not motivated to join them. I never was much of a joiner. I have always been somewhat of a survivalist though. Self sufficiency was part of my upbringing.
The OKC bombing and weapon bans had started to awaken me.
A personal experience kicked me in the butt, and Ron Paul gave me some hope and got me involved.
That hope is gone.

TheConstitutionLives
02-23-2009, 09:35 PM
What a complete load of bullshit.
Starting here,

The rest of this load of dung is not even worth quoting when the first premise is a bold faced lie.
The Clinton years drove the Patriots underground. It was much older than that before the coordinated attacks of the Clinton administration.

Where did this crap come from?

- No, he's right. There was a spike in militia involvement during the Clinton years. Remember the Michigan Militia? It had tens of thousands of people but it's since desolved.

I disagree with his take on the Beck stuff being over the top b/c I think this sort of dialogue should take place. However, his point about many of the republican voters being active in defense of liberty and the constitution during Clinton but asleep at the wheel while Bush was in office is totally valid.

Just b/c I disagree with portions of what he believes doesn't mean I toss the baby out with the bathwater. Greenwald, unlike the vast majority of democrats, is holding Obama's feet to the fire regarding abuses of power.

TheConstitutionLives
02-23-2009, 09:42 PM
Glenn Greenwald = too pitiful to lol@

...and to think, just months ago he was asking RP supporters to fork over 400K to his PAC.

- I guess we should all sit around and only join forces with those we agree 100% ? Hmm... well, there's a bit of a problem with that. The people on this very board don't agree with each other 100%.

I'm all for supporting anyone on any issue as long as it's a pro-liberty issue that's being pushed. We have to do that or else we're spinning our wheels as a movement. I disagree with my representative on 75% of the issues but does that mean I don't support him in the 25% I DO agree with?

We've gotta be realistic here.

Plus, you guys who are knocking the piece are totally missing the point of why I posted it. The point is that the hypocritical republican voters were all pissy and active when a democrat was in office but didn't do sqwat while Bush was taking abuses over the edge. That's the point. That's why I posted it, not to disect each and every single word Greenwald says. His overall message is "Where were these guys the past 8 years?".

pcosmar
02-23-2009, 09:45 PM
- No, he's right. There was a spike in militia involvement during the Clinton years. Remember the Michigan Militia? It had tens of thousands of people but it's since desolved.



???
Say what, Want to post some proof and not some inane ramblings.
Michigan Militia you say?
Really?
Wanna Bet.

Oh lookie there, just happens to be in my BOOKMARKS
http://www.michiganmilitia.com/index.htm
http://www.michiganmilitia.com/SMVM/field_reports/2007/feb007/sno_dawg_info.htm

Yup, just a bunch of fat white guys

http://www.michiganmilitia.com/images/banners/INDEX1.jpg

pcosmar
02-23-2009, 09:48 PM
His overall message is "Where were these guys the past 8 years?".

Avoiding Homeland security. And watching very closely.
BTW , The Michigan had nothing to do with OKC, but was used in the propaganda of the time.
From what I can tell Tim McVey was never a member of ANY militia unit, He was however US Army.

TheConstitutionLives
02-23-2009, 09:48 PM
???
Say what, Want to post some proof and not some inane ramblings.
Michigan Militia you say?
Really?
Wanna Bet.

Oh lookie there, just happens to be in my BOOKMARKS
http://www.michiganmilitia.com/index.htm
http://www.michiganmilitia.com/SMVM/field_reports/2007/feb007/sno_dawg_info.htm

Yup, just a bunch of fat white guys

http://www.michiganmilitia.com/images/banners/INDEX1.jpg

I didn't mean it disolved to nothing. Good lord. LOL

TheConstitutionLives
02-23-2009, 09:49 PM
Avoiding Homeland security. And watching very closely.

You mean the average Republican was? BS. That's what he's talking about - the average republican, not hardcore anti-government militiamen.

pcosmar
02-23-2009, 09:56 PM
You mean the average Republican was? BS. That's what he's talking about - the average republican, not hardcore anti-government militiamen.

