Off Topic: Have you heard about the burning saltwater?

[wgadget]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM

[wgadget]

Just think of the ramifications....No more need for Middle East oil...CHEAP, cheap fuel...

[ThePieSwindler]

wait so did he cure cancer too? If that is serious, than this guy basically solved two of the biggest issues facing humanity. I'm still pretty skeptical, but damn. Thats insane.

[dspectre]

Incredible!!

[quickmike]

To know if this works, you would need to know if the flame from the test tube would produce enough useable energy to power the frequency generator that is making the water burn in the first place.

[Jon S]

man if it does work then i'll be lookin for this guy in the obits. the bush gang could never let this happen!! oh no! then they wouldn't be as rich! god forbid.

[ctb619]

This guy actually stole his information from Ron Paul.

[Razmear]

The fundamental question tho is more energy used to create the radio waves than can be generated by the resulting fire or hydrogen?

[slantedview]

It does work, but it outputs less energy than it takes to generate the radio waves. So basically, it's neat, but not significant. There have been a few articles written about the discovery...

[quickmike]

It does work, but it creates outputs less energy than it takes to get going. So basically, it's neat, but not significant. There have been a few articles written about the discovery...

Awesome!!!! Hey I can take some dried logs and light them with a match and get the same effect.

[hard@work]

The idea of a boat with an engine running on this has me cracking up right now.

[Chernitsky]

Great news

[Ninja Homer]

According to this site (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:John_Kanzius_Produces_Hydrogen_from_Salt _Water_Using_Radio_Waves) (which has a lot of info on this invention), Kanzius said on June 6th, 2007:

Since it appears we now have now achieved more than unity, I am going to do an embargo on releasing all further information.

Over unity means that it outputs more energy then you put in.

Here's a good article on it. (http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=74285&GID=zk4SwIKSnGIds9hUfynnp+AmKjjOke5Fp+37lHLYo9Q%3D )

In the article, Scavuzzo says, "the Kanzius invention requires too much energy to be worth celebrating," but keep in mind that he isn't at Penn State where the machine is being tested. Professor Roy, who is actually testing the machine at Penn State says, "This is the biggest discovery in 100 years in water research." So it's Scavuzzo's theory vs. Roy's empirical evidence. Who are you going to believe?

[cac1963]

It does work, but it outputs less energy than it takes to generate the radio waves. So basically, it's neat, but not significant. There have been a few articles written about the discovery...

I'd like to see more clips of the experiment, perhaps showing several test tubes in series placed in the rf zone. Then a clip showing the rf beam aimed at a kiddie pool full of salt water to see what we get.

[Chernitsky]

According to this site (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:John_Kanzius_Produces_Hydrogen_from_Salt _Water_Using_Radio_Waves) (which has a lot of info on this invention), Kanzius said on June 6th, 2007:


Over unity means that it outputs more energy then you put in.

Here's a good article on it. (http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=74285&GID=zk4SwIKSnGIds9hUfynnp+AmKjjOke5Fp+37lHLYo9Q%3D )

In the article, Scavuzzo says, "the Kanzius invention requires too much energy to be worth celebrating," but keep in mind that he isn't at Penn State where the machine is being tested. Professor Roy, who is actually testing the machine at Penn State says, "This is the biggest discovery in 100 years in water research." So it's Scavuzzo's theory vs. Roy's empirical evidence. Who are you going to believe?

He also said "the burning of salt water is nothing more than a new twist on a high school science experiment."

http://smiliesftw.com/x/bowrofl.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

[Chester Copperpot]

To know if this works, you would need to know if the flame from the test tube would produce enough useable energy to power the frequency generator that is making the water burn in the first place.

That is exactly right

[Dustancostine]

One thing that was a little disturbing was the fact that he was willing to sell the technology to raise money to cure cancer.

I hate to say it, but finding an alternative energy to get us off mideast oil might be more important than curing cancer.

[hard@work]

One thing that was a little disturbing was the fact that he was willing to sell the technology to raise money to cure cancer.

I hate to say it, but finding an alternative energy to get us off mideast oil might be more important than curing cancer.

Welp there goes that miracle. How's the new 2009 Prius looking anyways?

[Akus]

I think what's even more incredible is that this is not moved and is still in the Ron Paul discussion section.

Now that's a miracle.

[ctb619]

I think what's even more incredible is that this is not moved and is still in the Ron Paul discussion section.

Now that's a miracle.

the mods will be on top of it any minute now

[trispear]

:rolleyes:

I'm surprised they didn't mention "perpetual motion." The machine that generates waves uses more energy than this reaction gives off.

2nd law of thermodynamics people.

And why would gold or silver be magically attracted to cancer cells specifically? Not saying that isn't possible, but it is unexplained and sketchy at best.

