Could We Be Wrong?

[Rael]

Could it be that the world really isn't coming to an end? Is it possible that we have so much invested in SHTF, that we want it to happen, and that it will be a blow to our egos if it does not? What if we are stressing ourselves out over this, not living our lives, and nothing bad happens? How many of us freaked out and hunkered down, over Y2K, then when nothing happened, resented the fact that planning and worrying about it so much was a huge waste of our time? Could this be the case today? What if a year or 2 from now we look at our huge stockpiles of ammo and food gathering dust, and feel foolish, wishing we had spent money on something else?

[torchbearer]

Its possible, but there are many indicators to show something has to give.

[Bruno]

Could it be that the world really isn't coming to an end? Is it possible that we have so much invested in SHTF, that we want it to happen, and that it will be a blow to our egos if it does not? What if we are stressing ourselves out over this, not living our lives, and nothing bad happens? How many of us freaked out and hunkered down, over Y2K, then when nothing happened, resented the fact that planning and worrying about it so much was a huge waste of our time? Could this be the case today? What if a year or 2 from now we look at our huge stockpiles of ammo and food gathering dust, and feel foolish, wishing we had spent money on something else?

Ammo has a pretty good shelf life.

Rotate our your food stock and that isn't a problem, either.

[Andromeda]

I wasn't afraid of Y2K. Then again. . . I was 14. lol

But seriously, I have been feeling that something isn't right in our political system since Bush was re-elected. That didn't sit well with me. We've reached that moment in a country's history where people are reaching their limit with what they're willing to take from the government. Both political parties are just opposing each other just to oppose each other. How are we ever going to make any progress with that? It's time for the rise of another political party or the dissolution of them (I prefer the latter).

Citizens are upset that they're opinions are not being represented and that they are blatantly being mislead. While there's always a group of people who are unhappy, there are hundreds of people becoming frustrated over the same issues every day. And they're not sitting idly by. They're educating themselves.

If you want to change where our future's are headed, that time is rapidly approaching. It's time to stand up for what you believe in.

[heavenlyboy34]

Could it be that the world really isn't coming to an end? Is it possible that we have so much invested in SHTF, that we want it to happen, and that it will be a blow to our egos if it does not? What if we are stressing ourselves out over this, not living our lives, and nothing bad happens? How many of us freaked out and hunkered down, over Y2K, then when nothing happened, resented the fact that planning and worrying about it so much was a huge waste of our time? Could this be the case today? What if a year or 2 from now we look at our huge stockpiles of ammo and food gathering dust, and feel foolish, wishing we had spent money on something else?

Not really. Even if there's no TSHF soon, the things that brought us to this point are still threatening (statism, socialism, militarism, etc). So, if TPTB are defeated this time, the next time will be soon enough to merit preparation and education of the sheeple. :o:eek:

[tribute_13]

I don't think the world will come an end. I think the U.S. will undergo severe changes though. Do I think everyone will be hiding in their basements with AK's to ambush the death squads? No. Possibility but I doubt it.

I do think and believe with ever ounce of being that we will go through another depression. I don't personally see that as the shit hitting the fan although most do. I've lived in poverty my entire childhood, hell I got internet only 2 years ago and that was after I moved out of my parents house. So if tshtf I'm prepared.

Its the irrational fear of not having luxury that drives the shit hitting the fan scare. At least in my eyes.

And if this country goes through yet again another civil war or revolution, I won't see it as a scary thing but an indication that people do have the ability to stick up for whats right. I will see it as a beautiful thing that proves there are good qualities in the hearts of man.

[Original_Intent]

Could it be that the world really isn't coming to an end? Is it possible that we have so much invested in SHTF, that we want it to happen, and that it will be a blow to our egos if it does not? What if we are stressing ourselves out over this, not living our lives, and nothing bad happens? How many of us freaked out and hunkered down, over Y2K, then when nothing happened, resented the fact that planning and worrying about it so much was a huge waste of our time? Could this be the case today? What if a year or 2 from now we look at our huge stockpiles of ammo and food gathering dust, and feel foolish, wishing we had spent money on something else?

I'll take my chances compared to the outcome of looking at empty shelves and starving family two years from now.

The two different regrets don't even compare to each other, do they? :o

[TurtleBurger]

I hope we are wrong. I hope Obama's stimulus will mean each American will live in a mansion and have 2 Ferraris in their driveway and never have to work again.

