The great college hoax

[heavenlyboy34]

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0202/060.html?partner=email


The Great College Hoax
Kathy Kristof, 01.14.09, 06:00 PM EST
Forbes Magazine dated February 02, 2009 Higher education can be a financial disaster. Especially with the return on degrees down and student loan sharks on the prowl.



As steadily as ivy creeps up the walls of its well-groomed campuses, the education industrial complex has cultivated the image of college as a sure-fire path to a life of social and economic privilege.
Joel Kellum says he's living proof that the claim is a lie. A 40-year-old Los Angeles resident, Kellum did everything he was supposed to do to get ahead in life. He worked hard as a high schooler, got into the University of Virginia and graduated with a bachelor's degree in history.

(http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/forbes/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.forbes.com%252Fforbes%252F2 009%252F0202%252F060.html%253Fpartner%253Dyahoobuz z)
Accepted into the California Western School of Law, a private San Diego institution, Kellum couldn't swing the $36,000 in annual tuition with financial aid and part-time work. So he did what friends and professors said was the smart move and took out $60,000 in student loans.
Kellum's law school sweetheart, Jennifer Coultas, did much the same. By the time they graduated in 1995, the couple was $194,000 in debt. They eventually married and each landed a six-figure job. Yet even with Kellum moonlighting, they had to scrounge to come up with $145,000 in loan payments. With interest accruing at up to 12% a year, that whittled away only $21,000 in principal. Their remaining bill: $173,000 and counting.
Kellum and Coultas divorced last year. Each cites their struggle with law school debt as a major source of stress on their marriage. "Two people with this much debt just shouldn't be together," Kellum says.
The two disillusioned attorneys were victims of an unfolding education hoax on the middle class that's just as insidious, and nearly as sweeping, as the housing debacle. The ingredients are strikingly similar, too: Misguided easy-money policies that are encouraging the masses to go into debt; a self-serving establishment trading in half-truths that exaggerate the value of its product; plus a Wall Street money machine dabbling in outright fraud as it foists unaffordable debt on the most vulnerable marks.
College graduates will earn $1 million more than those with only a high school diploma, brags Mercy College radio ads running in the New York area. The $1 million shibboleth is a favorite of college barkers.


Like many good cons, this one contains a kernel of truth. Census figures show that college grads earn an average of $57,500 a year, which is 82% more than the $31,600 high school alumni make. Multiply the $25,900 difference by the 40 years the average person works and, sure enough, it comes to a tad over $1 million.



But anybody who has gotten a passing grade in statistics knows what's wrong with this line of argument. A correlation between B.A.s and incomes is not proof of cause and effect. It may reflect nothing more than the fact that the economy rewards smart people and smart people are likely to go to college. To cite the extreme and obvious example: Bill Gates is rich because he knows how to run a business, not because he matriculated at Harvard. Finishing his degree wouldn't have increased his income.
All the while students have been lulled into thinking of the extra $1 million that will be theirs, they have been forced to disgorge an ever larger fraction of it in pursuit of the degree. While the premium that college grads earn over high schoolers has remained relatively constant over the past five years, the cost of acquiring a degree has risen at twice the rate of inflation, dramatically undermining any value a sheepskin adds.
Offsetting that million-dollar income discrepancy is the $46,700 four-year cost of tuition, fees, books, room and board at a public school and $99,900 at a private one--even after financial aid, scholarships and grants. Add all this to the equation and college grads don't pull even with high school grads in lifetime income until age 33 on average, the College Board says. Even that doesn't include the $125,000 in pay students forgo over four years.
"I call it the million-dollar misunderstanding," says Mark Schneider, vice president of the American Institutes for Research, of the prevailing propaganda.
Not only are college numbers spun. Some are patently spurious, says Richard Sander, a law professor at UCLA. Law schools lure in minority students to improve diversity rankings without disclosing that less than half of African-Americans who enter these programs ever pass the bar. Schools goose employment statistics by temporarily hiring new grads and spotlighting kids who land top-paying jobs, while glossing over far-lower average incomes. The one certainty: The average law grad owes $100,000 in student debt.
"There are a lot of aspects of selling education that are tinged with consumer fraud," Sander says. "There is a definite conspiracy to lead students down a primrose path."
Warped as the numbers are, they don't begin to account for the hidden cost of higher education: financing it. Borrowing has doubled over the past decade, to roughly $85 billion in new student loans in the 2007--08 academic year, bringing total student debt owed to well over half a trillion dollars. The average borrower went $19,200 into debt for a diploma in 2004, a 58% increase after inflation since 1993, according to the Project on Student Debt.

[Truth Warrior]

The Great College Hoax (http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl/great-college-hoax.html)
For most students, college is a financial disaster.

Ya win some, ya lose some. C'est la vie. < shrug > ;) :D

[smithtg]

I think most college grads lose their "dream" because the colleges spoonfeed to them all their "options" (aka worthless degree programs)

Bring colleges back to the basics when it comes to degree offerings (which wouldnt include business degrees) and only offer things like education, law, medicine and engineering. Who gives a crap about ecnomists, art majors etc

[Truth Warrior]

I think most college grads lose their "dream" because the colleges spoonfeed to them all their "options" (aka worthless degree programs)

Bring colleges back to the basics when it comes to degree offerings (which wouldnt include business degrees) and only offer things like education, law, medicine and engineering. Who gives a crap about ecnomists, art majors etc

If you want "job training" just go to a trade school. :rolleyes: Colleges should be about "education" for life.<IMHO> ;)

[apc3161]

I think most college grads lose their "dream" because the colleges spoonfeed to them all their "options" (aka worthless degree programs)

Bring colleges back to the basics when it comes to degree offerings (which wouldnt include business degrees) and only offer things like education, law, medicine and engineering. Who gives a crap about ecnomists, art majors etc

Agreed. But, I would take out economics in your example. Real economics is a very intense quantitative subject. You can't expect them to have all the answers clearly, but it is an inexact subject with so many variables, but it is definitely rigorous.

