Jesus Christ- he just dropped Jefferson!

[rational thinker]

Remember that one thread I had about my argument with my political science teacher. Well, today he just announced that we will be skipping Jefferson and his essays on the whole anti federalist vs federalist debate. At least we'll read about Madison, but I'm curious as to why he would get rid of all of Jefferson's readings even though it's a standard in the syllabus for all classes and it's in our book.

lol, I guess the reason I'm really pissed off is because Jefferson is my favorite founding father.

Oh, and we'll be having a class debate between federalists and anti federalists. Any suggestions are welcome.

[Truth Warrior]

Remember that one thread I had about my argument with my political science teacher. Well, today he just announced that we will be skipping Jefferson and his essays on the whole anti federalist vs federalist debate. At least we'll read about Madison, but I'm curious as to why he would get rid of all of Jefferson's readings even though it's a standard in the syllabus for all classes and it's in our book.

lol, I guess the reason I'm really pissed off is because Jefferson is my favorite founding father.

Oh, and we'll be having a class debate between federalists and anti federalists. Any suggestions are welcome.

Index to the Antifederalist Papers
http://www.wepin.com/articles/afp/index.htm (http://www.wepin.com/articles/afp/index.htm)

[Kludge]

Lol... I'd attack the Constitution for failing where the AoC may have prevented rights violations by federal gov't, but Idunno about you :p

[Truth Warrior]

This may explain in part why Jefferson is being "skipped". :mad:


"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debt, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our calling and our creeds...[we will] have no time to think, no means of calling our miss-managers to account but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers... And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for[ another]... till the bulk of society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery... And the fore-horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression." -- Thomas Jefferson

[Conza88]

The Beginning of American Independence (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/137.mp3)
The American Revolution (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/138.mp3)
The Declaration of Independence (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/139.mp3)
Background to the Constitution (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/149.mp3)
The Constitution Revisited (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/150.mp3)
What is the Right Amount of Government? (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/152.mp3)

Robert LeFevre Commentaries. :)

Good place to start. You'll get some good gems and REAL history, truth in there.

[Dark_Horse_Rider]

This may explain in part why Jefferson is being "skipped". :mad:


"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debt, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our calling and our creeds...[we will] have no time to think, no means of calling our miss-managers to account but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers... And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for[ another]... till the bulk of society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery... And the fore-horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression." -- Thomas Jefferson

That about sums it up I'd say.

Amazing that people today (often times politicians) try to discredit these ideas as not practical or relevant to today's times.

[Truth Warrior]

The Beginning of American Independence (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/137.mp3)
The American Revolution (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/138.mp3)
The Declaration of Independence (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/139.mp3)
Background to the Constitution (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/149.mp3)
The Constitution Revisited (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/150.mp3)
What is the Right Amount of Government? (http://mises.org/mp3/lefevre/152.mp3)

Robert LeFevre Commentaries. :)

Good place to start. You'll get some good gems and REAL history, truth in there.

Robert LeFevre? YAAAY! :D

LeFevre Commentaries
http://www.blackcrayon.com/people/lefevre/audio/ (http://www.blackcrayon.com/people/lefevre/audio/)

The Illegality, Immorality, and Violence of All Political Action
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1537946&postcount=109 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1537946&postcount=109)

Thanks! :)

[Truth Warrior]

That about sums it up I'd say.

Amazing that people today (often times politicians) try to discredit these ideas as not practical or relevant to today's times.

T J took the "red pill" too.<IMHO> ;) :)

[werdd]

If he dropped jefferson he will definately be dropping jackson, and then you will study lincoln for the rest of the year.

[mconder]

He is skipping Jefferson because he is the most rational thinker. Dialectical thinkers like your teacher can't stand anything more than a rational thinker.

[rational thinker]

He is skipping Jefferson because he is the most rational thinker. Dialectical thinkers like your teacher can't stand anything more than a rational thinker.