[Xenophage]

Could it be that the world really isn't coming to an end? Is it possible that we have so much invested in SHTF, that we want it to happen, and that it will be a blow to our egos if it does not? What if we are stressing ourselves out over this, not living our lives, and nothing bad happens? How many of us freaked out and hunkered down, over Y2K, then when nothing happened, resented the fact that planning and worrying about it so much was a huge waste of our time? Could this be the case today? What if a year or 2 from now we look at our huge stockpiles of ammo and food gathering dust, and feel foolish, wishing we had spent money on something else?

Yes, its possible that you have done that. I've considered the possibility of SHTF, but I find it unlikely that everything will come crashing down catastrophically. I don't think we will have hyperinflation. I don't think there will be a revolution. I don't think any states will secede. I don't think Jesus will descend from heaven to do battle with the Rockefellers.

What I think will happen is what has been happening for almost a hundred years in America: Our liberties will slowly and steadily erode before our eyes as our real wages and quality of life goes down and our popularity in the world is diminished.

We may even experience a bounce or two and feel like we're doing alright again, but over time things only get worse. Inflation and technological advancement operate in concert to hide the fact that workers here make less money than they used to - in spite of the fact that technological advancement won't be nearly what it could be.

[Xenophage]

I hope we are wrong. I hope Obama's stimulus will mean each American will live in a mansion and have 2 Ferraris in their driveway and never have to work again.

I hope someday I'm exposed to cosmic radiation that gives me superpowers. Oh that gives me a post idea.

[Truth Warrior]

Are we infallible humans?

[diggronpaul]

Could it be that the world really isn't coming to an end? Is it possible that we have so much invested in SHTF, that we want it to happen, and that it will be a blow to our egos if it does not? What if we are stressing ourselves out over this, not living our lives, and nothing bad happens? How many of us freaked out and hunkered down, over Y2K, then when nothing happened, resented the fact that planning and worrying about it so much was a huge waste of our time? Could this be the case today? What if a year or 2 from now we look at our huge stockpiles of ammo and food gathering dust, and feel foolish, wishing we had spent money on something else?
I've not noticed the OP until the last week, but this poster is posting very interesting questions. Is it possible that this poster might wish to disclose some information about themselves?

Now, to your question.....

First, who ever made the statement that the world is coming to an end? I find that entire line of questioning quite odd and extreme. Would you care to explain why you are asking such a question.

Second, people really just need to read more, and focus on more relevant documents. May I suggest the National Intelligence Council's Global Trends 2025 (http://www.dni.gov/nic/NIC_2025_project.html). This is the top Intelligence agency in the world, the intelligence agency of intelligence agencies. If you bother to browse this document, you will find that the USA is still the economic and military leader in the year 2025. I have absolutely no reason to dismiss this agency's assessment.

These incessant fear monger patriot radio personalities are salesmen, selling repeat audience to cheeseball advertisers while ramming fear and paranoia down the throats and up the-other-end of their uninformed listeners.

[pcosmar]

Could it be that the world really isn't coming to an end? Is it possible that we have so much invested in SHTF, that we want it to happen, and that it will be a blow to our egos if it does not? What if we are stressing ourselves out over this, not living our lives, and nothing bad happens? How many of us freaked out and hunkered down, over Y2K, then when nothing happened, resented the fact that planning and worrying about it so much was a huge waste of our time? Could this be the case today? What if a year or 2 from now we look at our huge stockpiles of ammo and food gathering dust, and feel foolish, wishing we had spent money on something else?

Yup . it's possible.
It is also possible that we will all be drinkin' Pink Lemonade and eating Rainbow Stew.

But I won't bet on it.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[dmitchell]

Of course it is possible. And I am glad you are reflective enough to be asking this question. I wish more of the people associated with Lew Rockwell, the Mises Institute, and Peter Schiff were asking themselves "What if we are wrong?" and writing about it. I actually believe in Austrian economics, but if you'll excuse me for saying so, there is way too much group-think and echo chamber and preaching to the choir. And by the way there is a point at which saying you looking at the long term becomes a cop-out. If your prediction doesn't come true, you just keep saying you'll be right "in the long run". It is unfalsifiable, just like when Keynesians say their predictions failed because "we didn't spend enough." I don't believe in faith-based economics.