[Akus]

the mods will be on top of it any minute now

Katrina response was more timely:rolleyes:

[michaelwise]

I saw this about 6 months ago. Now if the radio waves could be used to separate the hydrogen from the H2O, be cost effective, and used in hydrogen fuel cells, as opposed to the normal electrolysis method, which is not cost effective, Wow.

[theblatanttruth]

Here's something to think about; lets say we applied this theory to an automobile engine. Lets say that we retro-fitted the frequency generators to focus their beam either onto the electronic fuel injection rails, or, perhaps, just right on top of each cylinder in order to insure proper radiation for the change to take place. Lets say this created an explosion in the cylinder (just like gasoline would) with the (common) use of a standard spark plug for the ignition. Lets say this fire/explosion was as powerful as gasoline and the engine turns as an effect (which, judging by the rapid burn, it looks more active than what gasoline in the same tube would act) then the engine would turn the alternator, just like in a gasoline vehicle, which produced the power to run the generator. EDIT/Insert: The saltwater would be loaded into the fuel tank just as usual. There would also have to be a substantial battery charge in order to build the initial current needed to cold start the engine.

This is highly possible because you can acquire alternators with EXTREMELY high output (to run all these high wattage subwoofer systems, for instance) that would certainly have enough power to run a radio frequency generator (basically the same thing as a radio broadcast tower - the strongest of which run at dozens of thousands of watts; which is capable with high output alternators, and surely, the generator wouldn't require any more current than a standard broadcast tower). The variable in all this is just how many watts does the generating machine itself consume - and if it's too high, can it be re-designed, smaller, more focused (instead of the bulky, huge, surely low efficiency output plates we see in the video) unit that would operate within the output limit of the largest alternator setup any said engine would be able to rotate (also in respect to any power differences burning the saltwater would yield).

I think all this could be easily worked out, and I would love to get involved in something like this. I hold an Electronics Engineering certification and graduated autocad 3d design and engineering school - plus, mechanics are my hobby (ha, ha). I need to send a letter now.

[Perry]

Couple questions. If you stop the radiation does the fire automatically stop? Sure hope so lest we see the entire world explode when the ocean is lit.

[theblatanttruth]

Couple questions. If you stop the radiation does the fire automatically stop? Sure hope so lest we see the entire world explode when the ocean is lit.

I would imagine... once the environment causing the reactions ceases to exist, the reaction would... much like how a CD will stop sparking in the microwave once you turn it off.

[krott5333]

he lives in my town

[theblatanttruth]

:rolleyes:

I'm surprised they didn't mention "perpetual motion." The machine that generates waves uses more energy than this reaction gives off.

2nd law of thermodynamics people.



Well if you think about it one dimensionally... of course the burn being utilized the way in the video will be somewhat comparatively non-efficient; but then again, just how much work would gasoline itself yield if burned in this manner?

You must HARNESS the substance and/or reaction in order to get the most "work" out of it.

For instance utilizing it in the manner I previously explained a few posts back, like gasoline, focused in a chamber, "working" for us rotating an engine which, in-turn, rotates a power generating device (alternator or whatever may be better for this particular application), though belts and pulleys, yielding exponential rotating ratios to spin the alternator pulley at a higher rate of speed than the engine - or anywhere in between, the numbers would certainly have to be worked out for maximum efficiency.

[SAVEamerica]

This is not an energy source. He is converting water to water. The energy is coming from the radio waves, which are breaking the water into hydrogen and oxygen. That burns and it turns into water again.

You 'spend' more energy than you 'earn' from this. It won't solve anything. :(

[EvilEngineer]

The only way I see this being viable is if you are able to use this to use the heat emitted to cause a cascading explosion using a mist of water. Why? It's well known that adding water to super heated fires actually turns the water instantly into fuel for the fire. The goal would have to be to utilize this as basically a spark plug to instantly super heat the water, and at 1500 degrees C, they might be able to achieve it. I still though see the massive amount of energy required to power the RF generator as a problem.

[theblatanttruth]

This is not an energy source. He is converting water to water. The energy is coming from the radio waves, which are breaking the water into hydrogen and oxygen. That burns and it turns into water again.

You 'spend' more energy than you 'earn' from this. It won't solve anything. :(

I'd be really interested in seeing the numbers involved in the operation of the radiation generator and see how they stack up to the output of an engine alternator... hardcore

[dspectre]

:rolleyes:

I'm surprised they didn't mention "perpetual motion." The machine that generates waves uses more energy than this reaction gives off.

2nd law of thermodynamices people.

And why would gold or silver be magically attracted to cancer cells specifically? Not saying that isn't covetous, but it is unexplained and sketchy at best.

**EDIT**

Many People already put good responses, so I find what I stated as superfluous.

[Ninja Homer]

And why would gold or silver be magically attracted to cancer cells specifically? Not saying that isn't possible, but it is unexplained and sketchy at best.