[heavenlyboy34]

I think most college grads lose their "dream" because the colleges spoonfeed to them all their "options" (aka worthless degree programs)

Bring colleges back to the basics when it comes to degree offerings (which wouldnt include business degrees) and only offer things like education, law, medicine and engineering. Who gives a crap about ecnomists, art majors etc

Art majors, music majors, literature majors, etc. produce most the stuff you use every day-food packaging, soundtracks, books, etc.(duh!:rolleyes:) ;) I agree though-specialty schools in a free market could handle these things better than government-funded universities.:)

[smithtg]

Art majors, music majors, literature majors, etc. produce most the stuff you use every day-food packaging, soundtracks, books, etc.(duh!:rolleyes:) ;) I agree though-specialty schools in a free market could handle these things better than government-funded universities.:)

I guess the point of my post was just what you said above. Specialty schools could exist to 'educate' the people that want to pursue these.

Just go through a large university's major list and you probably cant find a use for half of those majors.

Relating to funding and costs... the original article talked about large costs, especially law school etc.. It seems even the state run schools are charging a ton, let alone the private ones. These places are filled with bearucrats and red tape and if you ever get into the nuts and bolts, most institutions could give a squat about undergraduates because they have their research "prestige" or whattever....so probably in the end, college should cost less than it does now anyway

Should the government fund universities? Im mixed on that question, but if the government(s) quit taking income taxes we would all have more money to pay for things like college,

random rant I know..

[heavenlyboy34]

I guess the point of my post was just what you said above. Specialty schools could exist to 'educate' the people that want to pursue these.

Just go through a large university's major list and you probably cant find a use for half of those majors.

Relating to funding and costs... the original article talked about large costs, especially law school etc.. It seems even the state run schools are charging a ton, let alone the private ones. These places are filled with bearucrats and red tape and if you ever get into the nuts and bolts, most institutions could give a squat about undergraduates because they have their research "prestige" or whattever....so probably in the end, college should cost less than it does now anyway

Should the government fund universities? Im mixed on that question, but if the government(s) quit taking income taxes we would all have more money to pay for things like college,

random rant I know..

On top of that, at least half of the required classes for any given major have little or nothing to do with the major itself. Colleges just throw extra requirements in to extort money from students. :p:mad:

[angelatc]

I think most college grads lose their "dream" because the colleges spoonfeed to them all their "options" (aka worthless degree programs)

Bring colleges back to the basics when it comes to degree offerings (which wouldnt include business degrees) and only offer things like education, law, medicine and engineering. Who gives a crap about ecnomists, art majors etc

Screw you. Business degrees teach you how to make money.

Art majors wait tables.

[heavenlyboy34]

Screw you. Business degrees teach you how to make money.

Art majors wait tables.

Wrong(in most cases)! Many art majors work for advertising firms, photography businesses, print houses, etc. The art majors you speak of are generally either lazy or caught in a bad economy. :p

Guess how many business majors are unemployed right now? ;)
http://www.authspot.com/Journals/Unemployed-With-a-Degree.511305

[bill50]

We need math majors too! ;)

[heavenlyboy34]

We need math majors too! ;)

LOL!! Coincidentally, my dad double majored in math and chemistry. He wound up doing what he learned in the army-electrician work. ;) LOL!! (and my mom paid for most of his tuition after they married :O )

[dannno]

Agreed. But, I would take out economics in your example. Real economics is a very intense quantitative subject. You can't expect them to have all the answers clearly, but it is an inexact subject with so many variables, but it is definitely rigorous.

Ya, seriously. Economics is pretty important, and it is very much in demand.. when jobs are in demand, that is..

[asimplegirl]

Screw you. Business degrees teach you how to make money.

Art majors wait tables.

Almost all of my childhood friends were art majors... one is a sketch artist for law enforcement, on studies ancient art on trips to foreign countries and teaches about the ancients arts in a local high school in conjunction with history.

Now, one is a gay waiter in Baton Rouge who uses meth.. but, thats just one..LOL.

[0zzy]

The article assumes that every kid is stupid enough to pay more than $10,000 a semester for school. I pay $20 per hour, then I'll go to a University. It's much cheaper and, I would say, really does help.

I'll major in Business Administration with a concentration in Entertainment Management and a minor in Radio-Television-Film.

[0zzy]

Almost all of my childhood friends were art majors... one is a sketch artist for law enforcement, on studies ancient art on trips to foreign countries and teaches about the ancients arts in a local high school in conjunction with history.

Now, one is a gay waiter in Baton Rouge who uses meth.. but, thats just one..LOL.

two out of three ain't bad!
isn't that a meatloaf song?

[The_Orlonater]

Can one factor of the equation to high price college education is that it's hard to compete against subsidized government schools?

May I ask, what else makes college so expensive.
What happened?

:confused:

[Josh_LA]

The Great College Hoax (http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl/great-college-hoax.html)
For most students, college is a financial disaster.

Ya win some, ya lose some. C'est la vie. < shrug > ;) :D

No kidding, for most Americans who are financial idiots, life is a disaster.

[M House]

Screw you. Business degrees teach you how to make money.

Art majors wait tables.

I'm not a huge fan of some of the art majors either, but that would still be generalizing. Wish I didn't have music appreciation though. Can play a couple instruments and listen to music already and I have to put up with this shit....why?

[Josh_LA]

Screw you. Business degrees teach you how to make money.

Art majors wait tables.

I wouldn't disagree that business degrees teach you how to make money, or that most art majors are underemployed. But hey, I've taken classes in neither.

[Truth Warrior]

No kidding, for most Americans who are financial idiots, life is a disaster.

The world is run by C students, and it shows. :p :rolleyes:

[constituent]

gotta speak up for the english majors.