[Ex Post Facto]

Well if we operate under the BUSH preemptive strike doctrine...then SHTF as soon as we thought it could happen. That means it's already happened, already a threat, and already over with. Everything has already happened or has happened in the past. lol.

I personally think SHTF the moment Obama made a statement "rejecting small government" and "doing nothing is not an option." As the girl says in this video to the United Nations, If you don't know what the solution to the problem is, stop acting like you do, stop making it worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQmz6Rbpnu0

[SWATH]

I will never feel foolish for having stockpiles of ammo and food.

[diggronpaul]

I will never feel foolish for having stockpiles of ammo and food.
It won't do you much good if you can't see what's going on..... and I don't see anyone here yet who does. Getting closer, though, getting closer.

"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our
enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."

-- Joseph Stalin

[LibertyEagle]

It won't do you much good if you can't see what's going on..... and I don't see anyone here yet who does. Getting closer, though, getting closer.


Why not just say what you mean?

[Kludge]

Why not just say what you mean?

For feet to move as one, they must first move as two.

[diggronpaul]

Why not just say what you mean?
Umm, I thought I did.

But if you want more specifics... okay, here goes.

People can't see who is friend or foe.
People blindly follow others when they should be thinking independently
People don't understand the techniques being used upon them, and attack those who reveal these techniques and the operatives who perpetrate them.


If one doesn't know who is perpetrating this harm on them, and one can't recognize the harm even when confronted with it, and can be manipulated by highly skilled evil operatives, then putting a gun in ones hands will most likely result in that person being manipulated to point it at those who might actually help them.

The mob is being manipulated, and the mob is dangerous, and I see little-to no evidence that people here are breaking away from one faction of the mob. And this mob is being manipulated!

Go ahead, light-up this forum on me.... i've seen it all before from Platos Cave dwellers.

[Rael]

I've not noticed the OP until the last week, but this poster is posting very interesting questions. Is it possible that this poster might wish to disclose some information about themselves?


Lol. what would you like to know?

Now, to your question.....


First, who ever made the statement that the world is coming to an end? I find that entire line of questioning quite odd and extreme. Would you care to explain why you are asking such a question.

Second, people really just need to read more, and focus on more relevant documents. May I suggest the National Intelligence Council's Global Trends 2025 (http://www.dni.gov/nic/NIC_2025_project.html). This is the top Intelligence agency in the world, the intelligence agency of intelligence agencies. If you bother to browse this document, you will find that the USA is still the economic and military leader in the year 2025. I have absolutely no reason to dismiss this agency's assessment.

These incessant fear monger patriot radio personalities are salesmen, selling repeat audience to cheeseball advertisers while ramming fear and paranoia down the throats and up the-other-end of their uninformed listeners.


There is a persistent feeling around here that things are going to hell. Take a look at a poll I posted about it: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=177490&highlight=rotary

Only 20% were not worried or too concerned. About 54% are either preparing for the end or seriously worried.

I'm starting to question how impartial we are. The fact is, I think most of us, some openly, and some subconsciously, WANT the SHTF. When the SHFT, it means we can throw aside the nonviolent talk, raise the black flag and begin slitting throats. It means the gauntlet has been thrown down, and we can at last release all our angers and fears by truly FIGHTING BACK. It also would mean that everything we believe is validated when the system falls apart. Perhaps there is fear that, if things don't get bad, it means our economic theories are worthless, or that things will just gradually deteriorate.

There is a story about boiling a frog. If you throw the frog in boiling water, he just jumps out. But if you put him in cool water, and gradually raise the temperature, he won't realize what is happening and simply heat up until he dies.Could it be that we are afraid of having all our rights and values, slowly cooked to death?

[Kludge]

Who, specifically, is manipulating our collective, in particular, for evil purposes?

[Cowlesy]

Yup . it's possible.
It is also possible that we will all be drinkin' Pink Lemonade and eating Rainbow Stew.

But I won't bet on it.

+1 for a plain old great post.

[diggronpaul]

Lol. what would you like to know?
Just generalities, such as why are you conducting these polls and asking the forum these questions, are you a student or professional, what field of study/work... stuff like that.