Hell the average R is no different than the average D. Brain dead and asleep. Hell, they voted for McCain.
I was quite surprised to see Becks show.
The Neo Cons out there likely don't buy it any more than the Obamaites.
They are in for a rude awakening.

TheConstitutionLives
02-23-2009, 09:58 PM
The Michigan had nothing to do with OKC, but was used in the propaganda of the time

- Oh, totally. I'm not accusing them of doing anything. Never thought that. I'm pro-militia. We need alot more involvement in it.

TheConstitutionLives
02-23-2009, 10:01 PM
Hell the average R is no different than the average D. Brain dead and asleep. Hell, they voted for McCain.
I was quite surprised to see Becks show.
The Neo Cons out there likely don't buy it any more than the Obamaites.
They are in for a rude awakening.

- Again, he's talking about ...

"the fledgling little Tea Party movement promoted by the Michelle Malkins of the world"

The Michelle Malkins are all pissy and active now, leading mini revolts, protesting, etc., but they were asleep the past 8 years. That's all he's saying.

Anti Federalist
02-23-2009, 10:02 PM
Which is why the neo-cons have zero credibility right now.

Which is why our principled opposition cannot be tied to the likes of Beck, for instance, who is the epitome of the Republican "dead ender" spoken about here.

Because you see, some of us who are principled, have been raising seven kinds of holy under the Bush abomination.

Beck and Savage and the GOP and Malkin and all the rest are 8 years too late to this party. They are welcome to join, but they better be willing to take a back seat and shut up. That is the price they have to pay for shilling and whoring for W for all these years and now, miracle of miracles, have seen the light (maybe).


But this Rush-Limbaugh/Fox-News/nationalistic movement isn't driven by anything noble or principled or even really anything political. If it were, they would have been extra angry and threatening and rebellious during the Bush years instead of complicit and meek and supportive to the point of cult-like adoration. Instead, they're just basically Republican dead-enders (at least what remains of the regional/extremist GOP), grounded in tribal allegiances that are fueled by their cultural, ethnic and religious identities and by perceived threats to past prerogatives -- now spiced with legitimate economic anxiety and an African-American President who, they were continuously warned for the last two years, is a Marxist, Terrorist-sympathizing black nationalist radical who wants to re-distribute their hard-earned money to welfare queens and illegal immigrants (and is now doing exactly that).

pcosmar
02-23-2009, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by TheConstitutionLives
You mean the average Republican was? BS. That's what he's talking about - the average republican, not hardcore anti-government militiamen.
I have never been a Republican, though I have voted for some. I have always been Independent.

But what exactly is hardcore anti-government militiamen. I have never met any.
Those that I have met are Pro Constitution.
Anti Corruption
Anti Socialist
Pro Family and Pro Community
Pro Freedom

They are"We the People" folks. You Know, the ones that are supposed to be the government.

TheConstitutionLives
02-23-2009, 10:11 PM
I have never been a Republican, though I have voted for some. I have always been Independent.

But what exactly is hardcore anti-government militiamen. I have never met any.
Those that I have met are Pro Constitution.
Anti Corruption
Anti Socialist
Pro Family and Pro Community
Pro Freedom

They are"We the People" folks. You Know, the ones that are supposed to be the government.

- Oh gosh. Here we go, over analyzing again.

The "Pro Constitution, Anti Corruption, Anti Socialist, Pro Family and Pro Community, Pro Freedom" are the hardcore people I'm talking about.

pcosmar
02-23-2009, 10:22 PM
- Oh gosh. Here we go, over analyzing again.

The "Pro Constitution, Anti Corruption, Anti Socialist, Pro Family and Pro Community, Pro Freedom" are the hardcore people I'm talking about.

Ah, those are the ones that The democrats were demonizing, Bush was busy with his war and mostly left them alone. Well except for a few murders and a lot of BATF raids that never got much coverage.
As far as "Hot Air" and Faux. well what can you say.
What ever way the wind blows. It does surprise me that they are covering this. Their purpose is unclear at this point.
I do remember that it was under Reagan that the FEMA camps were first established, and Bush spent a bunch of money Upgrading them.
Seems like the "Rs"set things up and the "Ds" use them.