[constituent]

The article assumes that every kid is stupid enough to pay more than $10,000 a semester for school. I pay $20 per hour, then I'll go to a University. It's much cheaper and, I would say, really does help.

I'll major in Business Administration with a concentration in Entertainment Management and a minor in Radio-Television-Film.

smart move ozzy, when'd you head out to CA?

[heavenlyboy34]

The world is run by C students, and it shows. :p :rolleyes:

LOL!! ...qft! :(

[Truth Warrior]

LOL!! ...qft! :( An since only ~1/3 have college degrees in the USA, that then must mean C high school students are running the things here. :eek: :D

[schiffstudent]

To receive an education is not a hoax, it is a hoax how ever to believe that you don't need an EDUCATION to compete in the world's job market. I much rather be in the company of someone that is a college graduate than not, the conversations seem to be much more profound compared to someone who's gotten all their education from google. People need to have the basic knowledge to function these days - i.e. Math skills, knowledge of geography and foreign languages. Shit most Americans can't even read a world map and this thread is advocating that education for them is a waste??? Of course a History degree won't give you the return on your investment as a engineering degree but they are still ahead of the schmo that has no degree.

[Truth Warrior]

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Mark Twain (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mark_twain.html)

[heavenlyboy34]

To receive an education is not a hoax, it is a hoax how ever to believe that you don't need an EDUCATION to compete in the world's job market. I much rather be in the company of someone that is a college graduate than not, the conversations seem to be much more profound compared to someone who's gotten all their education from google. People need to have the basic knowledge to function these days - i.e. Math skills, knowledge of geography and foreign languages. Shit most Americans can't even read a world map and this thread is advocating that education for them is a waste??? Of course a History degree won't give you the return on your investment as a engineering degree but they are still ahead of the schmo that has no degree.

In most jobs, the employer wants experience too. Does a degree necessarily mean one is "intelligent" or "knowledgeable"? No. I'm aware of people who conned their way through college without any significant reading skills. Government subsidization of degrees has devalued degrees even further. :p So, to answer your question-yes, "higher education" is a waste for many individuals (not all).

[heavenlyboy34]

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Mark Twain (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mark_twain.html)

Me neither, Mr. Clemens. ;):D

[schiffstudent]

In most jobs, the employer wants experience too. Does a degree necessarily mean one is "intelligent" or "knowledgeable"? No. I'm aware of people who conned their way through college without any significant reading skills. Government subsidization of degrees has devalued degrees even further. :p So, to answer your question-yes, "higher education" is a waste for many individuals (not all).

You'll never begin to get experience unless you have something to offer an employer. Yes, busting your ass to get a higher education in any degree makes you more knowledgeable about the world around us than someone that has never stepped on a campus in his or her life. LOL only in America could you find a thread like this that tries to justify not going to college, even when you have a red carpet opportunity to go (for the mean time anways). You wouldn't find a thread like this in Asia, South America, or most other regions of the world because they know a college education can change lives, something a spoiled American kid would never know.

[Truth Warrior]

Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book download is NOW FREE TO ALL!!!
Right click and "Save Link As"
Click here to begin download
File is 6.75 MB (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf)

[schiffstudent]

Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - E Book download is NOW FREE TO ALL!!!
Right click and "Save Link As"
Click here to begin download
File is 6.75 MB (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf)

Now it's not our fault? That's ok truth warrior, I know there are indeed a lot of ethnocentric people in this country that can't speak any language other than English and can't tell you whats outside their state, let alone the rest of the world.

[heavenlyboy34]

You'll never begin to get experience unless you have something to offer an employer. Yes, busting your ass to get a higher education in any degree makes you more knowledgeable about the world around us than someone that has never stepped on a campus in his or her life. LOL only in America could you find a thread like this that tries to justify not going to college, even when you have a red carpet opportunity to go (for the mean time anways). You wouldn't find a thread like this in Asia, South America, or most other regions of the world because they know a college education can change lives, something a spoiled American kid would never know.

There's knowledge, and there's USEFUL knowledge. You're misrepresenting my position. :p I'm saying that college MAY be useful for some people, but clearly not EVERYONE. Some jobs just don't require a degree (many high paying blue collar jobs, like welders). Plus, the job market is saturated with college grads because of gov'ment subsidization. This makes the degree much less valuable. It sounds like you're looking at this from a "philosophical" standpoint (where knowledge can be ascribed a literal value), but I am looking at this from a realistic standpoint. BIG difference. ;):D

[Truth Warrior]

Now it's not our fault? That's ok truth warrior, I know there are indeed a lot of ethnocentric people in this country that can't speak any language other than English and can't tell you whats outside their state, let alone the rest of the world. Nope, not your fault AT ALL. That today it requires a college degree to only maybe approximate what I learned in high school. :rolleyes:

I'm still amazed by the numbers of college grads I meet that BRAG about not reading even one book since college. :( :( :(

[heavenlyboy34]

Nope, not your fault AT ALL. That today it requires a college degree to only maybe approximate what I learned in high school. :rolleyes:

I'm still amazed by the numbers of college grads I meet that BRAG about not reading even one book since college. :( :( :(

They brag about this? Seriously? :eek::(:(:( (I don't talk to many recent college grads, so I wouldn't know)

[Truth Warrior]

They brag about this? Seriously? :eek::(:(:( (I don't talk to many recent college grads, so I wouldn't know) I didn't mean just recent grads. ;) This phenomenon has been going on for DECADES, with my age peers, also. :(:(:(

:p

[schiffstudent]

There's knowledge, and there's USEFUL knowledge. You're misrepresenting my position. :p I'm saying that college MAY be useful for some people, but clearly not EVERYONE. Some jobs just don't require a degree (many high paying blue collar jobs, like welders). Plus, the job market is saturated with college grads because of gov'ment subsidization. This makes the degree much less valuable. It sounds like you're looking at this from a "philosophical" standpoint (where knowledge can be ascribed a literal value), but I am looking at this from a realistic standpoint. BIG difference. ;):D

I agree that if your doing blue collar jobs then a degree is probably a waste of time, but I guess I've spent too much time abroad and met so many college students that wouldn't dare waste their money on art history or other useless degrees, unlike most of the grads here in the U.S.