There is a persistent feeling around here that things are going to hell. Take a look at a poll I posted about it: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=177490&highlight=rotary

Only 20% were not worried or too concerned. About 54% are either preparing for the end or seriously worried.
This is because everyone is listening and following the same (approximately) information sources. If we were actually independently thinking beings our opinions and thoughts would be far more varied. But we're all being manipulated by the same inputs, with little-to-no opposition from our own analytical capabilities.

Your questions are providing great feedback, as the return portion of the control-feedback-loop, to those interested. This feedback is extremely important in order to adjust the inputs appropriate.


Who, specifically, is manipulating our collective, in particular, for evil purposes?
Just about every contemporary thought leader and media personality cited by this forum on a regular basis. It's all part of a dialectic, and you're not operating as an independent thinking human being when you are trapped within this dialectic.

[ihsv]

It's "possible" that things won't "collapse". It's "probable" that it will.

Either way, I'd rather be ready.

[Rael]

Just generalities, such as why are you conducting these polls and asking the forum these questions, are you a student or professional, what field of study/work... stuff like that.



I am going to school part time now working on a bachelors, probably in political science. I also work full time. I ask the questions because I have an intense interest in libertarian ideas. Sometimes I like to get off my soapbox and just ask questions and have dialogue.

[Andrew-Austin]

Let me ask you...

Do you ever think all of the socialists and statists ask if they are wrong? Do those who believe in government ask if they are wrong?

Do the millions of Americans out there who believe the government can save the economy while keeping the welfare/warfare empire alive, ponder what would happen if they were wrong?

I doubt it, they are too afraid, they have too much riding on a ponzi scheme.

[constituent]

what's this "we" shit?

i don't know you from adam.

[Rael]

Let me ask you...

Do you ever think all of the socialists and statists ask if they are wrong? Do those who believe in government ask if they are wrong?

Do the millions of Americans out there who believe the government can save the economy while keeping the welfare/warfare empire alive, ponder what would happen if they were wrong?

I doubt it, they are too afraid, they have too much riding on a ponzi scheme.

I doubt it too. thats the problem...thinking you know everything, and not being able to admit when you are wrong.

[Rael]

what's this "we" shit?

i don't know you from adam.

So why did you post in MY thread?

Bugger off.

[Chosen]

I think Rael is presenting a set of false choices.

The entire original argument made is dependent upon this SHTF argument. As if this indicates revolt. S does not have to H the F to indicate decline. The entirety of Liberty is based upon the principle of Rule of Law, not access to hot pockets.

But directly to the original question, to imply that somehow it is peoples desires which could influence the context of daily perceptions of the world around them is nothing more than a poorly couched attempt to plant seeds of doubt. Let's really give consideration to what you are saying:

RAEL

Could it be that the world really isn't coming to an end? Is it possible that we have so much invested in SHTF, that we want it to happen, and that it will be a blow to our egos if it does not?I don't think you would find anyone who is logically minded who believes in the apocalypse. By your very first opening you have attempted to contextualize the rest of your thesis by smothering it into this category. And greater, you have incorrectly attempted to define the current political situation.

As someone else stated your royal "we" is not an "us."

You are raising doubt about an analysis that others are supposed to have come to. No person I know of considers SHTF as a tangible event. Everyone you talk to would have a subjective definition of what this is. If you were to ask me, I would say that the initial bailout was a conformation of Cosmopolitan law, the stage of decline before a society slips (usually slowly and quietly) into rule BY law. But the other interesting thing about your "questionment" (you aren't really asking anything) is that you are denying that folks have found anything which is indicative of trouble. It is as if you are implying that a current series of tangible events to which folks are reacting, is being perceived incorrectly by these folks. If this is your argument then state this, as it stands your terming this in the form of a question really makes you look cowardly. I have no problems with someone knitting a flag, just don't be afraid to fly it.

So as it stands, you are basically saying folks reactions to many different events are incorrect and have included yourself into the statement by forming a question and invoking the royal we card.

RAEL:

How many of us freaked out and hunkered down, over Y2K, then when nothing happened, resented the fact that planning and worrying about it so much was a huge waste of our time?Of course no need to point out the royal we card here.

I do not think for an instant that you actually believe that what is occurring right now has anything to do with Y2k, again this is a sort of passive-aggressive attempt at placing others concerns into a category of miscalculation. An attempt to try and discredit individuals perceptions as nothing more than hysteria, tho' again you do not have the courage to come out and say this.

