Monarchy, Oligarchy, Democracy, Const. Republic, Anarchy

[Cowlesy]

Pretty cool clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7M-7LkvcVw


Surprisingly, it was sent to me by a middle-aged guy who was a billow reilly/hannityite.

One person at a time!

[sdczen]

He has a skewed view of what Anarchy truly is. This is the mantra of many who believe that Anarchists are violent, destructive, raping, pillaging crowds of people running amok. This is flat out wrong!

He linked Anarchy and compared it to the Cuban Revolution with Fidel & Che. Thinking they were Anarchists. This is so far off base I can't even believe that someone could believe it. Castro was a Socialist dictator from the start. He gathered up his revolutionaries and threw out all the foreign influence, stole people's land and business and set up his wonderful dictatorship. Anarchy my butt :rolleyes:

Although, the video has some good information :)

[Cowlesy]

He has a skewed view of what Anarchy truly is. This is the mantra of many who believe that Anarchists are violent, destructive, raping, pillaging crowds of people running amok. This is flat out wrong!

He linked Anarchy and compared it to the Cuban Revolution with Fidel & Che. Thinking they were Anarchists. This is so far off base I can't even believe that someone could believe it. Castro was a Socialist dictator from the start. He gathered up his revolutionaries and threw out all the foreign influence, stole people's land and business and set up his wonderful dictatorship. Anarchy my butt :rolleyes:

Although, the video has some good information :)

Yeah I was waiting for the resident anarchists to go ballistic. He makes one good point that people would travel less as they would need to defend their property. Of course I would just hire my own private security force, right? ;)

I'll admit a point of collectivism there. I am more than happy to pay taxes to have a justified local law enforcement, and a national defense to repel the thundering hoardes. Though on a local basis, I'd have the taxes be voluntary.

I think I'd lean more toward Anarchy except that I have a low opinion of our species and its tendencies toward violence and power.

[sdczen]

I think I'd lean more toward Anarchy except that I have a low opinion of our species and its tendencies toward violence and power.

This is the part that scares me the most. Humans do have a tendency to gain more and more power. The problem with government, is it is run by people and those people will always grow their powers. This is not the power over one, but it is the power over all.

All governments will grow and abuse their power. It's the true nature of government. It has to feed itself and it feeds from the people at the point of a gun.

Take for example. If most people were prosperous and the crime rate was very low, we had peace with our foreign neighbors etc... thus, requiring a significantly reduced size of government (because theirs no need anymore). Do you really believe that the government will reduce it's size and scope to change with the times?

Or, is the more plausible answer that they will create situations in foreign lands under the guise of national security and continue to grow the size & scope of government? Will they lay claim to the people's property & wealth on a continual basis just to feed the ever growing governmental beast?

I think the latter is true and has been true for ages.

It is good that we can have this discussion. It's good to make everyone use their noggin' ;)

[Cowlesy]

All governments will grow and abuse their power. It's the true nature of government. It has to feed itself and it feeds from the people at the point of a gun.



I totally agree with you. Even a baby leviathan grows up. As much as I think we have an outstanding Constitution, it's not perfect, and in my opinion it does not limit the power of government enough.

The other problem is, politicians this day also blatantly ignore the Constitution. I think Ron Paul said once that the two weakest arguments on the floor of Congress are Constitutional, and Moral arguments --- oh the irony.

So if people can't exist in the State of Nature peacefully, and all governments grow into a form of despotism, where does it leave us? Jefferson made a good point in the Declaration of Independence when he posited that when a government becomes too despotic (he didn't use that term, but something to that effect), it is the right of the people to dissolve it. Of course this begs another question, if the people dissolve it, with what will they replace it with?

[Xenophage]

Anarchy won't work. Too many people are assholes and idiots, too many people are desiring of power, and too many people are desiring of leaders.

[sdczen]

I totally agree with you. Even a baby leviathan grows up. As much as I think we have an outstanding Constitution, it's not perfect, and in my opinion it does not limit the power of government enough.

The other problem is, politicians this day also blatantly ignore the Constitution. I think Ron Paul said once that the two weakest arguments on the floor of Congress are Constitutional, and Moral arguments --- oh the irony.

So if people can't exist in the State of Nature peacefully, and all governments grow into a form of despotism, where does it leave us? Jefferson made a good point in the Declaration of Independence when he posited that when a government becomes too despotic (he didn't use that term, but something to that effect), it is the right of the people to dissolve it. Of course this begs another question, if the people dissolve it, with what will they replace it with?

I agree, the constitution is a set of constraints on the government. However, they've somehow flipped it into constraints on the people. Don't ask me how that happened, but I think you hit the nail on the head. "Baby Leviathan grows".

If we were to go back to adhering to the Constitution, I believe the only way we could get back there would be to charge the offending Congressman & Senators with treason and have them locked away. At least we'll know that Ron Paul will be the only one left standing. Anyone else that fills those congressional seats will be held to the same standards, or they'll get locked away too.