[Truth Warrior]

The TOP DOGS of Microsoft, Oracle and Apple DON'T have college degrees. ( HINT HINT ) ;) :)

[heavenlyboy34]

I didn't mean just recent grads. ;) This phenomenon has been going on for DECADES, with my age peers, also. :(:(:(

:p

These ignoramuses are probably regular voters, too. ;):(:p

[Kludge]

No kidding, for most Americans who are financial idiots, life is a disaster.

Worth repeating. You can fix ignorance. You can't fix stupid (yet).

[schiffstudent]

The TOP DOGS of Microsoft, Oracle and Apple DON'T have college degrees. ( HINT HINT ) ;) :)

And they would be who? I know Bill Gates went to Harvard and met his business partner their and without the opportunity he had there to work the computers at Harvard who knows what Microsoft would be today. Steve Jobs went to college only to drop out after one semester, but both of these guys were smart enough to see the value of the technology they were pioneering.

[Truth Warrior]

These ignoramuses are probably regular voters, too. ;):(:p Yep, they NEVER miss a voting opportunity. ;) :p

But at least they am colug gradeates. :D

[heavenlyboy34]

Yep, they NEVER miss a voting opportunity. ;) :p

But at least they am colug gradeates. :D

correction-they IS amung colug gradeates. ;):D

[Truth Warrior]

correction-they IS amung colug gradeates. ;):D You must have just gone further than I did. ;) :D

[Truth Warrior]

And they would be who? I know Bill Gates went to Harvard and met his business partner their and without the opportunity he had there to work the computers at Harvard who knows what Microsoft would be today. Steve Jobs went to college only to drop out after one semester, but both of these guys were smart enough to see the value of the technology they were pioneering. Gates, Ellison and Jobs. ;) BTW, there's many many more in other fields. Tech is MY thing.

[heavenlyboy34]

Gates, Ellison and Jobs. ;) BTW, there's many many more in other fields. Tech is MY thing.

"Twenty percent of the adults in Illinois are functionally illiterate," Susan Fremming, Literacy Grant Monitor of the Secretary of State's Office, said. "That is roughly one out of five," she added." http://www.siue.edu/ALESTLE/library/fall1996/oct.24.96/illiteracy.html

Guess how many there are in the WORLD, and then how many in positions of "authority". ;):eek:

[Truth Warrior]

"Twenty percent of the adults in Illinois are functionally illiterate," Susan Fremming, Literacy Grant Monitor of the Secretary of State's Office, said. "That is roughly one out of five," she added." http://www.siue.edu/ALESTLE/library/fall1996/oct.24.96/illiteracy.html

Guess how many there are in the WORLD, and then how many in positions of "authority". ;):eek: I read an MSM article, back in the 80's I think it was, that claimed that 70% of Americans are functionally illiterate. :eek:

[heavenlyboy34]

I read an MSM article, back in the 80's I think it was, that claimed that 70% of Americans are functionally illiterate. :eek:

From first hand experience, that sounds about accurate. :eek::(:p

[Truth Warrior]

From first hand experience, that sounds about accurate. :eek::(:p Well they were all taught and "skoold" by "Education" majors, what more really needs to be said? < LOL! >

[tangent4ronpaul]

Just a couple of things to add:

If you got straigt A's in HS and score high on your SAT/ACT - you will get bucho financial aid.

If you are are in the bottom 10% of the financial population - you will also get bucho financial aid.

If you live with your parents - that will probably hurt your chances of getting financial aid.

Community Colleges are the best deal and education for the first 2 years of a BS or MS degree.

There is a rule of thumb, that working 8-10 straight years in a field is equivelent to a BS on the pay scale - PROVIDED you work for a private company! If you work for a government agency or a company/corporation that has a lot of government contracts you will NEVER, EVER be paid more than a technicians salary till you get that piece of paper. Thank you Congress!

-t

[danberkeley]

The TOP DOGS of Microsoft, Oracle and Apple DON'T have college degrees. ( HINT HINT ) ;) :)

Neither did Henry Ford. Nor Troy Aikman. Steven Spielberg got rejected twice from the USC film school and ended up attending Long Beach State. Btw, I find it ironic that a Business Major would be unemployed.

[Truth Warrior]

Neither did Henry Ford. Nor Troy Aikman. I knew about Ford, but not about Aikman. How about Edison? :)

[heavenlyboy34]

I knew about Ford, but not about Aikman. How about Edison? :)

I don't see anything about it in his bio (http://www.thomasedison.com/biography.html). ;):D:)

[danberkeley]

I knew about Ford, but not about Aikman. How about Edison? :)

Well, did graduate from college recently, but is was years after he retired from playing football and making millions. I dont know about Edison.

[Truth Warrior]

Well, did graduate from college recently, but is was years after he retired from playing football and making millions. I dont know about Edison. I gave up on the silly paper chase about 35 years ago. I'd a never guessed that you couldn't program a computer without a college diploma. :p Stupid and bogus requirement. My industry has truly gone insane. :(

[user]

The college industrial complex is a disaster. It has caused immense suffering to the human race.

[heavenlyboy34]

The college industrial complex is a disaster. It has caused immense suffering to the human race.

+9999999999!! I wasted almost a decade there when I could've gotten better, more concise instruction privately and cheaply-and just gone to work after that. I wish you guys could've been around to explain the college scam to me in 1999. :(

[Primbs]

I have seen college prices triple over the years, yet the same teachers give the same lectures. You do not get three times better or more effective education with many of these classes.

There are many MBAs and lawyers running around looking for work at the moment.