Yes, that is my hunch. But I can't really use that against him since I don't have any real evidence of that. But I find it peculiar that it is a standard mentioned in the syllabus that we go through Jefferson's writings. That's funny....

[rational thinker]

Thank you all for the links. I'M PUMPED TO KICK SOME KEYNESIAN/STATIST ASS!

[heavenlyboy34]

Thank you all for the links. I'M PUMPED TO KICK SOME KEYNESIAN/STATIST ASS!

Please share your victory stories when you're done. :D;):)

[Truth Warrior]

Thank you all for the links. I'M PUMPED TO KICK SOME KEYNESIAN/STATIST ASS! Go get 'em, Tiger. < GRRRRRR! > ;) :D

[georgiaboy]

Dude, you need to insert Jefferson wherever you can for the rest of the term. Whenever your in the Fed/Anti-Fed discussions, throw TJ in there. For papers you write, tests, etc., douse with Jeffersonian influence.

It'll be so much fun!

[M House]

Jefferson was a weird guy. I mean not everything he thought was rational. Just read some of his thoughts on race and sex. He however believed greatly in personal freedoms regardless.....um except did own slaves. He was also pretty unique in his application and principle of religious freedom. He considered his proposal to Virginia on that one of this greatest accomplishments.

[Truth Warrior]

Revolution of 1800

Politics and Public Service

Some observers have regarded Jefferson's election in 1800 as revolutionary. This may be true in a restrained sense of the word, since the change from Federalist leadership to Republican was entirely legal and bloodless. Nevertheless, the changes were profound. The Federalists lost control of both the presidency and the Congress.

By 1800, the American people were ready for a change. Under Washington and Adams, the Federalists had established a strong government. They sometimes failed, however, to honor the principle that the American government must be responsive to the will of the people. They had followed policies that alienated large groups. For example, in 1798 they enacted a tax on houses, land and slaves, affecting every property owner in the country. Jefferson had steadily gathered behind him a great mass of small farmers, shopkeepers and other workers; they asserted themselves in the election of 1800. Jefferson enjoyed extraordinary favor because of his appeal to American idealism. In his inaugural address, the first such speech in the new capital of Washington, D.C., he promised "a wise and frugal government" to preserve order among the inhabitants, but would "leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry, and improvement." Jefferson's mere presence in The White House encouraged democratic behavior. White House guests were encouraged to shake hands with the president, rather than bowing as had been the Federalist practice. Guests at state dinners were seated at round tables, which emphasized a sense of equality. He taught his subordinates to regard themselves merely as trustees of the people. He encouraged agriculture and westward expansion. Believing America to be a haven for the oppressed, he urged a liberal naturalization law.

Federalists feared the worst. Some worried that Jefferson, the great admirer of the French, would set up a guillotine on Capitol Hill.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h470.html (http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h470.html)

[heavenlyboy34]

Jefferson was a weird guy. I mean not everything he thought was rational. Just read some of his thoughts on race and sex. He however believed greatly in personal freedoms regardless.....um except did own slaves. He was also pretty unique in his application and principle of religious freedom. He considered his proposal to Virginia on that one of this greatest accomplishments.

I already explained the "slave" issue in regards to TJ. You oughta read more biographies of him and stop listening to popular mythology. ;)

[M House]

Anyway two favorite founders are Madison and Jefferson. I feel if they were some how teamed up again today president/vp with the rp forums for congress, we'd really be able to hammer some shit out and get the constitution back up to gear. Though they didn't agree on everything, I feel their debates pretty much brought together some of our best principles

[M House]

I already explained the "slave" issue in regards to TJ. You oughta read more biographies of him and stop listening to popular mythology. ;)

Um I have read two of his works for class already.

[heavenlyboy34]

Anti-federalists FTW! ;):D:)


Revolution of 1800

Politics and Public Service

Some observers have regarded Jefferson's election in 1800 as revolutionary. This may be true in a restrained sense of the word, since the change from Federalist leadership to Republican was entirely legal and bloodless. Nevertheless, the changes were profound. The Federalists lost control of both the presidency and the Congress.