Kade
02-23-2009, 11:09 PM
Sunday Feb. 22, 2009 07:36 EST
Fox News "war games" the coming civil war
(updated below)

Bill Clinton's election in 1992 gave rise to the American "militia movement": hordes of overwhelmingly white, middle-aged men from suburban and rural areas who convinced themselves they were defending the American way of life from the "liberals" and "leftists" running the country by dressing up in military costumes on weekends, wobbling around together with guns, and play-acting the role of patriot-warriors. Those theater groups -- the cultural precursor to George Bush's prancing 2003 performance dressed in a fighter pilot outfit on Mission Accomplished Day -- spawned the decade of the so-called "Angry White Male," the movement behind the 1994 takeover of the U.S. Congress by Newt Gingrich and his band of federal-government-cursing, pseudo-revolutionary, play-acting tough guys.

What was most remarkable about this allegedly "anti-government" movement was that -- with some isolated and principled exceptions -- it completely vanished upon the election of Republican George Bush, and it stayed invisible even as Bush presided over the most extreme and invasive expansion of federal government power in memory. Even as Bush seized and used all of the powers which that movement claimed in the 1990s to find so tyrannical and unconstitutional -- limitless, unchecked surveillance activities, detention powers with no oversight, expanding federal police powers, secret prison camps, even massively exploding and debt-financed domestic spending -- they meekly submitted to all of it, even enthusiastically cheered it all on.

They're the same people who embraced and justified full-scale, impenetrable federal government secrecy and comprehensive domestic spying databases conducted in the dark and against the law when perpetrated by a Republican President -- but have spent the last week flamboyantly pretending to be scandalized and outraged by the snooping which Bill Moyers did 45 years ago (literally) as part of a Democratic administration. They're the people who relentlessly opposed and impugned Clinton's military deployments and then turned around and insisted that only those who are anti-American would question or oppose Bush's decision to start wars.

They're the same people who believed that Bill Clinton's use of the FISA court to obtain warrants to eavesdrop on Americans was a grave threat to liberty, but believed that George Bush's warrantless eavesdropping on Americans in violation of the law was a profound defense of freedom. In sum, they dressed up in warrior clothing to fight against Bill Clinton's supposed tyranny, and then underwent a major costume change on January 20, 2001, thereafter dressing up in cheerleader costumes to glorify George Bush's far more extreme acquisitions of federal power.

In doing so, they revealed themselves as motivated by no ideological principles or political values of any kind. It was a purely tribalistic movement motivated by fear of losing its cultural and demographic supremacy. In that sense -- the only sense that mattered -- George Bush was one of them, even though, with his actions, he did everything they long claimed to fear and despise. Nonetheless, his mere occupancy of the White House was sufficient to pacify them and convert them almost overnight from limited-government militants into foot soldiers supporting the endless expansion of federal government power.

But now, only four weeks into the presidency of Barack Obama, they are back -- angrier and more chest-beating than ever. Actually, the mere threat of an Obama presidency was enough to revitalize them from their eight-year slumber, awaken them from their camouflaged, well-armed suburban caves. The disturbingly ugly atmosphere that marked virtually every Sarah Palin rally had its roots in this cultural resentment, which is why her fear-mongering cultural warnings about Obama's exotic, threatening otherness -- he's a Muslim-loving, Terrorist-embracing, Rev.-Wright-following Marxist: who is the real Barack Obama? -- resonated so stingingly with the rabid lynch mobs that cheered her on.

With Obama now actually in the Oval Office -- and a financial crisis in full force that is generating the exact type of widespread, intense anxiety that typically inflames these cultural resentments -- their mask is dropping, has dropped, and they've suddenly re-discovered their righteous "principles." The week-long CNBC Revolt of the Traders led by McCain voter Rick Santelli and the fledgling little Tea Party movement promoted by the Michelle Malkins of the world are obvious outgrowths of this 1990s mentality, now fortified by the most powerful fuel: deep economic fear. But as feisty and fire-breathing as those outbursts are, nothing can match -- for pure, illustrative derangement -- the discussion below from Glenn Beck's new Fox show this week, in which he and an array of ex-military and CIA guests ponder (and plot and plan) "war games" for the coming Civil War against Obama-led tyranny. It really has to be seen to be believed.