[user]

+9999999999!! I wasted almost a decade there when I could've gotten better, more concise instruction privately and cheaply-and just gone to work after that. I wish you guys could've been around to explain the college scam to me in 1999. :(

This is just the kind of thing I meant. :( I'm glad you're out of there now at least!

[Anti Federalist]

The "skools" all the way through the system, are doing just what they are supposed to do: create a barely literal "serf" class that can be counted on to follow orders as given.

TW - throw that link out to Gatto's book again please.

I saw it posted in this thread how a majority of grads never pick up a book again. Mission accomplished: after 12, or 16 or 18 years in the education establishment, the love for learning, literacy and knowledge is dead, making a very effective prole, go out, get a job, get a whole shitload of debt, pay your bills, don't ask questions, watch sports, drink beer, die.

Oh yeah, and pick a rifle when we tell you to and go kill a bunch of people in far off lands.

Google: Prussian education system

[user]

The "skools" all the way through the system, are doing just what they are supposed to do: create a barely literal "serf" class that can be counted on to follow orders as given.

TW - throw that link out to Gatto's book again please.

I saw it posted in this thread how a majority of grads never pick up a book again. Mission accomplished: after 12, or 16 or 18 years in the education establishment, the love for learning, literacy and knowledge is dead, making a very effective prole, go out, get a job, get a whole shitload of debt, pay your bills, don't ask questions, watch sports, drink beer, die.

Oh yeah, and pick a rifle when we tell you to and go kill a bunch of people in far off lands.

Google: Prussian education system
Exactly. When will we get away from this?

[The_Orlonater]

Nope, not your fault AT ALL. That today it requires a college degree to only maybe approximate what I learned in high school. :rolleyes:

I'm still amazed by the numbers of college grads I meet that BRAG about not reading even one book since college. :( :( :(

That's funny and sordid.

[The_Orlonater]

So what do I do after 18?

[Anti Federalist]

So what do I do after 18?

Pursue your interests, make money within them.

Unless you need to go to college to do that, don't.

[Anti Federalist]

Exactly. When will we get away from this?

Until there is a massive upheaval in the status quo, never.

I firmly believe the only way to effect that upheaval is through separation.

[Truth Warrior]

That's funny and sordid.


It's not funny AT ALL.<IMHO> :(

"Those that DON'T read have no advantage over those that CAN'T read!"

[Andromeda]

Just a couple of things to add:

If you got straigt A's in HS and score high on your SAT/ACT - you will get bucho financial aid.

If you are are in the bottom 10% of the financial population - you will also get bucho financial aid.

If you live with your parents - that will probably hurt your chances of getting financial aid.

-t

I know I quoted this from a bit back but. . . .

I got straight A's in high school. My parents are upper-middle class (based on income) and I have NEVER been eligible for financial aid. I did well on the SATs and ACTs, graduated in the top 3% of my class, was President of a community service group, in National Honors Society, and had tons of other wonderful achievements. But I was not offered one penny of financial aid from any public or private college. People of ethnic backgrounds (not that I have any problems with them) who graduated from my school who were at the bottom of my class and could barely read and pass the FCAT (biggest joke in the entire world) were given full rides to the colleges that I couldn't attend because mommy and daddy made too much money and because I am not of any particular ethnic background.

The only money I could get from a college was after I spent a year and a half practicing 25 pieces of music on the piano and French Horn for music auditions. Even then, I was only awarded $600 per semester and had to re-audition each year. My music classes alone cost nearly $1200 as semester.

I moved out and have not received financial assistance from my family for about 6 years now. I could not get financial aid even though I was only making about $128,000 a year with two part-time jobs because I was not age 24, pregnant, married, in the military and/or my family had not legally disowned me or died. I found this silly because I was out there, paying rent, earning my keep and was unable to get a higher education because mommy and daddy did not want to pay for my education.

Our education system is completely in shambles as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to take out a student loan because I've seen what can happen to people who do. I didn't want to leave college with a massive debt. On top of that, I never wanted a "free ride" to school to start with: I wanted to earn my education.

Now that I'll be 24 next week, I can finally attend school again without having to get my parent's permission. Yes, I've been trying to attend, but colleges make you get your parents sign permission forms if you're under the age of 24, unmarried, not pregnant, and not in the military. So, even though I did the right thing with my life, didn't mooch off my family, didn't take out a ridiculous amount of loans, showed up every day for work, and was responsible with my life I could not attend school because I didn't have enough money. Whereas a woman who has five children out of wedlock and lives in the slums because she made poor decisions in her life could get a full ride.

If you wanna see an even bigger joke, check out the Accuplacer test I have to take to determine what math class I should be in.

I'm only going through this mess so I can get a degree in education and teach history and economics to young people. Maybe then, I can help change something.

[Truth Warrior]

I know I quoted this from a bit back but. . . .

I got straight A's in high school. My parents are upper-middle class (based on income) and I have NEVER been eligible for financial aid. I did well on the SATs and ACTs, graduated in the top 3% of my class, was President of a community service group, in National Honors Society, and had tons of other wonderful achievements. But I was not offered one penny of financial aid from any public or private college. People of ethnic backgrounds (not that I have any problems with them) who graduated from my school who were at the bottom of my class and could barely read and pass the FCAT (biggest joke in the entire world) were given full rides to the colleges that I couldn't attend because mommy and daddy made too much money and because I am not of any particular ethnic background.

The only money I could get from a college was after I spent a year and a half practicing 25 pieces of music on the piano and French Horn for music auditions. Even then, I was only awarded $600 per semester and had to re-audition each year. My music classes alone cost nearly $1200 as semester.

I moved out and have not received financial assistance from my family for about 6 years now. I could not get financial aid even though I was only making about $128,000 a year with two part-time jobs because I was not age 24, pregnant, married, in the military and/or my family had not legally disowned me or died. I found this silly because I was out there, paying rent, earning my keep and was unable to get a higher education because mommy and daddy did not want to pay for my education.