By 1800, the American people were ready for a change. Under Washington and Adams, the Federalists had established a strong government. They sometimes failed, however, to honor the principle that the American government must be responsive to the will of the people. They had followed policies that alienated large groups. For example, in 1798 they enacted a tax on houses, land and slaves, affecting every property owner in the country. Jefferson had steadily gathered behind him a great mass of small farmers, shopkeepers and other workers; they asserted themselves in the election of 1800. Jefferson enjoyed extraordinary favor because of his appeal to American idealism. In his inaugural address, the first such speech in the new capital of Washington, D.C., he promised "a wise and frugal government" to preserve order among the inhabitants, but would "leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry, and improvement." Jefferson's mere presence in The White House encouraged democratic behavior. White House guests were encouraged to shake hands with the president, rather than bowing as had been the Federalist practice. Guests at state dinners were seated at round tables, which emphasized a sense of equality. He taught his subordinates to regard themselves merely as trustees of the people. He encouraged agriculture and westward expansion. Believing America to be a haven for the oppressed, he urged a liberal naturalization law.

Federalists feared the worst. Some worried that Jefferson, the great admirer of the French, would set up a guillotine on Capitol Hill.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h470.html (http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h470.html)

[M House]

Seriously, HB I've read TJ's "From the Notes of the State of Virginia" he's quite racist and sexist. Though he still viewed slavery as terrible and the blacks were to be treated as human, he certainly did not see them as equals. He obviously improved his opinion of them over time however and did arrange for his slave's freedom somewhat after he died.

[Truth Warrior]

Seriously, HB I've read TJ's "From the Notes of the State of Virginia" he's quite racist and sexist. Though he still viewed slavery as terrible and the blacks were to be treated as human, he certainly did not see them as equals. He obviously improved his opinion of them over time however and did arrange for his slave's freedom somewhat after he died. Give it a break. That was 200 years ago. America got slavery from the Brits. Who still had it then too.

Save you harangues for TODAY's sexists and racists. :p :rolleyes:

[heavenlyboy34]

Give it a break. That was 200 years ago.

Save you harangues for TODAY's sexists and racists. :p :rolleyes:

+2 He'll need that energy when facing the Obamaphiles. :p;)

[heavenlyboy34]

Seriously, HB I've read TJ's "From the Notes of the State of Virginia" he's quite racist and sexist. Though he still viewed slavery as terrible and the blacks were to be treated as human, he certainly did not see them as equals. He obviously improved his opinion of them over time however and did arrange for his slave's freedom somewhat after he died.

He was a man of his time. If more people were as enlightened as he was, he might have used different words. I'll ask him for you when I meet him. ;)

[M House]

Thomas Paine was much better actually on this issue TW, however many people thing he's an abomination for stating his views on religion. Benjamin Franklin was a strong supporter of educating women though he was obnoxious on other things. They have their pluses and minuses, and I think it's important not to forget that.

[Truth Warrior]

Thomas Paine was much better actually on this issue TW, however many people thing he's an abomination for stating his views on religion. Benjamin Franklin was a strong supporter of educating women though he was obnoxious on other things. They have their pluses and minuses, and I think it's important not to forget that. I'm a fan of Paine too for that and several other reasons. Slavery was a "DEAL BREAKER" issue for getting the UNANIMOUS colonies ( states ) agreement for the D of I, very UNLIKE the CONstitution, BTW.

[dr. hfn]

i want you to kick ass!

[Xenophage]

Jesus Christ just dropped Jefferson?

Was there a cage match?

[heavenlyboy34]

Jesus Christ just dropped Jefferson?

Was there a cage match?

I can imagine the headline-"Roman Deity TKOs American Icon". :eek:

[AutoDas]

I'd read the Kentucky Resolution written by Jefferson as it defends states rights. Madison wrote the Virginia Resolution, which was something they both supported.