I believe that the overwhelming majority can live & coexist peacefully. I think that most people believe that government somehow creates security & prosperity.

If the government disappeared today, the only people that would be rioting are the ones that are collecting money from the government. Everyone else would rejoice! :D

[brandon]

This clip is from The John Birch Society's video "Overview of America"

The entire video is only like 30 minutes long and is pretty good. The religious undertones and anti-anarchy stuff pisses me off though.

[sdczen]

Anarchy won't work. Too many people are assholes and idiots, too many people are desiring of power, and too many people are desiring of leaders.

So you are going to place the few assholes desiring power into the government where they can do the most damage? A one-size-fits-all asshole club at the expense of the people.

You do realize that most the people seeking power over others go into government positions? If they didn't have a government to go into they would essentially powerless in their local communities.

[Xenophage]

So you are going to place the few assholes desiring power into the government where they can do the most damage? A one-size-fits-all asshole club at the expense of the people.

You do realize that most the people seeking power over others go into government positions? If they didn't have a government to go into they would essentially powerless in their local communities.

If they didn't have a government they'd form one and enslave you. How hard is that to see?

If you form the government and keep freedom lovers in charge, that's pretty cool. You can also set up a good Constitution to prevent assholes who seek power from getting too much of it. Ever heard: the price of freedom is eternal vigilance? If you want to be free, you've got to meet the assholes head-on and prevent them from engaging in assholey-ness.

The only real, long-term solution is to win the philosophical battle. When a certain critical mass of people in a society know and love freedom, then the assholes will not be a problem.

[heavenlyboy34]

If they didn't have a government they'd form one and enslave you. How hard is that to see?

If you form the government and keep freedom lovers in charge, that's pretty cool. You can also set up a good Constitution to prevent assholes who seek power from getting too much of it. Ever heard: the price of freedom is eternal vigilance? If you want to be free, you've got to meet the assholes head-on and prevent them from engaging in assholey-ness.

The only real, long-term solution is to win the philosophical battle. When a certain critical mass of people in a society know and love freedom, then the assholes will not be a problem.

Who would allow them? If the people actually care about freedom, they'll be well armed against such thing (literally and metaphorically). ;)

[sdczen]

If they didn't have a government they'd form one and enslave you. How hard is that to see?

If you form the government and keep freedom lovers in charge, that's pretty cool. You can also set up a good Constitution to prevent assholes who seek power from getting too much of it. Ever heard: the price of freedom is eternal vigilance? If you want to be free, you've got to meet the assholes head-on and prevent them from engaging in assholey-ness.

The only real, long-term solution is to win the philosophical battle. When a certain critical mass of people in a society know and love freedom, then the assholes will not be a problem.

How hard is it to see that government always grows at the expense of the people? Throughout history this has been the case. It doesn't matter how "Good" the original government was setup. It's what it becomes over time. I'll take my chances without government and I will meet the assholes head-on locally where the other freedom loving individuals can make changes.

[sdczen]

Who would allow them? If the people actually care about freedom, they'll be well armed against such thing (literally and metaphorically). ;)

I second this.... ;)

[Galileo Galilei]

Pretty cool clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7M-7LkvcVw


Surprisingly, it was sent to me by a middle-aged guy who was a billow reilly/hannityite.

One person at a time!

Really good and balanced.

[heavenlyboy34]

I second this.... ;)

Thanx! How did we get to this point-where so many people can't even imagine the possibility of being self-reliant? It's as if the enlightenment never happened for these folks! :eek::confused::(:p

[Xenophage]

How hard is it to see that government always grows at the expense of the people? Throughout history this has been the case. It doesn't matter how "Good" the original government was setup. It's what it becomes over time. I'll take my chances without government and I will meet the assholes head-on locally where the other freedom loving individuals can make changes.

Government always grows - or at least it always HAS grown, this is true. This is also true: government always reflects the prevailing philosophies of a society. Societies, as a collective whole, get what they deserve from their governments.

Under an anarchy, unless everyone was a libertarian, rampant abuses of freedom would be commonplace. Rival gang wars, that's all it amounts to. If you want to live in a state of perpetual fear and war, fine... the closest thing to an anarchy you'll find today is central Africa. Pick a warlord.

Now, if in central Africa everybody was a Rothbardian libertarian, things would be QUITE different.

The question is: will you ever live in a society comprised entirely of Rothbardians?

I don't care what your political set-up is, it ALL BOILS DOWN TO PHILOSOPHY. The people are either respectful and peaceful and mind their own business, or not. They either look for leaders, or they lead themselves. Anarchy doesn't change this. History has shown that people are barely sentient, let alone rational - we're not far removed from cavemen, and even less removed from Genghis Khan. Anarcho-capitalism won't work.