Before presenting that to you, a few caveats are in order: There is nothing inherently wrong or illegitimate with citizens expressing extreme anger towards the Government and the ruling political class. There isn't even anything wrong or illegitimate with citizens organizing themselves into a movement that -- whether by design or effect -- is threatening to entrenched elites. If anything, we've had too little of that. In fact, it's only a complete lack of fear of a meek, passive and impotent citizenry on the part of political and financial rulers -- a certainty that there will be no consequences no matter what they do -- that could have given rise to the endless corruption, deceit, lawbreaking, destruction, and outright thievery of the last eight years. A political and financial elite that perceives itself as invulnerable from threat or consequence will inevitably vest itself with more power and more riches. That's what we've had and, largely, still have.

But this Rush-Limbaugh/Fox-News/nationalistic movement isn't driven by anything noble or principled or even really anything political. If it were, they would have been extra angry and threatening and rebellious during the Bush years instead of complicit and meek and supportive to the point of cult-like adoration. Instead, they're just basically Republican dead-enders (at least what remains of the regional/extremist GOP), grounded in tribal allegiances that are fueled by their cultural, ethnic and religious identities and by perceived threats to past prerogatives -- now spiced with legitimate economic anxiety and an African-American President who, they were continuously warned for the last two years, is a Marxist, Terrorist-sympathizing black nationalist radical who wants to re-distribute their hard-earned money to welfare queens and illegal immigrants (and is now doing exactly that).

That's the context for this Glenn Beck "War Games" show on Fox News this week -- one promoted, with some mild and obligatory caveats, by Michelle Malkin's Hot Air. In the segment below, he convened a panel that includes former CIA officer Michael Scheuer and Ret. U.S. Army Sgt. Major Tim Strong. They discuss a coming "civil war" led by American "Bubba" militias -- Beck says he "believes we're on this road" -- and they contemplate whether the U.S. military would follow the President's orders to subdue civil unrest or would instead join with "the people" in defense of their Constitutional rights against the Government (they agree that the U.S. military would be with "the people"):

Outstanding piece. He is such a better writer than myself... especially in his ability to say EVERYTHING I've wanted to say about this movement, and within these passages reside so many of you.

I always say, there are a few of us left. Greenwald is one of them.

Kade
02-23-2009, 11:12 PM
You mean the average Republican was? BS. That's what he's talking about - the average republican, not hardcore anti-government militiamen.

No, he clearly defined who he was talking about. Read with an open mind, and an ability to see other points of view.

Anti Federalist
02-23-2009, 11:13 PM
Outstanding piece. He is such a better writer than myself... especially in his ability to say EVERYTHING I've wanted to say about this movement, and within these passages reside so many of you.

I always say, there are a few of us left. Greenwald is one of them.

Ladies and gentlemen...Kade!

Where ya been?

Kade
02-23-2009, 11:18 PM
I fear that in the end, this country will be ruled by people like you, and while my friends burn at the stake, so called "elites' in higher education, "elites" of the Coffee shop will skinned and scooped with a buttout on a flag post.

In the end, we are going to have a military dictatorship in this country, run by someone with "God's will", telling me everyday what freedom is, because I apparently can't define it myself.


This is the road the idiots are traveling. It is not about government oversight, or reduction. It's not about free enterprise or individualism, -- it is about how big your balls are, how nasty your gun looks, how much God loves you, and making sure the gays don't ruin your third marriage. It is about ethnicity, about hatred, and about power.

Travel this road, and we will have a REAL revolution; the "Elites" will have to step in again and create another government, this time in stone, instead of paper, so you don't muck it up.

Kade
02-23-2009, 11:20 PM
Ladies and gentlemen...Kade!

Where ya been?

I had a return party earlier...

I've been working, as usual...that and avoiding this place-- until I heard about the nonsense Theocrat was spewing...

I'm hoping that not everyone has lost their senses here.