[Mesogen]

I'm a fan of Paine too for that and several other reasons. Slavery was a "DEAL BREAKER" issue for getting the UNANIMOUS colonies ( states ) agreement for the D of I, very UNLIKE the CONstitution, BTW.

Do you like Paine's idea for an estate tax to pay for a social security type public retirement fund?

[Truth Warrior]

Do you like Paine's idea for an estate tax to pay for a social security type public retirement fund? No. You lost me on the word "tax".

[Mesogen]

No. You lost me on the word "tax".

Yeah, Thomas Paine was sort of the "progressive" of his time. I'm all for women's rights, animal rights, and freeing the slaves. Those were a few of his proposals along with revolution. He was all against oppressive taxes, but somehow he wanted a (sort of) welfare state. He wanted there to be state jobs for anyone out of work, some sort of funeral allowance for the poor, an income tax on the rich, and an estate tax on the rich (10% or so) that would pay into a government retirement fund. When you turn 21 you get 15 pounds sterling. When you turn 50, you get 10 pounds a year for life.

The Social Security Administration looks to Thomas Paine as their inspiration. I don't think Paine would have gone for the pyramid scheme, though.

http://www.ssa.gov/history/tpaine3.html


In the winter of 1795-96 Thomas Paine wrote his last great pamphlet, "Agrarian Justice." The pamphlet was first published in French in Paris. An English edition was brought out in 1797.

In this pamphlet Paine advocated the creation of a social insurance scheme for the aged and for young people just starting out in life. The benefits were to be paid from a national fund accumulated for this purpose. The fund was to be financed by a 10% tax on inherited property. A tax on inherited property was used due to Paine's general philosophy of property rights. Although he based his social insurance scheme on a line of argument that might sound quaint in the present era, in other respects his plan was quite modern, recognizing the problem of income security for the elderly, and the desirability of creating a national fund for this purpose.

[Truth Warrior]

Yeah, Thomas Paine was sort of the "progressive" of his time. I'm all for women's rights, animal rights, and freeing the slaves. Those were a few of his proposals along with revolution. He was all against oppressive taxes, but somehow he wanted a (sort of) welfare state. He wanted there to be state jobs for anyone out of work, some sort of funeral allowance for the poor, an income tax on the rich, and an estate tax on the rich (10% or so) that would pay into a government retirement fund. When you turn 21 you get 15 pounds sterling. When you turn 50, you get 10 pounds a year for life.

The Social Security Administration looks to Thomas Paine as their inspiration. I don't think Paine would have gone for the pyramid scheme, though.

http://www.ssa.gov/history/tpaine3.html I was referring to the best known of these. ;)

http://www.thomaspaine.org/chron.html (http://www.thomaspaine.org/chron.html)

[Xenophage]

I'd be interested to see where Tom Paine argues for social security. I'm willing to bet a lot of it is misconstrued by socialists, the same way Thomas Jefferson is misconstrued by socialists.

[The_Orlonater]

The AntiFederalist papers should be a blast to read.

[Truth Warrior]

The AntiFederalist papers should be a blast to read. Yep, in hindsight, it's very EASY now to see who the prescient ones were just from the titles.<IMHO> ;)

[Mesogen]

I'd be interested to see where Tom Paine argues for social security. I'm willing to bet a lot of it is misconstrued by socialists, the same way Thomas Jefferson is misconstrued by socialists.
The SSA has Agrarian Justice in there.

The cover spells it out.

http://www.ssa.gov/history/pics/tpaine2.gif

Being wretchedly poor is a product of civilization.

To preserve the benefits of what is called civilized life, and to remedy at the same time the evil which it has produced, ought to considered as one of the first objects of reformed legislation.

Whether that state that is proudly, perhaps erroneously, called civilization, has most promoted or most injured the general happiness of man is a question that may be strongly contested. On one side, the spectator is dazzled by splendid appearances; on the other, he is shocked by extremes of wretchedness; both of which it has erected. The most affluent and the most miserable of the human race are to be found in the countries that are called civilized.