[Xenophage]

Who would allow them? If the people actually care about freedom, they'll be well armed against such thing (literally and metaphorically). ;)

Precisely. If people don't care about freedom, you're fucked, no matter what the situation of the State or Confederate or other arbitrary geo-political label. Freedom has to be defended.

The same thing will destroy an anarcho-capitalist society that destroyed the United States: apathy and philosophical deterioration. Except, in an anarchy, you'll go through a period of gang warfare and mass murder before you end up with a totalitarian regime.

Governments will form no matter what. Freedom-lovers can either shape the government, or let freedom-haters shape it.

[heavenlyboy34]

Precisely. If people don't care about freedom, you're fucked, no matter what the situation of the State or Confederate or other arbitrary geo-political label. Freedom has to be defended.

The same thing will destroy an anarcho-capitalist society that destroyed the United States: apathy and philosophical deterioration. Except, in an anarchy, you'll go through a period of gang warfare and mass murder before you end up with a totalitarian regime.

Governments will form no matter what. Freedom-lovers can either shape the government, or let freedom-haters shape it.

Then why bother trying to convince people to embrace freedom? If you fear the process of becoming civil enough to handle live "sans-archy", you're not well fit for the freedom movement. Those who desire the blessings of liberty must undergo the pains of defending it. Keep your barbaric government to yourself. Freedom is for us civil folks. ;)

[angelatc]

He has a skewed view of what Anarchy truly is. This is the mantra of many who believe that Anarchists are violent, destructive, raping, pillaging crowds of people running amok. This is flat out wrong!

)

In America, the anarchists are the guys dressed in black throwing bricks through windows during left wing protests.

[Paulitician]

JBS propaganda :rolleyes:

[TurtleBurger]

If they didn't have a government they'd form one and enslave you. How hard is that to see?



So worst-case scenario is that we go right back to where we are now. It sounds like it might at least be worth a try.

[heavenlyboy34]

so worst-case scenario is that we go right back to where we are now. It sounds like it might at least be worth a try.

+1776 ;)

[The_Orlonater]

Anarchy won't work. Too many people are assholes and idiots, too many people are desiring of power, and too many people are desiring of leaders.

Don't see the flaw in that statement?

[heavenlyboy34]

Don't see the flaw in that statement?

I'm getting to think that Xeno just lacks the motivation, courage, and will power to be independent of State authority. :(

[sdczen]

In America, the anarchists are the guys dressed in black throwing bricks through windows during left wing protests.

Yes, Unfortunately these "anarchists" dressed in black destroying property are really trying to overthrow the republican form of government and replace it with a Socialist/Communist government. It hardly fits the definition of Anarchy.

[sdczen]

Government always grows - or at least it always HAS grown, this is true. This is also true: government always reflects the prevailing philosophies of a society. Societies, as a collective whole, get what they deserve from their governments.

How do you figure that government reflects prevailing philosophies of society? How is it that our government & presidents can be elected by less than 25% of the eligible voters? What was the prevailing philosophy in Germany in the 30's? The reality of it is a small percentage of bureaucrats can control the whole of government for their own power. They are protected by law. In an Anarchist society, these potential bureaucrats would be swinging from trees.



Under an anarchy, unless everyone was a libertarian, rampant abuses of freedom would be commonplace. Rival gang wars, that's all it amounts to. If you want to live in a state of perpetual fear and war, fine... the closest thing to an anarchy you'll find today is central Africa. Pick a warlord.

This is absurd. Currently there are rampant abuses of freedom. The problem is, the government abuses effect everyone. It's a one-size-fits-all hammer.

The warlords in Africa are the defacto government. They are supported by the UN and other human rights groups and have taken all the money and guns and used them to gain more power. How about we arm the civilians and see how far these warlords make it?



Now, if in central Africa everybody was a Rothbardian libertarian, things would be QUITE different.

The question is: will you ever live in a society comprised entirely of Rothbardians?

I don't care what your political set-up is, it ALL BOILS DOWN TO PHILOSOPHY. The people are either respectful and peaceful and mind their own business, or not. They either look for leaders, or they lead themselves. Anarchy doesn't change this. History has shown that people are barely sentient, let alone rational - we're not far removed from cavemen, and even less removed from Genghis Khan. Anarcho-capitalism won't work.

I believe most people have a very large Libertarian streak. We don't want to be told what to do. We don't seek out to hurt people. We want to keep our earnings and provide for our families. Humans are much better than you give them credit for.

You can have your oppressive government, I'll take my freedom along with my fellow Anarchists. As long as your government doesn't get jealous and come and destroy our freedoms, we'll be just fine ;)

[sdczen]

I'm getting to think that Xeno just lacks the motivation, courage, and will power to be independent of State authority. :(

Ahh yes, Respect my Authoritahh

http://gomeler.com/pic/Articles/I%20Live/Cartman.jpg

[youngbuck]

TKeep your barbaric government to yourself. Freedom is for us civil folks. ;)

:D