Our education system is completely in shambles as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to take out a student loan because I've seen what can happen to people who do. I didn't want to leave college with a massive debt. On top of that, I never wanted a "free ride" to school to start with: I wanted to earn my education.

Now that I'll be 24 next week, I can finally attend school again without having to get my parent's permission. Yes, I've been trying to attend, but colleges make you get your parents sign permission forms if you're under the age of 24, unmarried, not pregnant, and not in the military. So, even though I did the right thing with my life, didn't mooch off my family, didn't take out a ridiculous amount of loans, showed up every day for work, and was responsible with my life I could not attend school because I didn't have enough money. Whereas a woman who has five children out of wedlock and lives in the slums because she made poor decisions in her life could get a full ride.

If you wanna see an even bigger joke, check out the Accuplacer test I have to take to determine what math class I should be in.

I'm only going through this mess so I can get a degree in education and teach history and economics to young people. Maybe then, I can help change something.

My family's experiences confirms and validates your's. :(

Thanks! :)

[heavenlyboy34]

Consider yourself lucky to have learned this at such a young age. I was duped and played by the system when I was your age. :p:mad: I hope you help educate other young people about this. Thanks for sharing! :)


I know I quoted this from a bit back but. . . .

I got straight A's in high school. My parents are upper-middle class (based on income) and I have NEVER been eligible for financial aid. I did well on the SATs and ACTs, graduated in the top 3% of my class, was President of a community service group, in National Honors Society, and had tons of other wonderful achievements. But I was not offered one penny of financial aid from any public or private college. People of ethnic backgrounds (not that I have any problems with them) who graduated from my school who were at the bottom of my class and could barely read and pass the FCAT (biggest joke in the entire world) were given full rides to the colleges that I couldn't attend because mommy and daddy made too much money and because I am not of any particular ethnic background.

The only money I could get from a college was after I spent a year and a half practicing 25 pieces of music on the piano and French Horn for music auditions. Even then, I was only awarded $600 per semester and had to re-audition each year. My music classes alone cost nearly $1200 as semester.

I moved out and have not received financial assistance from my family for about 6 years now. I could not get financial aid even though I was only making about $128,000 a year with two part-time jobs because I was not age 24, pregnant, married, in the military and/or my family had not legally disowned me or died. I found this silly because I was out there, paying rent, earning my keep and was unable to get a higher education because mommy and daddy did not want to pay for my education.

Our education system is completely in shambles as far as I'm concerned. I refuse to take out a student loan because I've seen what can happen to people who do. I didn't want to leave college with a massive debt. On top of that, I never wanted a "free ride" to school to start with: I wanted to earn my education.

Now that I'll be 24 next week, I can finally attend school again without having to get my parent's permission. Yes, I've been trying to attend, but colleges make you get your parents sign permission forms if you're under the age of 24, unmarried, not pregnant, and not in the military. So, even though I did the right thing with my life, didn't mooch off my family, didn't take out a ridiculous amount of loans, showed up every day for work, and was responsible with my life I could not attend school because I didn't have enough money. Whereas a woman who has five children out of wedlock and lives in the slums because she made poor decisions in her life could get a full ride.

If you wanna see an even bigger joke, check out the Accuplacer test I have to take to determine what math class I should be in.

I'm only going through this mess so I can get a degree in education and teach history and economics to young people. Maybe then, I can help change something.

[Andromeda]

awe - thanks. ^_^ Loans and debt scare me - period. That's why the education system and our current government's ability to borrow money to pay only the interest on our national debt terrifies me.

People need to learn from history and they need a good background in economics. If it weren't for my history teacher in high school, I probably would have taken those student loans. There should be more teachers like him.

[Truth Warrior]

awe - thanks. ^_^ Loans and debt scare me - period. That's why the education system and our current government's ability to borrow money to pay only the interest on our national debt terrifies me.

People need to learn from history and they need a good background in economics. If it weren't for my history teacher in high school, I probably would have taken those student loans. There should be more teachers like him. As well they should.<IMHO>

What are the other possible viable funding alternatives when there are apparently only inadequate or NO available scholarships for the "A" high school students from the middle class families?

Thanks! :)

[Andromeda]

In this economy it will never happen. . . but, privatize schools. All of them.

If schools were privatized entirely and our representatives could vote on what would be studied as a "core" education: i.e. math. English, Writing, History, Science, etc. I think things would be better.

Students would start at early age thinking of school like business. They would prepare for and take entrance exams to get into high schools and, if they couldn't get in, they would attend a trade school which would probably be sponsored by corporations. Different high schools could focus on their own curriculum as set by private investors. It would cost money to go to school, yes. College would be the same way. There would be set amount of math and English and so on that would be mandatory to be taught, but for most part, the investors and founders of the school would have say in what is taught there.

If a school were to charge too much for their services and parents or college-seeking adults did not see value in what a particular institution was teaching, then that school would lose money. It would operate the same a business would.

Although, like I said, in this economy that will never happen because the government would just print more money to pay off the failing schools' debts.

In a capitalistic economy, it would work wonderfully.

Some people would argue that there would be no financial aid or scholarships available. But that isn't true. Many organizations are willing to give scholarships to students who do well in school. Stepping away from government-controlled schools is the first step toward minimizing the racial divide for scholarships, financial aids, grants, and loans in the first place. Many people complain that racism is an issue in America. Maybe we should step back and see what factors would be contributing to it in our education system: namely scholarships and grants.

It also encourages people to compete for the right to attend those schools. Whereas today many high schoolers take it for granted that they can just go to a community college or their local University and live at home. Maybe college isn't right for those individuals. And, if getting into a school was entirely based upon grades, test scores, community service, and extra-curricular activities THEN there would be merit in the educational system in our country. Because government has to appear to be equal to people from all walks of life and they make it so that Universities have to meet quotas based on sex, race, or any number of things other than the things that really matter, our education system is going down the toilet. Private schools can save our education system.