Cancer cells have a negatively charged membrane, so a positively charge gold or silver nanoparticle should be attracted to the cancer cell and be pulled right into it.

Cancer research has been going on for so many years, and so many billions of dollars have been spent on it, yet the rate of people getting cancer continues to rise, and the allopathic treatments basically haven't changed. I applaud people who think outside the box like this and follow through with their experimenting, whether it works or not.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

hmm... if I ever get to the beach, I'm going to take a lighter and try to light the ocean on fire

[trispear]

Well, I will let others speak - I have heard enough perpetual motion claims in my life to be sick of the matter.

IMO, you won't be able to pour salt water into a tank and magically get an energy gain and drive off. It is a net loss of energy with using radio waves.

What I could see interesting in this application is if the procedure to seperate hydrogen and water (which I assume this is doing) is more efficient than electrolysis. Electrolysis is terribly inefficient (I don't know if steam electrolysis is much better).

If this is an improvement over that - it would be good in applications to hook up to solar cells and use get hydrogen to store the energy until you need it - perhaps for a hot water heater or something. As it is right now, batteries are too expensive and environmentally unfriendly to make 100% solar home feasible for the average family.

[Matt]

Actually it's possible that you could extract energy from this system without violating any laws of physics. If the salt in the water acts as a catalyst it's not a closed system.

Here's a similar setup that uses carbon as a catalyst.

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/html/bfr10.htm

[ksuguy]

hmm... if I ever get to the beach, I'm going to take a lighter and try to light the ocean on fire

Great, then the government will have to steal more of my money to pay for a public relations campaign. "Smokey the Tuna says only you can prevent ocean fires."

[Razmear]

I just spent a while reading about Stirling Engines before coming back to this thread.
The solar powered Stirling Engines have a much greater potential to save the world than the flaming salt water, but it is still a cool thing.

First, there is already a cure for cancer developed by a Canadian. The problem, it's cheap and it works.
Here is one article on the method:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10971
and a picture which gives the basics:
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn10971/dn10971-1_550.jpg

Now regarding the 2nd Law. I'm no expert but seeing how the hydrogen in the salt water is also a fuel, generating more power output than what is needed to power the RF generator would not violate the 2nd Law. Same as if you were using RF to burn gasoline or any other combustible.

eb

[Razmear]

Great, then the government will have to steal more of my money to pay for a public relations campaign. "Smokey the Tuna says only you can prevent ocean fires."

Not to mention the TSA will start banning water and walkmans on airplanes :D

eb

edit: for those under 25, the walkman was the predecessor to the Ipod :D

[V-rod]

Ron Paul will invent a car that runs on freedom.

[Man from La Mancha]

This has been discussed before as posted by pyrazole2

http://ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=12132&page=36&highlight=auto

Right...

We did this experiment in High School, it's been around since they discovered microwave coils, and it pops up every year or so (many ways of making a plasma). Here's how we did it about 20 years ago: take a microwave coil from an ordinary microwave, supply it with as many amps as it's rated for (usually about 4-5x what the microwave transformer gives it). Put it back in the microwave, make a hole for introduction of a flame, salt water goes in. Press start. Introduce the flame above the salt water and remove the flame source. Sit back and watch it burn. You've just created an RF plasma which has about 20% conversion efficiency. Those RF waves aren't free, you know, someone had to harness energy to produce electricity....and now you've just turned 20% of that back into heat. You're going the wrong way, boys!

John Kanzius is also claiming that this 'machine' will cure cancer. Um, cancer AND free energy, sure, sure. He could be a little more suble with his insanity. And Rustim Roy, the emeritus professor from Penn State. I heard him talk last year at the ASME conference...he's strings of thought are completely incoherent at this point, it's pretty widely thought that he's mentally incapacitated. Great man, though, did some great stuff in Mat Sc.

There are so many problems with that video, I can't believe you put that forth as evidence. It's so obvious, even you all should realize it.

Good work, but something that's been readily available for 50 years. It's no secret, so what did the big oil companies do again?

.

[ronpaulhawaii]

I just spent a while reading about Stirling Engines before coming back to this thread.
The solar powered Stirling Engines have a much greater potential to save the world than the flaming salt water, but it is still a cool thing.

...
eb

Yes, stirling engines are fantastic. Coleman is currently using the licensed technology to make a powered cooler that'll keep 30 cans of frosty cold bevereges in peak condition in 100deg heat, and only use 25 watts of power. Amazing little devices

m
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjAmdGosvzk (JAWS)

[jmunjr]

To know if this works, you would need to know if the flame from the test tube would produce enough useable energy to power the frequency generator that is making the water burn in the first place.

In other words, you have to put more energy into the gizmo than what it puts out....

[rdenner]

ENERGY IN VERSUS ENERGY OUT!!!

EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested)

This is a horseshit experiment meant to make everyone think that Peak Oil is not going to happen.

Sorry to shit on everyones parade, but peak oil is here and now and is effecting everyone as we speak.

The slow slide down Hubberd's Peak is starting now.

Nothing you guys have talked about has ANYWHERE NEAR the energy density of easy to get easy to Refine OPEC oil.

Sure we could plant all our corn and instead of eating it we'll just burn it in our SUV's(what a great idea). But as were all finding out, PRICES OF FOOD GOES UP!! DUH, how the hell do our best and brightest fall for this insanity??

Nuclear is all built out and ultimately is an energy looser as is the Tar Sands in Canada(as it would take dozens of nuclear reactors to make it efficient enough to replace OPEC oil).

The only choice we as American's have IS TO GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND START LIVING WITHIN OUR MEANS. And that means more than just money, but energy as the two are intimately interlaced.

You don't have an economy without energy and you don't have money without and economy. Until we start living on the energy we derive HERE in this country, then we'll be forced to invade other countries and take their natural resources.

It's much more than just Halliburton profits. Without the massive amounts of imported oil this country brings in every DAY, it will DIE. UNLESS we start to move towards a new, less energy intensive life style.

And don't buy into the BULL CRAP that we can drill our way to independence as that is a bold face lie.

This country CONSUMES 25 MILLION BARRELS A DAY we produce 6.5 MILLION. There is no possible way that we can make up the shortfall domestically PERIOD. At best the ANWAR field will produce 1 million a day. If we drilled EVERYWHERE in the Gulf we might get another 1.5 and maybe 1 or so from the great lakes.

If we tore down every barrier to oil drilling in this country THE BEST we would get is maybe 9.5 million barrels of domestic production and AT BEST it would last 5 to 7 years and take 5 to 7 years to come on line.

The ONLY chance we as a soveriegn country have is to attack this on the demand side. AND THAT IS WHY RON PAUL'S ideas are so important. We MUST DESTROY the primacy of the US dollar which allows us to live way beyond our means. We use the US Dollar to buy oil from overseas which allows the average US Joe to continue in his wasteful ways, instead of trying to transition to something different.

This is WAY beyond buying a Toyota Prius my friends. We are talking about a wholesale rethinking of our entire way of life in the US. The first step is looking at your own life and how you can simplify, the last step is putting Ron Paul in the Whitehouse to clean up the mess that DC has wrought on us all.

Robert

[pyrazole2]

Great, then the government will have to steal more of my money to pay for a public relations campaign. "Smokey the Tuna says only you can prevent ocean fires."

omfg, that is hilarious. Damn, only from someone in oz (I'm originally from ICT, too)!

[trispear]

Now regarding the 2nd Law. I'm no expert but seeing how the hydrogen in the salt water is also a fuel, generating more power output than what is needed to power the RF generator would not violate the 2nd Law. Same as if you were using RF to burn gasoline or any other combustible.

This is Chemistry 101. Gasoline is not the same, it's a hydrocarbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon). It has multiple carbon and hydrogen atoms making up a molecule -- with bonds in between those atoms. Breaking those bonds (subsequently breaking up the molecule into different, often simpler molecules) in an exothermic reaction is what gives off that energy in the form of heat.

Hydrogen is just a pure element. When Hydrogen burns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen#Combustion), the energy doesn't come a destruction of bonds like hydrocarbons (because there are no bonds), but rather it is an exothermic reaction bonding hydrogen to other atoms, such as Oxygen. Thus when you burn hydrogen gas in an engine, water comes out of the tailpipe.

Now, don't you see the absurdity of salt walter (H20 + dissolved NaCL) being an energy gain? As far as I can see, all you are doing is breaking the Hydrogen--Oxygen bonds in the H20 (endothermic reaction - it takes energy) and then burning the hydrogen - just reversing the process.

[Hook]

Here we go again with perpetual motion.
If you could get more energy out of the hydrogen flame than the RF energy in, you could run your RF generator from energy from the flame. Then you could condense the H2O from the flame back into water to put back in the reaction chamber. The whole process would then go round and round, higher and higher energy until you had infinite energy. Then you could make a black hole with the infinite energy and destroy the entire solar system.
Obviously it doesn't work.

[Thom1776]

He announced last month that they have achieved more energy out than in.

This guy is very well-intentioned, but naive.

He said he wants to sell the idea to fund his cancer research.

Why bother with that, anyway? Robert Krupa has modified ordinary spark plugs in such a way that they function as tiny Tesla coils. They create a plasma field in the combustion chamber that burns gasoline almost completely. But even better, they will instantaneously break water down into hydrogen and oxygen and combust them in the chamber and power the engine.

Anyone with basic metal working tools can make these plugs themselves.

This is awesome; Tesla technology applied to our everyday lives in a meaningful way.
It's all over for the oil companies.