To understand what the state of society ought to be, it is necessary to have some idea of the natural and primitive state of man; such as it is at this day among the Indians of North America. There is not, in that state, any of those spectacles of human misery which poverty and want present to our eyes in all the towns and streets in Europe.

Poverty, therefore, is a thing created by that which is called civilized life. It exists not in the natural state. On the other hand, the natural state is without those advantages which flow from agriculture, arts, science and manufactures.

The life of an Indian is a continual holiday, compared with the poor of Europe; and, on the other hand it appears to be abject when compared to the rich. Civilization, therefore, or that which is so-called, has operated two ways: to make one part of society more affluent, and the other more wretched, than would have been the lot of either in a natural state.

Let's correct this.


In taking the matter upon this ground, the first principle of civilization ought to have been, and ought still to be, that the condition of every person born into the world, after a state of civilization commences, ought not to be worse than if he had been born before that period.

How do we justify taking from someone to give to another?


Every proprietor, therefore, of cultivated lands, owes to the community a ground-rent (for I know of no better term to express the idea) for the land which he holds; and it is from this ground-rent that the fund proposed in this plan is to issue.

Don't they own the land?


There could be no such thing as landed property originally. Man did not make the earth, and, though he had a natural right to occupy it, he had no right to locate as his property in perpetuity any part of it; neither did the Creator of the earth open a land-office, from whence the first title-deeds should issue.
(I actually agree with the above. People have property rights, but some people take them way too far.)

And so what does he propose?


Having thus in a few words, opened the merits of the case, I shall now proceed to the plan I have to propose, which is,

To create a national fund, out of which there shall be paid to every person, when arrived at the age of twenty-one years, the sum of fifteen pounds sterling, as a compensation in part, for the loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property:

And also, the sum of ten pounds per annum, during life, to every person now living, of the age of fifty years, and to all others as they shall arrive at that age.

This is sort of a social security. You make sure that poor elderly people aren't starving in the streets. You also give a youngun a head start in life.

Eh, I think this is kind of dumb (the SSA calls it quaint).

[Xenophage]

The SSA has Agrarian Justice in there.

The cover spells it out.

http://www.ssa.gov/history/pics/tpaine2.gif

Being wretchedly poor is a product of civilization.


Let's correct this.



How do we justify taking from someone to give to another?



Don't they own the land?


(I actually agree with the above. People have property rights, but some people take them way too far.)

And so what does he propose?



This is sort of a social security. You make sure that poor elderly people aren't starving in the streets. You also give a youngun a head start in life.

Eh, I think this is kind of dumb (the SSA calls it quaint).

Thanks for the post! Sure sounds like Tom Paine.

Nobody's perfect?

Oh well.

[amy31416]

Work it in, mi amigo. Of course, in between studying for your next ORGANIC CHEM EXAM.

Don't mind me. I just have some priorities.

[uncloned21]

Index to the Antifederalist Papers


http://www.wepin.com/articles/afp/index.htm

[Truth Warrior]

Index to the Antifederalist Papers


http://www.wepin.com/articles/afp/index.htm Hmmm? Now why does THAT look familiar? :D

[Xenophage]

Work it in, mi amigo. Of course, in between studying for your next ORGANIC CHEM EXAM.

Don't mind me. I just have some priorities.

I'll exam YOU!

[american.swan]

Thank you all for the links. I'M PUMPED TO KICK SOME KEYNESIAN/STATIST ASS!

I suspect you won't change your teachers stubborn mind. So focus your arguments in such a way to change the minds of the other students. Their your real chance. Your success stories should go something like a classmate telling you that the professor is an idiot and your right.

[Zippyjuan]

I thought this was going to be about Bill Clinton dropping his middle name.

[Truth Warrior]

I thought this was going to be about Bill Clinton dropping his middle name. LOL! I like it. Very good.<IMHO> ;) :D