Y2k was a hypothetical crisis that came as the result of analyzing a possible flaw in code referencing the date. People didn't really know what would happen when the date reset to 00 and thought that computer software would fail as a result. Many operating systems released patches and tens of thousands of programmers gained jobs repairing code. It was universally thought that some action should be taken. To compare this to our current condition is intentionally deceptive and unintentionally vapid. There was a great amount of direct action which took place. But again, this has nothing to do with the rapid violations of the rule of law, privacy and economic decline plaguing our society and you know this. I am convinced you believe that you are effectively planting some seed of doubt, but you are not self aware enough to realize that you are ineffective and ended up simply exposing your intent.

I think you see the (not just on this forum but nationwide-gun sales, ammo sales, food prep, unrest) rise in Patriot reaction to the slow and sometimes arrogant destruction of liberty as troublesome. I am sure pro-collectivists like yourself never imagined that resistance would rise to the level of action, you most likely believed folks would simply adopt the British method of sending angry letters to newspaper editors and be done with it. Let me take this opportunity to welcome you to America. A land full of people who do not accept the pillow biting demands of authoritarian collectivism.

You are basically some sort of weak, digital Tory.

Know that in the following quote is exactly how I feel about folks like you:


“Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!”
~Sam Adams

[Chosen]

...

[newbitech]

maybe the shit already hit the fan but we are so used to having shit in our face we don't realize it. maybe the ones who don't have shit in their face and do realize that the shit has hit the fan are the ones who are stocking up now before THEY hit the fan.

(edit BTW why don't we figure out how to either unplug the fan, or stop flinging shit, or fling it somewhere else besides the fan?)

Just saying, I am preparing for the worst hoping for the best. Since I live in Florida, we deal with a similar scenario every year. I have been hurricane ready for what 15 years now? One day my town is going to get slammed. Will it be this season? Next season? Who knows. But when it does come, I won't be scurrying to the store to pick up gallons of water, or batteries.

Its even worse during the season when they put the cone over the house. You have basically 3-4 days to make this decision. Just plan for the worse h.ope for the best. No shame in that@!

[Anti Federalist]

Bah, I saw Y2K for the hype it was, and didn't do anything outside of what I normally do.

And keeping a reserve of savings, in both cash and PMs, keeping a supply of food, tools, fuel, backup generator and ammo, among other things, is something I've done for years, regardless of what the scene out my window was.

And by doing that, I've gotten my ass out of a crack on more than one occasion.

Hell, that should be something that everyone should be doing in any case.

[Rael]

Chosen you are making a great deal of assumptions.


But directly to the original question, to imply that somehow it is peoples desires which could influence the context of daily perceptions of the world around them is nothing more than a poorly couched attempt to plant seeds of doubt.

Notice the title was "Could We Be Wrong", not "We Are Wrong". You accuse me of planting seeds of doubt, without any evidence that I have the motivation or the desire to do so.

Next, you spend several paragraphs playing Clinton-esque word games about the definition of "we" and us"




I do not think for an instant that you actually believe that what is occurring right now has anything to do with Y2k, again this is a sort of passive-aggressive attempt at placing others concerns into a category of miscalculation. An attempt to try and discredit individuals perceptions as nothing more than hysteria, tho' again you do not have the courage to come out and say this.

Who am I trying to discredit? What perceptions am I trying to discredit? What is my motivation? Are you making this shit up as you go?

Y2k was a situation where many people were absolutely convinced that total chaos was going to occur. They turned out to be wrong.



I think you see the (not just on this forum but nationwide-gun sales, ammo sales, food prep, unrest) rise in Patriot reaction to the slow and sometimes arrogant destruction of liberty as troublesome. I am sure pro-collectivists like yourself never imagined that resistance would rise to the level of action, you most likely believed folks would simply adopt the British method of sending angry letters to newspaper editors and be done with it. Let me take this opportunity to welcome you to America. A land full of people who do not accept the pillow biting demands of authoritarian collectivism.

You are basically some sort of weak, digital Tory.

Nothing I said suggested collectivism. You are pulling this stuff out your ass. And you come to an erroneous conclusion that I am against preparing, which is absurd as I have devoted significant time and resources arming and preparing myself. My intention was to open a dialogue as to whether it is possible that in general, the widespread idea that chaos is imminent may not be as imminent as we think. You have attempted to twist this into something else entirely.