If people couldn't afford the school, they could always work. When is a school is operated like a business, classes will be made more available because of competition. Even now, online classes are popular because people can fit them in around their work schedules. Six years ago, we couldn't do that.

What our country - not our government - needs to do is look at the countries who are revolutionizing education and producing more intelligent and trained individuals. These would be countries like China and Japan. Maybe if we took a moment to examine systems that are working, we could actually reform our system into something better.

[heavenlyboy34]

As well they should.<IMHO>

What are the other possible viable funding alternatives when there are apparently only inadequate or NO available scholarships for the "A" high school students from the middle class families?

Thanks! :)

I am interested in this myself, if someone has an answer. I had excellent grades in everything except math, so I didn't get any scholarships. :p:(:mad:

[Truth Warrior]

In this economy it will never happen. . . but, privatize schools. All of them.

If schools were privatized entirely and our representatives could vote on what would be studied as a "core" education: i.e. math. English, Writing, History, Science, etc. I think things would be better.

Students would start at early age thinking of school like business. They would prepare for and take entrance exams to get into high schools and, if they couldn't get in, they would attend a trade school which would probably be sponsored by corporations. Different high schools could focus on their own curriculum as set by private investors. It would cost money to go to school, yes. College would be the same way. There would be set amount of math and English and so on that would be mandatory to be taught, but for most part, the investors and founders of the school would have say in what is taught there.

If a school were to charge too much for their services and parents or college-seeking adults did not see value in what a particular institution was teaching, then that school would lose money. It would operate the same a business would.

Although, like I said, in this economy that will never happen because the government would just print more money to pay off the failing schools' debts.

In a capitalistic economy, it would work wonderfully.

Some people would argue that there would be no financial aid or scholarships available. But that isn't true. Many organizations are willing to give scholarships to students who do well in school. Stepping away from government-controlled schools is the first step toward minimizing the racial divide for scholarships, financial aids, grants, and loans in the first place. Many people complain that racism is an issue in America. Maybe we should step back and see what factors would be contributing to it in our education system: namely scholarships and grants.

It also encourages people to compete for the right to attend those schools. Whereas today many high schoolers take it for granted that they can just go to a community college or their local University and live at home. Maybe college isn't right for those individuals. And, if getting into a school was entirely based upon grades, test scores, community service, and extra-curricular activities THEN there would be merit in the educational system in our country. Because government has to appear to be equal to people from all walks of life and they make it so that Universities have to meet quotas based on sex, race, or any number of things other than the things that really matter, our education system is going down the toilet. Private schools can save our education system.

If people couldn't afford the school, they could always work. When is a school is operated like a business, classes will be made more available because of competition. Even now, online classes are popular because people can fit them in around their work schedules. Six years ago, we couldn't do that.

What our country - not our government - needs to do is look at the countries who are revolutionizing education and producing more intelligent and trained individuals. These would be countries like China and Japan. Maybe if we took a moment to examine systems that are working, we could actually reform our system into something better. Major agreement. You are correct.<IMHO> ;)

Thanks! :)

[Andromeda]

The only people who can start changing the way the education system is headed are people with money. In the kind of economy we're in right now, those kinds of people would never put money up for scholarships - they'd be better off saving it.

Privately funded scholarships are the only kinds of financial aid for "good students" that will exist as long as the government has its hands in our school systems and colleges. Government would never provide scholarships to "good students" because that wouldn't be "fair" to everyone else because "good students" may come from rich families or have been exposed to resources "below average" students were not exposed to.

[Jeremy]

I barely pay anything because I go to a public school and have half of it payed with scholarships. :)

[Truth Warrior]

The only people who can start changing the way the education system is headed are people with money. In the kind of economy we're in right now, those kinds of people would never put money up for scholarships - they'd be better off saving it.

Privately funded scholarships are the only kinds of financial aid for "good students" that will exist as long as the government has its hands in our school systems and colleges. Government would never provide scholarships to "good students" because that wouldn't be "fair" to everyone else because "good students" may come from rich families or have been exposed to resources "below average" students were not exposed to. ;) :)


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[heavenlyboy34]

the only people who can start changing the way the education system is headed are people with money. In the kind of economy we're in right now, those kinds of people would never put money up for scholarships - they'd be better off saving it.

Privately funded scholarships are the only kinds of financial aid for "good students" that will exist as long as the government has its hands in our school systems and colleges. Government would never provide scholarships to "good students" because that wouldn't be "fair" to everyone else because "good students" may come from rich families or have been exposed to resources "below average" students were not exposed to.

+999 :d

[user]

I would say the best alternative may be not going to school!

Andromeda, I agree with a lot of what you said, but the school systems in China and Japan are terrible.

[asimplegirl]

I am interested in this myself, if someone has an answer. I had excellent grades in everything except math, so I didn't get any scholarships. :p:(:mad:

Well, from my experience, there is always SOMETHING. My parents, as I have said before, told me that if I wanted to go to college, I had to work hard to get there, and it would not come out of their pocket... That was not a necessity, but a choice on what I wanted to do with MY life.

There is TOPS. There are three different tiers. There are NO income requirements. The three tiers are GPAs, and ACT scores. This determines the amount of money that you can receive. The only reason you would pay this back is if you quit. You can qualify every semester after doing your FAFSA, which by the way will help you determine for which things you will be eligible.
(I was able to receive $4,000 a semester, plus an allowance of $600 a semester to spend on other things.)


There is the Presidential Honors scholarship. This is determined by your ACT score and grades, also. I am unsure of the amount it is, but this can be used for State Universities. I don't even remember signing up for this...but I got it. This one can also be gotten if you don't have great, but decent grades, if there are enough letters of recommendation from upstanding citizens and teachers, etc.