[pcosmar]

My intention was to open a dialogue as to whether it is possible that in general, the widespread idea that chaos is imminent may not be as imminent as we think. You have attempted to twist this into something else entirely.well if you look at what think tanks and military planers are thinking and preparing for, it is not that far fetched.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=180427
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=180477

[devil21]

The problem is that even if the coming Depression doesnt mean a complete SHTF situation, all too often a despotic ruler is able to emerge from financial ruin and after that bad bad things start to happen. The rise of Hitler is a pretty well known example.

On a personal note, I don't think the gov't is training troops in urban exercises within US cities, building barbed wire containment camps, and passing martial law legislation and presidential orders just for their health or for lack of other work. Besides, your 2 or 3 years timeframe is pretty short term in the big picture. That time will fly by. It's what happens 5 or 10 years down the road that you have to worry about. There is a long "conditioning" period involved in any drastic changes to daily life.

[paulitics]

Chosen you are making a great deal of assumptions.

.


Y2k was a situation where many people were absolutely convinced that total chaos was going to occur. They turned out to be wrong.






My recollection was that it was a media hyped event. It was embedded in pop culture, referenced in T.V shows, movies. I did not know any real folks that sensed shit was going to hit the fan, although I don't doubt some did. Most of these people were paranoid not of Y2K, but that Y2k was a psyops for something more sinister. To me, the whole thing reeked of a media hoax to boost ratings.

This time it is different, while the media was telling us everything was great, everything was going downhill for years. You can't compare the enormity of this against Y2K.

[dirknb@hotmail.com]

I've been studying the NWO for 15 years, but I spent Y2K partying at the top of the Stratosphere Tower in Vegas. Plan for the future, but live for the moment. Fight the good fight, but have fun along the way.

[heavenlyboy34]

My recollection was that it was a media hyped event. It was embedded in pop culture, referenced in T.V shows, movies. I did not know any real folks that sensed shit was going to hit the fan, although I don't doubt some did. Most of these people were paranoid not of Y2K, but that Y2k was a psyops for something more sinister. To me, the whole thing reeked of a media hoax to boost ratings.

This time it is different, while the media was telling us everything was great, everything was going downhill for years. You can't compare the enormity of this against Y2K.

+1 the Y2K scare was just a joke for me. This shit we've got to deal with now...:eek::eek::eek::eek:

[BillyDkid]

Could it be that the world really isn't coming to an end? Is it possible that we have so much invested in SHTF, that we want it to happen, and that it will be a blow to our egos if it does not? What if we are stressing ourselves out over this, not living our lives, and nothing bad happens? How many of us freaked out and hunkered down, over Y2K, then when nothing happened, resented the fact that planning and worrying about it so much was a huge waste of our time? Could this be the case today? What if a year or 2 from now we look at our huge stockpiles of ammo and food gathering dust, and feel foolish, wishing we had spent money on something else?I am certainly not a "survivalist" type - stockpiling for when the SHTF. I doubt that this country will collapse suddenly in a heap, but we are on a continuing downward spiral that has been going on for a long time. Just like with the Soviets - we become progressively top heavy with much of our resources going to sustain the government and associated interests and eventually we just aren't going to be able to do it anymore. We will become a third rate country with no manufacturing and likely China will dominate the world. I would expect, I guess, when we can no longer sustain the social welfare system in the big cities they will likely turn into hell holes of chaos.

The overwhelming feeling I get is that we are going nowhere fast there is no real hope for many of us to have better lives than we have, but that is also a values issue. I think we have discovered that all the Ipods and Iphones and big screen TVs in the world do not fill the emptiness of our lives. Like George Carlin said - we have been bought off by gizmos and gadgets. I see it like this - as long as there is enough for those who own the country and the world to glut themselves and still enough crumbs left over to keep the rest of us happy, we'll muddle along. But once there aren't enough crumbs for most of us - watch out. Ron Paul always says, our empire is going to end one way or the other - either we can pull back and set ourselves right again or it will be forced on us as we go broke. Maybe it will take us going broke before can make ourselves behave sanely - stop throwing away hundreds of billions on such idiocy as "The War on Drugs" and a thousand other things we throw our resources away on.