There are Pell Grants. These are determined by income. You do NOT have to be LOW income to receive help... They look at your parents' income, their bills and such and then tell you how much you can get. You can receive up to $2500 a semester if I am not mistaken... I received the full amount, and I think that is about how much I got.

There ARE scholarships that have absolutely NOTHING to do with income or grades, also, that you can search for online, like ones for reading a certain unlikely amount of books in a semester for $500, a $3000 one for the best prom outfit with a date made out of duct tape, etc. I received one for being in lots of community type activities that included tutoring and such. I believe I got $300 for that one.

All state schools have literary rallies and the such. On these days, they release info about testing for scholarships. You go in and you test in any or all areas... I tested in every subject available. What happens is like this:

To determine whether or not you are eligible, they look at your scores and if you score high enough, they will allow you to skip classes up to you level to save you money at their school... it is much like a loss leader at a grocer, it is made to get you into the door...but paired with these others, it worked awesome for me. I did not have to take any English courses except for senior English classes. You can test out in every subject available.

Many people are not aware, but when you sign up for fraternities and sororities, they provide you with scholarships if you are pledged and approved, along with it cutting you rooming costs, and many times your food costs,also, as many people buy groceries and cook in these housing complexes.

Signing up for an on campus job (mine was 3 hours a week working a desk in my dorm) allows for scholarships provided for payment. Mine paid about $700 a semester. Easy money.

If you sign up as a full time student, State schools usually offer certain breaks if you check into it... the one I got was from a section called "University College". If I met the criteria for hours and GPA, they gave me a break of a certain percent.

Also, if you sign up to go in the summer at a state university, there is a HUGE difference in price per semester, and you can still get all the other scholarships and grants at the same time, not to mention the fact that there is a smaller student to professor ratio, and MUCH easier to get better grades, and the semester is shorter. I signed up over and over for a program called "Summer Bridge", which was made for new students, to help introduce them to college life. I went to maybe 5 classes over a two month span, had at most 20 people in one class, AT MOST, and made great grades during that time as it was SO laid back and easy, which brought up my cumulative GPA, which made it easier to slack off in the later semesters if I felt I was burning out.

There are MANY MANY more that I could talk about.

I received all of these mentioned above, and I got left over money sent to me from the State University I went to in the form on a check for almost $3000 EVERY SEMESTER.

As I said, there is always SOMETHING that can be done. We are provided with waay more opportunities than ever before.

[user]

Well, from my experience, there is always SOMETHING. My parents, as I have said before, told me that if I wanted to go to college, I had to work hard to get there, and it would not come out of their pocket... That was not a necessity, but a choice on what I wanted to do with MY life.

There is TOPS. There are three different tiers. There are NO income requirements. The three tiers are GPAs, and ACT scores. This determines the amount of money that you can receive. The only reason you would pay this back is if you quit. You can qualify every semester after doing your FAFSA, which by the way will help you determine for which things you will be eligible.
(I was able to receive $4,000 a semester, plus an allowance of $600 a semester to spend on other things.)


There is the Presidential Honors scholarship. This is determined by your ACT score and grades, also. I am unsure of the amount it is, but this can be used for State Universities. I don't even remember signing up for this...but I got it. This one can also be gotten if you don't have great, but decent grades, if there are enough letters of recommendation from upstanding citizens and teachers, etc.


There are Pell Grants. These are determined by income. You do NOT have to be LOW income to receive help... They look at your parents' income, their bills and such and then tell you how much you can get. You can receive up to $2500 a semester if I am not mistaken... I received the full amount, and I think that is about how much I got.

There ARE scholarships that have absolutely NOTHING to do with income or grades, also, that you can search for online, like ones for reading a certain unlikely amount of books in a semester for $500, a $3000 one for the best prom outfit with a date made out of duct tape, etc. I received one for being in lots of community type activities that included tutoring and such. I believe I got $300 for that one.

All state schools have literary rallies and the such. On these days, they release info about testing for scholarships. You go in and you test in any or all areas... I tested in every subject available. What happens is like this:

To determine whether or not you are eligible, they look at your scores and if you score high enough, they will allow you to skip classes up to you level to save you money at their school... it is much like a loss leader at a grocer, it is made to get you into the door...but paired with these others, it worked awesome for me. I did not have to take any English courses except for senior English classes. You can test out in every subject available.

Many people are not aware, but when you sign up for fraternities and sororities, they provide you with scholarships if you are pledged and approved, along with it cutting you rooming costs, and many times your food costs,also, as many people buy groceries and cook in these housing complexes.

Signing up for an on campus job (mine was 3 hours a week working a desk in my dorm) allows for scholarships provided for payment. Mine paid about $700 a semester. Easy money.

If you sign up as a full time student, State schools usually offer certain breaks if you check into it... the one I got was from a section called "University College". If I met the criteria for hours and GPA, they gave me a break of a certain percent.

Also, if you sign up to go in the summer at a state university, there is a HUGE difference in price per semester, and you can still get all the other scholarships and grants at the same time, not to mention the fact that there is a smaller student to professor ratio, and MUCH easier to get better grades, and the semester is shorter. I signed up over and over for a program called "Summer Bridge", which was made for new students, to help introduce them to college life. I went to maybe 5 classes over a two month span, had at most 20 people in one class, AT MOST, and made great grades during that time as it was SO laid back and easy, which brought up my cumulative GPA, which made it easier to slack off in the later semesters if I felt I was burning out.

There are MANY MANY more that I could talk about.

I received all of these mentioned above, and I got left over money sent to me from the State University I went to in the form on a check for almost $3000 EVERY SEMESTER.

As I said, there is always SOMETHING that can be done. We are provided with waay more opportunities than ever before.

The best part is the first line of your sig...:eek:

[asimplegirl]

Yep..pretty ironic...

I did what I could at 16, though. And, I was going down a path that taught me what I truly wanted, and what I believed. Someone asked for any way that anyone knew of for people to get financial help to college. These are the ones I know of. :)